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airbazar
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:15 pm

x1234 wrote:
airbazar, actually looking at the reconfigured 777, the 777 has 28 Delta One Suites while the A350 has 32 (4 more). And I find it funny that the A350 can't even do LAX-SYD while UA's 789 is flying IAH-SYD (6th longest route in the world).

Premium is not just Delta One suits. Premium is every seat that is not economy,

Boeing 777-200ER/LR (7CB) Layout 1
Seats:90 Delta Comfort+, 28 Delta One, 48 Delta Premium Select, 122 Economy
Airbus A350-900 (359)
Seats:32 Delta One, 48 Delta Premium Select, 226 Economy

moyangmm wrote:
[
As I said repeatedly in this forum, the A350 is simply not as capable as it seems to be. Another example is LAX-SIN: UA 789 can do it easily but SQ's 276t A359 can't, even with merely 253 seats(!); you need a 280t A359 with seat number reduce to 161 in order to fly that route.

You can keep saying it. It doesn't make it true.
UA terminated LAX-SIN shortly after it started it exactly because the 789 couldn't do it.
 
moyangmm
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:22 pm

crimsonchin wrote:

None of what you're saying is making sense especially considering someone above just confirmed they flew the damn things on longer routes. Another member just also said DL maybe have initially ordered lower MTOW A350s that couldn't do the route, yet you're repeating that even the upgraded MTOW doesn't have the range, which again isn't true. Are you even reading the thread or just repeating unsubstantiated BS?


The lack of range is a real issue for A350. It is reported by multiple airlines. You can even see the range from airlines' websites, for example:

DL A350, 275t, range 8000 mi: https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/airbus/a350
LH A350, 268t, range 12200km (7580mi): https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/compa ... tners.html

GC distance of LAX-SYD is about 7500mi, you need a bit more still-air range than 8000 mi to fly it. So it is true that even upgraded 275t A350 can't fly that route, with full passenger payload.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:30 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
275 t MTOW, the maximum on the first 12 aircraft

:shakehead: There's nothing preventing those aircraft from going to 277T, if DL wanted to stroke a further cheque.
Qantas had the option of increasing the mtow for its a380s but never did it. I can't see why companies would do that.
 
danj555
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:30 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Ok suppose that DL puts 1.7 A359's on the route.
What do you suppose should happen to the 1.7 B77L's currently operating the route?

I think that the real problem is finding a route suitable to dump the B77L's on, rather than the A359's range.

A359's would save DL quite some money on this route, but sending the B77L's to the desert while they have plenty of life left in them is going to be a huge waste money. This is how airlines should be run, management need to look at the full picture.


Open a new route to Melbourne, or to Singapore, or Auckland. There's no shortage of options.
 
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Kindanew
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:34 pm

moyangmm wrote:
crimsonchin wrote:

None of what you're saying is making sense especially considering someone above just confirmed they flew the damn things on longer routes. Another member just also said DL maybe have initially ordered lower MTOW A350s that couldn't do the route, yet you're repeating that even the upgraded MTOW doesn't have the range, which again isn't true. Are you even reading the thread or just repeating unsubstantiated BS?


The lack of range is a real issue for A350. It is reported by multiple airlines. You can even see the range from airlines' websites, for example:

DL A350, 275t, range 8000 mi: https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/airbus/a350
LH A350, 268t, range 12200km (7580mi): https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/compa ... tners.html

GC distance of LAX-SYD is about 7500mi, you need a bit more still-air range than 8000 mi to fly it. So it is true that even upgraded 275t A350 can't fly that route, with full passenger payload.


Amazing how Airbus have managed to sell almost 70 (not including cancellations and I am aware not all are firm yet) of them this year already, and that includes 20 on a repeat order. I imagine Airbus have a few lined up for Paris.

Not bad for a plane that can barely make it from Toulouse to Barcelona.
 
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kjeld0d
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:36 pm

smartplane wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
This topic has come up several times before. I would refer to other threads on the subject.

On which the Topic Author has participated, and raised the same questions / issues.


Can anyone tell me why the 764 was not as successful as the 763?
 
moyangmm
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:37 pm

Kindanew wrote:

Amazing how Airbus have managed to sell almost 70 (not including cancellations and I am aware not all are firm yet) of them this year already, and that includes 20 on a repeat order. I imagine Airbus have a few lined up for Paris.

