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Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:55 pm
by SoCalFlyer
https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2019 ... ttendants/

Also according to AFA president Sara Nelson this is true that Delta is trying to fight the new FAA mandated rest. What exactly is their opposition to it?

Here is another link direct from AFA
https://www.afacwa.org/update_on_our_fight_for_10

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:59 pm
by gonnagetbumpy
Sara Nelson will day anything she can to make an ‘enemy’ to fight against. This is actually false, however, they have tried to delay it some to get some technology things fixed before it is implemented. They've also hired several hundred additional flights attendants in preparation for it.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:02 am
by SoCalFlyer
But isn’t there a hard cut over time usually for these things.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:19 am
by Detroit313
Delta always fighting against anything good for the workers. Immoral and unethical anti labor company with the dirtiest practices to make sure their employees don't unionize.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:23 am
by ilovelamp
Detroit313 wrote:
Delta always fighting against anything good for the workers. Immoral and unethical anti labor company with the dirtiest practices to make sure their employees don't unionize.


And yet their employees are among the happiest and best compensated in the industry...weird.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:44 am
by ECAMerror
ilovelamp wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Delta always fighting against anything good for the workers. Immoral and unethical anti labor company with the dirtiest practices to make sure their employees don't unionize.


And yet their employees are among the happiest and best compensated in the industry...weird.


I'm a pilot at a major airline and I don't usually defend FAs but I will in this case. 8 hrs of rest is INSANE. I don't think most people here understand that 8 hrs begins even while they are still technically working. FAs are no longer paid once the door closes or opens to disembark passengers. Airlines will add a small number of minutes after door opening time from where "rest" starts. This is usually 10-20 minutes, depending on airline. That's where the problem starts. Passengers are usually still onboard the aircraft while their rest period of 8 hrs started. Then it takes 5-15 minutes to walk out to the airport shuttle, then you wait another 0-45 minutes for a shuttle, then another 5-60 minutes to drive to the hotel, then another 10 minutes to check in, then another 30-60 mins to get ready for bed. The next duty period (notice, I didn't say "day"), you get up 2:30 hrs prior to your "report" time at the gate. Spend 1 hr getting ready (shower, shave, iron clothes, pack). Spend 0-60 mins getting to the airport, and 5-15 mins getting to the gate. Notice how none of this accounts for things like eating food or just having down time to read, watch TV, make phone calls, etc. Do the math in a worst case scenario and see that FAs (and even pilots with 10 hrs!) don't get enough "rest". I personally think that if the FAA is going to use a low standard of 8 or 10 hrs, then that time ought to start when you get to your hotel room, not after the aircraft door opens. In the USAF, we had 12 hrs and that started when at the hotel.

Think about the effects on people who are perpetually getting less than 8 hrs of sleep every day. Also keep in mind that pilots and FAs frequently have to switch from getting up really early to staying up all night for a red-eye. You perpetually swap between day/night or in between trip pairings.

Compare this to people who work in just about any other industry. Most people get 8 hr work days, 5 days per week. That's 16 hrs to yourself to commute, exercise, have family time, study, entertain, etc. I'm not a fan of paying FAs too much because it's still an unskilled, uneducated job requiring no prior experience, but it does treat FAs as non-human sometimes. We really need to give FAs at least 10 hrs of rest beginning at the hotel doors.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:02 am
by findingnema
ECAMerror wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Delta always fighting against anything good for the workers. Immoral and unethical anti labor company with the dirtiest practices to make sure their employees don't unionize.


And yet their employees are among the happiest and best compensated in the industry...weird.


I'm a pilot at a major airline and I don't usually defend FAs but I will in this case. I'm not a fan of paying FAs too much because it's still an unskilled, uneducated job requiring no prior experience, but it does treat FAs as non-human sometimes. We really need to give FAs at least 10 hrs of rest beginning at the hotel doors.


If ever there were a reason why cabin crews need strong negotiators (whether an organised trade union or an internal staff network) to lobby for better terms and conditions, it’s countering posts like this. I worked as cabin crew for the best part of 11 years and worked with many women and men on the flight deck who had the utmost respect for all of their colleagues - whether the cabin crews that they treated as their eyes and ears on the other side of the flight deck door, the ground and catering agents or fuellers, anyone that we came into contact with. This Jurassic mentality that someone is better than someone else because of their role at work, and that people should have a cap on their remuneration, belongs to a completely different era. For any commercial pilot to have such little respect for their colleagues and the skills that they bring to work, I would genuinely worry about the safety communication and CRM skills that they bring to work every day.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:05 am
by Dalmd88
Detroit313 wrote:
Delta always fighting against anything good for the workers. Immoral and unethical anti labor company with the dirtiest practices to make sure their employees don't unionize.

