Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
sxf24
Posts: 1000
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:08 pm

Boeing says story is inaccurate and “features distorted information, rehashing old stories and rumors that have long ago been put to rest.” The NY Times also declined Boeing’s invitation to go to CHS and discuss.

https://weareboeingsc.com/new-york-time ... 11354204=1

From speaking to Boeing contacts in SC, there is suspicion this is an IAM advocated story as part of the continued retaliation against the nomination of Nikki Haley to Boeing’s board.
 
NWADTWE16
Posts: 709
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 am

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:30 pm

This was reported in a very well produced documentary 4 years ago by Al Jazeera: Its low paid, non unionized employees to the best of my memory, and a ton of scary things being brushed aside. I have not flown a 787 since, and would not if it was produced in CHS

Link to full Documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvkEpstd9os
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24300
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:38 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Boeing says story is inaccurate and “features distorted information, rehashing old stories and rumors that have long ago been put to rest.” The NY Times also declined Boeing’s invitation to go to CHS and discuss.

https://weareboeingsc.com/new-york-time ... 11354204=1

From speaking to Boeing contacts in SC, there is suspicion this is an IAM advocated story as part of the continued retaliation against the nomination of Nikki Haley to Boeing’s board.

NYT got what it wanted, a lot of clicks and "impressions" from its reader base, one that is easily triggered by a story about an evil corporation ignoring the wails of the peons.

I have at least two relatives whose ability to think critically seems to go into hibernation when they start reading a NYT article.

Yet as time goes by it's clear the amount of effort NYT puts into creating balanced content goes down.

Want evidence? "The NY Times also declined Boeing’s invitation to go to CHS and discuss" says it all.

And I say all this as one of the board's better known lefties.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
LDRA
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:01 am

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:38 pm

Non-event. 787 is safe
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27160
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:38 pm

NWADTWE16 wrote:
This was reported in a very well produced documentary 4 years ago by Al Jazeera: Its low paid, non unionized employees to the best of my memory, and a ton of scary things being brushed aside. I have not flown a 787 since, and would not if it was produced in CHS.


They were unionized by the IAM when they were building parts for the 787 as Vought in 2008. They choose to decertify themselves once Boeing purchased them because they felt they could get a better deal individually. The IAM has been trying to re-certify them ever since without success, so I am guessing the majority of workers still feel they're better off without the IAM than with them (in 2018 the 176-member Flight Line Mechanics group voted to join the IAM).
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10325
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:39 pm

So numerous foreign car companies along with Airbus can build plants in the south in right to work states and make quality products, but Boeing cannot, they can only produce quality products in the north west?
Absolutely a Boeing problem, lets not tarnish the workers.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6313
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:42 pm

phlswaflyer wrote:
910A wrote:
I saw the article also..So we now have the 787 issues which have been ongoing , the Max issues, the AF Tanker issues, perhaps Boeing needs to shake up top management and re-evualute their procedures, goals, standards etc.


The MAX issue should have been the end of the CEO.


It’s not Dennis’ fault IMHO. It’s that slimeball Jim McNerney who was focused on dismantling world class organizations, laying people off, and cutting employee benefits all while lining his own pockets with money.

It’s also Wall Street’s fault for rewarding this behavior with stock price increases.

McSlimeball did a lot of damage to Boeing.

I actually like some stuff that Dennis is doing. I think he inherited a mess.
 
speedbird52
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:59 pm

NWADTWE16 wrote:
This was reported in a very well produced documentary 4 years ago by Al Jazeera: Its low paid, non unionized employees to the best of my memory, and a ton of scary things being brushed aside. I have not flown a 787 since, and would not if it was produced in CHS

Link to full Documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvkEpstd9os

I want to point out the difference in reactions people had to this article and to this documentary
 
acjbbj
Posts: 310
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:07 am

Trk1 wrote:
Boeing is a company in deep trouble. If you do not think there are problems at Charleston just ask a few airlines about what they have found and you will find the NYT article to be spot on. FAA is not what it used to be and also needs a major shake up. When you only have one company in the country making commercial aircraft this drop off is not surprising. We found the same thing as we lost auto manufactures in the US.