Not bad for a plane that can barely make it from Toulouse to Barcelona.


You don't need to exaggerate. It's a plane with 8000 mi still-air range. It can do shorter TPAC fine (such as US - JP), but no it can't do LAX-SYD with a full passenger payload.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:41 pm

moyangmm wrote:

The lack of range is a real issue for A350. It is reported by multiple airlines.


Airbus must be paying massive compensation to airlines "duped" by their sales team!!!
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:43 pm

moyangmm wrote:
Kindanew wrote:

Amazing how Airbus have managed to sell almost 70 (not including cancellations and I am aware not all are firm yet) of them this year already, and that includes 20 on a repeat order. I imagine Airbus have a few lined up for Paris.

Not bad for a plane that can barely make it from Toulouse to Barcelona.


You don't need to exaggerate. It's a plane with 8000 mi still-air range. It can do shorter TPAC fine (such as US - JP), but no it can't do LAX-SYD with a full passenger payload.


The A350 or Delta's A350?
@DadCelo
 
StTim
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:49 pm

I choose to side with Zeke who flies them rather than unsubstantiated and repetitive rumours. The thread in Technical ops where three great knowledgable posters discussed ranges at certain data points was very informative.

I think it was linked on the first page but I include it here. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1406387
 
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zkojq
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:51 pm

I trust Zeke's word on this. He has more credibly on this matter than anyone else. The A350 has fantastic Payload/Range capabilities.


RickNRoll wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
275 t MTOW, the maximum on the first 12 aircraft

:shakehead: There's nothing preventing those aircraft from going to 277T, if DL wanted to stroke a further cheque.
Qantas had the option of increasing the mtow for its a380s but never did it. I can't see why companies would do that.

The higher MTOW option for the A380 was only available for aircraft built after MSN060. Because of this, only two of QF's A380s could have had that capability - a small subfleet.
First to fly the 787-9
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:01 pm

I also concur. The thread that was linked earlier and posted by the likes of Zeke has more credibility than the Airbus/Boeing fanboys trying to discredit/mislead each others aircraft in this thread.
 
ITSTours
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:08 pm

moyangmm wrote:
Kindanew wrote:

Amazing how Airbus have managed to sell almost 70 (not including cancellations and I am aware not all are firm yet) of them this year already, and that includes 20 on a repeat order. I imagine Airbus have a few lined up for Paris.

Not bad for a plane that can barely make it from Toulouse to Barcelona.


You don't need to exaggerate. It's a plane with 8000 mi still-air range. It can do shorter TPAC fine (such as US - JP), but no it can't do LAX-SYD with a full passenger payload.


Amazing how you constantly ignore the evidence against your claim.

zeke wrote:
We fly IAD-HKG which is also 15-15:30 with the A350 (ie further than LAX-SYD)..


You don't trust Zeke? Then here is another evidence. Cathay is constantly flying A359s on IAD-HKG route.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CPA869

Stop making baseless claims.
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:15 pm

ITSTours wrote:
moyangmm wrote:
evanb wrote:
I don't think DL made any mistake. Unlike some other carriers, DL didn't order the A350 as an ULH airliner. They had the B77L as an ULH airliner. So they simply didn't need range and they chose to reduce their operating costs by having a lower MTOW.


They did make a mistake. Their original 268t frames had problems flying relatively short TPAC routes, such as DTW-PEK; they had to up-rate them to 275t to be able to haul a profitable payload.

A350 is underwhelming as a regular TPAC aircraft, let alone an ULH airliner.


Zeke just a few posts above gave his data point for A350 flying IAD-HKG without any problem.
You also largely misinterpreted the BTS data I showed before.

Why are you constantly trying to mislead people here, arguing A350 is significantly worse than 787?



Of course Zeke is talking about a CX A350 (I.e. using CX configurations, with CX operating rules, CX routes and CX operating margins). While a perfect A350 can fly a very long way empty, once it is utilized as the airline wishes, the reasonable capabilities decrease. A 77L flew the long way from HKG to LHR (22 hours) on an exhibition flight, but has a hard time flying 18 hours during normal airline operations. This fleet decision has as much to do with how the airline operates as it has to do with how the airplane operates.

