jpiddink
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Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:45 pm

From the credible Dutch broadcaster NOS:

Airline company Ryanair has to fire eight pilots and pay them millions of euros in damages. The court in East Brabant ruled that. The reimbursements range from 380,000 to 480,000 euros per pilot. Ryanair pilots were unexpectedly told last year that the airbase in Eindhoven was closing. According to the judge, the airline then acted "seriously culpable". An unworkable situation has arisen for the pilots and that is the fault of the airline. Pilots had to move to another foreign airport. Those who did not want that were fired, Ryanair said. They had to give up their preferences within three days.
[...]
The airline has always said that the base in Eindhoven had to be closed for economic reasons. But the court stated again that this interpretation was "implausible". The pilots have a different explanation: according to them, the airbase had to close because many Ryanair employees were on strike. The closure would be a punitive measure.

Original news article: https://nos.nl/artikel/2281696-ryanair- ... talen.html (Dutch only)
 
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enilria
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:58 pm

It's really a simple solution. Don't hire any Dutch pilots. Problem solved.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:01 pm

Ryanair should fire them then PAY them. Or? Just Pay them!!
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:28 pm

What is it with the Dutch and crazy airline rulings?
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:50 pm

I think that Ryanair deserved this one.
However, it's not an easy situation for the pilots either. They're going to get paid, are going to lose half of it in taxes, and then become unmarketable.
Of course, they can still decide to not enforce the ruling and decide on a settlement, othwrwise no airline in Europe would hire them after this, they would have to pack for Dubai.
 
marcogr12
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:04 pm

Why would they become unmarketable?How is it their fault?
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
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Tugger
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:10 pm

The news available online on this is poor to spotty at best. Can someone explain in lay terms what happened in this situation?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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SierraPacific
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:13 pm

I think Emirates or a Chinese airline just got 8 new pilots
 
LJ
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:21 pm

Tugger wrote:
The news available online on this is poor to spotty at best. Can someone explain in lay terms what happened in this situation?

Tugg


Ryanair had a base in The Netherlands. These pilots were employed in that base. The pilots went on strike for better conditions. Instead Ryanair closed the Eindhoven base and want to relocate the pilots. However, the pilots didn't agree and argued that Dutch labor laws were applicable. Moreover, the relocation of the EIN base was not based on economic performance, but only because the EIN staff went on strike. The Dutch courts agreed with the pilots and ordered Ryanair not to close the base, which it did anyway. Pilots had to relocate but didn't want that. Ryanair wanted to force them to relocate or get out of the company without the usual (under Dutch law) damages. However, they went to court which ordered Ryanair to give them a job which with similar schedules. Instead, Ryanair bullied the pilots by not giving them any work or at least not comparable to what they had, and thus the license of the pilots was in jeopardy. As the pilots didn't want to loose their license, they sued Ryanair to get fired (whch Ryanair didn't want as it didn't want to pay) and damages for lost income due to the fact they needed to start with lower seniority. That's it in a nutshell.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:28 pm

SierraPacific wrote:
I think Emirates or a Chinese airline just got 8 new pilots

How do EK and FR pay compare?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:28 pm

enilria wrote:
It's really a simple solution. Don't hire any Dutch pilots. Problem solved.

How do you know? Do you think other nationalities don't go on strike? Ryanair pilots from Belgium, Germany, Ireland and Sweden have also refused to work. And so did Ryanair staff in Italy, Portugal and Spain. Don't hire anyone from all those countries. Problem solved. Sure.
 
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enilria
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:45 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
enilria wrote:
It's really a simple solution. Don't hire any Dutch pilots. Problem solved.

How do you know? Do you think other nationalities don't go on strike? Ryanair pilots from Belgium, Germany, Ireland and Sweden have also refused to work. And so did Ryanair staff in Italy, Portugal and Spain. Don't hire anyone from all those countries. Problem solved. Sure.

It was a Dutch court. I think airlines need to be able to move crews around. That's standard for airlines with multiple hubs. To quote Don Quixote: Whether the pitcher hits the stone or the stone hits the pitcher, it's going to be bad for the pitcher. Meaning: One way or the other the airline has to have that sort of flexibility and they will get it one way or the other.
 
axiom
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:52 pm

enilria wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
enilria wrote:
It's really a simple solution. Don't hire any Dutch pilots. Problem solved.