You are so wrong. Yes I've been pro union for a long time, but I really don't see it happening at DL under the current leadership. From TechOps they have done nothing to get a union drive started.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:17 am
by Lemieux
As someone who works in the operation of a major airline and as a former FA scheduler, 8 hours of rest isn’t much, and should be raised. That said, it’s pretty rare that we get FA’s that go down to that FAR min without being of their own choosing. It happens, but it’s not often.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:23 am
by ECAMerror
findingnema wrote:
ECAMerror wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:

And yet their employees are among the happiest and best compensated in the industry...weird.


I'm a pilot at a major airline and I don't usually defend FAs but I will in this case. I'm not a fan of paying FAs too much because it's still an unskilled, uneducated job requiring no prior experience, but it does treat FAs as non-human sometimes. We really need to give FAs at least 10 hrs of rest beginning at the hotel doors.


If ever there were a reason why cabin crews need strong negotiators (whether an organised trade union or an internal staff network) to lobby for better terms and conditions, it’s countering posts like this. I worked as cabin crew for the best part of 11 years and worked with many women and men on the flight deck who had the utmost respect for all of their colleagues - whether the cabin crews that they treated as their eyes and ears on the other side of the flight deck door, the ground and catering agents or fuellers, anyone that we came into contact with. This Jurassic mentality that someone is better than someone else because of their role at work, and that people should have a cap on their remuneration, belongs to a completely different era. For any commercial pilot to have such little respect for their colleagues and the skills that they bring to work, I would genuinely worry about the safety communication and CRM skills that they bring to work every day.


Respect doesn't mean that I have to hyperbolize the job to heroic levels. You want to have an emotional argument where respect, to you, equates to normalizing the job of a medical doctor to that of a FA. They are not the same thing. I respect my cabin crew but I also understand things from a logistical standpoint and from a standpoint of basic economics. How long does it take to produce a FA? 4 weeks from zero experience? Compare this to a professional like a scientist or engineer who takes at least 4-8 yrs in a higher education environment, not to mention significant amounts of subsequent training for a job that is not scripted.

What skills do you speak of?

I never said anything about anyone being better than anyone else. You did. And furthermore, that is your perception that you hold, not me. If you're offended by my words, you're offended by factual statements. I'm merely saying that (1) FAs should get 10 hrs because they are treated inhumanely, (2) that this is not about making more money, BUT, if it were, (3) that FAs should get paid from the time they show up for duty to the time they have arrived at their hotel.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:55 am
by Boof02671
Delta is spending millions to fight the DL FAs and the IAM as there is a current union organizing drive going on.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:58 am
by GatorClark
Detroit313 wrote:
Delta always fighting against anything good for the workers. Immoral and unethical anti labor company with the dirtiest practices to make sure their employees don't unionize.


Ummm I work for Delta.. Please enlighten me on how they doing anything they can to make sure I don't go union. Is it the pay raise we got recently?? Or maybe is those nice profit sharing checks we get every year? I find Delta to be a great company to work for and I've never had an issue 1) making my voice heard, 2) being felt like I matter, & 3) being rewarded when the fecal matter hits the oscillating device over our head and we all bust our rears the keep everything on schedule.. If they were truly immoral and unethical, I doubt we would have the rewards program we have for our performance. Or that our station manager would buy us all dinner when things go south.. Please give me something to back up this claim you made.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:00 am
by Boof02671
Delta is spending millions on fighting the IAM drive. They have videos playing anti-union messages in the work area, have flyers in the work area and mail them to the houses.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:00 am
by ECAMerror
Boof02671 wrote:
Delta is spending millions to fight the DL FAs and the IAM as there is a current union organizing drive going on.


I hope they are proactive instead of reactive in their fight. Airlines use union-busters with known tactics. They should write a playbook describing all the tactics used by corporations and union busters to prevent unionization. Furthermore, FAs need to make sure their union isn't filled with ineffective people who are themselves simply cashing in on having a position of power. For example, unions do an absolutely horrible job in educating their members with the Railway Labor Act. Too many people are self-policing themselves from entertaining real bargaining postures because union types will tell them things like "you'll never get that" even though anything is literally on the table. I don't personally think unions are nearly effective enough.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:00 am
by Boof02671
They are using Ford and Harrison.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:08 am
by ECAMerror
Boof02671 wrote:
They are using Ford and Harrison.


