ronmk1986
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Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:53 am

Cathay Pacific officially ordered 21 Boeing 777-9Xs.

However, CX also ordered 20 A350-1000s and already received 11 of those.

If I compared Singapore Airlines, another airline ordered both Airbus A350s and Boeing 777Xs, as SQ only has A350-900s, their A350s' missions will rarely duplicate the future jobs reserved for their upcoming 777-9Xs (like Boeing 777-200ER covers different routes to 777-300ER).

To me,even though B777-9X takes more passengers than A350-1000, having both A350-1000s and B777-9X seems a fleet duplication for CX. It does not look like an airline having both B777-200ER and B777-300ER (or both A330-200 and A330-300).
 
Ebmek
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:11 am

The short answer is, they need the extra capacity that the 777X will offer in addition to keeping their first class cabin, since none of the -1000s will have a first class cabin. The 777X's will be deployed only to high yield destinations that need the premium traffic in addition to the capacity that the 777X will offer such as LHR, LAX, JFK etc. It's essentially filling a void that was left over when the B747s left without going for the VLA's such as the 747-8 and or the A380.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:52 am

ronmk1986 wrote:
Cathay Pacific officially ordered 21 Boeing 777-9Xs.

However, CX also ordered 20 A350-1000s and already received 11 of those.

If I compared Singapore Airlines, another airline ordered both Airbus A350s and Boeing 777Xs, as SQ only has A350-900s, their A350s' missions will rarely duplicate the future jobs reserved for their upcoming 777-9Xs (like Boeing 777-200ER covers different routes to 777-300ER).

To me,even though B777-9X takes more passengers than A350-1000, having both A350-1000s and B777-9X seems a fleet duplication for CX. It does not look like an airline having both B777-200ER and B777-300ER (or both A330-200 and A330-300).


CX, BA, EY and QR all have the 777X and A35K on order, I think the answer is that they can both work, especially since many airlines will have the A359 and 777X together anyway (LH + SQ as well).
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:58 am

Many airlines are positioning the A35K as downmarket from the 777-9X in the sense that it won't feature first class.
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seabosdca
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:12 am

Every airline that has ordered the 777-9 except ANA also has A350s in the fleet or on order, and most of them have -1000s.

The 777-9 is expected to have enough additional payload range to make the two aircraft suitable for somewhat different missions. It seems most operators are planning to use the 777-9 on long routes (14 to 17 hours) and to equip it with heavily premium configurations. These operators are putting the A350-1000s in slightly less premium configurations and using them on somewhat shorter routes, up to 14-15 hours. It will be interesting to see whether that pattern holds when both aircraft have been in service for a year or two.
 
lutfi
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:41 am

Very simply - the A35K for CX will replace the 3 class B773ER, and the 777X the 4 class B773ER. With the issue that one of CX most premium heavy routes (JFK) needs plenty of payload/ range.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:04 am

It is interesting that the 316T A350-1000 had much greater range than the 777-9X on the charts. Yet the 777-9X is planned to go on the longer routes.

So the 777-9X will fly with a low density premium cabin on longer routes and the A350-1000 will have a denser cabin on slightly shorter routes.

This is the opposite that I would have expected. The only explanation I can think of is that the 777X wing despite being heavy provides excellent long range fuel burn. The heavy wing reduces efficiency on short routes.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:16 am

RJMAZ wrote:
This is the opposite that I would have expected. The only explanation I can think of is that the 777X wing despite being heavy provides excellent long range fuel burn. The heavy wing reduces efficiency on short routes.


We've also heard occasionally that the A350-1000's chord extension without a span extension results in a not-quite-optimal aspect ratio. Seems the decision to go big with the 777X wing and deal with the hassle of the folding tips paid off, and was probably the only way to eke out an advantage at long range.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:19 am

Will CX’s 777X have the 9-abreast layout in coach like their current 777s?
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Qantas94Heavy
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:38 am

ro1960 wrote:
Will CX’s 777X have the 9-abreast layout in coach like their current 777s?


Certainly not, they are already more than halfway through retrofitting their entire 777 fleet with 10 abreast.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:49 am

ro1960 wrote:
Will CX’s 777X have the 9-abreast layout in coach like their current 777s?

CX has converted a number of their 777s to 10-abreast starting last year so there’s a good chance the 777X will also be 10 across in economy.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:22 am

seabosdca wrote:

We've also heard occasionally that the A350-1000's chord extension without a span extension results in a not-quite-optimal aspect ratio.


