ATCtower
Posts: 492
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:46 am

Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:12 pm

I’ll echo a few others here that in the interests of safety and clarity one language should be universal. If I’m not mistaken our .65 mandates that for US controllers but also says we may follow up with other than prescribed phraseology. I have on a number of occasions used this with foreign pilots if I happen to speak enough of their language. Say the instruction exactly as I am supposed to and in English then reiterate the clearance in their native tongue. Not only has it saved my butt a few times but I’ve found the pilots to be appreciative.

I realize half the pilots here in America don’t even listen when we are talking to them as it is but for the other half it would be great to have that second set of ears listening and making sure I don’t inadvertently do something dumb. If we are using a multitude of different languages from across the globe, the half of pilots who are listening likely can’t understand what is being said to the other aircraft...

trnswrld wrote:
What an absolute disgrace she is to Air Traffic Control. I have nothing else to say :(


A little dramatic don’t you think? Just imagine the things we say when the mic isn’t keyed.
By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
 
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intrance
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:35 pm

Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:25 pm

triple3driver wrote:
ChrisEtihad272 wrote:
it was my understanding that all Air traffic control and aircraft pilots are supposed to speak in english to stop any incidents language related.

if that is not the law then it should be!


That's the way it should be, but in practice it's not. When I flew the 737, one of the worst aspects of flying to Latin America was the fact that more often than not the ATC would speak Spanish rather than English, which is obviously confusing if you're not local, like if you're American, which a lot of us going down there are. Let's just say, it was nerve-racking going down there, it's absolutely terrible. Even now, there have been a few occasions in the short time that I've been flying the A330 where the controllers would speak in their native language and it can hamper situational awareness drastically, although it hasn't occurred nearly to the extent that I've seen in the Caribbean and Latin America.


And now put yourself into the shoes of foreign pilots flying into the US with the utterly non-standard phraseology used by ATC there ;) .

Yes, it's an issue when not everyone speaks the same language. And though everyone nowadays has to pass an English proficiency check, the truth is also still that other languages besides English are considered official ICAO languages and are spoken throughout the world. I'd say it is partially the responsibility of crew to perhaps familiarize yourself with some foreign terms if you operate a lot into those areas where a different main language is spoken (besides how to order drinks after the flight :lol: ). That will help out a lot with SA.

I operate in Europe and can generally pick up cues about what is going on with the traffic around me in French, German, Swedish, a bit of Italian, bit of Spanish etc. Pick up on how to say the relevant numbers, climb, descend and other common clearances. Together with tools like TCAS it helps out a lot with the general SA picture around you, takes minimal effort for a significant benefit. Risk mitigation is part of our jobs...
 
DDR
Posts: 1561
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:08 pm

intrance wrote:
triple3driver wrote:
ChrisEtihad272 wrote:
it was my understanding that all Air traffic control and aircraft pilots are supposed to speak in english to stop any incidents language related.

if that is not the law then it should be!


That's the way it should be, but in practice it's not. When I flew the 737, one of the worst aspects of flying to Latin America was the fact that more often than not the ATC would speak Spanish rather than English, which is obviously confusing if you're not local, like if you're American, which a lot of us going down there are. Let's just say, it was nerve-racking going down there, it's absolutely terrible. Even now, there have been a few occasions in the short time that I've been flying the A330 where the controllers would speak in their native language and it can hamper situational awareness drastically, although it hasn't occurred nearly to the extent that I've seen in the Caribbean and Latin America.


And now put yourself into the shoes of foreign pilots flying into the US with the utterly non-standard phraseology used by ATC there ;) .

Yes, it's an issue when not everyone speaks the same language. And though everyone nowadays has to pass an English proficiency check, the truth is also still that other languages besides English are considered official ICAO languages and are spoken throughout the world. I'd say it is partially the responsibility of crew to perhaps familiarize yourself with some foreign terms if you operate a lot into those areas where a different main language is spoken (besides how to order drinks after the flight :lol: ). That will help out a lot with SA.

I operate in Europe and can generally pick up cues about what is going on with the traffic around me in French, German, Swedish, a bit of Italian, bit of Spanish etc. Pick up on how to say the relevant numbers, climb, descend and other common clearances. Together with tools like TCAS it helps out a lot with the general SA picture around you, takes minimal effort for a significant benefit. Risk mitigation is part of our jobs...


Sometimes I feel really sorry for the foreign pilots flying in to JFK. The controllers are often flat out rude to them.
 
triple3driver
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:24 pm

Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:32 pm

DDR wrote:
intrance wrote:
triple3driver wrote:

That's the way it should be, but in practice it's not. When I flew the 737, one of the worst aspects of flying to Latin America was the fact that more often than not the ATC would speak Spanish rather than English, which is obviously confusing if you're not local, like if you're American, which a lot of us going down there are. Let's just say, it was nerve-racking going down there, it's absolutely terrible. Even now, there have been a few occasions in the short time that I've been flying the A330 where the controllers would speak in their native language and it can hamper situational awareness drastically, although it hasn't occurred nearly to the extent that I've seen in the Caribbean and Latin America.


And now put yourself into the shoes of foreign pilots flying into the US with the utterly non-standard phraseology used by ATC there ;) .

Yes, it's an issue when not everyone speaks the same language. And though everyone nowadays has to pass an English proficiency check, the truth is also still that other languages besides English are considered official ICAO languages and are spoken throughout the world. I'd say it is partially the responsibility of crew to perhaps familiarize yourself with some foreign terms if you operate a lot into those areas where a different main language is spoken (besides how to order drinks after the flight :lol: ). That will help out a lot with SA.