Oh yes... the same law firm used by every airline. They are becoming more and more insidious in their tactics. It seems like their new tactic is to "contain" rather than to outright deny. I hope FAs don't get misled into believing that they have to settle for F&H's weak offers. Nowhere in the RLA is a clause that requires a labor group to agree with the offers of the employer. They can continue to reject offers until the RLA has "taken its course" (verbatim from the RLA).

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:09 am
by Boof02671
I’ve negotiated at US Airways for the IAM Mechanic and Related against Glass in the second bankruptcy, I know him and their tactics all too well. Have lots of DL FA friends who are pro union

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:14 am
by CobaltScar
Lemieux wrote:
As someone who works in the operation of a major airline and as a former FA scheduler, 8 hours of rest isn’t much, and should be raised. That said, it’s pretty rare that we get FA’s that go down to that FAR min without being of their own choosing. It happens, but it’s not often.



Rare? It happens EVERY day. Well, 90 percent of days. Whole lines of flying get delayed because of crew rest, which means the schedulers graciously add enough minutes of "rest" to barley get to 8 hours and the plane and passengers are delayed by the same amount of minutes.

Its criminal that Delta and whoever else is trying to delay the 10 hours rest provision and I want to know HOW the FAA is allowed to get away with ignoring a mandate in the law from October 2018 that said they had 30 days to implement this new rest rule.

Fire the current FAA leadership for this negligence and the MAX fiasco.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:19 am
by ECAMerror
CobaltScar wrote:
Lemieux wrote:
As someone who works in the operation of a major airline and as a former FA scheduler, 8 hours of rest isn’t much, and should be raised. That said, it’s pretty rare that we get FA’s that go down to that FAR min without being of their own choosing. It happens, but it’s not often.



Rare? It happens EVERY day. Well, 90 percent of days. Whole lines of flying get delayed because of crew rest, which means the schedulers graciously add enough minutes of "rest" to barley get to 8 hours and the plane and passengers are delayed by the same amount of minutes.

Its criminal that Delta and whoever else is trying to delay the 10 hours rest provision and I want to know HOW the FAA is allowed to get away with ignoring a mandate in the law from October 2018 that said they had 30 days to implement this new rest rule.

Fire the current FAA leadership for this negligence and the MAX fiasco.


We should have no sympathy for Delta or any other airline. People solve much much harder logistical issues in 24 hrs time. Delta is just trying to protect their quarterly earnings figures for Wall Street. The longer they can delay, the more they'll make. If they claim it's a software issue, I say B.S. Video game developers, who have a significantly harder engineering job, take a month to code something 1000x more complex.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:24 am
by TTailedTiger
Detroit313 wrote:
Delta always fighting against anything good for the workers. Immoral and unethical anti labor company with the dirtiest practices to make sure their employees don't unionize.


I am often critical of Delta but this just isn't the case at all.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:31 am
by CobaltScar
Someone that knows more about the FAA, please explain to us how the FAA can decide to ignore a re-authorization bill that is signed into law in October 2018 that says the FAA has 30 days to change the rest rule and inform the airlines of said change. So far they have not even given the airlines notice, much less given them a time frame to implement the new rule.

HOW are they ignoring the 30 day mandate written in the Oct 2018 law? I need to know.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:34 am
by Boof02671
Because the law gave the FAA and the airlines a time period for each airline to develop their rest program, get it approved and implemented.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:34 am
by ECAMerror
CobaltScar wrote:
Someone that knows more about the FAA, please explain to us how the FAA can decide to ignore a re-authorization bill that is signed into law in October 2018 that says the FAA has 30 days to change the rest rule and inform the airlines of said change. So far they have not even given the airlines notice, much less given them a time frame to implement the new rule.

HOW are they ignoring the 30 day mandate written in the Oct 2018 law? I need to know.


They can't.

However, if no one holds the government accountable, they literally get away with murder. The unions need to justify their existence by suing the FAA over failure to enforce the law as they are obligated to.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:01 am
by CobaltScar
Boof02671 wrote:
Because the law gave the FAA and the airlines a time period for each airline to develop their rest program, get it approved and implemented.