Actually, the A35K is better off with the increased chord length. Its range and performance increased with it. (Otherwise Airbus would not have gone with it, don’t you think). A reduction in aspect ratio is meaningless in this point as long as the span is kept the same.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:28 am

It's simple.
Like BA, QR and EY, they don't know what they're doing. Running a subfleet of B777X doesn't make sense when you already have the A350-1000 in the fleet and vice versa.

Poor fleet planning to go with poor network planning. Too much beer flowing at CX HQ, courtesy of their failed beer destinations.

Ah well, they will worry about it at the next downturn when they'll have to tighten their belt around the beer belly.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:35 am

I suspect it is not CX management (or that of LH, BA, SQ, or EK) that have been consuming too much beer. :drunk:
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:40 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
It's simple.
Like BA, QR and EY, they don't know what they're doing. Running a subfleet of B777X doesn't make sense when you already have the A350-1000 in the fleet and vice versa.

Poor fleet planning to go with poor network planning. Too much beer flowing at CX HQ, courtesy of their failed beer destinations.

Ah well, they will worry about it at the next downturn when they'll have to tighten their belt around the beer belly.



If a joke, this is still not as funny as it'd be if you were being serious.
 
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vhqpa
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:57 am

Well lucky for them they all check on a.net and identify where they have gone wrong and change their fleet plans accordingly...
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:22 am

seabosdca wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
This is the opposite that I would have expected. The only explanation I can think of is that the 777X wing despite being heavy provides excellent long range fuel burn. The heavy wing reduces efficiency on short routes.


We've also heard occasionally that the A350-1000's chord extension without a span extension results in a not-quite-optimal aspect ratio. Seems the decision to go big with the 777X wing and deal with the hassle of the folding tips paid off, and was probably the only way to eke out an advantage at long range.


This sub optimal aspect ratio wing sure seems to be working given a35k operators are seeing 6.6-6.8t of fuel burn per hour on very long high payload flights. The a35k will shortly be flying on doh-dfw, hkg-yyz and doh-syd- all ultra long ranged routes.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:57 am

Having both the 359 and 35K in similar configurations also allows for much greater flexibility on routes with variable or seasonal demand.

Subbing a 35K for a 359 or vice-versa can be done quite easily and at short notice.
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:33 am

I think the 779s are mainly there for the extra payload (CX does a lot of freight). They might like the few extra passengers, but I think they probably would have kept to the a35k if their main concern was passengers.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:49 am

Pcoder wrote:
I think the 779s are mainly there for the extra payload (CX does a lot of freight). They might like the few extra passengers, but I think they probably would have kept to the a35k if their main concern was passengers.


The 779 has slightly more floor space than an A35K,
The 779 will have F while the A35K won’t, the A35K will likely imo have a few more seats overall, 334 vs 310/320?
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:24 am

Seems like the 777-9 is the closest CX
can get to an efficient 744 replacement
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:21 am

Surely as the 779 is longer, heavier and has a wider fuselage than the A3510, it complements it rather than being a direct rival

Indeed Boeing and Airbus have been quite clever really in making sure that their wide bodies don't directly compete and thus avoiding the bloodbath if all their products were direct rivals. Yes they still compete, but most major airline groups will end up purchasing the 787, A350 and 779
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:35 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
It's simple.
Like BA, QR and EY, they don't know what they're doing. Running a subfleet of B777X doesn't make sense when you already have the A350-1000 in the fleet and vice versa.

Poor fleet planning to go with poor network planning. Too much beer flowing at CX HQ, courtesy of their failed beer destinations.

Ah well, they will worry about it at the next downturn when they'll have to tighten their belt around the beer belly.

Agreed, every airline in the world should standardize to Airbus products. Those who have ordered 777X's should cancel their orders immediately and order A350-1000s instead. It's the only chance they have to be profitable. Oh, and they should approach Airbus to reverse their decision to close the A380 line and order those in dozens. That would make them even more profitable :banghead:
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:50 am

As mentioned the 77X is mostly for first class and very high density routes, so it really comes as an A380 & 747 replacement. It is an interesting aircraft but as experienced by Airbus with the A380 the number of operators and number of units can be quite limited. I think the A350-1000 is much better placed to replace most 777-300ER to more airlines. We will see.
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:18 am

As Lufthansa has shown us there are many layers to the long haul onion, especially with their 748. Cathay has needs requiring the two different airplanes some for which the A350-1000 is better and those the 777-9 is better. These days it seems everyone loves the A350-1000 and the 777 stinks, remember many 77W were delivered after 2010, the fleet is young so sales of the 777-9 are coming slowly.

