sr117
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 2:00 am

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:36 pm

questions wrote:
I would like to see a simple table — airlines down the columns; work rules, pay and benefits across the rows — comparing Delta FA’s to their US airlines unionized counterparts.

I bet the net net is those unionized FA’s are NOT any better off and that the only ones to benefit from Delta FA’s unionizing are... the union!

I agree however that the FA’s need better rest rules.


From http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/defa ... 15g9dxmJTs

Average F/A wages 2018:
United = $66,252
American = $65,188
Delta = $59,053

Difference from 2017:
United = +$3,791
American = +$2,822
Delta = +$712

Average F/A value of benefits etc for 2018:
United = $20,237
American = $17,007
Delta = $13,433

Average wages + benefits per F/A for 2018:
United = $86,489
American = $82,195
Delta = $72,486
 
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Super80Fan
Posts: 1511
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:14 am

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:08 pm

Some of you guys should really try out crew scheduling for a day, it will really open your eyes. Combine the longer rest rules with the pilot/FA contracts, crew shortages, FA's/pilots who refuse/complain about assignments, and planes that don't touch crew bases and we are lucky if we can even get a bathroom break during our shift.

FA's seem to whine about getting more flight assignments, and I can understand that but pilots are the biggest babies, having extremely short windows we can call them before we miss a two hour callout/they refuse or accidentally calling during their "rest" and having them reset it. That's not even going into the FDP/RAP times for legality and God forbid they call in "fatigue". FA's at least with the current rules have more time we can play with/can callout.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
questions
Posts: 1946
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:38 pm

sr117 wrote:
questions wrote:
I would like to see a simple table — airlines down the columns; work rules, pay and benefits across the rows — comparing Delta FA’s to their US airlines unionized counterparts.

I bet the net net is those unionized FA’s are NOT any better off and that the only ones to benefit from Delta FA’s unionizing are... the union!

I agree however that the FA’s need better rest rules.


From http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/defa ... 15g9dxmJTs

Average F/A wages 2018:
United = $66,252
American = $65,188
Delta = $59,053

Difference from 2017:
United = +$3,791
American = +$2,822
Delta = +$712

Average F/A value of benefits etc for 2018:
United = $20,237
American = $17,007
Delta = $13,433

Average wages + benefits per F/A for 2018:
United = $86,489
American = $82,195
Delta = $72,486


Thanks.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:13 pm

sr117 wrote:

Average F/A wages 2018:
United = $66,252
American = $65,188
Delta = $59,053


I wonder how much of that is down to how (relatively) junior the DL F/A's are compared to AA & UA?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
kiowa
Posts: 545
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:22 pm

NWAESC wrote:
sr117 wrote:

Average F/A wages 2018:
United = $66,252
American = $65,188
Delta = $59,053


I wonder how much of that is down to how (relatively) junior the DL F/A's are compared to AA & UA?


How does it compare to the low budget airlines?
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11630
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:14 pm

ECAMerror wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Delta always fighting against anything good for the workers. Immoral and unethical anti labor company with the dirtiest practices to make sure their employees don't unionize.


And yet their employees are among the happiest and best compensated in the industry...weird.


I'm a pilot at a major airline and I don't usually defend FAs but I will in this case. 8 hrs of rest is INSANE. I don't think most people here understand that 8 hrs begins even while they are still technically working. FAs are no longer paid once the door closes or opens to disembark passengers. Airlines will add a small number of minutes after door opening time from where "rest" starts. This is usually 10-20 minutes, depending on airline. That's where the problem starts. Passengers are usually still onboard the aircraft while their rest period of 8 hrs started. Then it takes 5-15 minutes to walk out to the airport shuttle, then you wait another 0-45 minutes for a shuttle, then another 5-60 minutes to drive to the hotel, then another 10 minutes to check in, then another 30-60 mins to get ready for bed. The next duty period (notice, I didn't say "day"), you get up 2:30 hrs prior to your "report" time at the gate. Spend 1 hr getting ready (shower, shave, iron clothes, pack). Spend 0-60 mins getting to the airport, and 5-15 mins getting to the gate. Notice how none of this accounts for things like eating food or just having down time to read, watch TV, make phone calls, etc. Do the math in a worst case scenario and see that FAs (and even pilots with 10 hrs!) don't get enough "rest". I personally think that if the FAA is going to use a low standard of 8 or 10 hrs, then that time ought to start when you get to your hotel room, not after the aircraft door opens. In the USAF, we had 12 hrs and that started when at the hotel.