And this is why McDonnell-Douglas should have been bailed out and restructured, not allowed to get bought.
Last edited by acjbbj on Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Douglas Aircraft Company
Born: 22 July 1921 (Santa Monica, CA)
Died: 23 May 2006 (Long Beach, CA), age 84 years 10 months 1 day
You will be missed.
 
ual763
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:12 am

Revelation wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Boeing says story is inaccurate and “features distorted information, rehashing old stories and rumors that have long ago been put to rest.” The NY Times also declined Boeing’s invitation to go to CHS and discuss.

https://weareboeingsc.com/new-york-time ... 11354204=1

From speaking to Boeing contacts in SC, there is suspicion this is an IAM advocated story as part of the continued retaliation against the nomination of Nikki Haley to Boeing’s board.

NYT got what it wanted, a lot of clicks and "impressions" from its reader base, one that is easily triggered by a story about an evil corporation ignoring the wails of the peons.

I have at least two relatives whose ability to think critically seems to go into hibernation when they start reading a NYT article.

Yet as time goes by it's clear the amount of effort NYT puts into creating balanced content goes down.

Want evidence? "The NY Times also declined Boeing’s invitation to go to CHS and discuss" says it all.

And I say all this as one of the board's better known lefties.


Exactly! This is what I was alluding to earlier before I got a warning. It’s not a right or left issue. It is a quality of reporting and/or investigating issue. I lean to the right, yet still read newspapers like the Chicago Sun Times. Why? Because the quality of reporting is good. All my point was, just like yours, is that people should be wary of the story, because of the terrible reporting. As you said, they refused to even go down there for themselves.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27160
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:22 am

acjbbj wrote:
This is why McDonnell-Douglas should have been bailed out and restructured.


Boeing's problems grew worse once McD management was installed.
 
9Patch
Posts: 578
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:38 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:31 am

Revelation wrote:
I have at least two relatives whose ability to think critically seems to go into hibernation when they start reading a NYT article.

I have at least two relatives whose ability to think critically seems to go into hibernation when they start watching Faux News.

Sorry to see the NYT going down this road.
Last edited by 9Patch on Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
timh4000
Posts: 321
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:14 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:47 am

I smell a NYT hit piece, which they are famous for. Only to later on retract some of what was in an article if not the entire article. If we are looking for perfection from a factory we are never going to find it. But just how serious are these problems really? It would seem to me that if the Charleston factory or other factories work was that shoddy, it would show up greater in the form of crashed planes, unusable planes, more delays, pilots complaining about the aircraft and how much extra trouble shooting they have to do during flights. Yet these supposedly troubled aircraft are making multiple flights day after day safely and quite often on time or close to it.

The max issue... is separate but I think the NYT is looking for a pile on and also one of their favorite past times, scare the consumer. Flying has been ridiculously safe for over a decade now. If there was this kind of shoddy work I wouldn't see that being the case. Having said this, the Charleston plant MAY need to have some better QA and oversight. But I highly doubt that their issues are as scary as what the NYT article has made it out to be.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4214
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:22 am

The MAX has not been ridiculously safe. And from the left, I agree that NYT has not been reliable.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
A320FlyGuy
Posts: 283
Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 8:31 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:28 am

This isn’t a new issue....I’m surprised it took the NYT this long to latch on to it. Not that I trust Al Jazeera as a source of news, but this report came out several years ago....drug use on the line, employees not trusting their own product and airlines refusing the product...have a look:

https://youtu.be/rvkEpstd9os
My other car is an A320-200
 
A320FlyGuy
Posts: 283
Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 8:31 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:30 am

    acjbbj wrote:
    Trk1 wrote:
    Boeing is a company in deep trouble. If you do not think there are problems at Charleston just ask a few airlines about what they have found and you will find the NYT article to be spot on. FAA is not what it used to be and also needs a major shake up. When you only have one company in the country making commercial aircraft this drop off is not surprising. We found the same thing as we lost auto manufactures in the US.


    And this is why McDonnell-Douglas should have been bailed out and restructured, not allowed to get bought.