Many A350's are replacing 744 and early 777-200ER not the 77W, as many here love to point out. In Cathay's case many A350 flights are replacing larger 77W flying to secondary European cities where they are better sized for those markets. Singapore is using their regular A350 fleet on quite a diverse variety of missions including a nonstop to San Francisco taking 16 hours. The A350 is definitely a great success for Airbus, the next all new long haul plane will come from Seattle.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:23 pm

yuomi wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
It's simple.
Like BA, QR and EY, they don't know what they're doing. Running a subfleet of B777X doesn't make sense when you already have the A350-1000 in the fleet and vice versa.

Poor fleet planning to go with poor network planning. Too much beer flowing at CX HQ, courtesy of their failed beer destinations.

Ah well, they will worry about it at the next downturn when they'll have to tighten their belt around the beer belly.



If a joke, this is still not as funny as it'd be if you were being serious.

I have good news for you then, assuming you like to laugh.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:45 pm

ro1960 wrote:
Will CX’s 777X have the 9-abreast layout in coach like their current 777s?

The 777x is just a bit wider to allow for 18inch seats at 10 across, so everyone will likely configure it in that configuration
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:03 pm

HKG is slot constrained, SIN isn't, which justifies CX having slightly higher capacity aircraft than SQ.
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:19 pm

zkojq wrote:
HKG is slot constrained, SIN isn't, which justifies CX having slightly higher capacity aircraft than SQ.


By the time 777X really comes into the fleet in large number (They don't come in until 2021, and even then, it's not like CX is going to get all 21 779 at the same time), HKG slot situation will be much better. The 3rd runway is tentatively suppose to be completed by 2023 (Although, knowing Hong Kong's infrastructure record lately, a delay of 2 years is almost a given).

Ultimately, the 777X is the long-term replacement for the 77W. Like other said - it'll serve as the "flagship" plane flying to places like LHR, LAX, SFO, and JFK (as 779X is getting F); while A359/A35K will be more of a "workhorse" that flys everywhere.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:06 pm

The question of 77W replacement is an interesting one because of timing.

The bulk of 77W replacements will happen starting in the mid-2020s. With the versions currently on the market, the competition would mostly be about whether airlines want to grow capacity a bit or stay the same. In that environment, the 779 would have good chances--slow and steady upgauging has often worked well for airlines. But the wild card is a potential A350 re-engine in the late 2020s. The 779 would have a hard time competing with a re-engined A350, especially if it is also stretched just a bit.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:59 pm

Pcoder wrote:
I think the 779s are mainly there for the extra payload (CX does a lot of freight). They might like the few extra passengers, but I think they probably would have kept to the a35k if their main concern was passengers.


Without an MTOW increase over the 77W or a lower empty weight over the current projections, the 777-9X will not have better payload/range than the A35K. It will offer a bigger cabin tho. So more seats to boost efficiency per seat.
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:15 pm

Well Boeing planes usually have better payload/range than Airbus ones. If Zeke can answer, I read here that Delta is pissed their A350-900XWB with 306 seats can't fly full payload LAX-SYD (which is shorter than HKG-IAD) due to south-bound headwinds. This is even after DL upped all their A350's to 275t. CX's A359 only hold 280 seats. Does 36 seats really matter with their luggage on a route like LAX-SYD (no polar but south-bound headwinds).
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:26 pm

a better combo would be 777-9x and A330-900
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:50 pm

x1234 wrote:
Well Boeing planes usually have better payload/range than Airbus ones. If Zeke can answer, I read here that Delta is pissed their A350-900XWB with 306 seats can't fly full payload LAX-SYD (which is shorter than HKG-IAD) due to south-bound headwinds. This is even after DL upped all their A350's to 275t. CX's A359 only hold 280 seats. Does 36 seats really matter with their luggage on a route like LAX-SYD (no polar but south-bound headwinds).


Important to note that at first, HKG-IAD was originally on an A350-1000, but is now on an A350-900.