Just some things to think about...

Logistically, the 777 Pilot Base in LAX is a direct result of the SYD flight, if the 777 is removed from that route, the pilot base would likely have to be switched to an A350 Base (I.e expensive)

As far as revenue, Until the 777 reconfigurations, the 777 held 15% more D1 seats than the A350 and an equal number of “premium” seats. With the reconfigurations, the 777 has 14% less D1 seat, but double the number of “premium” seats (28J, 48W, 90Y+, 122Y) vs the A350 (32J, 48W, 226Y). DL considers anything other than standard economy to be a “premium seat”.

Additionally there is a difference in both the cargo volume and overall weight the aircraft can carry (is the hold full of gold bars that weigh a lot or Koala Fur that takes up a lot of space?) based on the ratio of Available space to available weight it could tip the scales one way or the other.

As far as fuel is concerned, both aircraft should be near their maximum ability, holding at least 16-17 hours of fuel, and the most “problematic” areas of fuel occur at both ends of the route between. The plane has to have the ability to fly from 2.5-4 hours (between HNL-LAX/NOU-SYD) with the worst case scenario of A) a single engine, b) depressurized or c) single engine while depressurized. As far as HKG-IAD is concerned, an engine failure 2.5 hours before landing means a diversion to an inconvenient airport that is maybe 1 hour away.

With all those factors considered, (and I can’t speak to the specifics that made DL decide one way or the other) at the current time, DL has decided that their 77Ls are best used on the SYD-LAX route vs thier A359s. If CX was operating the route, CXs revenue curve and operation requirements might come up with a different solution.
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gokmengs
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:23 pm

I can’t believe what a.net has become... you have confirmed pilots with hard facts and you have kids making post based on opinion and bs one after an other, its no surprise so many threads get locked here. Still I learned a few things, and had few laughs after seeing so many posters get owned. I don’t understand how you can be an av geek and want only one manufacturer to succeed. I’m lucky I fly TK, so much variety and soon 787 and 350 joins the fleet can’t wait to fly them both.
Yaşa Mustafa Kemal Paşa Yaşa, Adın Yazılacak Mücevher Taşa
 
moyangmm
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:46 pm

ITSTours wrote:
You don't trust Zeke? Then here is another evidence. Cathay is constantly flying A359s on IAD-HKG route.


I am not disagreeing with Zeke. CX A359 has only 280 seats whereas DL has 306 seats. I am not saying DL A359 can't fly LAX-SYD if they decides to block seats. I said it can't with full passenger.
 
Motorhussy
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:47 pm

So to summarise from what I’ve read:

* The A350-900 can fly SYD-LAX no problem.
* Some of DL’s A359’s are limited on the route being of a lower weight variety.
* The issue with those lower weight varieties that DL operates has been overcome with Canberra now being a diversion airport for SYD.
* Regardless, DL has chosen to keep the 77L on the route as replacing it on the SYD route would mean an expensive new pilot base at LAX.

Is there anything I’ve missed?
come visit the south pacific
 
moyangmm
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:52 pm

Motorhussy wrote:
* The A350-900 can fly SYD-LAX no problem.


Surely it can with a significant amount of seats blocked.

Motorhussy wrote:
* Some of DL’s A359’s are limited on the route being of a lower weight variety.
* The issue with those lower weight varieties that DL operates has been overcome with Canberra now being a diversion airport for SYD.


All DL’s A359 are 275t now.

Motorhussy wrote:
* Regardless, DL has chosen to keep the 77L on the route as replacing it on the SYD route would mean an expensive new pilot base at LAX.


That could be one reason, but certainly the only one.
 
umichman
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:55 pm

NateGreat wrote:
I do remember early on they said that the first route for the A350s would be LAX-SYD, or at least rumored.


They never said that nor do I remember any such rumor. Sounds like someone's speculation on a'net (which I wouldn't call a rumor). Here is what they did say about them. Note the comparison of the A350-900 with the 747 and the A330-900neo with the 767 in their press release.

https://news.delta.com/delta-adds-a350- ... fleet-plan

"The long-range Airbus A350-900 will continue Delta's optimization of its Pacific network, operating primarily on long-range routes between the U.S. and Asia."