    Yeah, because McDonnell Douglas has such a reputation for building a safe aircraft with no issues that would lead to a grounding.... :roll:
    My other car is an A320-200
     
    GSOflyerDL
    Posts: 32
    Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:00 pm

    Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

    Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:44 am

    Cubsrule wrote:
    MrBretz wrote:
    I just read the article. It is unsettling to say the least. There is a link in the article asking anyone knowing of safety violations to confidentiality report them to The NY Times.


    Unsettling, but is there evidence that the issues are different from the Washington plants or any Airbus FAL? There’s some level of these concerning behaviors at virtually any large factory across industries.


    I disagree. Compare the purported Boeing culture to that of Volvo Cars (link below), located a few miles west of the Boeing facility, or Toyota. Communication of flaws in the manufacturing process should be *welcomed*, not shunned.


    Volvo link: https://www.motortrend.com/news/volvo-s ... volvo/amp/
    DL Diamond Medallion 360
     
    acjbbj
    Posts: 310
    Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:06 pm

    Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

    Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:00 am

    A320FlyGuy wrote:
      acjbbj wrote:
      Trk1 wrote:
      Boeing is a company in deep trouble. If you do not think there are problems at Charleston just ask a few airlines about what they have found and you will find the NYT article to be spot on. FAA is not what it used to be and also needs a major shake up. When you only have one company in the country making commercial aircraft this drop off is not surprising. We found the same thing as we lost auto manufactures in the US.


      And this is why McDonnell-Douglas should have been bailed out and restructured, not allowed to get bought.


      Yeah, because McDonnell Douglas has such a reputation for building a safe aircraft with no issues that would lead to a grounding.... :roll:


      Yeah, because they totally couldn't have gotten their act together after a bail-out and developed new narrow-body and wide-body twins without issues...
      Douglas Aircraft Company
      Born: 22 July 1921 (Santa Monica, CA)
      Died: 23 May 2006 (Long Beach, CA), age 84 years 10 months 1 day
      You will be missed.
       
      User avatar
      dennypayne
      Posts: 318
      Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:38 am

      Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

      Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:01 am

      A320FlyGuy wrote:
        acjbbj wrote:
        And this is why McDonnell-Douglas should have been bailed out and restructured, not allowed to get bought.


        Yeah, because McDonnell Douglas has such a reputation for building a safe aircraft with no issues that would lead to a grounding.... :roll:


        If you're trying to tar McDonnell Douglas with the grounding of DC-10's after AA191, you're off base. That was due to airlines following an uncertified maintenance procedure which led to cracks in the engine pylons. Pretty much exactly the opposite of McDonnell Douglas's fault.
        A300/310/319/320/321/332/333/343/380 AN24/28/38/148 ARJ AT6/7 B190
        B717/722/732/3/4/5/7/8/9 741/744/752/753/762/763/764/772/773/788/789
        CR1/2/7/9 D8S D93/4/5 DHC2/3/7/8 D28/38 EMB/EM2/ER3/D/4/E70/75/90
        F50/100 J31 L10 L4T M11/80/87/90 SF3 SU9 TU3/TU5 YK2
         
        sxf24
        Posts: 1000
        Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

        Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

        Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:01 am

        A more balanced article from the CHS newspaper:

        https://www.postandcourier.com/business ... user-share

        One interesting point is that QR is taking deliveries from CHS, a direct contradiction to The NY Times.
         
        Cubsrule
        Posts: 14473
        Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

        Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

        Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:41 am

        GSOflyerDL wrote:
        Cubsrule wrote:
        MrBretz wrote:
        I just read the article. It is unsettling to say the least. There is a link in the article asking anyone knowing of safety violations to confidentiality report them to The NY Times.


        Unsettling, but is there evidence that the issues are different from the Washington plants or any Airbus FAL? There’s some level of these concerning behaviors at virtually any large factory across industries.


        I disagree. Compare the purported Boeing culture to that of Volvo Cars (link below), located a few miles west of the Boeing facility, or Toyota. Communication of flaws in the manufacturing process should be *welcomed*, not shunned.