Think about the effects on people who are perpetually getting less than 8 hrs of sleep every day. Also keep in mind that pilots and FAs frequently have to switch from getting up really early to staying up all night for a red-eye. You perpetually swap between day/night or in between trip pairings.

Compare this to people who work in just about any other industry. Most people get 8 hr work days, 5 days per week. That's 16 hrs to yourself to commute, exercise, have family time, study, entertain, etc. I'm not a fan of paying FAs too much because it's still an unskilled, uneducated job requiring no prior experience, but it does treat FAs as non-human sometimes. We really need to give FAs at least 10 hrs of rest beginning at the hotel doors.


I don't know if it's like that in other countries but I really don't understand the concept of only being paid for some hours, while required to be at work long before and after.

In France there is a law that applies to all jobs regarding mandatory rest, it's 11 hours.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1064
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:38 pm

GVP wrote:
The MIT Airline Data project proves you wrong. WN, UA and AA outpace their DL counterparts on total compensation.

And they don’t have a Social Security offset like DL dies upon retirement

Only thing DL has better is profit sharing.


You forgot union dues....DL pays no union dues.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5389
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:54 pm

NWAESC wrote:
sr117 wrote:

Average F/A wages 2018:
United = $66,252
American = $65,188
Delta = $59,053


I wonder how much of that is down to how (relatively) junior the DL F/A's are compared to AA & UA?


That's a fair question. We also don't know hours worked. A straight wage rate comparison at xx years of service is probably the better measure.

Always happy to see someone cite numbers and a source, however.
 
reggiet
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 5:04 am

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:43 am

ilovelamp wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Delta always fighting against anything good for the workers. Immoral and unethical anti labor company with the dirtiest practices to make sure their employees don't unionize.


And yet their employees are among the happiest and best compensated in the industry...weird.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
Reggie in Austin
 
reggiet
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 5:04 am

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:46 am

GatorClark wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Delta always fighting against anything good for the workers. Immoral and unethical anti labor company with the dirtiest practices to make sure their employees don't unionize.


Ummm I work for Delta.. Please enlighten me on how they doing anything they can to make sure I don't go union. Is it the pay raise we got recently?? Or maybe is those nice profit sharing checks we get every year? I find Delta to be a great company to work for and I've never had an issue 1) making my voice heard, 2) being felt like I matter, & 3) being rewarded when the fecal matter hits the oscillating device over our head and we all bust our rears the keep everything on schedule.. If they were truly immoral and unethical, I doubt we would have the rewards program we have for our performance. Or that our station manager would buy us all dinner when things go south.. Please give me something to back up this claim you made.



:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Reggie in Austin
 
dlflynhayn
Posts: 288
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:55 pm

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:49 am

GVP wrote:
The MIT Airline Data project proves you wrong. WN, UA and AA outpace their DL counterparts on total compensation.

And they don’t have a Social Security offset like DL dies upon retirement

Only thing DL has better is profit sharing.


Which means i make more and still don't have to pay middle men i'll take that all day thanks!! cant wait for Valentines day lol :D
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1643
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:24 am

dlflynhayn wrote:
GVP wrote:
The MIT Airline Data project proves you wrong. WN, UA and AA outpace their DL counterparts on total compensation.

And they don’t have a Social Security offset like DL dies upon retirement

Only thing DL has better is profit sharing.