"The widebody A330-900neo, an enhancement of Airbus' successful A330 family featuring greater aerodynamic and economic efficiency, will be deployed on medium-haul trans-Atlantic markets as well as select routes connecting the U.S. West Coast and Asia."
 
Motorhussy
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:10 pm

moyangmm wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
* The A350-900 can fly SYD-LAX no problem.


Surely it can with a significant amount of seats blocked.

Motorhussy wrote:
* Some of DL’s A359’s are limited on the route being of a lower weight variety.
* The issue with those lower weight varieties that DL operates has been overcome with Canberra now being a diversion airport for SYD.


All DL’s A359 are 275t now.

Motorhussy wrote:
* Regardless, DL has chosen to keep the 77L on the route as replacing it on the SYD route would mean an expensive new pilot base at LAX.


That could be one reason, but certainly the only one.


Your opinion bares no weight on this for me as you are blinded by your rabid and incoherent dislike of Airbus.

You constantly refuse to honour the truth despite being presented with it regularly.

I will not waste any further time responding to your malevolent rantings.
Last edited by Motorhussy on Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
come visit the south pacific
 
ITSTours
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:17 pm

moyangmm wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
You don't trust Zeke? Then here is another evidence. Cathay is constantly flying A359s on IAD-HKG route.


I am not disagreeing with Zeke. CX A359 has only 280 seats whereas DL has 306 seats. I am not saying DL A359 can't fly LAX-SYD if they decides to block seats. I said it can't with full passenger.


You are always tilting your claim every time it is refuted, and always without any evidence.

moyangmm wrote:
Also people tend to ignore that A350-900 performs much worse in real world than its ACAP. There are data points of DL A359's real world performance on PEK-DTW suggesting that 275t A359's real world range is at best around 6000nm with full passenger + bags (~300) and no cargo. That is not even close to a B789 before the MTOW increase! A 2.5t MTOW increase on 789 will further widen that gap.


This is what you once claimed. I refuted it with the Delta's real-world data.

Then you came back with,
moyangmm wrote:
Thanks for the data! I corrected myself in this thread (may have been deleted) that 359 can fly around 6800 nm, not 6000 nm, with full pax + bags and no cargo.


And now you are suddenly turned back into the baseless claim that A359 cannot fly 6500nm.

You also once said:

moyangmm wrote:
The DL DTW-PEK flight report suggests that that flight is at MTOW. No you can't take more payload or fly farther if you are at MTOW.


When DL also flies A350 for DTW-PVG and ATL-ICN which is definitely farther than DTW-PEK.

You did not respond.

Just please stop.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:33 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
275 t MTOW, the maximum on the first 12 aircraft

:shakehead: There's nothing preventing those aircraft from going to 277T, if DL wanted to stroke a further cheque.
Qantas had the option of increasing the mtow for its a380s but never did it. I can't see why companies would do that.

Because not all of their aircraft would've been eligible for that increase.

They then weighed the benefits of increased capability in a few aircraft, versus the cost of having to subfleet the aircraft, and came to the conclusion that the cost of doing so wasn't worth it. Not really surprising, seeing as the only route that was much of a challenge for even their older birds was the DFW westbound.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
coolian2
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:37 pm

moyangmm wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
You don't trust Zeke? Then here is another evidence. Cathay is constantly flying A359s on IAD-HKG route.


I am not disagreeing with Zeke. CX A359 has only 280 seats whereas DL has 306 seats. I am not saying DL A359 can't fly LAX-SYD if they decides to block seats. I said it can't with full passenger.

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LAX772LR
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:37 pm

kjeld0d wrote:
smartplane wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
This topic has come up several times before. I would refer to other threads on the subject.

On which the Topic Author has participated, and raised the same questions / issues.

Can anyone tell me why the 764 was not as successful as the 763?

(1) Double-stretch that sacrificed range/payload for capacity
(2) Inability to load LD3s in tandem, like most other widebodies

The A330 ate it alive, for both of the above. Some Boeing-centric airlines (e.g. AA, JL, NH, etc) chose the 772A/772ER to replace their trijets, instead of the 764ER.