How do you know? Do you think other nationalities don't go on strike? Ryanair pilots from Belgium, Germany, Ireland and Sweden have also refused to work. And so did Ryanair staff in Italy, Portugal and Spain. Don't hire anyone from all those countries. Problem solved. Sure.

It was a Dutch court. I think airlines need to be able to move crews around. That's standard for airlines with multiple hubs. To quote Don Quixote: Whether the pitcher hits the stone or the stone hits the pitcher, it's going to be bad for the pitcher. Meaning: One way or the other the airline has to have that sort of flexibility and they will get it one way or the other.


If the airline wants to have bases in multiple countries, it plays by the labor laws in those places. Follow the law, or don’t have a base. Seems pretty simple to me.
 
vahancrazy
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:52 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
How do you know? Do you think other nationalities don't go on strike? Ryanair pilots from Belgium, Germany, Ireland and Sweden have also refused to work. And so did Ryanair staff in Italy, Portugal and Spain. Don't hire anyone from all those countries. Problem solved. Sure.


Beaware, labour law in Italy is pretty poor, more comparable to third world than the developed countries.
For privately owned companies, Italy has one of the highest average working hours per week despite extra hours are not properly accounted.
If Ryanair could hire Italians staff only, they would be better off.
Sad reality from a countries that was great in the faraway past but became a joke!
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:52 pm

enilria wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
enilria wrote:
It's really a simple solution. Don't hire any Dutch pilots. Problem solved.

How do you know? Do you think other nationalities don't go on strike? Ryanair pilots from Belgium, Germany, Ireland and Sweden have also refused to work. And so did Ryanair staff in Italy, Portugal and Spain. Don't hire anyone from all those countries. Problem solved. Sure.

It was a Dutch court. I think airlines need to be able to move crews around. That's standard for airlines with multiple hubs. To quote Don Quixote: Whether the pitcher hits the stone or the stone hits the pitcher, it's going to be bad for the pitcher. Meaning: One way or the other the airline has to have that sort of flexibility and they will get it one way or the other.

But this cannot easily be achieved if it means the crew has to move and follow the airline (and by move, I mean house, spouse, kids, etc). Even more so when working for FR and the like who will chase the higher tax break and exit markets quicker than one can feel finally at home after a move.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:59 pm

enilria wrote:
I think airlines need to be able to move crews around.

But to do it for retaliatory reasons OK? I think that was the question at the core here.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
OSL777FLYER
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:45 pm

This is the Ryanair way of doing things. This is not typical for the Dutch. Ryanair want to "own" their crew, but when something goes wrong, they claim that "pilots do not work for us, they work for an employment agency".

When Ryanair closed the base at Oslo/Rygge airport, they first claimed it was due to the Norwegian government imposing an €8 tax on flights. The fact was that Ryanair lost in court because they fired two flight attendants unlawfully.

While they were based at Rygge, Ryanair demanded to monitor the staff break room by video to see how staff were behaving. This is not allowed according to Norwegian laws unless an employer has a suspicion that something unlawful e.g. stealing is taking place. Ryanair challenged and said because they had the breakroom, it was Irish property and Irish laws applied.

Always bending the rules.

Hope Ryanair gets slammed with this one, but as already mentioned by some others, the pilots need to make sure that they are "hire-able" Not really good in your next job interview when asked "Reason for leaving your last job?" and the answer would be "I sued my last employer".
 
leghorn
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:03 pm

The ruling will be appealed to a higher court. This judge just got the case off his desk.
 
marcogr12
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:09 pm

Well yes but on the other hand Ryanair s (unl-)awful practices are well known around the world so who could really blame them? There are dozens of pilots who left FR and found a better fortune with other airlines
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
VSMUT
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:25 pm

OSL777FLYER wrote:
Hope Ryanair gets slammed with this one, but as already mentioned by some others, the pilots need to make sure that they are "hire-able" Not really good in your next job interview when asked "Reason for leaving your last job?" and the answer would be "I sued my last employer".


It's Ryanair. No sane employer would turn down a pilot because he had issues with that company in particular.
I had a major spat with a former employer too, another major Irish airline, that resulted in a resignation and termination. Nobody ever received me negatively for that. The Irish have a really negative reputation for screwing over employees, and that is a sentiment I've seen with all airlines I've worked or interviewed with. If anything, there has been more compassion for having been through it.
 
