Aptivaboy
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Re: WN looking at A220

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:11 pm

If I was a shareholder I would be asking why is the airline is happy to pay over 15 billion more fuel costs over the 8 years where there are other options that will reduce both fuel and maintenance costs.


Every airplane type has a myriad of fixed and variable costs to go along with it. Aircraft acquisition costs are a huge part of the equation, as well. While I would love to see more C-Series in American skies, if the total cost package doesn't equate then Southwest won't buy them. I asked a similar question or point some years ago and a very friendly A-netter was kind enough to detail a large number of the costs and expenses that would be incurred in adopting a new fleet type, including things I had never heard of nor thought about. Sometimes, buying the newest, most fuel efficient bird actually isn't the most economical response. Look at Delta and their fleet of older yet mostly paid for airplanes, and how long Northwest operated their DC-9s.
 
SEU
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:09 pm

Does the MAX-7 have slightly higher capacity
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:26 pm

SEU wrote:
Does the MAX-7 have slightly higher capacity


MAX7 has a maximum capacity of 172 (at high density, 29 inches of seat pitch)

A220-100 has a maximum capacity of 135 (also high density)
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rufusmi
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:31 pm

Gulfstream500 wrote:
SEU wrote:
Does the MAX-7 have slightly higher capacity


MAX7 has a maximum capacity of 172 (at high density, 29 inches of seat pitch)

A220-100 has a maximum capacity of 135 (also high density)


A220-300 is 160 max
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:46 pm

rufusmi wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
SEU wrote:
Does the MAX-7 have slightly higher capacity


MAX7 has a maximum capacity of 172 (at high density, 29 inches of seat pitch)

A220-100 has a maximum capacity of 135 (also high density)


A220-300 is 160 max


Are they currently looking at the A220 in general, or just one???

Personally, I would think that they would go for the 100, because it has much more of a size difference from the MAX7.
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bob75013
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:49 pm

Gulfstream500 wrote:
rufusmi wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:

MAX7 has a maximum capacity of 172 (at high density, 29 inches of seat pitch)

A220-100 has a maximum capacity of 135 (also high density)


A220-300 is 160 max


Are they currently looking at the A220 in general, or just one???

Personally, I would think that they would go for the 100, because it has much more of a size difference from the MAX7.


WN isn't looking at ANY of them. Refer to post #121/

Mods should lock the thread as the premise is wrong -- as WN IS NOT looking at the A220.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:58 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
rufusmi wrote:

A220-300 is 160 max


Are they currently looking at the A220 in general, or just one???

Personally, I would think that they would go for the 100, because it has much more of a size difference from the MAX7.


WN isn't looking at ANY of them. Refer to post #121/

Mods should lock the thread as the premise is wrong -- as WN IS NOT looking at the A220.


I sense that you do not want them to take in the A220 - this is your opinion, and I will respect that. However, there are numerous articles in existence that point in the direction of them eventually buying the A220 or another non-737 airplane.

For a thread with 28,000 views and over 200 comments, I would think that there is something happening in the aviation community.

Will WN take the A220? Maybe. Is there a high chance of them ordering a non-boeing aircraft in the next few years? Probably only a 25% chance. But if they do, we all know the tariffs are going to come.
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KarlB737
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:04 pm

FATFlyer wrote:
Gary Kelly this morning added more for this thread to speculate around:

"We're an all Boeing 737 carrier," Kelly also said on CNBC, "That doesn't mean we'll be an all 737 carrier into perpetuity."
http://www.dallasnews.com/business/southwest-airlines/2019/04/25/southwest-posts-record-q1-revenuedespite-737-max-grounding-headaches


I look at this statement in a different way entirely. I interpret it to mean we will be a 737 carrier until Boeing quits making them. When you can no longer update/modify/re-engine the 737 anymore like they have been doing and it is decided to get out a clean sheet of paper or a clean computer screen.
 
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longhauler
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:05 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Mods should lock the thread as the premise is wrong -- as WN IS NOT looking at the A220.


You do know that locking the thread and jumping up an down claiming it isn't going to happen ... isn't going to stop it happening, don't you?

Southwest is under fiduciary responsibility to look at all options for increasing shareholder value. If the BOD has decided to ignore a yearly savings of over $1B, they better have a good reason why!