Boeing planned to address issue-1 with the 767-400ERX, with a larger wing and more powerful engine. KQ was the only airline that ordered it however, and later converted that order to 77Es once the 764ERX was dropped (due to the 747 stretch with which it would've shared the engine, also being dropped)

There was really no way around issue-2 though, and the (lack of) sales show for it.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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par13del
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:53 pm

Where I am lost is with the A350 being so much more fuel efficient than the 777L why not use it, even if you have to block seats it should be more profitable, right?
 
Motorhussy
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:11 pm

par13del wrote:
Where I am lost is with the A350 being so much more fuel efficient than the 777L why not use it, even if you have to block seats it should be more profitable, right?


Have a look at my summary of facts at response #68
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zeke
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:12 pm

moyangmm wrote:

I am not disagreeing with Zeke. CX A359 has only 280 seats whereas DL has 306 seats. I am not saying DL A359 can't fly LAX-SYD if they decides to block seats. I said it can't with full passenger.


As I mentioned above our payload capability IAD-HKG when using KHH as an alternate is around 42 tonnes, or 420 passengers. DL could take 306 passengers and 10+ tonnes of cargo.

We don’t need MTOW usually when leaving IAD.
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Pi7472000
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:15 pm

I just flew DL 40 from SYD to LAX and the plane felt outdated. Would be great to see the A350 to SYD. The service was really poor too from the senior crew. I have had outstanding service on Delta from MSP to DEN on an 1.5 flight. They really need to watch who they staff on international flights! I think the A350 along with their best crews would help this route.
 
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scbriml
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:38 pm

par13del wrote:
Where I am lost is with the A350 being so much more fuel efficient than the 777L why not use it, even if you have to block seats it should be more profitable, right?


DL is not stupid, they'll be making the most efficient possible use of the resources available to them. DL still owns 10 77L that they have to fly, regardless of whether the A350 may or may not be more profitable (or can even make the distance ;) ).

So, it may be more profitable overall for DL to use an A350 on DTW-PVG and a 77L on ATL-JNB rather than vice versa.
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Web500sjc
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:54 pm

zeke wrote:
moyangmm wrote:

I am not disagreeing with Zeke. CX A359 has only 280 seats whereas DL has 306 seats. I am not saying DL A359 can't fly LAX-SYD if they decides to block seats. I said it can't with full passenger.


As I mentioned above our payload capability IAD-HKG when using KHH as an alternate is around 42 tonnes, or 420 passengers. DL could take 306 passengers and 10+ tonnes of cargo.

We don’t need MTOW usually when leaving IAD.



Hey Zeke, just as an indication of overwater vs overland routes...
AMS-HKG and HKG-AKL are about 5000NM, same direction of travel, only difference is overland vs overwater both are A350s. What would the difference in fuel load be on those routes?
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LDRA
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:07 am

Maybe SYD-LAX cargo rate is good? Who else carries significant cargoes on flights between Australia and us?

What equipment does Qantas UA AA or others use? 787 and A380 right?
Last edited by LDRA on Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
moyangmm
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Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:08 am

ITSTours wrote:
moyangmm wrote:
Thanks for the data! I corrected myself in this thread (may have been deleted) that 359 can fly around 6800 nm, not 6000 nm, with full pax + bags and no cargo.


And now you are suddenly turned back into the baseless claim that A359 cannot fly 6500nm.



I conceded that the range of DL 275t is around 6800nm (with full pax), which is about 7825 miles. This agrees with the range on DL's website, 8000 miles. What is the problem? I am arguing that an 8000 miles of still-air range is not enough to fly LAX-SYD in real world, unless with some seats blocked.

ITSTours wrote:

You also once said:

moyangmm wrote:
The DL DTW-PEK flight report suggests that that flight is at MTOW. No you can't take more payload or fly farther if you are at MTOW.


When DL also flies A350 for DTW-PVG and ATL-ICN which is definitely farther than DTW-PEK.
You did not respond.

Just please stop.


You took that out of the context. That particular DTW-PEK flight is with about 233 passengers, at MTOW, but it has quite a bit of cargo (25t maybe?). DL can definitely trade some cargo and/or passengers in order to fly longer. Given its 8000 mile range, it is not surprising at all that a DL A359 can do DTW-PVG or ATL-ICN.