ScottishDavie
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:48 pm

leghorn wrote:
The ruling will be appealed to a higher court. This judge just got the case off his desk.


Please explain that bizarre statement.
 
DDR
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:59 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
enilria wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
How do you know? Do you think other nationalities don't go on strike? Ryanair pilots from Belgium, Germany, Ireland and Sweden have also refused to work. And so did Ryanair staff in Italy, Portugal and Spain. Don't hire anyone from all those countries. Problem solved. Sure.

It was a Dutch court. I think airlines need to be able to move crews around. That's standard for airlines with multiple hubs. To quote Don Quixote: Whether the pitcher hits the stone or the stone hits the pitcher, it's going to be bad for the pitcher. Meaning: One way or the other the airline has to have that sort of flexibility and they will get it one way or the other.

But this cannot easily be achieved if it means the crew has to move and follow the airline (and by move, I mean house, spouse, kids, etc). Even more so when working for FR and the like who will chase the higher tax break and exit markets quicker than one can feel finally at home after a move.


I am no fan of Ryanair and I'm not siding with them on this. However, airline crews have frequently had to "chase bases." A crew base is never a guaranteed thing. They come and they go. Crews can elect to commute or they can move. I've had to change bases before. It sucks, but it's part of the business. Just ask the 700 AA flight attendants who just got the boot from PHX.
 
leghorn
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:59 pm

I'll infer based on your username that you are not.
Nothing bizzare about the statement. He has left the pilots at no financial loss in the interim while the issue trundles its way upwards.
Their own Counsel won't be telling them to spend the money like it is their own until the matter is finally decided.
I've been watching the series of court judgements regarding this case for a while. Previously, the Pilots were kept employed and Ryanair weren't allowed fired them to keep the ball in play and now it has become obvious that they'll never be able to work for Ryanair so they are being dismissed but the ball is kept in play for another higher court to get in to the nitty-gritty of balancing labour law against the rights of a Commercial Enterprise to decide where and how it plies its trade. That was never a topic for this lower court to tease out.
 
rlwynn
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:16 pm

DDR wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
enilria wrote:
It was a Dutch court. I think airlines need to be able to move crews around. That's standard for airlines with multiple hubs. To quote Don Quixote: Whether the pitcher hits the stone or the stone hits the pitcher, it's going to be bad for the pitcher. Meaning: One way or the other the airline has to have that sort of flexibility and they will get it one way or the other.

But this cannot easily be achieved if it means the crew has to move and follow the airline (and by move, I mean house, spouse, kids, etc). Even more so when working for FR and the like who will chase the higher tax break and exit markets quicker than one can feel finally at home after a move.


I am no fan of Ryanair and I'm not siding with them on this. However, airline crews have frequently had to "chase bases." A crew base is never a guaranteed thing. They come and they go. Crews can elect to commute or they can move. I've had to change bases before. It sucks, but it's part of the business. Just ask the 700 AA flight attendants who just got the boot from PHX.



But they did not get booted to another country.
I can drive faster than you
 
N353SK
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:19 pm

DDR wrote:
However, airline crews have frequently had to "chase bases." A crew base is never a guaranteed thing. They come and they go. Crews can elect to commute or they can move. I've had to change bases before. It sucks, but it's part of the business. Just ask the 700 AA flight attendants who just got the boot from PHX.


I don't think anybody is saying that an airline shouldn't be allowed to open and close crew bases. The issue is that if an airline is closing a crew base they need to do it in accordance with local law and certainly not as perceived retaliation for a labor strike.
 
Galwayman
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:23 pm

SierraPacific wrote:
I think Emirates or a Chinese airline just got 8 new pilots



I doubt very much if emirates or many other airlines would touch these pilots with a barge pole
 
DDR
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:28 pm

N353SK wrote:
DDR wrote:
However, airline crews have frequently had to "chase bases." A crew base is never a guaranteed thing. They come and they go. Crews can elect to commute or they can move. I've had to change bases before. It sucks, but it's part of the business. Just ask the 700 AA flight attendants who just got the boot from PHX.


I don't think anybody is saying that an airline shouldn't be allowed to open and close crew bases. The issue is that if an airline is closing a crew base they need to do it in accordance with local law and certainly not as perceived retaliation for a labor strike.