The airlines don't have to even begin the process of planning, much less implementing, a program until the FAA has officially notified them of the rule change, which the FAA has NOT done yet. Despite the law saying they had 30 days from back in October to do so. So the airlines are twiddling their thumbs and laying all the blame down at the FAA door mat.

ECAMerror wrote:
They can't.

However, if no one holds the government accountable, they literally get away with murder. The unions need to justify their existence by suing the FAA over failure to enforce the law as they are obligated to.


This is what needs to happen.

I thought it was all just FAA incompetence, but perhaps there is some scheming behind the scenes from the airlines too. But of course those same airlines are telling their employees they are just innocently waiting for notice from the FAA. Its all so tiresome.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:19 am
by Etheereal
CobaltScar wrote:
Someone that knows more about the FAA, please explain to us how the FAA can decide to ignore a re-authorization bill that is signed into law in October 2018 that says the FAA has 30 days to change the rest rule and inform the airlines of said change. So far they have not even given the airlines notice, much less given them a time frame to implement the new rule.

HOW are they ignoring the 30 day mandate written in the Oct 2018 law? I need to know.

Money does wonders.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:10 am
by ECAMerror
StuckInCA wrote:
ECAMerror wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:

Compare this to people who work in just about any other industry. Most people get 8 hr work days, 5 days per week. That's 16 hrs to yourself to commute, exercise, have family time, study, entertain, etc. I'm not a fan of paying FAs too much because it's still an unskilled, uneducated job requiring no prior experience, but it does treat FAs as non-human sometimes. We really need to give FAs at least 10 hrs of rest beginning at the hotel doors.


While I don't disagree with the premise of your post, the notion that most people in just about any other industry work 8x5's is fairly nonsensical. Many of us work many more hours than that.


I was trying to express the statistic under Title 3.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... 3172c3a4f6

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:55 am
by INFINITI329
How does DL think they can stop the inevitable....its already the law..

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:40 am
by global1
Add me to the list of content employees at Delta.
I was former Northwest. Hard to believe that it’s been over a decade since the merger.

There’s a reason the IAM has not even been able to get enough cards to call for an election, much less win one.
Furthermore, every few months the cards previously submitted fall off unless they are resubmitted. It’s like ‘whack a mole’.

Videos and mind control at work.
Puhleez..... classic IAM BS.

Remind me again next Feb.14th when I receive my profit sharing check in the five figures how ‘awful’ it is to work here.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:54 am
by Etheereal
INFINITI329 wrote:
How does DL think they can stop the inevitable....its already the law..

Ask the FAA as well.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:26 am
by Boof02671
global1 wrote:
Add me to the list of content employees at Delta.
I was former Northwest. Hard to believe that it’s been over a decade since the merger.

There’s a reason the IAM has not even been able to get enough cards to call for an election, much less win one.
Furthermore, every few months the cards previously submitted fall off unless they are resubmitted. It’s like ‘whack a mole’.

Videos and mind control at work.
Puhleez..... classic IAM BS.

Remind me again next Feb.14th when I receive my profit sharing check in the five figures how ‘awful’ it is to work here.

Shall i post a link to the pics of it?

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:39 am
by global1
No need.

I won’t be able to counter with pictures of the countless flyers, mail stuffers, phone calls, etc.. I’ve received from IAM and previously AFA over the last decade.

Heard countless times that a filing for representation was ‘imminent’. They don’t seem to be bothering much lately. Obviously not getting much traction.

Essentially beating a dead horse at this point in time.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:24 pm
by klm617
StuckInCA wrote:
ECAMerror wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:

Compare this to people who work in just about any other industry. Most people get 8 hr work days, 5 days per week. That's 16 hrs to yourself to commute, exercise, have family time, study, entertain, etc. I'm not a fan of paying FAs too much because it's still an unskilled, uneducated job requiring no prior experience, but it does treat FAs as non-human sometimes. We really need to give FAs at least 10 hrs of rest beginning at the hotel doors.


While I don't disagree with the premise of your post, the notion that most people in just about any other industry work 8x5's is fairly nonsensical. Many of us work many more hours than that.



Yes but for the most part other employees in other job fields get paid for every hour they are on the clock flight attendents don't.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:10 pm
by mbm3
A union may have a better chance given this crew rest issue as well as the toxicity issues being experienced with the new uniforms.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:19 pm
by MSPNWA
In general I would expect airlines to work against the new rule. DL may have more to lose since we know there isn't a contract for the FAs that may have better-than-minimum work rules regarding rest. Be interesting to know if that's the case.