        Volvo link: https://www.motortrend.com/news/volvo-s ... volvo/amp/


        I’m glad you brought up Toyota because 10 years ago we saw them in similar phenomenon: media attention resulting in scrutiny of alleged problems that were in realty more or less industry-wide.

        This occurred despite the fact that, as you point out, Toyota did and does lots of things right.

        To be clear, I don’t know if the problems in this piece are unique to Boeing or to Charleston. Maybe they are, but no one has yet pointed to evidence of that.
        I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
         
        User avatar
        Veigar
        Posts: 528
        Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:09 pm

        Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

        Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:51 am

        Trk1 wrote:
        Boeing is a company in deep trouble. If you do not think there are problems at Charleston just ask a few airlines about what they have found and you will find the NYT article to be spot on. FAA is not what it used to be and also needs a major shake up. When you only have one company in the country making commercial aircraft this drop off is not surprising. We found the same thing as we lost auto manufactures in the US.



        Sure dude, let me just speed dial my buddy American Airlines and ask them what they think about Boeing.
         
        wjcandee
        Posts: 8952
        Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

        Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

        Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:10 am

        Yeah this is the same old union anti-company crap. Interestingly, the Times at least mentions the 767 tanker quality control problems in the (union) shop in Washington. Same kind of allegations: tools and crap left behind in the aircraft, little QC issues.

        Revelation: Like the Times is above anything anymore. Sad since long ago, back when it had real editors and integrity, it was my Bible...

        I think the math here is simple. It's a non-union shop in a Southern state. Trump visited there for a rally. Therefore, following Times math, it's BAD.
         
        A320FlyGuy
        Posts: 283
        Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 8:31 pm

        Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

        Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:23 am

        dennypayne wrote:
        A320FlyGuy wrote:
          acjbbj wrote:
          And this is why McDonnell-Douglas should have been bailed out and restructured, not allowed to get bought.


          Yeah, because McDonnell Douglas has such a reputation for building a safe aircraft with no issues that would lead to a grounding.... :roll:


          If you're trying to tar McDonnell Douglas with the grounding of DC-10's after AA191, you're off base. That was due to airlines following an uncertified maintenance procedure which led to cracks in the engine pylons. Pretty much exactly the opposite of McDonnell Douglas's fault.


          Not really off base.....

          McDonnell Douglas didn't fix the cargo doors on the DC-10, AA191 was a maintenance crash but Douglas knew about the procedure but did little to speak out against it.

          The MD-11 had horrific stability issues and never lived up to its billing.

          McDac was hardly engineering perfection.

          About the only decent jet was the MD-80 and MD-95.
          My other car is an A320-200
           
          StTim
          Posts: 3712
          Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:40 am

          Complex machines have problems - hold the front page.
           
          User avatar
          qf789
          Moderator
          Posts: 11124
          Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:36 am

          Please stick to the topic and keep the flamebait out of the discussion. Additionally if you want to discuss the 737MAX there are plenty of topics already open, this topic is about 787's produced in Charleston so keep your posts relevant to that.
          Forum Moderator
           
          User avatar
          InnsbruckFlyer
          Posts: 276
          Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:35 pm

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:55 am

          I don't understand how the debris gets into the airplane? The article is unsettling, to say the least. Terrible year for Boeing. 4 months in and 2 crashes plus this? Yikes.
          Last flown aircraft: DH8D OE-LGN < DH8D OE-LGI < E195 OE-LWE < DH8D OE-LGI < A320 D-AIUR < A320 D-AIZM < B738 PH-HZJ < B737 PH-XRD < B772 N766AN < B738 N855NN < B788 N45905 < A319 N808UA < A320 N482UA < B752 N19117
           
          User avatar
          TheFlyingDisk
          Posts: 2105
          Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:14 am

          InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
          I don't understand how the debris gets into the airplane? The article is unsettling, to say the least. Terrible year for Boeing. 4 months in and 2 crashes plus this? Yikes.


          Those debris are par the course, screws may be brought into the panel for installation than forgotten after they realize they taken more than necessary. Tools may have been misplaced etc etc.