Yes and that is clearly why I said I do not support Ryainair.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:49 pm

This is just according to Dutch labor laws. Your employer wants to fire a group, it asked permission to do so, the agency checks if the reasons given are according to the law, in this case it wasn't, so Ryanair couldn't fire them. The pilots wanted to get back to work, Ryanair didn't deliver, thus they went to court to get their contracts terminated with a settlement for damages. The court agreed that it was the wrongdoing of Ryanair, so they need to pay.

Ryanair wants to play around with staff and wants to employ them according to the lowest EU standards. In general it is good these kind of rulings. This is an EU thing. If you want to do business within a country (crew base) you need to follow the rules of the country, simple as that.
Ryanair didn't want to do this and now is paying the price.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Etheereal
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:52 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
Why would they become unmarketable?How is it their fault?


Read the first 3 responses to this thread. There's the answer.

OSL777FLYER wrote:
This is the Ryanair way of doing things. This is not typical for the Dutch. Ryanair want to "own" their crew, but when something goes wrong, they claim that "pilots do not work for us, they work for an employment agency".

FR is not the only one that does this. AA does it as well, specially in South America, where they use other companies (forgot whats the name of that method) like Longport Security just to avoid Union Labors and such. I am an ex "AA" employee btw.
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
Dreamflight767
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:57 pm

SierraPacific wrote:
I think Emirates or a Chinese airline just got 8 new pilots


I thought pilots from EK and Chinese carriers were leaving to go to FR.
 
hz747300
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:48 am

Galwayman wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
I think Emirates or a Chinese airline just got 8 new pilots



I doubt very much if emirates or many other airlines would touch these pilots with a barge pole


Agreed, but probably for different reasons. If they won't leave their homeland for a new base, say, in Germany. Why would they go to EK (Dubai, UAE) or the PRC and base there? I haven't heard of PRC carriers offering Dutch bases, and EK is not offering any bases, though rumors on the freighter crew getting bases soon.
Keep on truckin'...
 
santi319
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:46 am

Good, hope this keeps happening. The standards for crew in the EU are WAY lower than those in the US and Canada and this needs to change.

Your crew after all is the one that gets you there safe and it is the face of the airline. Im sure Corporate can tighten their belts a little and share the profits by giving them the standard.....
 
Jetty
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:39 am

N353SK wrote:
The issue is that if an airline is closing a crew base they need to do it in accordance with local law and certainly not as perceived retaliation for a labor strike.

Not even perceived retaliation. Ryanair was stupid enough to outright state that if the pilots would go on strike they would close the base in response. This is exactly why this ruling could happen. With Dutch Labour law you are allowed to move pilots, but it has to be on reasonable grounds and with reasonable conditions.

The pilot union involved is the same as the one of KL: the large European legacy carrier known to have least amount of strikes, that should tell something.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:13 am

I didn't think pilots were guaranteed any certain base.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:40 am

Jetty wrote:
N353SK wrote:
The issue is that if an airline is closing a crew base they need to do it in accordance with local law and certainly not as perceived retaliation for a labor strike.

Not even perceived retaliation. Ryanair was stupid enough to outright state that if the pilots would go on strike they would close the base in response. This is exactly why this ruling could happen. With Dutch Labour law you are allowed to move pilots, but it has to be on reasonable grounds and with reasonable conditions.

The pilot union involved is the same as the one of KL: the large European legacy carrier known to have least amount of strikes, that should tell something.


Exactly what you all have said, it is incumbent on FR to follow local laws, in this case Dutch laws, there is someone at FR with their head in the guillotine for making a public statement like that, accepting culpibility for the action by admitting guilt to breaking the laws. I believe FR brought this upon themselves & deserve the ruling, especially considering what they do get away with routinely in other cases.

It is also considered a "cost of doing business" to break laws & just pay the fines for infractions, when it costs less than doing the proper thing, considering the chance of being caught & settling out of court. I believe most major companies employ people, who routinely monitor company actions & actually have formulas, using the cost of being Joe legal vs the cost advantages vs the risk on breaking rules or laws.
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anrec80
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:53 am

marcogr12 wrote:
Why would they become unmarketable?How is it their fault?


Not many employers are happy to take on employees who had clashes with their previous employer. The solution for these people - somehow maintain their logbook, and after a while they will be able to get back into a passenger jet cockpit. Employers tend to not care about issues in distant past.
 
marcogr12
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:03 am

anrec80 wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
Why would they become unmarketable?How is it their fault?