Which means i make more and still don't have to pay middle men i'll take that all day thanks!! cant wait for Valentines day lol :D


I pay $50 a month in union dues - it varies by airline, however. That said, even if one were to pay double that, the difference in actual compensation at American or United more than makes up for what they pay in union dues. Factor into that the better benefits at American and United and better quality of life provisions that are contractual (ie; black and white, not subject to change without notice) and I think it's safe to say that American and United FA's are better off if you are looking at it purely from a financial perspective.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1643
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:26 am

reggiet wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Delta always fighting against anything good for the workers. Immoral and unethical anti labor company with the dirtiest practices to make sure their employees don't unionize.


And yet their employees are among the happiest and best compensated in the industry...weird.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:


That's what their management tells them - it must be true.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 433
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:39 am

Super80Fan wrote:
FA's at least with the current rules have more time we can play with/can callout.


And that is EXACTLY the reason why FAs need the 10 hour min rest rule, and why many FAs at certain airlines need their max allowed duty days drastically reduced. I can appreciate your job is easier when you have FAs on the hook working 14, 16, 18 hour days, but its inhumane for the FAs. Your company will just have to hire more schedulers.
 
CRJ200flyer
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:33 pm

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:41 am

First officer for a Delta Connection carrier here... I really hope this new 10 hour rest regulation is passed to help our flight attendants. I’ll get done with an exhausting 4 or 5 leg day, and often our flight attendant still has another flight to go followed by a short rest period. Imagine working for 14 hours and then having only 9 hours off (note you still have to go to and from the hotel, get to and from your room, find somewhere to eat, and then maybe sleep 5 hours), and then go back to another 14 hour day. Oh, and if they reduce your rest below 9 hours, now you can “only” work 12 HOURS the next day. Our laws should not allow anyone to be scheduled this way, especially someone who is serving a safety capacity on an airplane.

EDIT: As has been discussed, the minimum “rest” period is 8 hours for flight attendants. I was referring to 9 hours in my specific airline’s case.
Last edited by CRJ200flyer on Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 433
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:44 am

Speaking of this 10 hour rule, last I heard it was not going to be implemented until 2020. I'm still speechless that a rule passed into law in Oct of 2018 can be strung out and not implemented until 2020, when the law signed said they had 30 days from signing. If Delta is to blame for this, I hope it adds fuel to the union-antiunion dumpster fire they have going on over there.
 
FixemFlyem
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:33 pm

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:27 am

Super80Fan wrote:
Some of you guys should really try out crew scheduling for a day, it will really open your eyes. Combine the longer rest rules with the pilot/FA contracts, crew shortages, FA's/pilots who refuse/complain about assignments, and planes that don't touch crew bases and we are lucky if we can even get a bathroom break during our shift.

FA's seem to whine about getting more flight assignments, and I can understand that but pilots are the biggest babies, having extremely short windows we can call them before we miss a two hour callout/they refuse or accidentally calling during their "rest" and having them reset it. That's not even going into the FDP/RAP times for legality and God forbid they call in "fatigue". FA's at least with the current rules have more time we can play with/can callout.



Perhaps you should leave the scheduling desk and walk a day in a flight crew members shoes. We have fought long and hard to have the rules in place for our protections that you refer to as whining about. I hope the next time you nonrev somewhere your crew members aren’t worn out and fatigued from some of the practices that crew scheduling tries to illegally implement on us.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2137
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:58 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
Some of you guys should really try out crew scheduling for a day, it will really open your eyes. Combine the longer rest rules with the pilot/FA contracts, crew shortages, FA's/pilots who refuse/complain about assignments, and planes that don't touch crew bases and we are lucky if we can even get a bathroom break during our shift.

FA's seem to whine about getting more flight assignments, and I can understand that but pilots are the biggest babies, having extremely short windows we can call them before we miss a two hour callout/they refuse or accidentally calling during their "rest" and having them reset it. That's not even going into the FDP/RAP times for legality and God forbid they call in "fatigue". FA's at least with the current rules have more time we can play with/can callout.