Get your numbers straight before trying to "debunk" me.
 
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seabosdca
Posts: 6382
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:35 am

moyangmm wrote:
I conceded that the range of DL 275t is around 6800nm (with full pax), which is about 7825 miles. This agrees with the range on DL's website, 8000 miles. What is the problem? I am arguing that an 8000 miles of still-air range is not enough to fly LAX-SYD in real world, unless with some seats blocked.


The problem is that you have to somehow reconcile your claim with the fact that 275 t A350-900s in real-world configurations are routinely flying routes with full passenger loads that are a full hour longer than LAX-SYD. 26 pax is 3 t at most—about half an hour of fuel. Then there is SQ, which has occasionally flown SFO-SIN with its "regular" 275 t 359 in a 253-seat configuration—a route that is nearly two hours longer than LAX-SYD, with a payload that's about one hour's worth of fuel lighter than Delta's. I don't know why you are trying so doggedly to prove something about the A350-900 that is contradicted by multiple existing A350-900 operations. At 275 t and 300 pax, it's a ~7000 nm plane in the real world, and you could save a lot of time by accepting that reality.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 261
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:25 am

zeke wrote:
moyangmm wrote:

I am not disagreeing with Zeke. CX A359 has only 280 seats whereas DL has 306 seats. I am not saying DL A359 can't fly LAX-SYD if they decides to block seats. I said it can't with full passenger.


As I mentioned above our payload capability IAD-HKG when using KHH as an alternate is around 42 tonnes, or 420 passengers. DL could take 306 passengers and 10+ tonnes of cargo.

We don’t need MTOW usually when leaving IAD.


Really this is enough to end the ridiculous argument.
 
QF744
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:05 pm

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:39 am

I'd much rather be flying on the refurbished B777-200LR with the all-new cabins and also the 3-3-3 in economy over the A350.

You can see the new interiors in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0qQmyhsVkw
OVER 150 FLIGHTS PER YEAR.
 
User avatar
A330freak
Posts: 248
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:28 pm

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:10 am

For those that are interested, here's some data published by the Australian government regarding passenger and freight loads on international flights.
https://bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoi ... eries.aspx

After a bit of number crunching, since DL started operations to SYD (data is only available up to Jan 19), on average each flight carried;
- 236 passengers (LAX-SYD)
- 11.8 tonnes of freight/mail (LAX-SYD)

-241 pax (SYD-LAX)
-8.2 tonnes of freight/mail (SYD-LAX)


For a more recent comparison, between Jan17 and Jan 19 the figures are
- 248 passengers (LAX-SYD)
- 10.7 tonnes of freight/mail (LAX-SYD)

-248 pax (SYD-LAX)
-10 tonnes of freight/mail (SYD-LAX)
 
anrec80
Posts: 1744
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:12 am

kjeld0d wrote:
smartplane wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
This topic has come up several times before. I would refer to other threads on the subject.

On which the Topic Author has participated, and raised the same questions / issues.


Can anyone tell me why the 764 was not as successful as the 763?

A bit too late to the party? 764 is rather a niche aircraft for East-Coast-Europe, plus in entered when everyone was getting 77E and 77Ws, and A330s took over the market segment.
 
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Francoflier
Posts: 4776
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:41 am

moyangmm wrote:
I am not disagreeing with Zeke. CX A359 has only 280 seats whereas DL has 306 seats. I am not saying DL A359 can't fly LAX-SYD if they decides to block seats. I said it can't with full passenger.


And you'd be wrong.
From the real world data I have access to, I can't see the 275t version not being able to carry 280 pax + bags on LAX-SYD, even accounting for headwinds and extra alternate/diversion fuel.
Note that in this case, it would barely be able to carry any cargo.

That being said, I am baffled, like many, by your unfounded critical stance on the airplane.

First of all, the airplane does exactly what it says on the box, and what the buyers were told it would do. Your insinuation that there is some sort of problem with the airplane for DL would have you questioning DL's capacity to properly select an airplane instead of the scathing accusation of the airplane you are trying to proffer.

Second, the 359 is a 77E class airplane, not a 77L class airplane. You can't accuse it of not being able to carry the same payload over the same distance as an airplane that's 75 metric tonnes heavier at takeoff.