Not many employers are happy to take on employees who had clashes with their previous employer. The solution for these people - somehow maintain their logbook, and after a while they will be able to get back into a passenger jet cockpit. Employers tend to not care about issues in distant past.


Yes, i understand that, but FR is known to be an awful employer and in this particular case the Court is on the pilots' side..Besides, i don't think these would be the only pilots leaving/getting fired from FR to find a job in another airline with better practices..
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
anrec80
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:07 am

marcogr12 wrote:
Yes, i understand that, but FR is known to be an awful employer and in this particular case the Court is on the pilots' side..Besides, i don't think these would be the only pilots leaving/getting fired from FR to find a job in another airline with better practices..


Well - when a potential employer's HR department gets candidate's background check results (which include public/court records) - they just see the fact of litigation with their previous employer. The candidates, obviously, are not asked any questions or given any chance to explain anything. When a person leaves on their own (or HR dept can't establish otherwise) - it's a normal situation, the person was there and left on their own.
 
airbuster
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:20 am

For all the posters maintaining the belief that said pilots are unmarketable. Thanks to Dutch ALPA VNV together with KLM some (possessing the correct requirements to apply to KLM) were given priority to go through the selection process at KLM.
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
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Aisak
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:14 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I didn't think pilots were guaranteed any certain base.


No employee is guaranteed any certain job either. This is not about that. LJ above explains it quite well.
But there are laws, rules and procedures to do things. And Ryanair is well known for not following rules that they don't like.
 
leghorn
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:14 am

airbuster wrote:
For all the posters maintaining the belief that said pilots are unmarketable. Thanks to Dutch ALPA VNV together with KLM some (possessing the correct requirements to apply to KLM) were given priority to go through the selection process at KLM.

"some"? A donkey with bad breath who can fly a 737-800 shouldn't be struggling to find a position unless they litigate against their employer.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:54 am

Aisak wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I didn't think pilots were guaranteed any certain base.


No employee is guaranteed any certain job either. This is not about that. LJ above explains it quite well.
But there are laws, rules and procedures to do things. And Ryanair is well known for not following rules that they don't like.


Much different than the US. Bases come and go all the time here. AA closed the STL pilot base. Delta closed MD-88/90 bases at DTW, MSP, and NYC recently. It's a fools errand to assume you can forever live in your base city with no disruption. Best case scenario is you move to another equipment type if available. But you may not have the seniority for that. So then you can either quit or commute.
 
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Aisak
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:03 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Aisak wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I didn't think pilots were guaranteed any certain base.


No employee is guaranteed any certain job either. This is not about that. LJ above explains it quite well.
But there are laws, rules and procedures to do things. And Ryanair is well known for not following rules that they don't like.


Much different than the US. Bases come and go all the time here. AA closed the STL pilot base. Delta closed MD-88/90 bases at DTW, MSP, and NYC recently. It's a fools errand to assume you can forever live in your base city with no disruption. Best case scenario is you move to another equipment type if available. But you may not have the seniority for that. So then you can either quit or commute.


Again, this is not about that. None of the 8 pilot demanded to be chained to the EIN base or even to be guaranteed to be employed by Ryanair forever. You should read the previous posts.
They even had to go to court to have their contract terminated.

Again... there are laws that have to be followed.

I can imagine the proceeding at the court:
Exhibit A: Ryanair publicy stating that they will close EIN base if pilots were to strike
Exhibit B: Ryanair closing the EIN base shortly after the strike (and saying it was for a whole different set of reasons - the ones allowed by law)

Case closed
Last edited by Aisak on Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
leghorn
Posts: 828
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:07 am

You make it sound so reasonable. They'll supposedly move but somewhere else subject to the laws of the Netherlands. How many airports in the highly populated Netherlands isn't yet serviced and which of those are favourable to a low cost carrier who wishes to remain a low cost carrier.
 
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enilria
Posts: 9295
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:17 pm

Tugger wrote:
enilria wrote:
I think airlines need to be able to move crews around.

But to do it for retaliatory reasons OK? I think that was the question at the core here.

Tugg

What I read said that the pilots claimed that. I wasn't clear if that was the reason they won. They might have won on the broader point that airlines can't force you to relocate across country borders which made sense until the EU came along. How would they prove it was retaliation? I did not see where it said they proved that was the case, only that they claimed it.
 
Jetty
Posts: 833
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:25 pm

enilria wrote:
Tugger wrote:
enilria wrote:
I think airlines need to be able to move crews around.

But to do it for retaliatory reasons OK? I think that was the question at the core here.

Tugg

What I read said that the pilots claimed that. I wasn't clear if that was the reason they won.

The judge didn’t list a single reason they won, but rather a number of considerations of which it was one.

They might have won on the broader point that airlines can't force you to relocate across country borders which made sense until the EU came along.

They didn’t. It’s accepted that can happen under certain circumstances.

How would they prove it was retaliation? I did not see where it said they proved that was the case, only that they claimed it.

How about taking Ryanair’s own warning at face value? :lol: It’s not a criminal case where you have to prove beyond doubt.
 
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enilria
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:32 pm

Jetty wrote:
enilria wrote:
Tugger wrote:
But to do it for retaliatory reasons OK? I think that was the question at the core here.

Tugg

What I read said that the pilots claimed that. I wasn't clear if that was the reason they won.

The judge didn’t list a single reason they won, but rather a number of considerations of which it was one.

They might have won on the broader point that airlines can't force you to relocate across country borders which made sense until the EU came along.

They didn’t. It’s accepted that can happen under certain circumstances.

How would they prove it was retaliation? I did not see where it said they proved that was the case, only that they claimed it.

How about taking Ryanair’s own warning at face value? :lol: It’s not a criminal case where you have to prove beyond doubt.

Closing a crew base that has operational problems or that is higher cost than another isn't retaliation, it's just business. I don't know EU law, but in many places if people strike you are free to fire them. I would think they would need to prove it was done with malice if this case hung on the retaliation angle, although it appears there is no proof that the case did.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 878
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:52 pm

enilria wrote:
Jetty wrote:
enilria wrote:
What I read said that the pilots claimed that. I wasn't clear if that was the reason they won.

The judge didn’t list a single reason they won, but rather a number of considerations of which it was one.

They might have won on the broader point that airlines can't force you to relocate across country borders which made sense until the EU came along.

They didn’t. It’s accepted that can happen under certain circumstances.

How would they prove it was retaliation? I did not see where it said they proved that was the case, only that they claimed it.

How about taking Ryanair’s own warning at face value? :lol: It’s not a criminal case where you have to prove beyond doubt.

Closing a crew base that has operational problems or that is higher cost than another isn't retaliation, it's just business. I don't know EU law, but in many places if people strike you are free to fire them. I would think they would need to prove it was done with malice if this case hung on the retaliation angle, although it appears there is no proof that the case did.

FR actions spoke for themselves. As mentioned above:
Exhibit A: Ryanair publicy stating that they will close EIN base if pilots were to strike
Exhibit B: Ryanair closing the EIN base shortly after the strike (and saying it was for a whole different set of reasons - the ones allowed by law)
FR was obviously unable to prove they closed the base on business/financial grounds; so, the judge defaulted to retaliation.
 
Jetty
Posts: 833
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:00 pm

enilria wrote:
Jetty wrote:
enilria wrote:
What I read said that the pilots claimed that. I wasn't clear if that was the reason they won.

The judge didn’t list a single reason they won, but rather a number of considerations of which it was one.

They might have won on the broader point that airlines can't force you to relocate across country borders which made sense until the EU came along.

They didn’t. It’s accepted that can happen under certain circumstances.

How would they prove it was retaliation? I did not see where it said they proved that was the case, only that they claimed it.

How about taking Ryanair’s own warning at face value? :lol: It’s not a criminal case where you have to prove beyond doubt.

Closing a crew base that has operational problems or that is higher cost than another isn't retaliation, it's just business. I don't know EU law, but in many places if people strike you are free to fire them.

In Dutch law you aren’t free to fire staff that strike. If you think the strike isn’t legitimate you are free to go to court to ask that the strike is forbidden, which happens frequently and not seldom such a request is granted. If an employee continues to strike after that then you have a good enough reason to fire them.

I would think they would need to prove it was done with malice if this case hung on the retaliation angle.

What more proof do you expect beyond Ryanair’s own announcement of this retaliation measure? There were even only a few days in between the strike and the announcement of the base closure :?