I operate in Europe and can generally pick up cues about what is going on with the traffic around me in French, German, Swedish, a bit of Italian, bit of Spanish etc. Pick up on how to say the relevant numbers, climb, descend and other common clearances. Together with tools like TCAS it helps out a lot with the general SA picture around you, takes minimal effort for a significant benefit. Risk mitigation is part of our jobs...


Sometimes I feel really sorry for the foreign pilots flying in to JFK. The controllers are often flat out rude to them.


Indeed it is, that's something that I feel is not emphasized enough in flight training and that I wish I was prepared for the first time I flew into Central America. That said, I just could not figure out Spanish for the life of me, even over the course of over a decade flying down there. Europe is generally a lot easier for me given that my parents were European immigrants and I went to Europe as a personal trip quite a few times in my youth, so I'm able to pick up cues a lot easier than before. Personally, I feel that either everyone should speak English, or whatever language the ICAO wishes, as long as everyone speaks it, or have us all actually learn a few languages that are fairly common, that way we can better understand what's going on, because, yeah it's doable, but it's not exactly great, is it? Also, yeah, the controllers at Kennedy can be pretty terrible, an old friend of mine who works at Swiss and recently transferred to the 777 from the A330/A340 repeatedly tells me how much he loves that he doesn't have to fly to JFK anymore, and frankly they're not the most pleasant to work with even if you're local.
I have no special talents, just a passion for flying
 
ATCtower
Posts: 492
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:46 am

Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:41 am

triple3driver wrote:
DDR wrote:
intrance wrote:

And now put yourself into the shoes of foreign pilots flying into the US with the utterly non-standard phraseology used by ATC there ;) .

I operate in Europe and can generally pick up cues about what is going on with the traffic around me in French, German, Swedish, a bit of Italian, bit of Spanish etc. Pick up on how to say the relevant numbers, climb, descend and other common clearances. Together with tools like TCAS it helps out a lot with the general SA picture around you, takes minimal effort for a significant benefit. Risk mitigation is part of our jobs...


Sometimes I feel really sorry for the foreign pilots flying in to JFK. The controllers are often flat out rude to them.


Indeed it is, that's something that I feel is not emphasized enough in flight training and that I wish I was prepared for the first time I flew into Central America. That said, I just could not figure out Spanish for the life of me, even over the course of over a decade flying down there. Europe is generally a lot easier for me given that my parents were European immigrants and I went to Europe as a personal trip quite a few times in my youth, so I'm able to pick up cues a lot easier than before. Personally, I feel that either everyone should speak English, or whatever language the ICAO wishes, as long as everyone speaks it, or have us all actually learn a few languages that are fairly common, that way we can better understand what's going on, because, yeah it's doable, but it's not exactly great, is it? Also, yeah, the controllers at Kennedy can be pretty terrible, an old friend of mine who works at Swiss and recently transferred to the 777 from the A330/A340 repeatedly tells me how much he loves that he doesn't have to fly to JFK anymore, and frankly they're not the most pleasant to work with even if you're local.


I have put myself in the shoes of foreign pilots to the extent I have worked diligently to learn basic phrases and numbers in the languages of many airlines we serve...

That said, English is a required proficiency if you’re flying anywhere in the US.

Not that I want to completely defend the other comment about JFK controllers being salty, some are. But let’s face it, when you’re flying in the most complex and busiest airspace in the world, I quite frankly don’t give a damn what color the seats of your plane are, whether your dog in the back is hypoallergenic, or if you’re trying to land before IKEA closes (all things I have heard on a busy, congested frequency).

Don’t get me wrong, I started out as a pilot and probably said some stupid things myself but when your controller is running 30+ airplanes and a million miles an hour at the mouth, PLEASE don’t ‘expect’ courtesies when you give me 3 minutes of completely useless information when in that time I could have issued 40 clearances. THAT is what I see as a big issue with NYC controllers being salty.

I don’t work NYC but we have our times where we are just as busy and I’ll be damned if I don’t take 10 seconds out of my busy schedule to be an a**hole to you if I’m dealing with weather deviations, single gate ops to one of the top 5 busiest airports in the country while sequencing for 9 different airports and you feel the need to tie up my frequency for 45 seconds to tell me about your light chop.
By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
 
Bingo1
Posts: 206
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:59 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
tu204 wrote:
I've had times when flying GA in Quebec and was told a few times to speak French...

I'm very surprised to hear that.

It's more like the other way around. The minute we hear english comms (GA or not) in proximity, everyone switches to english. It would be very stupid to demand french comms to non-francophones. And we all want this guy to know where we are.

You hear english comms most often around Montréal.

I find your comment rather suspect considering how far it is from reality...


Welcome to rural Quebec. Montreal has learnt that tourists help pay bills so has become less hostile to those that don't speak French. To understand that hostility to non-francophones in parts of Quebec one should live there. You'll experience going to businesses with cash in your hand and being refused because you don't speak French.

Someone will likely know the details of this better than I but I believe the air traffic controllers in rural/domestic airports spoke English before the rural Quebec controllers did. Furthermore this caused a stir in Quebec and the Quebecois accused the French of being "traitors".
Planecrzy
 
Armodeen
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:09 pm

And yet LHR ATC manages to be polite, courteous and professional the vast vast majority of the time? Being busy is in no way an excuse for being rude etc.

ATCtower wrote:
triple3driver wrote:
DDR wrote:

Sometimes I feel really sorry for the foreign pilots flying in to JFK. The controllers are often flat out rude to them.