In my opinion, I am not saying Southwest will buy the A220, but ... I would certainly hope they gave it thought.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
PartsGuy20
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:29 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Care to explain what the Pilot Pay Rate has to do with Fuel Saving? Even if the pilots flew for free (which they don't), WN would still save $1.4b in fuel per year according to zeke switching to the A220.


If anything, if pilots flew for free they'd probably all be hungry, therefore they'd weigh less and it would increase fuel savings! :lol:
 
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keesje
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:55 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
rufusmi wrote:

A220-300 is 160 max


Are they currently looking at the A220 in general, or just one???

Personally, I would think that they would go for the 100, because it has much more of a size difference from the MAX7.


WN isn't looking at ANY of them. Refer to post #121/

Mods should lock the thread as the premise is wrong -- as WN IS NOT looking at the A220.


They visited, discussed with operator, flew it, but were NOT looking. Fine. Don't panic.

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2019/04/25/southwest-airlines-airbus.html
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
rufusmi
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:06 pm

Gulfstream500 wrote:
rufusmi wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:

MAX7 has a maximum capacity of 172 (at high density, 29 inches of seat pitch)

A220-100 has a maximum capacity of 135 (also high density)


A220-300 is 160 max


Are they currently looking at the A220 in general, or just one???

Personally, I would think that they would go for the 100, because it has much more of a size difference from the MAX7.


I think it’s much more likely that if they order the 220, it would be the 300, it’s pretty much a significantly more efficient 73G, and more efficient than the 37M.
 
many321
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:15 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
rufusmi wrote:

A220-300 is 160 max


Are they currently looking at the A220 in general, or just one???

Personally, I would think that they would go for the 100, because it has much more of a size difference from the MAX7.


WN isn't looking at ANY of them. Refer to post #121/

Mods should lock the thread as the premise is wrong -- as WN IS NOT looking at the A220.


Someone's apparently triggered. LOL!
 
vulindlela744
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:22 pm

I would definitely say they are looking. You don’t just send a delegation to Europe and speak with another airline if you aren’t interested. I’ve flown on the A220-100 with Swiss and it’s an awesome e airplane. Comfortable and quiet and the fuel saving are hard to ignore. So I think aren’t “looking” is incorrect. If they wait for an NMA from Boeing they’d be looking at 6-8 years before it even enters revenue service. And that’s if they announced it today
 
n562wn
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:50 pm

All in jest, but this felt appropriate for some of the comments on this thread.
Imagevia Imgflip Meme Generator
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
barney captain
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:14 pm

Gulfstream500 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:

Are they currently looking at the A220 in general, or just one???

Personally, I would think that they would go for the 100, because it has much more of a size difference from the MAX7.


WN isn't looking at ANY of them. Refer to post #121/

Mods should lock the thread as the premise is wrong -- as WN IS NOT looking at the A220.


I sense that you do not want them to take in the A220 - this is your opinion, and I will respect that. However, there are numerous articles in existence that point in the direction of them eventually buying the A220 or another non-737 airplane.

For a thread with 28,000 views and over 200 comments, I would think that there is something happening in the aviation community.

Will WN take the A220? Maybe. Is there a high chance of them ordering a non-boeing aircraft in the next few years? Probably only a 25% chance. But if they do, we all know the tariffs are going to come.


Frankly I get his frustration.

You have authors writing widely speculative articles based on a industry standard practice of "looking" - not buying - because it can somehow be tied to the MAX. These visits happen regularly, and wouldn't even be newsworthy without some ridiculous spin to the MAX.

In spite of that and the glaringly obvious point that Kelly has repeated explained it and has said "we're not buying anything but the 737 for the foreseeable future", with have a thread with "28.000 views and 200 comments" that seem to continue to ignore those facts.

SWA is NOT BUYING THE A220.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
n562wn
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WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:16 pm

barney captain wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

WN isn't looking at ANY of them. Refer to post #121/

Mods should lock the thread as the premise is wrong -- as WN IS NOT looking at the A220.


I sense that you do not want them to take in the A220 - this is your opinion, and I will respect that. However, there are numerous articles in existence that point in the direction of them eventually buying the A220 or another non-737 airplane.

For a thread with 28,000 views and over 200 comments, I would think that there is something happening in the aviation community.