I get what your are saying and I understand some of the criticism people have posted in response to your post.
Walking through the crew scheduling department here at Willis on some days when their is no weather its almost quite. But when we have 2 or 3 hubs impacted by weather those phones are on fire and UA's crew schedulers have their hands full trying to find crews to keep from canceling flights. Having said that I do think there is a need for mandatory FA rest rules.
At UA and I'm assuming at AA the union has negotiated work rules which allow FA's to refuse a flight if the flights hasn't pushed by a certain time internally its call FAMP (flight attendant must push) time. If the flight hasn't pushed by the FAMP the FA's can legally request the MCD be reopened and walk. Or at that point UA has to ask them to waive in order for the flight to leave. Flight attendants number one responsibility as far as the FAA is concerned is safety. Any job where your first priority is the safety of passengers there should be a required rest period (dispatchers have a required FAA mandated rest period).
Just over the past 2 week UA has made some miscalculations, last week weather was forecasted at both EWR and ORD but UA waited till the weather hit to respond which meant over 65 weather diversion numerous cancelations and crews out of place. It took almost 2 days to recover the operation do to aircraft and crews out of place. Then 2 days ago August 11th the weather service again forecasting thunderstorms with up to 3 inches of rain from 4pm through 11pm. They also forecast high winds, lightening for all of Chicagoland. UA preemptively canceled or overnight delayed multiple flights at ORD to avoid the mess we endured a week earlier and guess what the forecast was wrong, all we had was a few light sprinkles, no 3 inches of rain, no thunder or high winds the weather system completely missed us. I said that to say thing during inclement weather when there are FA's sitting at airport across the system for 4, 5, 6, 7 even up to 8 hours waiting is it safe to then assign a FA who's been at an airport for up to 8 hours, a 4, 5 or 6 hour flight? If the contract allows it a crew scheduler would then schedule the FA for the flight if the flight does not push by the FAMP (even if the doors are closed) the FA's at UA and I'm assuming AA can have the MCD reopened that point can walk. However in DL's situation where there is no contract who makes that decision as to if an FA is legal to fly and when can DL's FA's walk? Wasn't there a situation earlier this year where DL forced FA's to work a flight even though it had been delayed for hours and they had been on the clock without rest for perhaps (my timing could be wrong) 10 or more hours? Wasn't it reported that DL management instructed the C.S. agents to close the door even though maintenance was still working on the problem and the flight sat there for an additional amount of time door closed while maintenance continued their work?

I'm not saying DL's or any other airlines FA's need a union especially if they are happy without one but what I am saying is the FAA needs to step in with mandatory rest rules for FA's because safety is their number one duty while on the aircraft.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:14 pm

ECAMerror wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Delta always fighting against anything good for the workers. Immoral and unethical anti labor company with the dirtiest practices to make sure their employees don't unionize.


And yet their employees are among the happiest and best compensated in the industry...weird.


I'm a pilot at a major airline and I don't usually defend FAs but I will in this case....
Compare this to people who work in just about any other industry. Most people get 8 hr work days, 5 days per week. That's 16 hrs to yourself to commute, exercise, have family time, study, entertain, etc. I'm not a fan of paying FAs too much because it's still an unskilled, uneducated job requiring no prior experience, but it does treat FAs as non-human sometimes. We really need to give FAs at least 10 hrs of rest beginning at the hotel doors.


I'm curious: when you are off, how many days off do you get? Other industries only get two as a maximum.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1082
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:31 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
reggiet wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:

And yet their employees are among the happiest and best compensated in the industry...weird.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:


That's what their management tells them - it must be true.

No, that's what the DL employees themselves say.
And the fact that most have been rejecting unions drives year after year with an increasing margin every time, even after the Obama administration made it easier for unions to be voted in, proves the DL employees do not see any value in paying for union dues.
 