Indeed it is, that's something that I feel is not emphasized enough in flight training and that I wish I was prepared for the first time I flew into Central America. That said, I just could not figure out Spanish for the life of me, even over the course of over a decade flying down there. Europe is generally a lot easier for me given that my parents were European immigrants and I went to Europe as a personal trip quite a few times in my youth, so I'm able to pick up cues a lot easier than before. Personally, I feel that either everyone should speak English, or whatever language the ICAO wishes, as long as everyone speaks it, or have us all actually learn a few languages that are fairly common, that way we can better understand what's going on, because, yeah it's doable, but it's not exactly great, is it? Also, yeah, the controllers at Kennedy can be pretty terrible, an old friend of mine who works at Swiss and recently transferred to the 777 from the A330/A340 repeatedly tells me how much he loves that he doesn't have to fly to JFK anymore, and frankly they're not the most pleasant to work with even if you're local.


I have put myself in the shoes of foreign pilots to the extent I have worked diligently to learn basic phrases and numbers in the languages of many airlines we serve...

That said, English is a required proficiency if you’re flying anywhere in the US.

Not that I want to completely defend the other comment about JFK controllers being salty, some are. But let’s face it, when you’re flying in the most complex and busiest airspace in the world, I quite frankly don’t give a damn what color the seats of your plane are, whether your dog in the back is hypoallergenic, or if you’re trying to land before IKEA closes (all things I have heard on a busy, congested frequency).

Don’t get me wrong, I started out as a pilot and probably said some stupid things myself but when your controller is running 30+ airplanes and a million miles an hour at the mouth, PLEASE don’t ‘expect’ courtesies when you give me 3 minutes of completely useless information when in that time I could have issued 40 clearances. THAT is what I see as a big issue with NYC controllers being salty.

I don’t work NYC but we have our times where we are just as busy and I’ll be damned if I don’t take 10 seconds out of my busy schedule to be an a**hole to you if I’m dealing with weather deviations, single gate ops to one of the top 5 busiest airports in the country while sequencing for 9 different airports and you feel the need to tie up my frequency for 45 seconds to tell me about your light chop.
 
33lspotter
Posts: 533
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after runway incursion

Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:57 pm

YoungDon wrote:
Yep, that's why the entire world uses the imperial measurement system right? That's why they all waited for us to ground the max before they took any action I presume?

The world doesn't revolve around anyone and it is dumb (and arrogant) for any group to think they're special.


I’m an American and I approve this message.
 
B1168
Posts: 491
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:13 am

I admit, Austral, Air Austral and Austrian are sooooo easy to mix between. My first thought when I saw that YouTube video is that “did Air Austral just start flying regional in Argentina”?
 
BA777FO
Posts: 297
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:43 am

Armodeen wrote:
And yet LHR ATC manages to be polite, courteous and professional the vast vast majority of the time? Being busy is in no way an excuse for being rude etc.

ATCtower wrote:
triple3driver wrote:

Indeed it is, that's something that I feel is not emphasized enough in flight training and that I wish I was prepared for the first time I flew into Central America. That said, I just could not figure out Spanish for the life of me, even over the course of over a decade flying down there. Europe is generally a lot easier for me given that my parents were European immigrants and I went to Europe as a personal trip quite a few times in my youth, so I'm able to pick up cues a lot easier than before. Personally, I feel that either everyone should speak English, or whatever language the ICAO wishes, as long as everyone speaks it, or have us all actually learn a few languages that are fairly common, that way we can better understand what's going on, because, yeah it's doable, but it's not exactly great, is it? Also, yeah, the controllers at Kennedy can be pretty terrible, an old friend of mine who works at Swiss and recently transferred to the 777 from the A330/A340 repeatedly tells me how much he loves that he doesn't have to fly to JFK anymore, and frankly they're not the most pleasant to work with even if you're local.


I have put myself in the shoes of foreign pilots to the extent I have worked diligently to learn basic phrases and numbers in the languages of many airlines we serve...

That said, English is a required proficiency if you’re flying anywhere in the US.

Not that I want to completely defend the other comment about JFK controllers being salty, some are. But let’s face it, when you’re flying in the most complex and busiest airspace in the world, I quite frankly don’t give a damn what color the seats of your plane are, whether your dog in the back is hypoallergenic, or if you’re trying to land before IKEA closes (all things I have heard on a busy, congested frequency).

Don’t get me wrong, I started out as a pilot and probably said some stupid things myself but when your controller is running 30+ airplanes and a million miles an hour at the mouth, PLEASE don’t ‘expect’ courtesies when you give me 3 minutes of completely useless information when in that time I could have issued 40 clearances. THAT is what I see as a big issue with NYC controllers being salty.

I don’t work NYC but we have our times where we are just as busy and I’ll be damned if I don’t take 10 seconds out of my busy schedule to be an a**hole to you if I’m dealing with weather deviations, single gate ops to one of the top 5 busiest airports in the country while sequencing for 9 different airports and you feel the need to tie up my frequency for 45 seconds to tell me about your light chop.


:yes: London ATC, and especially the controllers at LHR and LGW, are simply the best anywhere in the world. A lot of places could learn a great deal from them.
 
BenTheGreat97
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:39 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
tu204 wrote:
I've had times when flying GA in Quebec and was told a few times to speak French...

I'm very surprised to hear that.

It's more like the other way around. The minute we hear english comms (GA or not) in proximity, everyone switches to english. It would be very stupid to demand french comms to non-francophones. And we all want this guy to know where we are.

You hear english comms most often around Montréal.

I find your comment rather suspect considering how far it is from reality...



Unfortunately it's not far from reality. I've flown GA mostly in the Ottawa area for the past 3 and a half years, and done cross country flights through southern Quebec too. I have heard stories from friends about french airport radio operators (at smaller airports, like Trois-Rivieres specifically) ask for the pilot to speak to them in French instead of English.