Will WN take the A220? Maybe. Is there a high chance of them ordering a non-boeing aircraft in the next few years? Probably only a 25% chance. But if they do, we all know the tariffs are going to come.


Frankly I get his frustration.

You have authors writing widely speculative articles based on a industry standard practice of "looking" - not buying - because it can somehow be tied to the MAX. These visits happen regularly, and wouldn't even be newsworthy without some ridiculous spin to the MAX.

In spite of that and the glaringly obvious point that Kelly has repeated explained it and has said "we're not buying anything but the 737 for the foreseeable future", with have a thread with "28.000 views and 200 comments" that seem to continue to ignore those facts.

SWA is NOT BUYING THE A220.



I get that Barney, but it wasn't all that long ago that Kelly said Hawaii isn't a priority. So there's that.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
many321
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:22 pm

n562wn wrote:
All in jest, but this felt appropriate for some of the comments on this thread.
Imagevia Imgflip Meme Generator


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
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keesje
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:24 pm

SWA is not buying the A220-300, will keep it's 737 orders and keep operating Boeing aircraft for the foreseable future. They have an excellent long term relation with Boeing and have total confidence Boeing will solve the MAX issues.

And that's half the story and doesn't exclude them ordering other aircraft in the future.

https://www.inc.com/peter-economy/southwest-airlines-ceo-just-revealed-that-troubled-boeing-737-might-not-be-its-forever-plane.html

Just healthy competition.

PS Boeing didn't just look at A220, but visited her, tried her, and told Boeing he still loves her.
Last edited by keesje on Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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SocalApproach
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:30 pm

5 pages of a topic that isn't happening. :sarcastic:
 
oschkosch
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:39 pm

Well we all know how the saying goes right? Where there is amoke, there is fire! WN has now stressed multiple times they are "just looking". The more often they say it, the more it's clear they are more than just looking.

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sunking737
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:41 pm

I learned years ago, when it comes to the airlines...Don't believe any rumor, UNLESS its printed in the schedule or parked on the ramp...
"SUBJECT TO CHANGE" Even if its painted and parked on the ramp "SUBJECT TO CHANGE"
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
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keesje
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:52 pm

SWA will be an exclusive 737 operator until they aren't. Kelly says so.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Veigar
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:49 am

They look at the airplane to evaluate its capabilities given one of their competitors (DL) has them. That's how I interpret this "looking". I do not think WN is window shopping for a random airplane they will almost certainly not buy.

Boeing would do a lot of things before they lose WN as their customer; they are arguably their most important one.
 
WNCrew
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:41 am

When someone is HIGHLY reactive to any news that indicates change at WN, it says a lot to me. Namely, that they've spent most of their airline career ONLY at WN and if they were elsewhere prior it was in an airline job a bit more removed from the fray, like on the ramp/cargo/etc, or for a tiny regional that's all but gone. They'll tell you about their "outside experience" but it's only to give some credence to their "knowledge". They've been trained to think that anything outside the current WN status-quo is wrong and bad.... that is until WN convinces them that it's actually ok (think the merger with FL, or the -800, or Intl, or a new res system... [insert 20 other initiatives)] These are the same people who can't tell the difference between an A330 and 767 (muchless the -200/-300) because they ONLY know the 737.

Whether WN is or isn't actually looking into operating the A220... the fact that someone would stand up and say "ITS NOT HAPPENING" as if they knew every other decision that's been made before it was... speaks more of their own fears of the outside airline world and of change... than of anything else.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:51 am

Isn't this instance WN going to Airbus versus Airbus going to WN in the past? I don't know John Leahy's relationship with WN. I mean, I know he tried and continually failed, but wasn't that all on WN's turf?
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
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keesje
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:29 am

Southwest in my opinion will take all 737MAX orders as -8s from now.

I've seen a few interview with Kelly seems a good reliable guy.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Bricktop
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:25 pm

There is no production line or supply chain capable of supplying WN with A22Xs. They are pretty much full with the orders they have and are aiming to go to a whopping 14 a month by the mid-2020s per Bloomberg. They have a >400 frame backlog to deliver, so when exactly and how many frames are WN going to take? But it sure is fun in fanboy fantasyland. Back on planet earth though, please no breath holding.
 