User avatar
Super80Fan
Posts: 1511
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:14 am

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:01 pm

FixemFlyem wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Some of you guys should really try out crew scheduling for a day, it will really open your eyes. Combine the longer rest rules with the pilot/FA contracts, crew shortages, FA's/pilots who refuse/complain about assignments, and planes that don't touch crew bases and we are lucky if we can even get a bathroom break during our shift.

FA's seem to whine about getting more flight assignments, and I can understand that but pilots are the biggest babies, having extremely short windows we can call them before we miss a two hour callout/they refuse or accidentally calling during their "rest" and having them reset it. That's not even going into the FDP/RAP times for legality and God forbid they call in "fatigue". FA's at least with the current rules have more time we can play with/can callout.



Perhaps you should leave the scheduling desk and walk a day in a flight crew members shoes. We have fought long and hard to have the rules in place for our protections that you refer to as whining about. I hope the next time you nonrev somewhere your crew members aren’t worn out and fatigued from some of the practices that crew scheduling tries to illegally implement on us.


Oh I have. My problem is not with working 6 days a week with 12-15 hour days, my problem is when you have no flying scheduled and we throw something on your schedule and you complain about doing your job. Find a different career if you don’t want to go flying.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
catiii
Posts: 3058
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:03 pm

The good news is that DL has a very sympathetic ear in the new FAA Administrator that should allow them to influence these kinds of things going forward... :lol:
 
User avatar
Super80Fan
Posts: 1511
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:14 am

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:08 pm

jayunited wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Some of you guys should really try out crew scheduling for a day, it will really open your eyes. Combine the longer rest rules with the pilot/FA contracts, crew shortages, FA's/pilots who refuse/complain about assignments, and planes that don't touch crew bases and we are lucky if we can even get a bathroom break during our shift.

FA's seem to whine about getting more flight assignments, and I can understand that but pilots are the biggest babies, having extremely short windows we can call them before we miss a two hour callout/they refuse or accidentally calling during their "rest" and having them reset it. That's not even going into the FDP/RAP times for legality and God forbid they call in "fatigue". FA's at least with the current rules have more time we can play with/can callout.


I get what your are saying and I understand some of the criticism people have posted in response to your post.
Walking through the crew scheduling department here at Willis on some days when their is no weather its almost quite. But when we have 2 or 3 hubs impacted by weather those phones are on fire and UA's crew schedulers have their hands full trying to find crews to keep from canceling flights. Having said that I do think there is a need for mandatory FA rest rules.
At UA and I'm assuming at AA the union has negotiated work rules which allow FA's to refuse a flight if the flights hasn't pushed by a certain time internally its call FAMP (flight attendant must push) time. If the flight hasn't pushed by the FAMP the FA's can legally request the MCD be reopened and walk. Or at that point UA has to ask them to waive in order for the flight to leave. Flight attendants number one responsibility as far as the FAA is concerned is safety. Any job where your first priority is the safety of passengers there should be a required rest period (dispatchers have a required FAA mandated rest period).
Just over the past 2 week UA has made some miscalculations, last week weather was forecasted at both EWR and ORD but UA waited till the weather hit to respond which meant over 65 weather diversion numerous cancelations and crews out of place. It took almost 2 days to recover the operation do to aircraft and crews out of place. Then 2 days ago August 11th the weather service again forecasting thunderstorms with up to 3 inches of rain from 4pm through 11pm. They also forecast high winds, lightening for all of Chicagoland. UA preemptively canceled or overnight delayed multiple flights at ORD to avoid the mess we endured a week earlier and guess what the forecast was wrong, all we had was a few light sprinkles, no 3 inches of rain, no thunder or high winds the weather system completely missed us. I said that to say thing during inclement weather when there are FA's sitting at airport across the system for 4, 5, 6, 7 even up to 8 hours waiting is it safe to then assign a FA who's been at an airport for up to 8 hours, a 4, 5 or 6 hour flight? If the contract allows it a crew scheduler would then schedule the FA for the flight if the flight does not push by the FAMP (even if the doors are closed) the FA's at UA and I'm assuming AA can have the MCD reopened that point can walk. However in DL's situation where there is no contract who makes that decision as to if an FA is legal to fly and when can DL's FA's walk? Wasn't there a situation earlier this year where DL forced FA's to work a flight even though it had been delayed for hours and they had been on the clock without rest for perhaps (my timing could be wrong) 10 or more hours? Wasn't it reported that DL management instructed the C.S. agents to close the door even though maintenance was still working on the problem and the flight sat there for an additional amount of time door closed while maintenance continued their work?