When flying through our uncontrolled practice area (which is split between Ontario and Quebec along the Ottawa River), we would hear French radio calls usually several times daily. My club's policy was and still is to immediately request for them to repeat their call in English, and guess what, 95% of the time, they would never reply. And you knew they heard you, because most of the time they would make another position report (in French, no less) 15 minutes later. I speak French but most there don't. It was and still is a huge safety concern.
 
dcajet
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:05 am

B1168 wrote:
I admit, Austral, Air Austral and Austrian are sooooo easy to mix between. My first thought when I saw that YouTube video is that “did Air Austral just start flying regional in Argentina”?


Except that Austral Lineas Aereas (call sign Austral) is a 62 year old business that has flown domestically and within South America since 1957. Air Austral does not fly to South America and neither does Austrian, other than summer charters to Argentina this past southern summer. No chances of confusion, and even then, the confusion would still be there in any language the controllers would use.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
Etheereal
Posts: 308
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:44 am

Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:42 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Blerg wrote:
What exactly did she mean whens he told him to come and tell it to her face? What? She was going to punch him or whatever? She should be suspended for such lack of professionalism.


I think it is a translation issue, she might have meant he could have complained privately rather than calling her incompetent on open frequency.


She also acknowledged the spacing issue and explained her reasons. She even said please.


Was there a blocked out word before she called him an idiot?

Also Spanish is vocally such a soothing language, non-Spanish speakers would never think they were insulting each other.

Your argument goes down as soon as she calls him an Idiot.
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
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Jouhou
Posts: 1938
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Insults between controller and pilot after runway incursion

Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:21 am

DABYT wrote:
aeropix wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
"CDTMYLPQTRMP"


Could I kindly ask someone "In the know" what this means? Sorry I'm not up on the latest lingo, but I would like to know this "inside joke" nonetheless. I bet I'm not the only one...


Well, there we go: La Concha De Tu Madre Y La Puta Que Te Re Mil Parió
It’s not the finest language so I’ll leave you and google translator alone with that.... :lol:


For the record Google translate doesn't work on this. I'm guessing since la concha translates to "shell" it is slang for lady parts and Google just sort of gives up on the "te re mil Parió" part. I'll guess it's something like "the [private parts] of your mother and the [prostitute] that gave birth to you"
 
art
Posts: 2860
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Insults between controller and pilot after runway incursion

Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:34 am

B777LRF wrote:
ATCtower wrote:
NearMiss wrote:
On that note, I’ll be the dumb requisite American who thinks the world revolves around us but I was under the presumption all ATC chatter was supposed to be in English worldwide. Is that not correct?


Even in CDG, ATC will communicate in French to local airlines and English to all the others. That's incredibly confusing and will contribute to losing situational awareness. There was an accident in CDG once, where a contributing factor was usage of two languages and a recommendation to cease that practice. Not surprisingly, the French stuck their middle finger up at that recommendation.


Accident report summary:

Shorts 330 G-SSWN was operating on a mail flight (Streamline 200) to Luton. The crew were cleared to depart cargo stand N51 and proceed to runway 27 at 02:38. Around the same time Air Liberté Flight 8807 (an MD-83, F-GHED) also taxied to runway 27 for a flight to Madrid. At 02:44 the Charles de Gaulle ground controller asked Streamline 200 if they wished to enter runway 27 at an intermediate taxiway; the crew asked for and were granted to enter Taxiway 16. At 02:50:49 the tower controller cleared the MD-83 for takeoff: "Liberté 8807, autorisé au décollage 27, 230°, 10 à 15 kts.". The controller then immediately told the Shorts to line up and wait: "Stream Line two hundred line up runway 27 and wait, number two". As the MD-83 was travelling down the runway, the Shorts started to taxi onto the runway. At a speed of about 155 knots the left wing of MD-83 slashed through the cockpit of the Shorts plane; the MD-83 abandoned takeoff.


Source: https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20000525-0

I agree that it compromises safety to use more than 1 ATC language at international airports. In the instance above it possibly prevented the avoidable being avoided by denying the Shorts pilot the opportunity of knowing what instruction the MD-83 pilot had received.
 
tu204
Posts: 1848
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:12 pm

Bingo1 wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
tu204 wrote:
I've had times when flying GA in Quebec and was told a few times to speak French...

I'm very surprised to hear that.

It's more like the other way around. The minute we hear english comms (GA or not) in proximity, everyone switches to english. It would be very stupid to demand french comms to non-francophones. And we all want this guy to know where we are.

You hear english comms most often around Montréal.

I find your comment rather suspect considering how far it is from reality...


Welcome to rural Quebec. Montreal has learnt that tourists help pay bills so has become less hostile to those that don't speak French. To understand that hostility to non-francophones in parts of Quebec one should live there. You'll experience going to businesses with cash in your hand and being refused because you don't speak French.

Someone will likely know the details of this better than I but I believe the air traffic controllers in rural/domestic airports spoke English before the rural Quebec controllers did. Furthermore this caused a stir in Quebec and the Quebecois accused the French of being "traitors".


My particular scenario where I was told to speak f*cking French was at Victoriaville, QC about 6-7 years back.

But I did some GA flights with buddies just for the hell of it along the Gulf of St.Lawrence out East and let me tell you, it was 50/50 to get a Unicom operator to actually speak any English on the North side of the Bay anywhere East of Quebec City...or on 126.7 (if I remember thr common trafic frequency correctly...)