          All planemakers face FOD issues, it's just that many planemakers aren't in the news cycle the way Boeing is at the moment.
          I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
           
          fjhc
          Posts: 63
          Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:34 pm

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:16 am

          ElroyJetson wrote:
          Union shakedown published by the fake news NYT. Boeing has built commercial jets for 60 years. The record speaks for itself. Ditto Airbus. Neither manufacturer makes unsafe or poorly built aircraft.


          The two crashed 737 MAX-8s might point otherwise...
           
          User avatar
          Revelation
          Posts: 24300
          Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:33 am

          Cubsrule wrote:
          I’m glad you brought up Toyota because 10 years ago we saw them in similar phenomenon: media attention resulting in scrutiny of alleged problems that were in realty more or less industry-wide.

          This occurred despite the fact that, as you point out, Toyota did and does lots of things right.

          To be clear, I don’t know if the problems in this piece are unique to Boeing or to Charleston. Maybe they are, but no one has yet pointed to evidence of that.

          Are you referring to the unintended acceleration problem?
          Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
          The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
          Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
          The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
           
          ltbewr
          Posts: 15199
          Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:55 am

          I wonder if some of the reasons for the alleged problems with CHM 787's has to do with the extensive use of outside suppliers of major parts and sections, more extensively that with past models. We all can recall the serious problems of the assembly of the fuselage of early builds at CHM . Part may be workers thinking they should be doing the whole plane and quality issues with shipped components that delay production, so in turn pressure to 'make it fit', from supervisors, and in turn cutting corners to save time including worker safety and procedures.

          Clearly there is a serious culture problem at Boeing from the CEO, through its engineers to the lowest assembly workers that needs to be resolved. Boeing is one of the biggest companies in America and if they put out shoddy product, it will hurt our country, much like the crappy work and engineering of cars in the UK and USA led to losing to the Japanese.
           
          OldProp
          Posts: 7
          Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:06 pm

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:55 pm

          I remember several years ago GE was accused by a few Madisonville plant employees of shipping known non-conformance parts for years to customers or assembly. I don't believe there were any engine problems because of it.

          https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... gine-parts

          http://www.wave3.com/story/5772926/two- ... n-lawsuit/
           
          blueflyer
          Posts: 4352
          Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:52 pm

          Revelation wrote:
          Want evidence? "The NY Times also declined Boeing’s invitation to go to CHS and discuss" says it all.

          Most print news organizations would have declined the invitation. What would the NYT have seen? Floors scrubbed so clean they shone like mirrors? Aircraft inspected five times by five different teams instead of the usual one inspection? An email inbox with 5 emails a day every day for a week reminding all managers the NYT is coming and they better make sure everything is spotless?

          A television station might have made the trip, but mostly to shoot b-roll inside the factory.

          Irrespective of the merits of the story, a planned site visit would have been rather pointless.

          Clearly flying a Boeing aircraft is still far safer than driving oneself to the airport... It is also undeniable the last time the FAA concluded a significant investigation of Boeing with a fine, they did not announce the results of their investigations, and it took a Freedom of Information request two years later for the public to find out. So at this stage, we have an article from the NYT, a denial from Boeing, a handful of investigations from the FAA, some closed some ongoing, and several former employees with claims yet to be finalized against their former employer.

          I'll be interested to see how the former employees' claims at the National Labor Relations Board are resolved. The NLRB isn't very much pro worlders despite its name. Obviously the board isn't going to investigate the allegations of a shoddy safety culture, however if (bold that "if") the board finds the former employees were retaliated against, the question would be why?
           
          cat3appr50
          Posts: 185
          Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:44 pm

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:37 pm

          Before any American made aircraft goes into commercial operation, the US FAA needs to approve. Every aircraft development activity from initial design through final engineering and detail drawings to the construction/production in any manufacturing or assembly Plant, to first flights and check out and flight testing, implementation of subsequent revisions and changes, etc. and then commercial operation needs to be reviewed and approved by the FAA.

          Throughout that entire process from inception to ready for commercial operation the FAA is tasked, by US Law, with the unquestioned responsibility and accountability (and the multi $Billions of US taxpayer revenue to support the FAA) to “regulate” the aircraft industry, in any form or function. And that absolutely includes the “regulatory oversight” of manufacturing of any aircraft in South Carolina, Washington State, or any other State.