Back to the topic, how many seats can we expect Cathay to put in their 777-9's?
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seabosdca
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:26 pm

x1234 wrote:
Well Boeing planes usually have better payload/range than Airbus ones. If Zeke can answer, I read here that Delta is pissed their A350-900XWB with 306 seats can't fly full payload LAX-SYD (which is shorter than HKG-IAD) due to south-bound headwinds. This is even after DL upped all their A350's to 275t. CX's A359 only hold 280 seats. Does 36 seats really matter with their luggage on a route like LAX-SYD (no polar but south-bound headwinds).


My impression was that the problem was solved with the 275 t upgrade.

26 seats is about 3 t for payload plus the seats themselves. That's about half an hour of range for an A350-900.
 
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AECM
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:28 pm

Currently Cathay B77W with First have the following configuration:

F6C53W34Y201 with 10 abreast in economy
F6C53W34Y182 with 9 abreast in economy

I wouldn't be surprise if the B779 get a cabin similar to the A35K but adding first
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:32 am

mig17 wrote:
Pcoder wrote:
I think the 779s are mainly there for the extra payload (CX does a lot of freight). They might like the few extra passengers, but I think they probably would have kept to the a35k if their main concern was passengers.


Without an MTOW increase over the 77W or a lower empty weight over the current projections, the 777-9X will not have better payload/range than the A35K. It will offer a bigger cabin tho. So more seats to boost efficiency per seat.


They can boost the "efficiency per seat" with the A350-1000 without having to carry more seats.

There is no additional capability that justifies ordering the B777X recently alongside an already existing fleet of A350-1000 and a huge fleet of 50 A350's.
Why didn't they order the required number of A350K's or options back in 2012?
Must have been one hell of a deal, a poor decision, or something is terribly wrong with the current Airbus sales department.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:05 am

x1234 wrote:
Well Boeing planes usually have better payload/range than Airbus ones. If Zeke can answer, I read here that Delta is pissed their A350-900XWB with 306 seats can't fly full payload LAX-SYD (which is shorter than HKG-IAD) due to south-bound headwinds. This is even after DL upped all their A350's to 275t. CX's A359 only hold 280 seats. Does 36 seats really matter with their luggage on a route like LAX-SYD (no polar but south-bound headwinds).


There is absolutely zero indication that Delta is 'pissed' that their A359s can't fly LAX-SYD with the payload they want. Nothing's stopping them from ordering higher MTOW A350s or increasing it for ones they have. This is an urban rumour based on absolutely nothing, and it refuses to die. Using a different aircraft on a route is NOT confirmation that one plane can't do the mission.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:17 am

AirbusA6 wrote:
Indeed Boeing and Airbus have been quite clever really in making sure that their wide bodies don't directly compete and thus avoiding the bloodbath if all their products were direct rivals. Yes they still compete, but most major airline groups will end up purchasing the 787, A350 and 779

I disagree.

The 787 targetted the A330 directly. The 787-8 and 787-9 match the A330-200/800 and A330-300/900 in size. Cabin areas are within 1% and weights are within a couple of percent. The 787 carries the same payload with considerably less fuel burn. It is a bloodbath for the A330. The A330NEO was not enough it should have moved away from the 787. This was hard with the A350 sitting just above, the best option would have been to go smaller with a lighter, smaller, higher aspect ratio wing centred around the A330-200 fuselage length.

Likewise the A350 has targetted the 777 directly. The A350-900ULR closely matchs the 777-200LR and the A350-1000 matchs the 777-300ER. Considerably less fuel burn for any given payload. The 777W sales would have dried up, a simple 777NEO wouldnt have stood a chance so Boeing moved the 777X away from the A350 and did a stretch, a rewing and a NEO.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:21 am

Article is behind a pay wall.

The CEO of Cathay Pacific says Boeing's new 777X is the logical choice for the Hong Kong airline as it modernizes its long-haul fleet. CEO Rupert Hogg suggested to The Business Journal the carrier might buy more than the first batch of 21 it ordered in 2013, when 777X was launched.
Cathay Pacific CEO Rupert Hogg had an upfront look at 777X - Puget ...

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... -hogg.html
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:30 am

frigatebird wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
It's simple.
Like BA, QR and EY, they don't know what they're doing. Running a subfleet of B777X doesn't make sense when you already have the A350-1000 in the fleet and vice versa.

Poor fleet planning to go with poor network planning. Too much beer flowing at CX HQ, courtesy of their failed beer destinations.

Ah well, they will worry about it at the next downturn when they'll have to tighten their belt around the beer belly.