I'm not saying DL's or any other airlines FA's need a union especially if they are happy without one but what I am saying is the FAA needs to step in with mandatory rest rules for FA's because safety is their number one duty while on the aircraft.


Thank you for your reply. I can certainly understand it from a flight crew member’s point of view as well. When I travel as a passenger for 12-16 hours straight a day, I am tired. I can only imagine how the pilots and FA’s are feeling having to actually work and then run off to another flight. I know how tired they get at the end of the day and I am for longer rest for them as I know how long it can take hotel shuttles, checking in, and actually falling asleep.

My problem is not with that or even the ones who complain about more flying being added to their already busy day. my problem is with the ones who voluntarily signed up for an airline job, have had almost 3 days off of no assignments, and then complaining when you add a 4 day trip to their schedule or one extra leg to a two day trip.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 433
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:19 pm

Are you allowed to say what airline you schedule for? My problem is with airlines that have work rules so wide open it takes a act of god to go illegal. Imagine getting scheduled for a 12 hour day and then being forced to work to 18. 12 hours up and down in the air is already enough. That allows for sloppy staffing in all departments and all your line holders are more or less reserves of convenience. I'm looking at the LCCs and ULCCs when I say this. The big airlines at least have some restrictions placed on what can be done with them besides the bear minimum FAA mandates. At least when the FAA mandates actually are respected, UNLIKE this sinful disregard of the 10 hour min rest rule that someone at the FAA should be fired over.
 
kiowa
Posts: 545
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:18 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
reggiet wrote:

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:


That's what their management tells them - it must be true.

No, that's what the DL employees themselves say.
And the fact that most have been rejecting unions drives year after year with an increasing margin every time, even after the Obama administration made it easier for unions to be voted in, proves the DL employees do not see any value in paying for union dues.



Or Delta has been very good at squashing union efforts on the property. Interesting that their union pilots lead or are near leading the industry in pay and benefits yet their non-union employees do not.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1082
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:42 pm

kiowa wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:

That's what their management tells them - it must be true.

No, that's what the DL employees themselves say.
And the fact that most have been rejecting unions drives year after year with an increasing margin every time, even after the Obama administration made it easier for unions to be voted in, proves the DL employees do not see any value in paying for union dues.



Or Delta has been very good at squashing union efforts on the property. Interesting that their union pilots lead or are near leading the industry in pay and benefits yet their non-union employees do not.

Do you really believe that DL employees won't go out there and inform themselves on unions and union drives?
DL employees are as smart as any other airline employees; if they want to organize, they will know where to go and get the information. It's been told also that unions have gone door to door to get airlines employees to sign cards; we know the result at DL.

I can't understand why a.net wants every airline worker to be unionized. Some airline employees have gone that route, and it's their choice; most of DL employees have decided not to, and it's their choice as well.
People need to respect that.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1643
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:37 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
kiowa wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
No, that's what the DL employees themselves say.
And the fact that most have been rejecting unions drives year after year with an increasing margin every time, even after the Obama administration made it easier for unions to be voted in, proves the DL employees do not see any value in paying for union dues.



Or Delta has been very good at squashing union efforts on the property. Interesting that their union pilots lead or are near leading the industry in pay and benefits yet their non-union employees do not.

Do you really believe that DL employees won't go out there and inform themselves on unions and union drives?
DL employees are as smart as any other airline employees; if they want to organize, they will know where to go and get the information. It's been told also that unions have gone door to door to get airlines employees to sign cards; we know the result at DL.