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Revelation
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:11 pm

Gulfstream500 wrote:
I sense that you do not want them to take in the A220 - this is your opinion, and I will respect that. However, there are numerous articles in existence that point in the direction of them eventually buying the A220 or another non-737 airplane.

For a thread with 28,000 views and over 200 comments, I would think that there is something happening in the aviation community.

Or there is something a portion of the aviation community wants to see something happen and can't help their imaginations from running wild at the slightest suggestion of activity, kind of like royal wedding watchers going nuts every time a prince is seen with an eligible partner.

Your post reminds me of the old saying: Eat (manure), thousands of flies can't be wrong! :-)

"Numerous articles in existence" means very little other than numerous media outlets figured out how to get clicks.

The CEO is telling us exactly what is going on.

Unfortunately quotes like the ones in #121 don't generate clicks, nor do they resonate with those who lust to see Airbus sell something other than dreams to Southwest.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Yossarian22
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:28 pm

oschkosch wrote:
Well we all know how the saying goes right? Where there is amoke, there is fire! WN has now stressed multiple times they are "just looking". The more often they say it, the more it's clear they are more than just looking.

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The slogan of the 737-Max.
 
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keesje
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:38 pm

"So, that's who we are, that's where we are. That doesn't mean that we'll be an all-737 carrier into perpetuity. But that's certainly where we are right now"
.

Kelly, the day before yesterday. Any one trying to translate that into "W'll only order Boeing" & ignore the recent A220 visit is free to do so.

First the CSeries had no chance with SWA because Boeing would give hem an NSA deal they couldnt refuse. Then the 737-7 was the perfect match, then the 737-7 stretch was the perfect fit. When SWA postponed their -7s early 2018, the 737-8 was said to be all that is needed.

Now the MAX fleet is grounded and SWA's huge 737-700 fleet starts building up cycles. And Delta, Moxy and Jetblue will challenge them with A223 efficiency.

Oops, things changed. Now the more unconditional Boeing supporters fall back into "nothing to see here" "close the thread" when SWA is looking for operational feed back on the A220.

Telling IMO.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
bob75013
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:23 pm

longhauler wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Mods should lock the thread as the premise is wrong -- as WN IS NOT looking at the A220.


You do know that locking the thread and jumping up an down claiming it isn't going to happen ... isn't going to stop it happening, don't you?

Southwest is under fiduciary responsibility to look at all options for increasing shareholder value. If the BOD has decided to ignore a yearly savings of over $1B, they better have a good reason why!

In my opinion, I am not saying Southwest will buy the A220, but ... I would certainly hope they gave it thought.


My opinion about the matter is meaningless.WN's CEO's opinion is a totally different matter. When he said that Southwest "does not plan to order different aircraft models any time soon.," what do you suppose he meant?
 
bob75013
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:27 pm

SocalApproach wrote:
5 pages of a topic that isn't happening. :sarcastic:



THAT is the reason I suggested that the thread be locked.
 
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keesje
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:19 pm

keesje wrote:
"So, that's who we are, that's where we are. That doesn't mean that we'll be an all-737 carrier into perpetuity. But that's certainly where we are right now"
.

Kelly himself, the day before yesterday. Any one trying to translate that into "W'll only order Boeing" & ignore the recent A220 visit is free to do so.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:21 pm

bob75013 wrote:
SocalApproach wrote:
5 pages of a topic that isn't happening. :sarcastic:



THAT is the reason I suggested that the thread be locked.


And here you are, still on said thread that is not happening.

Believe it or not, airbus has been able to get THREE all-Boeing/MDC carriers to buy an airplane from them:

Spirit (all-DC9/MD8X), Frontier (all-737), and Allegiant (all-MD87/88). And, they’re all the most profitable carriers in the US, even when they operated the MDC/Boeing and Airbus planes simultaneously.

According to history, they’ll eventually buy a second plane type.
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:27 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Mods should lock the thread as the premise is wrong -- as WN IS NOT looking at the A220.

longhauler wrote:
You do know that locking the thread and jumping up an down claiming it isn't going to happen ... isn't going to stop it happening, don't you?

bob75013 wrote:
My opinion about the matter is meaningless.WN's CEO's opinion is a totally different matter. When he said that Southwest "does not plan to order different aircraft models any time soon.," what do you suppose he meant?

Well you got the first bit right, but when exactly when did GK say what you claim above? I assume the inverted commas are there for a reason.