          That being said, I (as an American) would have expected the FAA to have proactively discovered these alleged issues and acted upon them aggressively, along with the public communication regarding same. I’m not saying that the NYT article is not accurate/is accurate, just that the primary regulatory/oversight responsibility in all of this is tasked to the FAA…to "regulate (and not abdicate a frightening amount of their “regulatory” responsibilities to others as is being discovered in the MAX8 scenario). How many FAA “regulators” are physically in the SC and WA production facilities daily, performing random inspections, documenting critical data, working with Plant Management to appropriately issue a production line stop order as needed for some of the things alleged/noted in the NYT article until the issues were reviewed and a manufacturing plan of action generated to make sure it didn’t happen again?

          Why did it apparently take whistle blowers and a NYT (and other news outlets) article, assuming the allegations are accurate, to bring these issues to light? It is right now, and was then, the unquestionable primary responsibility and accountability of the FAA to proactively discover, communicate, and aggressively resolve those alleged issues…to actually and proactively "regulate."
           
          MrBretz
          Posts: 548
          Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:33 pm

          The moral of the story is you have to read things critically. I think the article might make Boeing focus a little more. That’s not a bad thing. In general, the NYTimes does a good, far from perfect, job. Complex human undertakings aren’t binary.
           
          MrBretz
          Posts: 548
          Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:24 pm

          Like I said, human endeavors are not 0 or 1. They hover in between. It’s good the press is watching. It’s good there are whistle blowers. Boeing will now move closer to 1 just like Toyota did.
           
          User avatar
          JetBuddy
          Posts: 2567
          Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:08 pm

          At first glance, I thought this was a jurassic thread.

          I remember reading about the issues at Charleston years ago. At the time opinion was split as well, if this was actually warranted criticism or just minor stuff that goes on at every production plant.

          Am I right about that? I'm certain this stuff was brought up years ago.
           
          smartplane
          Posts: 1506
          Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:06 pm

          cat3appr50 wrote:
          Before any American made aircraft goes into commercial operation, the US FAA needs to approve. Every aircraft development activity from initial design through final engineering and detail drawings to the construction/production in any manufacturing or assembly Plant, to first flights and check out and flight testing, implementation of subsequent revisions and changes, etc. and then commercial operation needs to be reviewed and approved by the FAA.

          Throughout that entire process from inception to ready for commercial operation the FAA is tasked, by US Law, with the unquestioned responsibility and accountability (and the multi $Billions of US taxpayer revenue to support the FAA) to “regulate” the aircraft industry, in any form or function. And that absolutely includes the “regulatory oversight” of manufacturing of any aircraft in South Carolina, Washington State, or any other State.

          The theory is great. The reality is the FAA sub-contracts much of the work to FAA designated personnel on the payroll of the OEM.

          More pertinent is the degree of training and support provided by the FAA, direct FAA oversight, instances of whistle blowing, staff turnover (of FAA designated staff - promote or fire the troublesome ones?), audits and peer reviews (including publishing findings, remedial steps taken and penalties imposed), which isn't disclosed.
           
          Gulfstream500
          Posts: 476
          Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:30 am

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:40 pm

          I believe that it should be made necessary to have MULTIPLE different agencies (including the F.A.A., NTSB, etc.) audit the production process and certification of aircraft. Not just Boeing, but any aircraft made in the US (or any aircraft used by US operators, if possible). Just one audit can save lives - and no more of that “self certification” junk.
          So... when will the Northwest DC-9s be retired?
           
          timh4000
          Posts: 321
          Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:14 pm

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:35 pm

          frmrCapCadet wrote:
          The MAX has not been ridiculously safe. And from the left, I agree that NYT has not been reliable.


          Well, not the max but the aviation industry as a whole.
           