I can't understand why a.net wants every airline worker to be unionized. Some airline employees have gone that route, and it's their choice; most of DL employees have decided not to, and it's their choice as well.
People need to respect that.


actually, I really do believe that many don't inform themselves - they just believe what they're told. I participated in a union organizing drive and saw, first hand, the weird cult like behaviors of many of the more tenured ATL based FA's. Having said that, I do think that the senior people are slowly outnumbered by the more junior people. The junior folk are interested in the biggest bang for their buck - however that has to happen - so I wouldn't be surprised if the tables finally turned and AFA is successful. The number of junior people, coupled with the numbers of former Northwest people that want a union may finally outnumber the southern belles from the ATL base that think big Daddy Delta will always take care of them.
 
kiowa
Posts: 545
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:17 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
kiowa wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
No, that's what the DL employees themselves say.
And the fact that most have been rejecting unions drives year after year with an increasing margin every time, even after the Obama administration made it easier for unions to be voted in, proves the DL employees do not see any value in paying for union dues.



Or Delta has been very good at squashing union efforts on the property. Interesting that their union pilots lead or are near leading the industry in pay and benefits yet their non-union employees do not.

Do you really believe that DL employees won't go out there and inform themselves on unions and union drives?
DL employees are as smart as any other airline employees; if they want to organize, they will know where to go and get the information. It's been told also that unions have gone door to door to get airlines employees to sign cards; we know the result at DL.

I can't understand why a.net wants every airline worker to be unionized. Some airline employees have gone that route, and it's their choice; most of DL employees have decided not to, and it's their choice as well.
People need to respect that.


I believe that the Delta employees are just as intellegant as any other group of airline people. Informed though--that is always a debate. Where someone gets their information from makes all the difference. Management at Delta has pushed really hard for a long time to prevent additional unions on the property and many employees choose to believe management. It is very similar to someone paying attention to Fox News or CNN. Neither one is news anymore, just spin, yet people buy into their propaganda. If the majority of Delta employees choose to listen to management, there will not be additional unions. If the majority get their information elsewhere, perhaps there will be more unions.
 
777Mech
Posts: 750
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:23 pm

GVP wrote:
The MIT Airline Data project proves you wrong. WN, UA and AA outpace their DL counterparts on total compensation.

And they don’t have a Social Security offset like DL dies upon retirement

Only thing DL has better is profit sharing.


Not disagreeing, but could you post the link to this data?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1082
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:48 pm

kiowa wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
kiowa wrote:


Or Delta has been very good at squashing union efforts on the property. Interesting that their union pilots lead or are near leading the industry in pay and benefits yet their non-union employees do not.

Do you really believe that DL employees won't go out there and inform themselves on unions and union drives?
DL employees are as smart as any other airline employees; if they want to organize, they will know where to go and get the information. It's been told also that unions have gone door to door to get airlines employees to sign cards; we know the result at DL.

I can't understand why a.net wants every airline worker to be unionized. Some airline employees have gone that route, and it's their choice; most of DL employees have decided not to, and it's their choice as well.
People need to respect that.


I believe that the Delta employees are just as intellegant as any other group of airline people. Informed though--that is always a debate. Where someone gets their information from makes all the difference. Management at Delta has pushed really hard for a long time to prevent additional unions on the property and many employees choose to believe management. It is very similar to someone paying attention to Fox News or CNN. Neither one is news anymore, just spin, yet people buy into their propaganda. If the majority of Delta employees choose to listen to management, there will not be additional unions. If the majority get their information elsewhere, perhaps there will be more unions.

Or, if the majority get their information outside of what management tells them (as they most likely do, there are many union billboards around ATL airport), perhaps they decided that they are better off without unions.

Again, what's wrong with being in a non-union environment? Employees decide, their choice must be respected; the employees choice is respected by management when they decide to get unionized, but the union refuse to respect the employees choice when they decide to not get unionized.

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