Ironically unions likely played a role in the passage of the new rule. It's important to have that voice.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:24 pm
by atcsundevil
Please stick to the topic or the thread will be locked. This is NOT a debate over union vs. nonunion, so please don't turn it into one.

✈️ atcsundevil

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:25 pm
by Babyshark
IMHO having been here at Delta long enough, the aim is 51% approval of a pilot contract. That means you didn't waste any money, right?

With FAs, you just have to do enough that going IAM will cost most (by a higher margin) to go IAM then remain non unionized.

Some seem to think it's evil Delta vs flight attendants, but that's not the whole picture. It's really Delta vs FAs and FAs vs FAs. Same with pilots. Work rules are not there just to protect us from Delta, they're there to protect us from ourselves and each other. Look at it this way, we have pilots that would love to sell back their vacations for pay and then go fly. And overnight if we allowed it we could furlough pilots. So we don't allow it, but new pilots ask about it all the time and there are plenty of old ones who would love it. And probably some old ones who would disagree with selling it but then sell it if the money is sitting on the table. It just isn't Delta vs us.

That said, you go messing with the current balance and you will see push back. So work rule improvements are not as cut and dry as they seem sometimes. With that in mind, Delta could probably fight rule changes and have more support than you think.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:43 pm
by kiowa
Babyshark wrote:
IMHO having been here at Delta long enough, the aim is 51% approval of a pilot contract. That means you didn't waste any money, right?

With FAs, you just have to do enough that going IAM will cost most (by a higher margin) to go IAM then remain non unionized.

Some seem to think it's evil Delta vs flight attendants, but that's not the whole picture. It's really Delta vs FAs and FAs vs FAs. Same with pilots. Work rules are not there just to protect us from Delta, they're there to protect us from ourselves and each other. Look at it this way, we have pilots that would love to sell back their vacations for pay and then go fly. And overnight if we allowed it we could furlough pilots. So we don't allow it, but new pilots ask about it all the time and there are plenty of old ones who would love it. And probably some old ones who would disagree with selling it but then sell it if the money is sitting on the table. It just isn't Delta vs us.

That said, you go messing with the current balance and you will see push back. So work rule improvements are not as cut and dry as they seem sometimes. With that in mind, Delta could probably fight rule changes and have more support than you think.


Pretty objective. Delta will not give any work group anymore than they have to.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:59 pm
by INFINITI329
Etheereal wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
How does DL think they can stop the inevitable....its already the law..

Ask the FAA as well.


Agreed.... The flight attendant unions should highly consider taking the FAA to court to force their hand.

SEC. 312. FLIGHT ATTENDANT DUTY PERIOD LIMITATIONS AND REST REQUIREMENTS.
(a) Modification Of Final Rule.—

(1) IN GENERAL.—Not later than 30 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Transportation shall modify the final rule of the Federal Aviation Administration published in the Federal Register on August 19, 1994 (59 Fed. Reg. 42974; relating to flight attendant duty period limitations and rest requirements) in accordance with the requirements of this subsection.

(2) CONTENTS.—The final rule, as modified under paragraph (1), shall ensure that—

(A) a flight attendant scheduled to a duty period of 14 hours or less is given a scheduled rest period of at least 10 consecutive hours; and

(B) the rest period is not reduced under any circumstances

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:27 am
by ECAMerror
INFINITI329 wrote:
Etheereal wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
How does DL think they can stop the inevitable....its already the law..

Ask the FAA as well.


Agreed.... The flight attendant unions should highly consider taking the FAA to court to force their hand.

SEC. 312. FLIGHT ATTENDANT DUTY PERIOD LIMITATIONS AND REST REQUIREMENTS.
(a) Modification Of Final Rule.—

(1) IN GENERAL.—Not later than 30 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Transportation shall modify the final rule of the Federal Aviation Administration published in the Federal Register on August 19, 1994 (59 Fed. Reg. 42974; relating to flight attendant duty period limitations and rest requirements) in accordance with the requirements of this subsection.