Third, I would say it's pretty admirable that, given the above, three 359 would very likely be able to do 95%+ of what the 77L does on that route while, by my estimate, burning about 15 to 20t less fuel...
Last edited by Francoflier on Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2530
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:43 am

Okay,
So let me put this in easy terms. Someone wasn't happy that their choice of airline didn't offer their
choice of aircraft on a particular route. So without any real engineering or fact based evidence accused
the airline and manufacturer of not being able to use the aircraft on the route. This clearly wasn't the
case, and DL uses a perfectly fine aircraft with a good product on the route.

End of Story this post shouldn't have got this far.
 
moyangmm
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:22 pm

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:48 am

Francoflier wrote:

And you'd be wrong.
From the real world data I have access to, I can't see the 275t version not being able to carry 280 pax + bags on LAX-SYD, even accounting for headwinds and extra alternate/diversion fuel.
Note that in this case, it would barely be able to carry any cargo.


You said 275t version is able to carry 280 pax + bags on LAX-SYD, but no cargo. DL's A350 has 306 seats, so it needs to block seats on LAX-SYD. So you agree with my following statement: "DL's 275t A359 cannot fly LAX-SYD with full passenger payload", right?

I don't understand why you are arguing with me.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 4776
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:01 am

moyangmm wrote:
Francoflier wrote:

And you'd be wrong.
From the real world data I have access to, I can't see the 275t version not being able to carry 280 pax + bags on LAX-SYD, even accounting for headwinds and extra alternate/diversion fuel.
Note that in this case, it would barely be able to carry any cargo.


You said 275t version is able to carry 280 pax + bags on LAX-SYD, but no cargo. DL's A350 has 306 seats, so it needs to block seats on LAX-SYD. So you agree with my following statement: "DL's 275t A359 cannot fly LAX-SYD with full passenger payload", right?

I don't understand why you are arguing with me.


I'd have to have access to DL's 359 ZFW in their config, so I wouldn't know, although I'm guessing that their less premium config makes for some weight savings which would, at least in part, compensate for the extra ~2.5T needed for the extra pax and bags.
It wouldn't surprise me if it could still do it.
How many pax do DL's 77L carry btw? (I genuinely don't know)


Although I'd like to ask again: what exactly is your criticism of the airplane and where do you believe the 'problem' lies for DL or other airlines?
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3670
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:36 am

REALLY? The question makes no sense'' Delta bought the airplane they wanted to do the job they intended it to DO, They didn't consult any of you, Nor ME..
They have sharp people in their flight planning department and they bought the airplane to do the JOB they intended it TO do, Maybe you could make this argument directly TO Delta??
 
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compensateme
Posts: 3245
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:16 am

Lufthansa wrote:
Okay,
So let me put this in easy terms. Someone wasn't happy that their choice of airline didn't offer their
choice of aircraft on a particular route. So without any real engineering or fact based evidence accused
the airline and manufacturer of not being able to use the aircraft on the route. This clearly wasn't the
case, and DL uses a perfectly fine aircraft with a good product on the route.

End of Story this post shouldn't have got this far.


Exactly. This topic has been beaten to death, discussed endlessly in multiple threads despite ZERO credible evidence - a violation of a.net’s TOS...
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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AECM
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:52 am

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:49 am

zeke wrote:
moyangmm wrote:

I am not disagreeing with Zeke. CX A359 has only 280 seats whereas DL has 306 seats. I am not saying DL A359 can't fly LAX-SYD if they decides to block seats. I said it can't with full passenger.


As I mentioned above our payload capability IAD-HKG when using KHH as an alternate is around 42 tonnes, or 420 passengers. DL could take 306 passengers and 10+ tonnes of cargo.

We don’t need MTOW usually when leaving IAD.
Hi Zeke. Just out of curiosity, and if you have some spare time, can you calculate how much payload could a Cathay A359 carry on a ATL-JNB route?
 
fjhc
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:34 pm

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:51 am

Going back a little way, and away from, erm, repetitive discussions, why was Canberra not available for use as a diversion? According to Wiki Qatar and Singapore both fly there with 777-300ERs, so the airport can clearly handle large aircraft.
 