Agreed, every airline in the world should standardize to Airbus products. Those who have ordered 777X's should cancel their orders immediately and order A350-1000s instead. It's the only chance they have to be profitable. Oh, and they should approach Airbus to reverse their decision to close the A380 line and order those in dozens. That would make them even more profitable :banghead:

You're kidding right? I think it's about damn time Boeing and Airbus got into market segments. Boeing does what they do and Airbus does what they do. Airbus would waste a damn LOT of money trying to "Out Boeing" Boeing with a 777X copy. The A350 will be a workhorse airplane doing what it does but the 777X was specifically built for Long range and "Bigtime" belly Freight.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:41 am

RJMAZ wrote:
AirbusA6 wrote:
Indeed Boeing and Airbus have been quite clever really in making sure that their wide bodies don't directly compete and thus avoiding the bloodbath if all their products were direct rivals. Yes they still compete, but most major airline groups will end up purchasing the 787, A350 and 779

I disagree.

The 787 targetted the A330 directly. The 787-8 and 787-9 match the A330-200/800 and A330-300/900 in size. Cabin areas are within 1% and weights are within a couple of percent. The 787 carries the same payload with considerably less fuel burn. It is a bloodbath for the A330. The A330NEO was not enough it should have moved away from the 787. This was hard with the A350 sitting just above, the best option would have been to go smaller with a lighter, smaller, higher aspect ratio wing centred around the A330-200 fuselage length.

Likewise the A350 has targetted the 777 directly. The A350-900ULR closely matchs the 777-200LR and the A350-1000 matchs the 777-300ER. Considerably less fuel burn for any given payload. The 777W sales would have dried up, a simple 777NEO wouldnt have stood a chance so Boeing moved the 777X away from the A350 and did a stretch, a rewing and a NEO.

I disagree with you. The Airbus A350-900 is similarly sized with the Boeing 777-200ER, but cannot match the B77L’s capabilities, referring to payload and range. Same thing with the Airbus A350-1000, which happens to be smaller than a Boeing 777-300ER.
 
hz747300
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:56 am

Qantas94Heavy wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
Will CX’s 777X have the 9-abreast layout in coach like their current 777s?


Certainly not, they are already more than halfway through retrofitting their entire 777 fleet with 10 abreast.


Sucks too. I suppose I could lose weight though.

Did CX take the mid-air refueling option on their A35K's?
Keep on truckin'...
 
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zeke
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:27 am

RJMAZ wrote:
It is interesting that the 316T A350-1000 had much greater range than the 777-9X on the charts. Yet the 777-9X is planned to go on the longer routes.

So the 777-9X will fly with a low density premium cabin on longer routes and the A350-1000 will have a denser cabin on slightly shorter routes.

This is the opposite that I would have expected. The only explanation I can think of is that the 777X wing despite being heavy provides excellent long range fuel burn. The heavy wing reduces efficiency on short routes.


IAD started with the -1000 and will be the longest route for some time. -900 and -1000s can be swapped at any time on the SH/MH/LH/ULH network as they both have the range needed for our entire network.

Airlines0613 wrote:
I disagree with you. The Airbus A350-900 is similarly sized with the Boeing 777-200ER, but cannot match the B77L’s capabilities, referring to payload and range. Same thing with the Airbus A350-1000, which happens to be smaller than a Boeing 777-300ER.


The A350-900 does very well compared to the 77L considering it would be 70,000 kg lighter than a 77L at MTOW.

The A350-1000 lifts about 8,000 kg more maximum payload than the 77W, and goes further, faster, and with around 20% less fuel.
Last edited by zeke on Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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zeke
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:32 am

strfyr51 wrote:
You're kidding right? I think it's about damn time Boeing and Airbus got into market segments. Boeing does what they do and Airbus does what they do. Airbus would waste a damn LOT of money trying to "Out Boeing" Boeing with a 777X copy. The A350 will be a workhorse airplane doing what it does but the 777X was specifically built for Long range and "Bigtime" belly Freight.


Airbus will have a longer A350 in around 5 years with a different engine to the Trent XWB. There is absolutely nothing to suggest from Boeing or Airbus that their offerings in the market segment are stagnant.
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Etheereal
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:53 am

strfyr51 wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
It's simple.
Like BA, QR and EY, they don't know what they're doing. Running a subfleet of B777X doesn't make sense when you already have the A350-1000 in the fleet and vice versa.

Poor fleet planning to go with poor network planning. Too much beer flowing at CX HQ, courtesy of their failed beer destinations.