(2) CONTENTS.—The final rule, as modified under paragraph (1), shall ensure that—

(A) a flight attendant scheduled to a duty period of 14 hours or less is given a scheduled rest period of at least 10 consecutive hours; and

(B) the rest period is not reduced under any circumstances


Precisely. The legal route is the best. Delta personnel are happy because the aviation sector is at historic highs right now. Unemployment is at record lows and companies are having difficulty finding qualified labour. This will change someday based on the cyclical nature of everything in the universe. If FA's don't want a union now, inevitably they will. Someday Delta won't be well run, or the economy will tank, and they'll change their tune. That's ok. I wish them the best now. In fact, I hope they get happier and paid more. It raises the bar for pay and rules for the rest of the industry. However, show no mercy with the FAA. Nobody watches them. It took Trump to ground the 737Max because the FAA is NOT concerned about your safety. They have a split mandate in their mission statement. Watch the PBS Documentary "Flying Cheap".

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:09 pm
by N983AN
Boof02671 wrote:
I’ve negotiated at US Airways for the IAM Mechanic and Related against Glass in the second bankruptcy, I know him and their tactics all too well. Have lots of DL FA friends who are pro union


“Friends” on a Facebook group? The IAM drive is DOA, DL employees are treated well, are happy and don’t want to go back to the toxic divisive NWA culture.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:35 pm
by slider
ECAMerror wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Delta always fighting against anything good for the workers. Immoral and unethical anti labor company with the dirtiest practices to make sure their employees don't unionize.


And yet their employees are among the happiest and best compensated in the industry...weird.


I'm a pilot at a major airline and I don't usually defend FAs but I will in this case. 8 hrs of rest is INSANE. I don't think most people here understand that 8 hrs begins even while they are still technically working. FAs are no longer paid once the door closes or opens to disembark passengers. Airlines will add a small number of minutes after door opening time from where "rest" starts. This is usually 10-20 minutes, depending on airline. That's where the problem starts. Passengers are usually still onboard the aircraft while their rest period of 8 hrs started. Then it takes 5-15 minutes to walk out to the airport shuttle, then you wait another 0-45 minutes for a shuttle, then another 5-60 minutes to drive to the hotel, then another 10 minutes to check in, then another 30-60 mins to get ready for bed. The next duty period (notice, I didn't say "day"), you get up 2:30 hrs prior to your "report" time at the gate. Spend 1 hr getting ready (shower, shave, iron clothes, pack). Spend 0-60 mins getting to the airport, and 5-15 mins getting to the gate. Notice how none of this accounts for things like eating food or just having down time to read, watch TV, make phone calls, etc. Do the math in a worst case scenario and see that FAs (and even pilots with 10 hrs!) don't get enough "rest". I personally think that if the FAA is going to use a low standard of 8 or 10 hrs, then that time ought to start when you get to your hotel room, not after the aircraft door opens. In the USAF, we had 12 hrs and that started when at the hotel.

Think about the effects on people who are perpetually getting less than 8 hrs of sleep every day. Also keep in mind that pilots and FAs frequently have to switch from getting up really early to staying up all night for a red-eye. You perpetually swap between day/night or in between trip pairings.

Compare this to people who work in just about any other industry. Most people get 8 hr work days, 5 days per week. That's 16 hrs to yourself to commute, exercise, have family time, study, entertain, etc. I'm not a fan of paying FAs too much because it's still an unskilled, uneducated job requiring no prior experience, but it does treat FAs as non-human sometimes. We really need to give FAs at least 10 hrs of rest beginning at the hotel doors.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the new duty rules were 8 hours behind the door?

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:36 pm
by slider
ECAMerror wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Delta always fighting against anything good for the workers. Immoral and unethical anti labor company with the dirtiest practices to make sure their employees don't unionize.


And yet their employees are among the happiest and best compensated in the industry...weird.


I'm a pilot at a major airline and I don't usually defend FAs but I will in this case. 8 hrs of rest is INSANE. I don't think most people here understand that 8 hrs begins even while they are still technically working. FAs are no longer paid once the door closes or opens to disembark passengers. Airlines will add a small number of minutes after door opening time from where "rest" starts. This is usually 10-20 minutes, depending on airline. That's where the problem starts. Passengers are usually still onboard the aircraft while their rest period of 8 hrs started. Then it takes 5-15 minutes to walk out to the airport shuttle, then you wait another 0-45 minutes for a shuttle, then another 5-60 minutes to drive to the hotel, then another 10 minutes to check in, then another 30-60 mins to get ready for bed. The next duty period (notice, I didn't say "day"), you get up 2:30 hrs prior to your "report" time at the gate. Spend 1 hr getting ready (shower, shave, iron clothes, pack). Spend 0-60 mins getting to the airport, and 5-15 mins getting to the gate. Notice how none of this accounts for things like eating food or just having down time to read, watch TV, make phone calls, etc. Do the math in a worst case scenario and see that FAs (and even pilots with 10 hrs!) don't get enough "rest". I personally think that if the FAA is going to use a low standard of 8 or 10 hrs, then that time ought to start when you get to your hotel room, not after the aircraft door opens. In the USAF, we had 12 hrs and that started when at the hotel.