RandWkop
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 10:56 pm

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:23 pm

Francoflier wrote:
moyangmm wrote:
Francoflier wrote:

And you'd be wrong.
From the real world data I have access to, I can't see the 275t version not being able to carry 280 pax + bags on LAX-SYD, even accounting for headwinds and extra alternate/diversion fuel.
Note that in this case, it would barely be able to carry any cargo.


You said 275t version is able to carry 280 pax + bags on LAX-SYD, but no cargo. DL's A350 has 306 seats, so it needs to block seats on LAX-SYD. So you agree with my following statement: "DL's 275t A359 cannot fly LAX-SYD with full passenger payload", right?

I don't understand why you are arguing with me.


I'd have to have access to DL's 359 ZFW in their config, so I wouldn't know, although I'm guessing that their less premium config makes for some weight savings which would, at least in part, compensate for the extra ~2.5T needed for the extra pax and bags.
It wouldn't surprise me if it could still do it.
How many pax do DL's 77L carry btw? (I genuinely don't know)


Although I'd like to ask again: what exactly is your criticism of the airplane and where do you believe the 'problem' lies for DL or other airlines?

288 or 291 depending on configuration. Only 122 economy, 90 comfort+, premium select 48, Delta one 28. Alternate configuration; economy 220, premium select 48, Delta one 28. Not sure which flies to SYD.
A350 premium select 48, Delta one 32, economy 226.
The configuration may have some bearing on the aircraft type used.
 
aleknowak77
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:41 pm

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:59 pm

kjeld0d wrote:
smartplane wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
This topic has come up several times before. I would refer to other threads on the subject.

On which the Topic Author has participated, and raised the same questions / issues.


Can anyone tell me why the 764 was not as successful as the 763?


https://www.aviatorjoe.net/go/compare/7 ... /A330-200/

The 330-200 was a major 764 competitor (I think). The performance just wasn't there. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9434
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:30 pm

A330freak wrote:
For those that are interested, here's some data published by the Australian government regarding passenger and freight loads on international flights.
https://bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoi ... eries.aspx

After a bit of number crunching, since DL started operations to SYD (data is only available up to Jan 19), on average each flight carried;
- 236 passengers (LAX-SYD)
- 11.8 tonnes of freight/mail (LAX-SYD)

-241 pax (SYD-LAX)
-8.2 tonnes of freight/mail (SYD-LAX)


For a more recent comparison, between Jan17 and Jan 19 the figures are
- 248 passengers (LAX-SYD)
- 10.7 tonnes of freight/mail (LAX-SYD)

-248 pax (SYD-LAX)
-10 tonnes of freight/mail (SYD-LAX)


As I suspected, a DL A359 on this route would have had a really poor average load factor and generate less revenue due to its lower number of premium seats. This route is all about the premium passenger for DL, hence why they use the aircraft with the most amount of premium (or non-Y) seats. Better to use a 288-seat 77L with lots of premium seats than a 306-seat A359 with a large Y cabin. To me this is the real reason and answer to the OP's question.
 
AsiaTravel
Posts: 308
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:28 am

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:51 pm

airbazar wrote:
As I suspected, a DL A359 on this route would have had a really poor average load factor and generate less revenue due to its lower number of premium seats. This route is all about the premium passenger for DL, hence why they use the aircraft with the most amount of premium (or non-Y) seats. Better to use a 288-seat 77L with lots of premium seats than a 306-seat A359 with a large Y cabin. To me this is the real reason and answer to the OP's question.


Correct me if I'm wrong but the A359 has more premium seats than the 77L, unless you count Comfort+ as premium.
According to wiki:
A359: 32J48W226Y
B77L: 28J48W212Y

A359 has 5% more premium seats and 6.5% more economy seats.
 
johns624
Posts: 2044
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: How come the DL A350 can't fly LAX-SYD it is rumored!?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:03 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
I just flew DL 40 from SYD to LAX and the plane felt outdated. Would be great to see the A350 to SYD. The service was really poor too from the senior crew. I have had outstanding service on Delta from MSP to DEN on an 1.5 flight. They really need to watch who they staff on international flights! I think the A350 along with their best crews would help this route.

Was it a refurbished 77L or not? Also, how did it feel "outdated"?
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