          User avatar
          Spacepope
          Posts: 4689
          Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:04 pm

          WesternDC6B wrote:
          I’m sure if the plant were under IAM control, nothing at all would be wrong. /sarc


          Was thinking something similar. Will be interesting to how this plays out on the labor side.
          The last of the famous international playboys
           
          32andBelow
          Posts: 4936
          Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:54 pm

          Trk1 wrote:
          Boeing is a company in deep trouble. If you do not think there are problems at Charleston just ask a few airlines about what they have found and you will find the NYT article to be spot on. FAA is not what it used to be and also needs a major shake up. When you only have one company in the country making commercial aircraft this drop off is not surprising. We found the same thing as we lost auto manufactures in the US.

          Don’t worry Mitch McConnell’s wife will fix it.
           
          User avatar
          lightsaber
          Moderator
          Posts: 19976
          Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:31 pm

          Gulfstream500 wrote:
          I believe that it should be made necessary to have MULTIPLE different agencies (including the F.A.A., NTSB, etc.) audit the production process and certification of aircraft. Not just Boeing, but any aircraft made in the US (or any aircraft used by US operators, if possible). Just one audit can save lives - and no more of that “self certification” junk.

          Do you know how much the certification process already costs? I'm sure some would like that as it would end US aircraft development.

          An error was made. But look how safe aviation is. If automobiles were as safe as the MAX has been, I could understand everyone getting riled up.

          The US safety process made aviation safe. The MAX will soon be back flying again and will be safe.

          Too many audits make flying less safe as audits are paperwork. The process is already miserable.

          Why US airlines? They maintained the aircraft properly. The Lion Air aircraft had issues. Now, the MAX needs to be made better. No one doubts that.

          But by these standards in 1989 the A320 would have been permanently grounded.

          Lightsaber
          Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
           
          User avatar
          TheFlyingDisk
          Posts: 2105
          Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:37 pm

          blueflyer wrote:
          Revelation wrote:
          Want evidence? "The NY Times also declined Boeing’s invitation to go to CHS and discuss" says it all.

          Most print news organizations would have declined the invitation. What would the NYT have seen? Floors scrubbed so clean they shone like mirrors? Aircraft inspected five times by five different teams instead of the usual one inspection? An email inbox with 5 emails a day every day for a week reminding all managers the NYT is coming and they better make sure everything is spotless?

          A television station might have made the trip, but mostly to shoot b-roll inside the factory.

          Irrespective of the merits of the story, a planned site visit would have been rather pointless.


          A visit to the plant, and the opportunity to speak with the people involved would provide a counterpoint. That would make the article more balanced, and more valid.
          I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
           
          CitrusCritter
          Posts: 801
          Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 10:36 am

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:27 pm

          TheFlyingDisk wrote:
          blueflyer wrote:
          Revelation wrote:
          Want evidence? "The NY Times also declined Boeing’s invitation to go to CHS and discuss" says it all.

          Most print news organizations would have declined the invitation. What would the NYT have seen? Floors scrubbed so clean they shone like mirrors? Aircraft inspected five times by five different teams instead of the usual one inspection? An email inbox with 5 emails a day every day for a week reminding all managers the NYT is coming and they better make sure everything is spotless?

          A television station might have made the trip, but mostly to shoot b-roll inside the factory.

          Irrespective of the merits of the story, a planned site visit would have been rather pointless.


          A visit to the plant, and the opportunity to speak with the people involved would provide a counterpoint. That would make the article more balanced, and more valid.


          That would be pointless. No manager or employee they'd be allowed to speak with would say anything other than what Boeing's corporate representatives had already said in the piece. This argument is nothing but pro-management nonsense like much of this thread.

          Does this article smack of being placed by the union? Yes, it does. But the point raised in the paper - that managers were not allowed to hire unionized employees from Everett to go to Charleston is a valid point. It doesn't suggest that only union employees are capable of high standards, but it does accurately support the notion that there was not a sufficiently knowledgeable and trained workforce in Charleston. They should have moved experienced employees to Charleston to ensure that new employees were being well trained and indoctrinated into a culture of safety and excellent work.
          - CitrusCritter
          Long Live the 717!
          XNA
           
          User avatar
          airportugal310
          Posts: 3658
          Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:51 pm

          CitrusCritter wrote:
          TheFlyingDisk wrote:
          blueflyer wrote:
          They should have moved experienced employees to Charleston to ensure that new employees were being well trained and indoctrinated into a culture of safety and excellent work.