Think about the effects on people who are perpetually getting less than 8 hrs of sleep every day. Also keep in mind that pilots and FAs frequently have to switch from getting up really early to staying up all night for a red-eye. You perpetually swap between day/night or in between trip pairings.

Compare this to people who work in just about any other industry. Most people get 8 hr work days, 5 days per week. That's 16 hrs to yourself to commute, exercise, have family time, study, entertain, etc. I'm not a fan of paying FAs too much because it's still an unskilled, uneducated job requiring no prior experience, but it does treat FAs as non-human sometimes. We really need to give FAs at least 10 hrs of rest beginning at the hotel doors.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the new duty rules were 8 hours behind the door?

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:51 pm
by CobaltScar
slider wrote:
ECAMerror wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the new duty rules were 8 hours behind the door?


The one that was passed into law in Oct and has been ignored by the FAA since? Its 10 hours minimum rest from release of duty to report for next duty. Does not say anything about the time taken to get to the hotel. I assume the extra 2 hours (from current 8 hours to supposed to be current!! new 10 hours) now at least gives the FAs a hour to get to hotel, eat and get ready for bed and then a hour to do the reverse the next day after 8 hours sleeping.

Very humane, and to think airlines and the FAA are delaying this so FAs get far less than 8 hours to sleep between shifts is incorrigible.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:56 pm
by 0newair0
This thread should be closed. Delta is not fighting against the rest regulations. Delta is simply waiting on the finalization like everyone else.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:21 am
by lightsaber
ECAMerror wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Delta always fighting against anything good for the workers. Immoral and unethical anti labor company with the dirtiest practices to make sure their employees don't unionize.


And yet their employees are among the happiest and best compensated in the industry...weird.


I'm a pilot at a major airline and I don't usually defend FAs but I will in this case. 8 hrs of rest is INSANE. I don't think most people here understand that 8 hrs begins even while they are still technically working. FAs are no longer paid once the door closes or opens to disembark passengers. Airlines will add a small number of minutes after door opening time from where "rest" starts. This is usually 10-20 minutes, depending on airline. That's where the problem starts. Passengers are usually still onboard the aircraft while their rest period of 8 hrs started. Then it takes 5-15 minutes to walk out to the airport shuttle, then you wait another 0-45 minutes for a shuttle, then another 5-60 minutes to drive to the hotel, then another 10 minutes to check in, then another 30-60 mins to get ready for bed. The next duty period (notice, I didn't say "day"), you get up 2:30 hrs prior to your "report" time at the gate. Spend 1 hr getting ready (shower, shave, iron clothes, pack). Spend 0-60 mins getting to the airport, and 5-15 mins getting to the gate. Notice how none of this accounts for things like eating food or just having down time to read, watch TV, make phone calls, etc. Do the math in a worst case scenario and see that FAs (and even pilots with 10 hrs!) don't get enough "rest". I personally think that if the FAA is going to use a low standard of 8 or 10 hrs, then that time ought to start when you get to your hotel room, not after the aircraft door opens. In the USAF, we had 12 hrs and that started when at the hotel.

Think about the effects on people who are perpetually getting less than 8 hrs of sleep every day. Also keep in mind that pilots and FAs frequently have to switch from getting up really early to staying up all night for a red-eye. You perpetually swap between day/night or in between trip pairings.

Compare this to people who work in just about any other industry. Most people get 8 hr work days, 5 days per week. That's 16 hrs to yourself to commute, exercise, have family time, study, entertain, etc. I'm not a fan of paying FAs too much because it's still an unskilled, uneducated job requiring no prior experience, but it does treat FAs as non-human sometimes. We really need to give FAs at least 10 hrs of rest beginning at the hotel doors.

People need 8 hours of sleep.
Excercise
Meals
Use the lavatory...

10 hours is a minimum.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:24 pm
by slider
CobaltScar wrote:
slider wrote:
ECAMerror wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the new duty rules were 8 hours behind the door?