As far as hostility towards non francophone speaks goes, I second that. Fun story - my wife and I were driving in Quebec and I stopped to ask for directions at a gas station, the girl at the counter pretended she did not speak English. Then for kicks I aksed my wife to try. She got directions :)
The difference - I don't have an accent when speaking English, my wife clearly has one.
Since that time if I find myself in Quebec I fake a heavy Russian accent and most of the time people are much more helpful and friendly.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1357
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:28 pm

"ATCtower A little dramatic don’t you think? Just imagine the things we say when the mic isn’t keyed."

I mean I get what you’re saying, but I still don't feel like I was being over dramatic. I am a controller at a level 12 facility in the U.S. I personally cannot imagine almost putting two airplanes together then not giving two shits about it. Lets even say for arguments sake that it was pilot error....someone blew through their altitude. In no stretch of the imagination could I see a controller replying in any other way than to do their best to keep the airplanes apart, then maybe find out what happened and keep the sector under control and professional. But to screw up, then call the pilots names on the freq and not care what just happened? That's crazy IMO. I'd want her off the boards immediately, give her a damn desk job somewhere else in the facility.
Last edited by trnswrld on Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2077
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Insults between controller and pilot after runway incursion

Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:29 pm

Jouhou wrote:
DABYT wrote:
aeropix wrote:

Could I kindly ask someone "In the know" what this means? Sorry I'm not up on the latest lingo, but I would like to know this "inside joke" nonetheless. I bet I'm not the only one...


Well, there we go: La Concha De Tu Madre Y La Puta Que Te Re Mil Parió
It’s not the finest language so I’ll leave you and google translator alone with that.... :lol:


For the record Google translate doesn't work on this. I'm guessing since la concha translates to "shell" it is slang for lady parts and Google just sort of gives up on the "te re mil Parió" part. I'll guess it's something like "the [private parts] of your mother and the [prostitute] that gave birth to you"

Your guesses are correct. :) Maybe "that gave f*cking birth to you" is an even more accurate approximation...
 
triple3driver
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:24 pm

Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:43 pm

tu204 wrote:
Bingo1 wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
I'm very surprised to hear that.

It's more like the other way around. The minute we hear english comms (GA or not) in proximity, everyone switches to english. It would be very stupid to demand french comms to non-francophones. And we all want this guy to know where we are.

You hear english comms most often around Montréal.

I find your comment rather suspect considering how far it is from reality...


Welcome to rural Quebec. Montreal has learnt that tourists help pay bills so has become less hostile to those that don't speak French. To understand that hostility to non-francophones in parts of Quebec one should live there. You'll experience going to businesses with cash in your hand and being refused because you don't speak French.

Someone will likely know the details of this better than I but I believe the air traffic controllers in rural/domestic airports spoke English before the rural Quebec controllers did. Furthermore this caused a stir in Quebec and the Quebecois accused the French of being "traitors".


My particular scenario where I was told to speak f*cking French was at Victoriaville, QC about 6-7 years back.

But I did some GA flights with buddies just for the hell of it along the Gulf of St.Lawrence out East and let me tell you, it was 50/50 to get a Unicom operator to actually speak any English on the North side of the Bay anywhere East of Quebec City...or on 126.7 (if I remember thr common trafic frequency correctly...)

As far as hostility towards non francophone speaks goes, I second that. Fun story - my wife and I were driving in Quebec and I stopped to ask for directions at a gas station, the girl at the counter pretended she did not speak English. Then for kicks I aksed my wife to try. She got directions :)
The difference - I don't have an accent when speaking English, my wife clearly has one.
Since that time if I find myself in Quebec I fake a heavy Russian accent and most of the time people are much more helpful and friendly.


I remember, this was back in '91, I think, I was doing my cross country solo and i flew into Canada(I lived in Northern New York at the time, so it wasn't a large distance) and I was told on the Unicom to, "speak French or f*ck off back to where I came from." Quite lucky that I decided to take French in school, eh? :D
I have no special talents, just a passion for flying
 
B1168
Posts: 491
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:54 pm

dcajet wrote:
B1168 wrote:
I admit, Austral, Air Austral and Austrian are sooooo easy to mix between. My first thought when I saw that YouTube video is that “did Air Austral just start flying regional in Argentina”?


Except that Austral Lineas Aereas (call sign Austral) is a 62 year old business that has flown domestically and within South America since 1957. Air Austral does not fly to South America and neither does Austrian, other than summer charters to Argentina this past southern summer. No chances of confusion, and even then, the confusion would still be there in any language the controllers would use.


I get it or course... But similar in name they are. It’s like distinguishing “Air China Cargo” and “China Airlines Cargo” and “China Cargo Airlines”, just messy in names.
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 523
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:58 pm

To "triple3driver"

Those stories amaze me.

I fly about every 2nd weekend and never heard / withnessed such stories.

I'm based in Beloeil and fly along the St-Laurence River to Québec City, Trois Rivières, or to Val d'Or, Sherbrooke, Gatineau etc. (Also once a year I bring a friend's plane to Florida and back - but thats irrelevant).

Again, when we hear english (and if we're not far away); we all switch to english PERIOD. Once everyone knows where each other is located/going to, then I agree some switches back to french.

Mexico in general uses this EXACT same logic for spanish/english (Flew there two years ago)

Again, I find those comments highly suspect.

PS:
#1 Another situation; at St-hubert (134.15) the tower will use the language you initiated first and sticked to it untill landing.

#2 If I ever hear someone telling others to f*cking switch to french - I'll report him to Transport Canada. But again, I never heard of such idiots - except on anonymous forums
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 523
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:00 pm

BenTheGreat97 wrote:
My club's policy was and still is to immediately request for them to repeat their call in English, and guess what, 95% of the time, they would never reply. And you knew they heard you, because most of the time they would make another position report (in French, no less) 15 minutes later. I speak French but most there don't. It was and still is a huge safety concern.