          And "indoctrinated" as well into the virtues of joining a union and all that comes with it?

          No doubt.
          “They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
           
          CitrusCritter
          Posts: 801
          Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 10:36 am

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:30 pm

          airportugal310 wrote:
          CitrusCritter wrote:
          TheFlyingDisk wrote:


          And "indoctrinated" as well into the virtues of joining a union and all that comes with it?

          No doubt.


          Given how predisposed South Carolina and its residents are to rejecting unionism, I doubt that is much of a concern. Regardless, it really says something that Boeing as well as many posters on this board think anti-unionism is more important than building a culture of safety and quality workmanship. That is best done by bringing in high-quality workers to serve as lead workers and trainers. If the downside is that new employees are exposed to the union, so be it -- that is going to happen regardless. As a passenger, it appears to me that Boeing has elected to put profitability ahead of safety, and this is an example of that corporate culture.
          - CitrusCritter
          Long Live the 717!
          XNA
           
          User avatar
          SEPilot
          Posts: 5631
          Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:41 pm

          The NYT has zero credibility as far as I am concerned. My default assumption is that if they report “problems” at a plant then that company is probably doing a good job and the NYT is doing a hit job on them for some political reason.
          The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
           
          Motorhussy
          Posts: 3672
          Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:47 pm

          Revelation wrote:
          trex8 wrote:
          Seems shooting the messenger is a central theme too.

          Some times messengers deserve to be shot.

          trex8 wrote:
          Its not just a SC problem, its a Boeing problem.

          Given the quality of the reporting, there might not be a SC problem.


          I read the article and found it to be quite meticulous. I thought it good that they didn’t try and sensationalise the story but reported what was presented to them from a considerable number of sources. They sought comment from Boeing to balance claims made.

          It will be interesting if there is a follow up article due to more people coming forward.
          come visit the south pacific
           
          Gulfstream500
          Posts: 476
          Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:30 am

          Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

          Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:58 pm

          lightsaber wrote:
          Gulfstream500 wrote:
          I believe that it should be made necessary to have MULTIPLE different agencies (including the F.A.A., NTSB, etc.) audit the production process and certification of aircraft. Not just Boeing, but any aircraft made in the US (or any aircraft used by US operators, if possible). Just one audit can save lives - and no more of that “self certification” junk.

          Do you know how much the certification process already costs? I'm sure some would like that as it would end US aircraft development.

          An error was made. But look how safe aviation is. If automobiles were as safe as the MAX has been, I could understand everyone getting riled up.

          The US safety process made aviation safe. The MAX will soon be back flying again and will be safe.

          Too many audits make flying less safe as audits are paperwork. The process is already miserable.

          Why US airlines? They maintained the aircraft properly. The Lion Air aircraft had issues. Now, the MAX needs to be made better. No one doubts that.

          But by these standards in 1989 the A320 would have been permanently grounded.

          Lightsaber


          Aviation safety IS NOT about being as safe as 1989.

          In the aviation community, people should strive to improve safety. You’re most certainly right about the 737MAX not being the only airplane with issues. For example, for every 5.72 Cessna caravans built, there is a fatality (among the worst in the industry, data from ASN). Cars, on the other hand, have one fatality for every 425 cars on the road, using that there are currently 236 million cars on the road, 37,000 deaths per year, and cars last for 15 years if not crashed which I know is a bit of an overestimation, so this number might be a bit small. The same applies of the Boeing 737MAX. If you look at the data, then one can determine that there has been one fatality for every 1.14 Boeing 737MAX aircraft in existence. Both the Cessna Caravan and the 737MAX have their issues, but they both have worse fatality rates than cars. But, nobody is trying to say that planes are less safe than cars (the Embraer phenom only has 1 fatality per 125 aircraft in existence).
          So... when will the Northwest DC-9s be retired?

          Popular Searches On Airliners.net

          Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

          Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

          Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

          Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

          Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

          Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

          Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

          Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

          Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

          Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

          Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

          Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

          Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

          Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

          Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos