Camel22
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:32 pm

"For all the posters maintaining the belief that said pilots are unmarketable. Thanks to Dutch ALPA VNV together with KLM some (possessing the correct requirements to apply to KLM) were given priority to go through the selection process at KLM."

Duh.
If you read through the court papers, the MAJORITY said they did not have the "required" klm flight-school-education....
Thats a typical dutch way of reducing time spend on new hires i.s.o. in this case looking for experience.

btw, cargo flying is better and easier......
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:39 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
What is it with the Dutch and crazy airline rulings?


How is this a crazy airline ruling? They closed a base because staff was striking LOL
 
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Aesma
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:50 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
What is it with the Dutch and crazy airline rulings?


Ryanair is a frequent flier at many EU countries' courts, usually to get beat down by the law they blatantly broke.

Either they figured it was making them more money to proceed like this, or they count it as publicity (there is no such thing as bad publicity).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
PaxPicti
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:25 pm

Aesma wrote:
Either they figured it was making them more money to proceed like this, or they count it as publicity (there is no such thing as bad publicity).

Yes there is.

I've never flown Ryanair and I never will, because of stories like this. For one thing, because I'd prefer my flight not to be cancelled at short/no notice due to them having forced one or other sections of their workforce into strike action, and for another because I won't give my money to this sort of dishonest company.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:20 pm

enilria wrote:
It's really a simple solution. Don't hire any Dutch pilots. Problem solved.


That's the attitude that leads to lowest-common-denominator labor standards, which will be no standards at all.
 
leghorn
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:11 pm

B777LRF wrote:
leghorn wrote:
The ruling will be appealed to a higher court. This judge just got the case off his desk.


The ruling might be appealed, provided Ryanair are stupid enough to try it. The case is extremely cut and dry: Ryanair threatened by letter to close the base if the strikes continued. The strikes continued, the base closed and then Ryanair tried to argue it was closed for economical reasons, whilst maintaining every single one of the services. One has to be extremely stupid to fall for that, and the Dutch labour courts are no fools.

A Court in the Netherlands doesn't have to be the final Court to pass judgement on this. All Ryanair have to do is raise a question related to E.U. law and in this particular case it would be to do with a Company's right to trade throughout Europe without barrier. If they raise a question related to application of E.U. law then the court in the Netherlands will have to refer it to the ECJ.
 
Jetty
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:15 pm

leghorn wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
leghorn wrote:
The ruling will be appealed to a higher court. This judge just got the case off his desk.


The ruling might be appealed, provided Ryanair are stupid enough to try it. The case is extremely cut and dry: Ryanair threatened by letter to close the base if the strikes continued. The strikes continued, the base closed and then Ryanair tried to argue it was closed for economical reasons, whilst maintaining every single one of the services. One has to be extremely stupid to fall for that, and the Dutch labour courts are no fools.

A Court in the Netherlands doesn't have to be the final Court to pass judgement on this. All Ryanair have to do is raise a question related to E.U. law and in this particular case it would be to do with a Company's right to trade throughout Europe without barrier. If they raise a question related to application of E.U. law then the court in the Netherlands will have to refer it to the ECJ.

Plain wrong. If the Dutch court determines the question Ryanair tries to bring up is already answered by established EU law (which it is) they don’t have to refer anything.
 
leghorn
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:21 pm

If it is in contravention of E.U. law and it patently is they will get to the ECJ and they will have a finding in their favour.
The finding from the Court in the Netherlands guarantees employees can't be let go by a company because the Union will always create a dispute be it over remuneration or terms and conditions or even terms of redundancy.
You won't be the one ruling on this case according to your perception of reality.
 
leghorn
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:48 pm

https://ukaviation.news/ryanair-ordered ... utch-base/

Jetty, Ryanair are obviously not taking legal advice from you. Quote from article above: "It is understood that Ryanair intends to appeal the decision."
 
leghorn
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:56 pm

https://nltimes.nl/2017/07/06/ryanair-s ... etherlands

Ryanair were having problems enough in Eindhoven before the militant Unions started acting up. The base was on a knife-edge before the Unions thought that they Ryanair over a barrel.
 
Jetty
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:02 pm

leghorn wrote:
If it is in contravention of E.U. law and it patently is they will get to the ECJ and they will have a finding in their favour.
The finding from the Court in the Netherlands guarantees employees can't be let go by a company because the Union will always create a dispute be it over remuneration or terms and conditions or even terms of redundancy.
You won't be the one ruling on this case according to your perception of reality.

No it is not. EU law about referring cases to the ECJ:

This procedure is considered useful when, in a case before a national court, a question of interpretation which is new and of general interest for the uniform application of EU law is raised, or where the existing case-law does not appear to give the necessary guidance to deal with a new legal situation.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... M%3Al14552

There is no question about interpretation or of general interest. To the contrary: it has long been established that if you operate from an EU country and choose to hire staff locally the local labor law applies. The necessary guidance is available: Ryanair has lost their court cases because of this over and over again.

leghorn wrote:
https://ukaviation.news/ryanair-ordered-to-compensate-pilots-at-closed-dutch-base/

Jetty, Ryanair are obviously not taking legal advice from you. Quote from article above: "It is understood that Ryanair intends to appeal the decision."

It is very obvious they don’t take legal advice from me, because if they did I would have made it VERY clear to NEVER put the threat that striking will lead to closure of the base in writing. :lol:

Of course they can appeal to a higher Dutch court, anyone can no matter how pointless. That doesn’t say anything about involvement of the ECJ as you imply however.
 
leghorn
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:23 pm

If they are put at a competitive disadvantage because they are prevented from trading in to a country by having to pay punitive fines to release their former employees in Holland then they'll have their access to ECJ.
A local labour law which effectively forces an employer to employ employees in perpetuity is a barrier to free trade in the E.U.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:42 pm

leghorn wrote:
If they are put at a competitive disadvantage because they are prevented from trading in to a country by having to pay punitive fines to release their former employees in Holland then they'll have their access to ECJ.
A local labour law which effectively forces an employer to employ employees in perpetuity is a barrier to free trade in the E.U.

No one said FR had to employ these pilots in perpetuity. If they want to part way with them, they have to do it in accordance with Dutch laws; which they didn't do and got fine for it.
 
LJ
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:15 pm

leghorn wrote:
If they are put at a competitive disadvantage because they are prevented from trading in to a country by having to pay punitive fines to release their former employees in Holland then they'll have their access to ECJ. A local labour law which effectively forces an employer to employ employees in perpetuity is a barrier to free trade in the E.U.


The reason the Court came to this decision was because Ryanair didn't comply with a previous court ruling (not closing the EIN base and forcing employees to relocate). This is more about complying to the previous court ruling than a labor law forcing an employer to employ employees in perpetuity.

Finally, Dutch labor laws are applicable to any company doing business in The Netherlands. As such Ryanair isn't disadvantaged in any way.
 
leghorn
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:07 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
leghorn wrote:
If they are put at a competitive disadvantage because they are prevented from trading in to a country by having to pay punitive fines to release their former employees in Holland then they'll have their access to ECJ.
A local labour law which effectively forces an employer to employ employees in perpetuity is a barrier to free trade in the E.U.

No one said FR had to employ these pilots in perpetuity. If they want to part way with them, they have to do it in accordance with Dutch laws; which they didn't do and got fine for it.

Ryanair decided to retrench because the demands related to terms and conditions from the employees made the base(which was already struggling for survival as I referred to earlier) unsustainable and the employees were striking to impose these new terms on their employer. The only way Ryanair would have placated these employees would have been to acquiesce to their demands and destroy their business model in the process. It is as simple as that.
Ryanair abided by the previous court judgement and kept the employees on payroll adhering to their side of the existing contract but the existing contract didn't guarantee the pilots regular flying time and pay associated with flying hours. The employees brought this back to court because the previous judgement didn't suit them.

There is a hell of a lot of revisionism of what happened here by a lot of you and no consideration is being paid to the jobs that the Union lost not only for these 8 pilots but dozens of other pilots, crew and ground staff. Still..any excuse will do to give Ryanair a kicking.
 
leghorn
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:09 pm

LJ wrote:
because Ryanair didn't comply with a previous court ruling (not closing the EIN base and forcing employees to relocate).

That is not correct. According to the earlier judgement they had to keep the pilots on the payroll and that they did.
 
leghorn
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:13 pm

LJ wrote:
Dutch labor laws are applicable to any company doing business in The Netherlands. As such Ryanair isn't disadvantaged in any way.

Labour law only applies to employees employed in the Netherlands. Ryanair decided they didn't want to employ staff in Netherlands are entitled to retrench. Labour Law and Business conducted in the Netherlands can't be conflated in to one topic. The ability to offer services by an individual or company based in one E.U. country to a Customer in another E.U> country is a cornerstone of the European Community/Union
 
leghorn
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:20 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
No one said FR had to employ these pilots in perpetuity. If they want to part way with them, they have to do it in accordance with Dutch laws; which they didn't do and got fine for it.

It appears that once the employee has created an industrial dispute with their employer they can't be made redundant. Any action made by the employer to legitimately make their position redundant will be attributed to the industrial action irrespective of whether the employer refers to it explicitly, implicitly or not at all in correspondance with the employee.
 
grbauc
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:12 am

DDR wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
enilria wrote:
It was a Dutch court. I think airlines need to be able to move crews around. That's standard for airlines with multiple hubs. To quote Don Quixote: Whether the pitcher hits the stone or the stone hits the pitcher, it's going to be bad for the pitcher. Meaning: One way or the other the airline has to have that sort of flexibility and they will get it one way or the other.

But this cannot easily be achieved if it means the crew has to move and follow the airline (and by move, I mean house, spouse, kids, etc). Even more so when working for FR and the like who will chase the higher tax break and exit markets quicker than one can feel finally at home after a move.


I am no fan of Ryanair and I'm not siding with them on this. However, airline crews have frequently had to "chase bases." A crew base is never a guaranteed thing. They come and they go. Crews can elect to commute or they can move. I've had to change bases before. It sucks, but it's part of the business. Just ask the 700 AA flight attendants who just got the boot from PHX.



But a judged ruled it was for retaliation for a strike not economic reasons. So ruled against them. It doesn't appear to be "It sucks, but it's part of the business. Just ask the 700 AA flight attendants who just got the boot from PHX"
Different reason not the apparent case here.
 
grbauc
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:15 am

Galwayman wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
I think Emirates or a Chinese airline just got 8 new pilots



I doubt very much if emirates or many other airlines would touch these pilots with a barge pole



Please explain why? It would help many of us on this forum to know why they would be black balled? Please tell?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:31 am

leghorn wrote:
LJ wrote:
Dutch labor laws are applicable to any company doing business in The Netherlands. As such Ryanair isn't disadvantaged in any way.

Labour law only applies to employees employed in the Netherlands. Ryanair decided they didn't want to employ staff in Netherlands are entitled to retrench. Labour Law and Business conducted in the Netherlands can't be conflated in to one topic. The ability to offer services by an individual or company based in one E.U. country to a Customer in another E.U> country is a cornerstone of the European Community/Union


Actually that cornerstone isn't even 10 years old, and might be the ultimate cause of the EU's demise.

Anyway nobody is preventing Ryanair from doing that, they still need to deal with their Dutch employees according to Dutch laws.

In France foreign companies have to pay severance packages to their employees when they close plants and the like, just like French companies, I've never heard of this going before an EU court, as there would be no point. And if they broke labour laws, which happens often as our laws are very strict and complicated, they pay more.

Usually these companies still want to trade in France, so they won't be making too much of a fuss anyway.

Ryanair might be the exception.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:38 am

leghorn wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
No one said FR had to employ these pilots in perpetuity. If they want to part way with them, they have to do it in accordance with Dutch laws; which they didn't do and got fine for it.

It appears that once the employee has created an industrial dispute with their employer they can't be made redundant. Any action made by the employer to legitimately make their position redundant will be attributed to the industrial action irrespective of whether the employer refers to it explicitly, implicitly or not at all in correspondance with the employee.

And still the employer has to abide by the local (Dutch) laws; which they obviously have not.

FR has been sued by so many countries in Europe for the same reason, it's not even funny anymore.

This is FR's motto:
- open a base in country X and employ locals under Irish contract (usually illegally, get sued to convert it to local contract, lose in court and abide by the ruling);
- grab all the local aids you can, and pull out as soon as (or even before) the aids end;
- fire the locals (who are under local law contract) using Irish (or more advantageous if possible) rules;
- get sued, lose in court then complain no one likes FR;
- rinse and repeat somewhere else.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:14 am

leghorn wrote:
A Court in the Netherlands doesn't have to be the final Court to pass judgement on this. All Ryanair have to do is raise a question related to E.U. law and in this particular case it would be to do with a Company's right to trade throughout Europe without barrier. If they raise a question related to application of E.U. law then the court in the Netherlands will have to refer it to the ECJ.


A company or an individual cannot 'just' bring any case they wish to the ECJ; that's not how the system works. And in any case, the EU has long decided that local labour laws, in the absence of a common EU labour law, shall be followed. No if's, but's or when's - that's the law. This ruling does not in any way infringe on Ryanair's right to conduct business in the EU, they just have to do so following the rules. Which, in this case, they chose not to.

leghorn wrote:
If they are put at a competitive disadvantage because they are prevented from trading in to a country by having to pay punitive fines to release their former employees in Holland then they'll have their access to ECJ.
A local labour law which effectively forces an employer to employ employees in perpetuity is a barrier to free trade in the E.U.


You completely misunderstand both what a competitive advantage is, and how national labour law has precedence. Once again, if you wish to set up shop in an EU nation, you have to follow both EU and national law, whichever is applicable. For labour, it's local law. If you find the local labour law to be incompatible with your business model, you're free not to set up shop in that country.

leghorn wrote:
https://nltimes.nl/2017/07/06/ryanair-scraps-eindhoven-flights-chance-growth-netherlands

Ryanair were having problems enough in Eindhoven before the militant Unions started acting up. The base was on a knife-edge before the Unions thought that they Ryanair over a barrel.


This article only says Ryanair were not able to expand in EIN, it says nothing of the profitability of present services. It's strange that Ryanair was unable to prove to a court they base was unprofitable, yet you know for a fact that it was. Would you care to share the source of that information with the rest of us? Before you shoot off any more toes, please keep in mind that FR continue to serve all the destinations out of EIN it did prior to the base closing, by simply reversing the routes.

leghorn wrote:
That is not correct. According to the earlier judgement they had to keep the pilots on the payroll and that they did.


They kept them on the payroll, but didn't assign any flying to them. That resulted in both a loss of income and would, eventually, lead them to lose their license. That's not abiding by the ruling, that's called taking the p1ss and the Dutch court rightfully would have nothing of that.
Signature. You just read one.
 
leghorn
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:37 am

I understand how the ECJ can be introduced in to a dispute and I carefully phrased my references to the ECJ above.
Show me the proof that labour law has ever had precedence over a Company's inherent right to withdraw from a Country in which they no longer wish to do employ staff. It is akin to a shop owner being forced to keep employing shop staff in a shop which he is closing down. Nothing more than normal statutory redundancy should apply and in the end that is the result that Ryanair will be aiming for.
Ryanair will not disclose their cost base to you or me or anyone else and will not allow a court case be used as a "fishing trip" for their competitors.
Ryanair in their employment contract never guaranteed these staff 800 hours flying time. They did not guarantee them 800 to 900 hours of flying time income in a contact. They guaranteed them only base pay. That is the contract that the pilots in their wisdom signed up to but they expect their employer to keep paying for providing a service to them which the employer no longer needs and isn't compelled to take from them.
It is outrageous what has been done by these pilots aided and abetted by the Union but justice will prevail. Confounded cheek.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:39 pm

leghorn wrote:
I understand how the ECJ can be introduced in to a dispute and I carefully phrased my references to the ECJ above.


But the EU have long established, that in the absence of an EU wide labour law, local laws shall prevail. You're basically asking for a case to be turned over to a court, which has no jurisdiction in the matter.

leghorn wrote:
Show me the proof that labour law has ever had precedence over a Company's inherent right to withdraw from a Country in which they no longer wish to do employ staff.


The proof, if one was ever needed, is in the long line of cases FR have lost in jurisdictions all over Europe. This one from NL is but the last in that long line, all proving ample evidence of how local laws must be followed.

leghorn wrote:
It is akin to a shop owner being forced to keep employing shop staff in a shop which he is closing down. Nothing more than normal statutory redundancy should apply and in the end that is the result that Ryanair will be aiming for.


That's the way the law is written in NL. Whether you or FR agree to it is utterly irrelevant. FR chose to establish themselves in EIN and hire staff based there. EU law says quite clearly that if you do that (principal place of working), local laws apply. I'm sure FR knew about that, and either thought they could get away with it (being non-unionised at the time), or just frankly didn't give a shit.

leghorn wrote:
Ryanair will not disclose their cost base to you or me or anyone else and will not allow a court case be used as a "fishing trip" for their competitors.


So you have no evidence to back up your statement. Under the pressure of a multi-million Euro loss, neither could FR. Since all the services out of EIN has been maintained, available information points towards EIN being profitable, contrary to your statement and the unsubstantiated claims by FR. But in the end it really wouldn't have mattered: FR shot themselves good and hard in both feet, by sending no less than 3 mails saying they'd close the base if the strikes took place. That's hard evidence, on which they were rightfully judged.

leghorn wrote:
Ryanair in their employment contract never guaranteed these staff 800 hours flying time. They did not guarantee them 800 to 900 hours of flying time income in a contact. They guaranteed them only base pay. That is the contract that the pilots in their wisdom signed up to but they expect their employer to keep paying for providing a service to them which the employer no longer needs and isn't compelled to take from them.


And, again, that's not how Dutch labour law works.

leghorn wrote:
It is outrageous what has been done by these pilots aided and abetted by the Union but justice will prevail. Confounded cheek.


How's the weather up in Dublin today, and how does it feel working for the epitome of bottom feeding pond scum?
Signature. You just read one.
 
leghorn
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:54 pm

Don't work for Ryanair. Don't work in Ireland.
A ridiculous law can be introduced that death is illegal or jobs must last until the employee decides to leave those jobs . They won't stand for long.
 
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enilria
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:01 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
enilria wrote:
It's really a simple solution. Don't hire any Dutch pilots. Problem solved.


That's the attitude that leads to lowest-common-denominator labor standards, which will be no standards at all.

If airlines are not allowed to freely open and close crew bases you are going to see your pilots come from a single crew base...and it's gonna be Poland or somewhere even cheaper.
 
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enilria
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:05 pm

grbauc wrote:
DDR wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
But this cannot easily be achieved if it means the crew has to move and follow the airline (and by move, I mean house, spouse, kids, etc). Even more so when working for FR and the like who will chase the higher tax break and exit markets quicker than one can feel finally at home after a move.


I am no fan of Ryanair and I'm not siding with them on this. However, airline crews have frequently had to "chase bases." A crew base is never a guaranteed thing. They come and they go. Crews can elect to commute or they can move. I've had to change bases before. It sucks, but it's part of the business. Just ask the 700 AA flight attendants who just got the boot from PHX.



But a judged ruled it was for retaliation for a strike not economic reasons. So ruled against them. It doesn't appear to be "It sucks, but it's part of the business. Just ask the 700 AA flight attendants who just got the boot from PHX"
Different reason not the apparent case here.

It was stated up thread that the judge did not say which arguments won the ruling, so that is not accurate.

Again, EU law is different, but in the USA a company can absolutely close a striking facility. You can fire striking workers and replace them (with the risk of having to rehire them if a contract is reached). To me that's a fair system, but I guess it all depends upon what you are used to. Certainly the EU is the most liberal in this regard with China on the other end of the spectrum and USA more or less in the middle.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:06 pm

leghorn wrote:
It is akin to a shop owner being forced to keep employing shop staff in a shop which he is closing down. Nothing more than normal statutory redundancy should apply and in the end that is the result that Ryanair will be aiming for.

What you fail to understand, although it's been repeated ad nauseum, is that FR can close the EIN base, but has to follow Dutch labor laws; which they did not and got nailed for it.

Again, no one says they must employ the pilots; on the contrary, the judge said FR has to legally fire them, with all the consequences from such firing (i.e., severance package or the likes).
 
leghorn
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:12 pm

What you fail to understand was that the only way to follow Dutch labour laws according to the Judge's interpretation was to keep the staff employed and continue serving an unprofitable route once the employees launched industrial action. An employee knowing that they are working on a service which doesn't earn money for their employer but doesn't wish to be uprouted or made redundant will remain in a constant state of industrial unrest to maintain their position or enjoy a Redundancy windfall well beyond statutory levels.
 
liffy1a
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:37 pm

leghorn wrote:
What you fail to understand was that the only way to follow Dutch labour laws according to the Judge's interpretation was to keep the staff employed and continue serving an unprofitable route once the employees launched industrial action. An employee knowing that they are working on a service which doesn't earn money for their employer but doesn't wish to be uprouted or made redundant will remain in a constant state of industrial unrest to maintain their position or enjoy a Redundancy windfall well beyond statutory levels.


Which routes were unprofitable from Eindhoven? Are they the routes they now operate with crew from other bases?
 
Jetty
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:58 pm

enilria wrote:
grbauc wrote:
DDR wrote:

I am no fan of Ryanair and I'm not siding with them on this. However, airline crews have frequently had to "chase bases." A crew base is never a guaranteed thing. They come and they go. Crews can elect to commute or they can move. I've had to change bases before. It sucks, but it's part of the business. Just ask the 700 AA flight attendants who just got the boot from PHX.



But a judged ruled it was for retaliation for a strike not economic reasons. So ruled against them. It doesn't appear to be "It sucks, but it's part of the business. Just ask the 700 AA flight attendants who just got the boot from PHX"
Different reason not the apparent case here.

It was stated up thread that the judge did not say which arguments won the ruling, so that is not accurate.

Of course a judge says which arguments win a ruling :roll: What they don’t always do is point to one specific argument/fact that tipped the balance, but instead they can use a set of arguments/facts that in totality lead to certain conclusion.

There’s no doubt the judge was convinced Ryanair was plain lying about ‘economic circumstances’ and he called them out on it, which is rare. If you read the ruling you’ll see he was right and there’s no other sensible conclusion possible.
 
Etheereal
Posts: 321
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:44 am

Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:48 pm

PaxPicti wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Either they figured it was making them more money to proceed like this, or they count it as publicity (there is no such thing as bad publicity).

Yes there is.

I've never flown Ryanair and I never will, because of stories like this..

I will fly them regardless; thats why there's no bad press when it involves FR.
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
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enilria
Posts: 9482
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:33 pm

Jetty wrote:
enilria wrote:
grbauc wrote:


But a judged ruled it was for retaliation for a strike not economic reasons. So ruled against them. It doesn't appear to be "It sucks, but it's part of the business. Just ask the 700 AA flight attendants who just got the boot from PHX"
Different reason not the apparent case here.

It was stated up thread that the judge did not say which arguments won the ruling, so that is not accurate.

Of course a judge says which arguments win a ruling :roll: What they don’t always do is point to one specific argument/fact that tipped the balance, but instead they can use a set of arguments/facts that in totality lead to certain conclusion.

There’s no doubt the judge was convinced Ryanair was plain lying about ‘economic circumstances’ and he called them out on it, which is rare. If you read the ruling you’ll see he was right and there’s no other sensible conclusion possible.

So this is true or not: "judged ruled it was for retaliation for a strike"?
 
Galwayman
Posts: 704
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:39 pm

L
How's the weather up in Dublin today, and how does it feel working for the epitome of bottom feeding pond scum?[/quote]


You’d think Dutch pilots would be better off working on improving safety standards at Dutch airlines like KLM than wasting time being jealous of one of the worlds greatest airlines
 
Galwayman
Posts: 704
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Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:44 pm

grbauc wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
I think Emirates or a Chinese airline just got 8 new pilots



I doubt very much if emirates or many other airlines would touch these pilots with a barge pole



Please explain why? It would help many of us on this forum to know why they would be black balled? Please tell?



Is that an actual serious question ???

EK doesn’t do 737 pilots , doesn’t do agitators and doesn’t do unions . It’s not even called anything

IAG won’t have them . WW will make sure of that

They’ll all have to answer the ‘why did you leave your last job question ... and it won’t go down well

Their flying careers are over , except maybe in Nigeria
 
PaxPicti
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:37 pm

Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:36 pm

Etheereal wrote:
I will fly them regardless; thats why there's no bad press when it involves FR.

When almost ALL news about Ryanair is about things like this, yes there is bad press. There is a good reason they were voted the least popular airline in Europe - again.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelgol ... e54ee36488

You might fly them regardless, but "Asked if there was a single airline on which the respondents would never travel, Ryanair was the "no-fly" pick of 70%."
 
Olddog
Posts: 1134
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:44 pm

Ryanair tried also to pretend that they worked in France with pilots under Irish contracts. They were spanked so hard....
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Tugger
Posts: 9262
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:24 pm

Galwayman wrote:
grbauc wrote:
Galwayman wrote:

I doubt very much if emirates or many other airlines would touch these pilots with a barge pole


Please explain why? It would help many of us on this forum to know why they would be black balled? Please tell?

Is that an actual serious question ???

EK doesn’t do 737 pilots , doesn’t do agitators and doesn’t do unions . It’s not even called anything

IAG won’t have them . WW will make sure of that

They’ll all have to answer the ‘why did you leave your last job question ... and it won’t go down well

Their flying careers are over , except maybe in Nigeria

Would an airline with an already strong pilot union care if they had sued their previous employer trying to form a union?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Jetty
Posts: 925
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:31 pm

enilria wrote:
Jetty wrote:
enilria wrote:
It was stated up thread that the judge did not say which arguments won the ruling, so that is not accurate.

Of course a judge says which arguments win a ruling :roll: What they don’t always do is point to one specific argument/fact that tipped the balance, but instead they can use a set of arguments/facts that in totality lead to certain conclusion.

There’s no doubt the judge was convinced Ryanair was plain lying about ‘economic circumstances’ and he called them out on it, which is rare. If you read the ruling you’ll see he was right and there’s no other sensible conclusion possible.

So this is true or not: "judged ruled it was for retaliation for a strike"?

That is true.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1084
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:58 pm

Galwayman wrote:
They’ll all have to answer the ‘why did you leave your last job question ... and it won’t go down well

Sure it will.
Airline recruiter: why did you leave your previous employer?
Pilot: airline closed our base, we were made redundant.

He wouldn't be lying, since it was ordered by a judge.

And, since when do you have to give a long answer to that question? A lot of recruiters no longer ask the question (as it could be seen as discrimination), and a lot of candidates give vague answers; and, if the recruiters were to call the previous employers, HR in the previous company (at least in the US) would not give a reason as it's considered confidential information, I'm sure many countries are following that too. HR would only confirm that person was an employee, that's it.
 
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PW100
Posts: 3717
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:15 pm

enilria wrote:
Tugger wrote:
enilria wrote:
I think airlines need to be able to move crews around.

But to do it for retaliatory reasons OK? I think that was the question at the core here.

Tugg

What I read said that the pilots claimed that. I wasn't clear if that was the reason they won. They might have won on the broader point that airlines can't force you to relocate across country borders which made sense until the EU came along. How would they prove it was retaliation? I did not see where it said they proved that was the case, only that they claimed it.


FR failed to demonstrate that base closure was for economical reasons. If they could do so, then they would have won the ruling without a doubt. Very simple. But they couldn't. So that, and together with other considerations (FR openly threatening with base closure if strike would go on; base closure very soon after strike), it was really a simple decision for the court.

Dutch law does not prevent any airline (even KLM) to close a base (or facility/plant for whatever company in whatever sector) to close for economical reasons. But Dutch law does take employees rights into consideration. And that could end up in court if economical reasons are not convincing. Then it is up to the employer to demonstrate the economical reasons to court if employee board can not be convinced.

Dutch labour law takes workers interests also into consideration, not just share holder interests.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:00 am

Galwayman wrote:
You’d think Dutch pilots would be better off working on improving safety standards at Dutch airlines like KLM than wasting time being jealous of one of the worlds greatest airlines


I've no idea how Dutch pilots are feeling, but let me insert a few corrections to your statement above. First, 'improving safety standards'. Now, I don't know where you source your data, but from where I'm sitting KLM is one of the safest airlines in the world, with what is unquestionable on of the finest safety management programs going. Secondly, please replace the word 'jealous' with 'disdain' and, thirdly, please replace 'greatest' with 'most disliked', and you'll be well on your way to stating actual facts.

Galwayman wrote:
Is that an actual serious question ???

EK doesn’t do 737 pilots , doesn’t do agitators and doesn’t do unions . It’s not even called anything

IAG won’t have them . WW will make sure of that

They’ll all have to answer the ‘why did you leave your last job question ... and it won’t go down well

Their flying careers are over , except maybe in Nigeria


1a: EK has taken hundreds of pilots with a 737 rating, including large numbers from your beloved Ryanair
1b: Where's your evidence any of the laid off pilots were agitators?
1c: And there's the only truth in your post; unions are indeed illegal in the UAE. Thousands of dead constructions workers are testament to that fact.
2: You've no way of knowing what IAG or Willy Walsh will do, absolutely none
3: 'My base was closed, I was made redundant' should suffice
4: They'll be flying sooner and for longer than you could ever dream of
Signature. You just read one.
 
Etheereal
Posts: 321
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:44 am

Re: Judge: FR has to fire 8 pilots and pay them millions in damage

Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:26 am

PaxPicti wrote:
There is a good reason they were voted the least popular airline in Europe - again.

If that was it, then FR would be already on bankrupcy since people wouldnt fly on them.

But hey, they're still packing their planes to the brim :stirthepot:
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:

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