If a particular pilot knows you are outside/away from any possible conflicts, he might indeed not bother.

I personnaly do always answer to avoid any undue anxieties for this visiting pilot...
 
ATCtower
Posts: 492
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:47 pm

trnswrld wrote:
"

I mean I get what you’re saying, but I still don't feel like I was being over dramatic. I am a controller at a level 12 facility in the U.S. I personally cannot imagine almost putting two airplanes together then not giving two shits about it. Lets even say for arguments sake that it was pilot error....someone blew through their altitude. In no stretch of the imagination could I see a controller replying in any other way than to do their best to keep the airplanes apart, then maybe find out what happened and keep the sector under control and professional. But to screw up, then call the pilots names on the freq and not care what just happened? That's crazy IMO. I'd want her off the boards immediately, give her a damn desk job somewhere else in the facility.


My apologies, I made the incorrect assumption you would be a pilot based on your comment.

I too work a high level facility in the US and we hear tacky things maybe more commonly than other places.

I guess it’s just second nature to immediately try to defend a fellow controller. We don’t know whose screw up it was but if I saw two that close from a pilot deviation I don’t know that I could bite my tongue either. I probably wouldn’t call him an idiot on the freq but there’s a damn good chance I would try to make him feel like one followed with an immediate brasher warning. Seeing planes that close definitely shakes most good controllers.
By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
 
tu204
Posts: 1848
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:04 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
To "triple3driver"

Those stories amaze me.

I fly about every 2nd weekend and never heard / withnessed such stories.

I'm based in Beloeil and fly along the St-Laurence River to Québec City, Trois Rivières, or to Val d'Or, Sherbrooke, Gatineau etc. (Also once a year I bring a friend's plane to Florida and back - but thats irrelevant).

Again, when we hear english (and if we're not far away); we all switch to english PERIOD. Once everyone knows where each other is located/going to, then I agree some switches back to french.

Mexico in general uses this EXACT same logic for spanish/english (Flew there two years ago)

Again, I find those comments highly suspect.

PS:
#1 Another situation; at St-hubert (134.15) the tower will use the language you initiated first and sticked to it untill landing.

#2 If I ever hear someone telling others to f*cking switch to french - I'll report him to Transport Canada. But again, I never heard of such idiots - except on anonymous forums


Hey, that's how it should be and thats how I hope it will be. Because after my unpleasant run-ins with chatter on frequency in Quebec, well let's just say that safety is all of ours business and showing off one's nationalism when you are coming down in a flaming wreck since said person didn't wanna speak English is counter productive to say the least.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against Québécois and had a great time flying GA with buddies in Eastern Québec and the Gaspe. Many of those guys on Unicom that did not speak English did so because they really didn't know English. But on the ground were really helpful and pleasant, albeit we did have to communicate using hand gestures.

I completely agree that using the same language as everyone on frequency is great for situational awareness. However if English is your 2nd or 3rd language and 95% of the other traffic speaks the different (native to the location) language, it is probably safer to use your native language.

Hell there have been times when I've flown in Africa and switched to Russian when speaking with other aircraft (Usually Armenian or Ukranian regs, a couple times with UTAir UN charters) since they had trouble communicating what the hell was going on and it was way easier to switch to Russian. They knew the standard terminology, but when we were talking about some shit weather ahead and comparing our information to figure out where it was, how to deviate and not kill each other in the process, it is like I started talking Chinese to them and they were replying in Farsi - total breakdown untill we swtiched to a common language.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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longhauler
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:58 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Again, I find those comments highly suspect.


I tend to agree and they are always "25 years ago".

Today, with everything recorded, I don't think anyone would risk it. When French was first allowed in Canadian ATC, things were pretty careful. It was always my opinion that they felt if it didn't work well, they might lose the privilege to speak French in ATC.

I say, "in ATC" as there are some levels of communication, Unicom for example, where if I am not mistaken, either language is not guaranteed. Likely because techinically, one doesn't even need a radio!

I do remember, "about 20 years ago", flying a 737 freighter into Labrador. On the way, I called Flight Service for updated weather. The gentleman answered in very broken English that he could not speak English well. Luckily, I speak French so it was not an issue. But, it makes me think that scenario is more likely. Namely, it's not that he won't speak English ... maybe he can't.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Planetalk
Posts: 391
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:04 pm

triple3driver wrote:
ChrisEtihad272 wrote:
it was my understanding that all Air traffic control and aircraft pilots are supposed to speak in english to stop any incidents language related.

if that is not the law then it should be!


That's the way it should be, but in practice it's not. When I flew the 737, one of the worst aspects of flying to Latin America was the fact that more often than not the ATC would speak Spanish rather than English, which is obviously confusing if you're not local, like if you're American, which a lot of us going down there are. Let's just say, it was nerve-racking going down there, it's absolutely terrible. Even now, there have been a few occasions in the short time that I've been flying the A330 where the controllers would speak in their native language and it can hamper situational awareness drastically, although it hasn't occurred nearly to the extent that I've seen in the Caribbean and Latin America.


But it wasn't nerve wracking enough you ever thought about learning some Spanish? if I thought my life might depend on it one day I'd give it some thought.

They're not going to change (rightly or wrongly). You can. I'm sure all those people speaking Spanish do actually speak good English since they're pilots, and notwithstanding the requirement of their job to speak English, in my experience in Latin countries anyone well enough educated to be a pilot will speak good English. It's very reflective of class in this part of the world. if they can do it why can't we? Speaking another language is one of the most wonderful skills you can ever learn. If my job regularly took me to a part of the world where speaking another language directly impacted my ability to do my job, I'd probably consider taking some lessons.