I believe you are getting confused between what you have written upthread, and what GK actually said.

And now you are quoting yourself as if it is fact. :roll:

Or is this simply an attempt at a self-fulfilling prophecy?
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
bob75013
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:31 pm

Gulfstream500 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
SocalApproach wrote:
5 pages of a topic that isn't happening. :sarcastic:



THAT is the reason I suggested that the thread be locked.


And here you are, still on said thread that is not happening.

Believe it or not, airbus has been able to get THREE all-Boeing/MDC carriers to buy an airplane from them:

Spirit (all-DC9/MD8X), Frontier (all-737), and Allegiant (all-MD87/88). And, they’re all the most profitable carriers in the US, even when they operated the MDC/Boeing and Airbus planes simultaneously.

According to history, they’ll eventually buy a second plane type.


So, was Gary Kelly lying when he said that Southwest "does not plan to order different aircraft models any time soon?."

Because unless he was lying, this thread is meaningless.
 
bob75013
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:32 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Mods should lock the thread as the premise is wrong -- as WN IS NOT looking at the A220.

longhauler wrote:
You do know that locking the thread and jumping up an down claiming it isn't going to happen ... isn't going to stop it happening, don't you?

bob75013 wrote:
My opinion about the matter is meaningless.WN's CEO's opinion is a totally different matter. When he said that Southwest "does not plan to order different aircraft models any time soon.," what do you suppose he meant?

Well you got the first bit right, but when exactly when did GK say what you claim above? I assume the inverted commas are there for a reason.

I believe you are getting confused between what you have written upthread, and what GK actually said.

And now you are quoting yourself as if it is fact. :roll:

Or is this simply an attempt at a self-fulfilling prophecy?


Refer to post 121 for the link to what Kelly said.

and inverted commas are called quotation marks -- meaning they specify a quote of what someone said.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:47 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Mods should lock the thread as the premise is wrong -- as WN IS NOT looking at the A220.

bob75013 wrote:
WN's CEO's opinion is a totally different matter. When he said that Southwest "does not plan to order different aircraft models any time soon.," what do you suppose he meant?

When exactly when did GK say what you claim above? I assume the inverted commas are there for a reason.

I believe you are getting confused between what you have written upthread, and what GK actually said.

bob75013 wrote:
Refer to post 121 for the link to what Kelly said.

Nope, not good enough. :shakehead:
Revelation quoted what Gary Kelley actually said

What you have quoted in post 121 is yahoo's interpretation. Hence they did not use "quotation marks"

Do you understand the difference?

and inverted commas are called quotation marks -- meaning they specify a quote of what someone said.

Good. So does that mean you now actually realize the huge mistake you made..... :roll:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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william
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Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:05 pm

keesje wrote:
"So, that's who we are, that's where we are. That doesn't mean that we'll be an all-737 carrier into perpetuity. But that's certainly where we are right now"
.

Kelly, the day before yesterday. Any one trying to translate that into "W'll only order Boeing" & ignore the recent A220 visit is free to do so.

First the CSeries had no chance with SWA because Boeing would give hem an NSA deal they couldnt refuse. Then the 737-7 was the perfect match, then the 737-7 stretch was the perfect fit. When SWA postponed their -7s early 2018, the 737-8 was said to be all that is needed.

Now the MAX fleet is grounded and SWA's huge 737-700 fleet starts building up cycles. And Delta, Moxy and Jetblue will challenge them with A223 efficiency.

Oops, things changed. Now the more unconditional Boeing supporters fall back into "nothing to see here" "close the thread" when SWA is looking for operational feed back on the A220.

Telling IMO.


Wishful thinking IMO.
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1378
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:28 pm

william wrote:
keesje wrote:
"So, that's who we are, that's where we are. That doesn't mean that we'll be an all-737 carrier into perpetuity. But that's certainly where we are right now"
.

Kelly, the day before yesterday. Any one trying to translate that into "W'll only order Boeing" & ignore the recent A220 visit is free to do so.

First the CSeries had no chance with SWA because Boeing would give hem an NSA deal they couldnt refuse. Then the 737-7 was the perfect match, then the 737-7 stretch was the perfect fit. When SWA postponed their -7s early 2018, the 737-8 was said to be all that is needed.