The one that was passed into law in Oct and has been ignored by the FAA since? Its 10 hours minimum rest from release of duty to report for next duty. Does not say anything about the time taken to get to the hotel. I assume the extra 2 hours (from current 8 hours to supposed to be current!! new 10 hours) now at least gives the FAs a hour to get to hotel, eat and get ready for bed and then a hour to do the reverse the next day after 8 hours sleeping.

Very humane, and to think airlines and the FAA are delaying this so FAs get far less than 8 hours to sleep between shifts is incorrigible.


OK, thanks for the added color there. I thought UA in particular was already going with 8 hours *behind the door* for rest, not counting the hotel shuttles, deplaning, etc, etc. As we all know, some cities have longer transit times than others, shuttles run late, and so on. All of that chips away at the spirit of the rule to enable crewmembers to actually get rest. And to your point--it's absolutely true that few of us can just slamclick and immediately zonk out.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:06 am
by n7371f
Would have a lot more credence if it weren't the AFA doing the complaining. Already 0-2 at Delta.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:40 pm
by flyfresno
lightsaber wrote:
ECAMerror wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:

And yet their employees are among the happiest and best compensated in the industry...weird.


I'm a pilot at a major airline and I don't usually defend FAs but I will in this case. 8 hrs of rest is INSANE. I don't think most people here understand that 8 hrs begins even while they are still technically working. FAs are no longer paid once the door closes or opens to disembark passengers. Airlines will add a small number of minutes after door opening time from where "rest" starts. This is usually 10-20 minutes, depending on airline. That's where the problem starts. Passengers are usually still onboard the aircraft while their rest period of 8 hrs started. Then it takes 5-15 minutes to walk out to the airport shuttle, then you wait another 0-45 minutes for a shuttle, then another 5-60 minutes to drive to the hotel, then another 10 minutes to check in, then another 30-60 mins to get ready for bed. The next duty period (notice, I didn't say "day"), you get up 2:30 hrs prior to your "report" time at the gate. Spend 1 hr getting ready (shower, shave, iron clothes, pack). Spend 0-60 mins getting to the airport, and 5-15 mins getting to the gate. Notice how none of this accounts for things like eating food or just having down time to read, watch TV, make phone calls, etc. Do the math in a worst case scenario and see that FAs (and even pilots with 10 hrs!) don't get enough "rest". I personally think that if the FAA is going to use a low standard of 8 or 10 hrs, then that time ought to start when you get to your hotel room, not after the aircraft door opens. In the USAF, we had 12 hrs and that started when at the hotel.

Think about the effects on people who are perpetually getting less than 8 hrs of sleep every day. Also keep in mind that pilots and FAs frequently have to switch from getting up really early to staying up all night for a red-eye. You perpetually swap between day/night or in between trip pairings.

Compare this to people who work in just about any other industry. Most people get 8 hr work days, 5 days per week. That's 16 hrs to yourself to commute, exercise, have family time, study, entertain, etc. I'm not a fan of paying FAs too much because it's still an unskilled, uneducated job requiring no prior experience, but it does treat FAs as non-human sometimes. We really need to give FAs at least 10 hrs of rest beginning at the hotel doors.

People need 8 hours of sleep.
Excercise
Meals
Use the lavatory...

10 hours is a minimum.


Haha, exercise and meals? Unless you count something hurriedly scarfed down on the hotel shuttle, or your hotel is in the terminal (which a few are, but not many) 10 hours isn't even enough time for those two things. Once you subtract walking out to the curb, transportation to the hotel, check-in, and then the reverse back to the airport, 10 hours usually means 9 hours or less in the hotel room. Add in things like showering and other personal care tasks, and you are lucky to get 8-8.5 hours in bed with a 10 hour layover, without eating or exercising. So, yes, 10 hours should be the absolute minimum. I certainly want the flight attendants on my flight to be well rested if we should need to be evacuated, or some other emergency arises...

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:24 pm
by questions
I would like to see a simple table — airlines down the columns; work rules, pay and benefits across the rows — comparing Delta FA’s to their US airlines unionized counterparts.

I bet the net net is those unionized FA’s are NOT any better off and that the only ones to benefit from Delta FA’s unionizing are... the union!

I agree however that the FA’s need better rest rules.

Re: Delta allegedly lobbying against new FAA rest rule for cabin crew

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:31 pm
by GVP
The MIT Airline Data project proves you wrong. WN, UA and AA outpace their DL counterparts on total compensation.

And they don’t have a Social Security offset like DL dies upon retirement

Only thing DL has better is profit sharing.