As an English native it really is embarrassing how poor we are at this.
 
Planetalk
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:09 pm

ATCtower wrote:
triple3driver wrote:
DDR wrote:

Sometimes I feel really sorry for the foreign pilots flying in to JFK. The controllers are often flat out rude to them.


Indeed it is, that's something that I feel is not emphasized enough in flight training and that I wish I was prepared for the first time I flew into Central America. That said, I just could not figure out Spanish for the life of me, even over the course of over a decade flying down there. Europe is generally a lot easier for me given that my parents were European immigrants and I went to Europe as a personal trip quite a few times in my youth, so I'm able to pick up cues a lot easier than before. Personally, I feel that either everyone should speak English, or whatever language the ICAO wishes, as long as everyone speaks it, or have us all actually learn a few languages that are fairly common, that way we can better understand what's going on, because, yeah it's doable, but it's not exactly great, is it? Also, yeah, the controllers at Kennedy can be pretty terrible, an old friend of mine who works at Swiss and recently transferred to the 777 from the A330/A340 repeatedly tells me how much he loves that he doesn't have to fly to JFK anymore, and frankly they're not the most pleasant to work with even if you're local.


I have put myself in the shoes of foreign pilots to the extent I have worked diligently to learn basic phrases and numbers in the languages of many airlines we serve...

That said, English is a required proficiency if you’re flying anywhere in the US.

Not that I want to completely defend the other comment about JFK controllers being salty, some are. But let’s face it, when you’re flying in the most complex and busiest airspace in the world, I quite frankly don’t give a damn what color the seats of your plane are, whether your dog in the back is hypoallergenic, or if you’re trying to land before IKEA closes (all things I have heard on a busy, congested frequency).

Don’t get me wrong, I started out as a pilot and probably said some stupid things myself but when your controller is running 30+ airplanes and a million miles an hour at the mouth, PLEASE don’t ‘expect’ courtesies when you give me 3 minutes of completely useless information when in that time I could have issued 40 clearances. THAT is what I see as a big issue with NYC controllers being salty.

I don’t work NYC but we have our times where we are just as busy and I’ll be damned if I don’t take 10 seconds out of my busy schedule to be an a**hole to you if I’m dealing with weather deviations, single gate ops to one of the top 5 busiest airports in the country while sequencing for 9 different airports and you feel the need to tie up my frequency for 45 seconds to tell me about your light chop.


So how do other controllers in busy parts of the world manage without being as**holes? The irony is that the controllers often waste more time ripping the pilots a new one over something completely innocuous than the pilot ever did. It's an ego trip, nothing more.
 
mysfit
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:18 pm

I thought all communication needing to be in English was a finding after tenerife.
 
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Gonzalo
Topic Author
Posts: 1821
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:07 am

trnswrld wrote:
"ATCtower A little dramatic don’t you think? Just imagine the things we say when the mic isn’t keyed."

I mean I get what you’re saying, but I still don't feel like I was being over dramatic. I am a controller at a level 12 facility in the U.S. I personally cannot imagine almost putting two airplanes together then not giving two shits about it. Lets even say for arguments sake that it was pilot error....someone blew through their altitude. In no stretch of the imagination could I see a controller replying in any other way than to do their best to keep the airplanes apart, then maybe find out what happened and keep the sector under control and professional. But to screw up, then call the pilots names on the freq and not care what just happened? That's crazy IMO. I'd want her off the boards immediately, give her a damn desk job somewhere else in the facility.


I agree 100 per cent with you. A person with this level of childish responses doing this job is dangerous ( “come to say that in my face idiot !! “ looks more like a teen in the school than a professional controller in a big airport ).
Sadly some members here, like dcajet ( one member that I respect a lot since he is a great contributor to the forum ) thinks that this view is because I have some kind of anti Argentina bias. Not true. If this same incident happens tomorrow in Chile and nothing happens to the controller, I will be terrified in my next flight inside Chile. Fact is, in the aeronautical sector, the Argentinian airspace is considered sub standard for many many people working in the skies, like it or not, and this woman insulting pilots after a near miss in her sector is a clear example of why.

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
dcajet
Posts: 3849
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Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:03 am

Gonzalo wrote:
trnswrld wrote:
"ATCtower A little dramatic don’t you think? Just imagine the things we say when the mic isn’t keyed."

I mean I get what you’re saying, but I still don't feel like I was being over dramatic. I am a controller at a level 12 facility in the U.S. I personally cannot imagine almost putting two airplanes together then not giving two shits about it. Lets even say for arguments sake that it was pilot error....someone blew through their altitude. In no stretch of the imagination could I see a controller replying in any other way than to do their best to keep the airplanes apart, then maybe find out what happened and keep the sector under control and professional. But to screw up, then call the pilots names on the freq and not care what just happened? That's crazy IMO. I'd want her off the boards immediately, give her a damn desk job somewhere else in the facility.


I agree 100 per cent with you. A person with this level of childish responses doing this job is dangerous ( “come to say that in my face idiot !! “ looks more like a teen in the school than a professional controller in a big airport ).
Sadly some members here, like dcajet ( one member that I respect a lot since he is a great contributor to the forum ) thinks that this view is because I have some kind of anti Argentina bias. Not true. If this same incident happens tomorrow in Chile and nothing happens to the controller, I will be terrified in my next flight inside Chile. Fact is, in the aeronautical sector, the Argentinian airspace is considered sub standard for many many people working in the skies, like it or not, and this woman insulting pilots after a near miss in her sector is a clear example of why.

Rgds.
G.