Now the MAX fleet is grounded and SWA's huge 737-700 fleet starts building up cycles. And Delta, Moxy and Jetblue will challenge them with A223 efficiency.

Oops, things changed. Now the more unconditional Boeing supporters fall back into "nothing to see here" "close the thread" when SWA is looking for operational feed back on the A220.

Telling IMO.


Wishful thinking IMO.

Wait until U2 is "looking at" the E2. Shoe. Meet other foot. :duck:
 
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keesje
Posts: 13178
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:41 pm

Bricktop wrote:
william wrote:
keesje wrote:
.

Kelly, the day before yesterday. Any one trying to translate that into "W'll only order Boeing" & ignore the recent A220 visit is free to do so.

First the CSeries had no chance with SWA because Boeing would give hem an NSA deal they couldnt refuse. Then the 737-7 was the perfect match, then the 737-7 stretch was the perfect fit. When SWA postponed their -7s early 2018, the 737-8 was said to be all that is needed.

Now the MAX fleet is grounded and SWA's huge 737-700 fleet starts building up cycles. And Delta, Moxy and Jetblue will challenge them with A223 efficiency.

Oops, things changed. Now the more unconditional Boeing supporters fall back into "nothing to see here" "close the thread" when SWA is looking for operational feed back on the A220.

Telling IMO.


Wishful thinking IMO.

Wait until U2 is "looking at" the E2. Shoe. Meet other foot. :duck:


That's another topic. https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1410405

The E195-E2 despite being a significant stretch over the E195, it is still on the small site for a -700 replacement. A small stretch, similar to 737-7, might be possible. And also be a better idea than the 737-7.

We have to face even before the MAX crashes, SouthWest and Westjet delayed their (small) 737-7 orders, making it a defacto idle program last year.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2463
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:05 pm

rufusmi wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
rufusmi wrote:

A220-300 is 160 max


Are they currently looking at the A220 in general, or just one???

Personally, I would think that they would go for the 100, because it has much more of a size difference from the MAX7.


I think it’s much more likely that if they order the 220, it would be the 300, it’s pretty much a significantly more efficient 73G, and more efficient than the 37M.


This is a key point that is being overlooked. The 223 is more efficient than both WN current and future 150 seaters. Eventually, DL will be flying the plane out of LAX and ATL inevitably going head to head with WN's 73G on some routes. As well B6 out of MCO and FLL. The 7M7 is not the answer.

keesje wrote:
Southwest in my opinion will take all 737MAX orders as -8s from now.


That would leave WN with a hole below 175 seats. I don't believe Southwest's network cant operate with 175 seats being the smallest frame. ( I fully expect Southwest to convert some orders for either the MAX 9 or 10). I see WN accepting a few Max 7s for replacing the 73Gs that are exiting the fleet this year until they have a hold on what their game plan is fleet wise.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1477
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:47 pm

Yes, preferences for one type over another start to dissolve once costs cross the 5% difference point. It is brutal to be trying to make $ if your competitor has a significant cost advantage. Airline profits in good times get to 10%, back around 2004 only 2 airlines in the US were in the black consistently (WN and AS).

Any airline these days is looking out 5+ years at a minimum. Could the A223 or (A221) make sense working the smaller routes with the primary being the 738 Max. It is plausible and has to be reviewed. Personally, I hope WN stays with B, but AS did do quite well for over a decade with the Q400 at Horizon.
 
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NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1228
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:28 pm

Southwest may have looked at another European A220 aircraft to check the competition and tweak Boeing's nose. Boeing needs to get the 737 MAX problem fixed and do the job right the FIRST time.
The Boeing 737 Max is most likely going to be the LAST version of the 737 built as the 737 is MAXED out. If Boeing does not come out with a new build 737 replacement airlines are going to be forced to look elsewhere fore another aircraft. I have not been reading this thread but think Boeing has used the 737 airframe to the point it is stretched to a limit that has reached the END. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
Gulfstream500
Posts: 375
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:30 am

Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:46 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Southwest may have looked at another European A220 aircraft to check the competition and tweak Boeing's nose. Boeing needs to get the 737 MAX problem fixed and do the job right the FIRST time.
The Boeing 737 Max is most likely going to be the LAST version of the 737 built as the 737 is MAXED out. If Boeing does not come out with a new build 737 replacement airlines are going to be forced to look elsewhere fore another aircraft. I have not been reading this thread but think Boeing has used the 737 airframe to the point it is stretched to a limit that has reached the END. :old:


This does seem like a viable reason.