I have to give you Ryanair said it wasn’t a threat :mrgreen:

“We are not willing to accept any more unnecessary disruptions to our business and our customers in Eindhoven, and as we explained at our recent meeting, if they continue then we will reorganise the Eindhoven base to serve our Dutch customers on aircraft bases overseas, leading to cuts in the number of bases aircraft and jobs in Eindhoven. We hope you will work with us now to avoid any such outcome. This is not a threat, but will be the inevitable consequence of any further misguided and unnecessary strike actions by our Eindhoven pilots or cabin crew.”

although it appears there is no proof that the case did.

You want proof of a verdict? Just read it! If you don’t you also can believe what people that did say about it ;)

https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inzie ... :2019:2311

Google translate of the important part:

Ryanair argues that the operational transformation of Eindhoven from base to destination is based on business economic reasons, but Ryanair's statement is unbelievable and therefore not convincing. Ryanair wants to make it appear as if it had already taken the decision to close the base in Eindhoven on 3 September 2018, during the meeting of the commercial team, but he never communicated that intention, other than in relation to the strikes. According to Ryanair, the AU and the possible tightening of the curfew were important reasons for closing the base in Eindhoven, but those reasons are not mentioned in the letters of 14 and 25 September 2018. The AU was also not mentioned in the presentation to the pilots on 6 September 2018. The pilots have argued, without being contradicted, that they did not become aware of the - according to Ryanair - inadequate efficiency of - according to Ryanair - the efficiency of the interim proceedings on 18 October 2018; the base in Eindhoven. The curfew was discussed in the presentation of 6 September 2018, but unlike Ryanair, the subdistrict court judge in the letter of 20 August 2018 from Eindhoven Airport reads no concrete threat of a further tightening of the curfew, but an alert to possible consequences. in the event of continuous exceeding of the final landing time. Also the reports that the pilots received from Ryanair to explain the decision to close the base in Eindhoven (production 15 with petition) do not mention the AU and curfew.
The documents submitted also do not show that there were other reasons for closing the base - apart from the strikes - now that both the memo from Mrs. [name of Ryanair's employee] (production 10 in defense), the minutes of the meeting of 3 September 2018 ( production 12 in defense) and the progress report of 7 September 2018 (production 13 in defense) have been largely blackened.
The conduct of Ryanair is also incompatible with its claim that the decision to close the base had already been taken on 3 September 2018. If that had already been decided on 3 September 2018, why would Ryanair still negotiate a collective agreement at the end of September? Both from the letter from Mr. [name of Director of HR Strategy and Operations Ryanair] (Director of HR Strategy and Operations) of 25 September 2018 (production 9 with petition) and from the email from Mr. [name of Chief Officer Operations Ryanair ] (Chief Operations Officer) of 26 September 2018 (production 10 by petition) shows that Ryanair was still continuing the CLA negotiations at that time. [name of Director of HR Strategy and Operations Ryanair] explicitly states that Ryanair will be available on 2 and 3 October 2018 for further consultations to reach agreements and also [name of Chief Officer Operations Ryanair] makes an offer with a view to the future.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:21 pm

enilria wrote:
It's really a simple solution. Don't hire any Dutch pilots. Problem solved.


There's an even easier solution: Abide by the rules in the countries where you set up shop, instead of pretending Irish labour law applies across all of the EU. It doesn't, it's been to court in numerous EU nations and FR have lost each and every time.

jetblueguy22 wrote:
What is it with the Dutch and crazy airline rulings?


There's nothing crazy about Dutch labour law, unless you happen to be the equivalent of a corporate pirate who thinks the law doesn't apply to them. When in Rome, you know.

marcogr12 wrote:
Why would they become unmarketable?How is it their fault?


The would not become unmarketable by a long shot, it's a pipe dream concocted by a pilot hater.

leghorn wrote:
The ruling will be appealed to a higher court. This judge just got the case off his desk.


The ruling might be appealed, provided Ryanair are stupid enough to try it. The case is extremely cut and dry: Ryanair threatened by letter to close the base if the strikes continued. The strikes continued, the base closed and then Ryanair tried to argue it was closed for economical reasons, whilst maintaining every single one of the services. One has to be extremely stupid to fall for that, and the Dutch labour courts are no fools.

TTailedTiger wrote:
I didn't think pilots were guaranteed any certain base.


According to the contract given to them by FR, they are either given a base or a 'flexible base' contract, with the provision the company can move them around as and when they see fit, at the expense of the employee. The thing is, however, that contract uses Irish law as the foundation, which effectively makes it an unenforceable contract everywhere in the EU except Ireland.
Signature. You just read one.

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