G, not to be a pest, but can you share with us proof of your statement that the Argentina airspace is considered sub standard and by whom. Fact, not opinions.

And, how do you know nothing has happened to the controller? You are wrong there.

Saludos,
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
triple3driver
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:24 pm

Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:08 pm

dcajet wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
trnswrld wrote:
"ATCtower A little dramatic don’t you think? Just imagine the things we say when the mic isn’t keyed."

I mean I get what you’re saying, but I still don't feel like I was being over dramatic. I am a controller at a level 12 facility in the U.S. I personally cannot imagine almost putting two airplanes together then not giving two shits about it. Lets even say for arguments sake that it was pilot error....someone blew through their altitude. In no stretch of the imagination could I see a controller replying in any other way than to do their best to keep the airplanes apart, then maybe find out what happened and keep the sector under control and professional. But to screw up, then call the pilots names on the freq and not care what just happened? That's crazy IMO. I'd want her off the boards immediately, give her a damn desk job somewhere else in the facility.


I agree 100 per cent with you. A person with this level of childish responses doing this job is dangerous ( “come to say that in my face idiot !! “ looks more like a teen in the school than a professional controller in a big airport ).
Sadly some members here, like dcajet ( one member that I respect a lot since he is a great contributor to the forum ) thinks that this view is because I have some kind of anti Argentina bias. Not true. If this same incident happens tomorrow in Chile and nothing happens to the controller, I will be terrified in my next flight inside Chile. Fact is, in the aeronautical sector, the Argentinian airspace is considered sub standard for many many people working in the skies, like it or not, and this woman insulting pilots after a near miss in her sector is a clear example of why.

Rgds.
G.


G, not to be a pest, but can you share with us proof of your statement that the Argentina airspace is considered sub standard and by whom. Fact, not opinions.

And, how do you know nothing has happened to the controller? You are wrong there.

Saludos,


While I haven't been down there personally, several A330 pilots who do fly down to Buenos Aires often do consider it to be sub-par compared to American or European airspace. Since we don't have any flights there from where I operate, I can't speak personally about it, but that's what they say, and many of them have more experience and seniority then I do flying long haul routes.
I have no special talents, just a passion for flying
 
dcajet
Posts: 3849
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:41 pm

triple3driver wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:

I agree 100 per cent with you. A person with this level of childish responses doing this job is dangerous ( “come to say that in my face idiot !! “ looks more like a teen in the school than a professional controller in a big airport ).
Sadly some members here, like dcajet ( one member that I respect a lot since he is a great contributor to the forum ) thinks that this view is because I have some kind of anti Argentina bias. Not true. If this same incident happens tomorrow in Chile and nothing happens to the controller, I will be terrified in my next flight inside Chile. Fact is, in the aeronautical sector, the Argentinian airspace is considered sub standard for many many people working in the skies, like it or not, and this woman insulting pilots after a near miss in her sector is a clear example of why.

Rgds.
G.


G, not to be a pest, but can you share with us proof of your statement that the Argentina airspace is considered sub standard and by whom. Fact, not opinions.

And, how do you know nothing has happened to the controller? You are wrong there.

Saludos,


While I haven't been down there personally, several A330 pilots who do fly down to Buenos Aires often do consider it to be sub-par compared to American or European airspace. Since we don't have any flights there from where I operate, I can't speak personally about it, but that's what they say, and many of them have more experience and seniority then I do flying long haul routes.


Again, personal opinions. Not saying there is not some truth to them, but if one is going to say that x airspace is xyz, I think that we need to have some factual evidence. Otherwise, it is a personal opinion or hearsay, from the proverbial armchair director of safety and human factors.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
dcajet
Posts: 3849
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:00 pm

Just another day at EZE with this approach and landing video of an AF 777. Notice 3 languages being spoken or heard: French in the cockpit, English with the controllers (AF, BA and DI) and Spanish with an AR plane holding short of the runway. Video by AF Copilot Guillaume Laffon, who coordinated with EZE spotters for this video's filming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEmjALKDV5s
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
triple3driver
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:24 pm

Re: Insults between controller and pilot after near miss

Tue May 28, 2019 3:03 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
To "triple3driver"

Those stories amaze me.

I fly about every 2nd weekend and never heard / withnessed such stories.

I'm based in Beloeil and fly along the St-Laurence River to Québec City, Trois Rivières, or to Val d'Or, Sherbrooke, Gatineau etc. (Also once a year I bring a friend's plane to Florida and back - but thats irrelevant).

Again, when we hear english (and if we're not far away); we all switch to english PERIOD. Once everyone knows where each other is located/going to, then I agree some switches back to french.

Mexico in general uses this EXACT same logic for spanish/english (Flew there two years ago)

Again, I find those comments highly suspect.

PS:
#1 Another situation; at St-hubert (134.15) the tower will use the language you initiated first and sticked to it untill landing.

#2 If I ever hear someone telling others to f*cking switch to french - I'll report him to Transport Canada. But again, I never heard of such idiots - except on anonymous forums

I'll be honest, in all my years of commercial flying, I've never heard anything else like that ever, in fact when we overfly Canada, they're some of the most professional controllers in the entire world, so either he was a bad egg who should have never been let on the frequency or Canadians have changed a lot since the early 90s. But to be frank, generally I dint feel it's worth to report these people or to give them much attention. I mean, when you're flying a commercial jet with nearly 300 souls onboard its one thing, but in situations like these, with private pilots, sometimes the situation gets a little unprofessional in the radio, hell I'd be surprised if you hadn't experienced anything similar to it. I haven't experienced anything to that extent ever again, but there have been a few occurrences where pilots got disgruntled on the traffic frequency.
I have no special talents, just a passion for flying

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