However, I’m not sure if Airbus a220s have an MCAS like system onboard.

I’ll have to look that one up.

As for the 737 program goes, this is surely the end. I think they should invest in making a shrink of the 787 for a Middle of the Market (MoM) airplane, and make the 797 a replacement for the 737.
Thinking of a good signature is hard...
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1226
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:53 pm

bob75013 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Mods should lock the thread as the premise is wrong -- as WN IS NOT looking at the A220.


You do know that locking the thread and jumping up an down claiming it isn't going to happen ... isn't going to stop it happening, don't you?

Southwest is under fiduciary responsibility to look at all options for increasing shareholder value. If the BOD has decided to ignore a yearly savings of over $1B, they better have a good reason why!

In my opinion, I am not saying Southwest will buy the A220, but ... I would certainly hope they gave it thought.


My opinion about the matter is meaningless.WN's CEO's opinion is a totally different matter. When he said that Southwest "does not plan to order different aircraft models any time soon.," what do you suppose he meant?

It means he is playing a poker game, has the cards in his hand and is not letting anyone sees them until he decides he's ready to.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:04 pm

Bricktop wrote:
There is no production line or supply chain capable of supplying WN with A22Xs. They are pretty much full with the orders they have and are aiming to go to a whopping 14 a month by the mid-2020s per Bloomberg. They have a >400 frame backlog to deliver, so when exactly and how many frames are WN going to take? But it sure is fun in fanboy fantasyland. Back on planet earth though, please no breath holding.

Volume is presently capped on A & B NB's due to structure and engine constraints, although for companies that contract engines direct with the OEM, makes swapping orders between air frames potentially more straight forward (for example consigning LEAPS from Boeing to Airbus, in turn allowing Airbus to free up GTF's for the A220) - just a different version and delivery address.

Interesting to see what Boeing do with their 737 replacement, and 797. Do they take fuselage and other structure back in house, facing new model volume hiatus, or maintain the status quo? If the latter, do they increase their financial interest in Spirit? Spirit is learning / benefiting from building structures at high rates, not Boeing. Boeing is learning / benefiting from assembling at high rates.

In contrast, Airbus seems to be moving closer to Spirit, consulting on supply management in the USA and Canada, and simplifying / reducing build times of major structures and assembling complete aircraft in France, Germany and the UK.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1226
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:53 pm

smartplane wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
There is no production line or supply chain capable of supplying WN with A22Xs. They are pretty much full with the orders they have and are aiming to go to a whopping 14 a month by the mid-2020s per Bloomberg. They have a >400 frame backlog to deliver, so when exactly and how many frames are WN going to take? But it sure is fun in fanboy fantasyland. Back on planet earth though, please no breath holding.

Volume is presently capped on A & B NB's due to structure and engine constraints, although for companies that contract engines direct with the OEM, makes swapping orders between air frames potentially more straight forward (for example consigning LEAPS from Boeing to Airbus, in turn allowing Airbus to free up GTF's for the A220) - just a different version and delivery address.

Interesting to see what Boeing do with their 737 replacement, and 797. Do they take fuselage and other structure back in house, facing new model volume hiatus, or maintain the status quo? If the latter, do they increase their financial interest in Spirit? Spirit is learning / benefiting from building structures at high rates, not Boeing. Boeing is learning / benefiting from assembling at high rates.

In contrast, Airbus seems to be moving closer to Spirit, consulting on supply management in the USA and Canada, and simplifying / reducing build times of major structures and assembling complete aircraft in France, Germany and the UK.

Not really, as SAFRAN assembles all the LEAP-1A (A320neo) and some of the LEAP-1B (737 MAX), while GE Aviation assembles only the LEAP-1B.
So, airframe production aside, it's not going to be straighforward for an airline to switch its order from the A320neo LEAP to the 737 MAX (or vice-versa) just because both use the CFM International LEAP engine.
 
atpcliff
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2001 6:24 am

Re: WN looking at A220

Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:16 pm

The A220-100/300/500, along with the A-321NEO is the perfect sized, modernized fleet for SWA.
TRY. It's all you have control over, and it's what God wants.

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