Ah well, they will worry about it at the next downturn when they'll have to tighten their belt around the beer belly.

Agreed, every airline in the world should standardize to Airbus products. Those who have ordered 777X's should cancel their orders immediately and order A350-1000s instead. It's the only chance they have to be profitable. Oh, and they should approach Airbus to reverse their decision to close the A380 line and order those in dozens. That would make them even more profitable :banghead:

You're kidding right? I think it's about damn time Boeing and Airbus got into market segments. Boeing does what they do and Airbus does what they do. Airbus would waste a damn LOT of money trying to "Out Boeing" Boeing with a 777X copy. The A350 will be a workhorse airplane doing what it does but the 777X was specifically built for Long range and "Bigtime" belly Freight.

If you havent noticed, frigate is being sarcastic towards Waterbomber.
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GearShaft5
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:34 am

There are several CX pilots and Flight Attendants in the gym that I go to. Recent feedback is that 777-9x will be deployed on the CX first-tier premium routes e.g.London, New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago. A350-900 and A350-1000 split between established regional and long haul "brand re-enforcement" routes opened recently like Tel Aviv, Madrid, Dublin, Barcelona, Brussels.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:58 am

The marketplace will decide these issues, not keyboard warriors on a-net. I remember the debates regarding the A340 vs the 777. Many claimed the A340 was the superior aircraft. The market said different.

The 777x has not yet flown revenue service. Carriers like CX will quickly learn which frame is superior for a variety of missions, be it the A351 or the 779. I suspect both will sell well with the A351 fulfilling a role as a 77W replacement while the 779 takes the crown at the top of the VLA market.

I know the A350 family is solid. I suspect the 777X aircraft will be much better than Boeing is indicating. The 777 certainly exceeded expectations to say the least. It buried the 747, A340, and A380. Absolutely killed those aircraft. I see no reason to underestimate the 777X. I think it will be a remarkable frame.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:02 am

RJMAZ wrote:
AirbusA6 wrote:
Indeed Boeing and Airbus have been quite clever really in making sure that their wide bodies don't directly compete and thus avoiding the bloodbath if all their products were direct rivals. Yes they still compete, but most major airline groups will end up purchasing the 787, A350 and 779

I disagree.

The 787 targetted the A330 directly. The 787-8 and 787-9 match the A330-200/800 and A330-300/900 in size. Cabin areas are within 1% and weights are within a couple of percent. The 787 carries the same payload with considerably less fuel burn. It is a bloodbath for the A330.


I'd somewhat disagree to an extent. The 787 is in the same size category but NOT the same range category. The 787 invented a new market segment... the long-haul mid-size widebody.

Additionally, the 787 was essentially a move in which Airbus and Boeing 'traded' market segments. The former mid-size widebody (the A330) became replaced by the 787, but the reigning large long-range widebody of the time (777) eventually is being replaced primarily by the A350.

Yes, the A330 is still around and the neo program is a thing (although its relatively marginal). But I don't think its wrong to treat Boeing and Airbus as "avoiding direct competition." To an extent this is precisely what occurs, and its in the self-interest of both parties because it preserves monopoly rents across various market segments.

Even with the narrowbody jets, the competition isn't exactly direct: the 738 is larger than the A320neo, and the A321neo is capable of longer trips than the 737-10. At the largest end of the market, the A350 is smaller than the 777X and plenty of airlines have ordered both the A350-1000 and 777-9.

The closest thing to direct competition the duopolists are engaging in is in the midsize segment (A330neo vs. 787), but the A330neo generally can't compete except for either LCCs or airlines where 787s are Too Much Plane, and the 251t A330neo variants seem to have generated little interest.

Do we see Airbus and Boeing simultaneously working on new aircraft programs in the same market segment? Not really except perhaps in the narrowbody realm. The NSA fills a gap that neither the A330neo or 787 fill (midrange, small-to-medium widebody). There's non-negligible differentiation between the 737 MAX and A320neo lineups even.

As a general rule, the manufacturers differentiate their products. And that's okay; it gives a wider variety of airframes for a wider variety of missions, and we all know that neither of the two duopolists alone would be sufficient to keep the airlines well-supplied.
 
smartplane
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Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:21 am

x1234 wrote:
I read here that Delta is pissed their A350-900XWB with 306 seats can't fly full payload LAX-SYD (which is shorter than HKG-IAD) due to south-bound headwinds.

You did read it on another thread. But didn't you write it and start the post?

What was your source?

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