n2dru
Posts: 130
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Re: United MCO hub?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:47 am

Jaxman16 wrote:
Keep in mind, especially in the state of Florida and Southeast US, UA has the smallest presence of the US3's.. Thats an uphill battle right there...Florida especially is DL and AA country along with every LCC. They would have to invest heavily in MCO over years to make it work. My 2 cents.


Agreed, outside of major metro areas United is barely present or known in most Southeastern US markets. Delta and American are the dominant carriers in this part of the country with the LCCs taking up the slack at major cities and tourist driven locales. Sorry Houston is too far west and IAD is too far north to effectively serve this part of the country.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: United MCO hub?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:16 am

I'm guessing a certain poster who either posted here or is at least reading this thread must be the "infamous" banned 'Leon103102' on Wikipedia. Orlando was added pretty quickly in UA's history page on Wikipedia before it got wiped.

Saying that though, Wikipedia isn't exactly a reliable source of information either considering the earlier thread of the edit war of Airline destinations between posters on there and the posters/readers on this forum.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 306
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Re: United MCO hub?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:19 pm

ual763 wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
ual763 wrote:

Not to sound rude towards the islanders, but I don’t think United, JetBlue, or anyone else cares about the local traffic from the islands. The money-maker is in the countless hoards of Americans, from around the country, taking their holidays down in the Caribbean. The Caribbean market is exploding as more islands are now becoming more tourist friendly and cheaper. There are more tourists at any one time on the islands than islanders themselves.

AA for one has actually done quite well for itself by marketing to the local traffic originating from the islands.There's also the matter of local traffic TO the islands which is the larger piece of the pie but which Orlando doesn't have as much of as other hubs. Passengers outside Orlando have the option of connecting via MIA, FLL, CLT, ATL and other hubs. MCO doesn't have the local traffic that MIA/FLL have nor does it have the huge FF bases of ATL/CLT. MCO would be more dependent on low yielding connecting traffic than any of those other hubs and would be bleeding money from all sides both on flights to/from the Caribbean and on domestic feed flights.


ATL/CLT/MIA have large FF bases because they have a dominant hometown airline. Build that in Orlando, and you’ll have a large local ff base here too. Orlando has a large metro area population. And they do travel. Not to mention, Tampa residents would gladly drive to Orlando for a direct flight to their favorite Caribbean island vs. having to connect in MIA. And also, there has recently been a large surge of ethnic Cubans & other islanders moving from Miami/SE Florida to Orlando, Tampa, etc. The demographics are changing. And they’re changing quickly.

Also opens up the possibility of countless Caribbean codeshares between Lufthansa and United to the Caribbean.[/quote

There are already "countless" codeshares between Lufthansa and United to the Caribbean in EWR and IAD.

Also, the Eastern Caribbean is a detour from MCO:

Image

MCO would make a great LATAM connector, like MIA, for Lufthansa/United Code shares...but the cost to build that hub up? MCO fares are dirt cheap in the USA. No yield. They might as well use FLL to build a hub.
 
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Jamake1
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Re: United MCO hub?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:34 pm

If United ever wanted to establish a southeast hub, I think CHS could be a possible location.
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blockski
Posts: 471
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Re: United MCO hub?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:47 pm

n2dru wrote:
Jaxman16 wrote:
Keep in mind, especially in the state of Florida and Southeast US, UA has the smallest presence of the US3's.. Thats an uphill battle right there...Florida especially is DL and AA country along with every LCC. They would have to invest heavily in MCO over years to make it work. My 2 cents.


Agreed, outside of major metro areas United is barely present or known in most Southeastern US markets. Delta and American are the dominant carriers in this part of the country with the LCCs taking up the slack at major cities and tourist driven locales. Sorry Houston is too far west and IAD is too far north to effectively serve this part of the country.


MCO won't effectively serve intra-SE travel, either, even if UA were to invest heavily in it. Just compare what's in the 500-mile radius of MCO compared to ATL or CLT. And for any traffic heading beyond the SE, UA would be better off trying to route that traffic via one of their existing hubs, depending on the final destination.

I suppose there's a more plausible case for MCO to serve as connecting hub for Caribbean and Latin American traffic, but that's still a huge lift and not at all likely to succeed.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1865
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Re: United MCO hub?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:48 pm

Jamake1 wrote:
If United ever wanted to establish a southeast hub, I think CHS could be a possible location.


lol
CHS is a tiny town bro.
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STT757
Posts: 13801
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Re: United MCO hub?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:13 pm

BNA, RDU, GSO or GSP before CHS.


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departedflights
Posts: 47
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Re: United MCO hub?

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:23 pm

For anyone interested, here is a rundown of United's Orlando flights effective July 1, 1992:

FROM ORLANDO

To Boston:
1:55pm (737)
6:50pm (737)

To Chicago Midway
8:50am (737)
2:05pm (737)
7:55pm (737)

To Chicago O'Hare
7:00am (737)
9:05am (757)
12:50pm (DC10)
7:10pm (737)

To Denver:
9:05am (737)
5:55pm (737)

To Fort Lauderdale:
11:05am (737)
3:40pm (737)
9:15pm (757)

To Fort Myers:
11:05am (737)
3:45pm (737)
9:15pm (737)

To Hartford/Springfield
1:55pm (737)

To Jacksonville:
9:20pm (737)

To Los Angeles:
9:00am (757)

To Mexico City:
11:10am (737)

To Miami:
11:05am (737)
3:45pm (737)
6:45pm (737)
9:15pm (737)

To Newark:
8:43am (737)
1:55pm (737)
6:45pm (737)

To New York LaGuardia
9:00am (737)
2:05pm (737)
6:58pm (737)

To San Francisco:
8:45am (757)

To Sarasota:
11:10am (737)
3:50pm (737)
9:25pm (737)

To Tampa:
9:30pm (757)

To Washington Dulles:
9:30am (737)
1:25pm (737)
3:28pm (737)
6:55pm (727)

To Washington National:
2:05pm (727)
6:56pm (737)

To West Palm Beach:
11:15am (737)
3:45pm (737)
9:15pm (737)

A total of 45 daily departures.
 
UA857
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Re: United MCO hub?

Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:30 am

SCFlyer wrote:
I'm guessing a certain poster who either posted here or is at least reading this thread must be the "infamous" banned 'Leon103102' on Wikipedia. Orlando was added pretty quickly in UA's history page on Wikipedia before it got wiped.

Saying that though, Wikipedia isn't exactly a reliable source of information either considering the earlier thread of the edit war of Airline destinations between posters on there and the posters/readers on this forum.


Then add it back on that page.
 
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STT757
Posts: 13801
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Re: United MCO hub?

Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:10 pm

departedflights wrote:
For anyone interested, here is a rundown of United's Orlando flights effective July 1, 1992:

FROM ORLANDO

To Boston:
1:55pm (737)
6:50pm (737)

To Chicago Midway
8:50am (737)
2:05pm (737)
7:55pm (737)

To Chicago O'Hare
7:00am (737)
9:05am (757)
12:50pm (DC10)
7:10pm (737)

To Denver:
9:05am (737)
5:55pm (737)

To Fort Lauderdale:
11:05am (737)
3:40pm (737)
9:15pm (757)

To Fort Myers:
11:05am (737)
3:45pm (737)
9:15pm (737)

To Hartford/Springfield
1:55pm (737)

To Jacksonville:
9:20pm (737)

To Los Angeles:
9:00am (757)

To Mexico City:
11:10am (737)

To Miami:
11:05am (737)
3:45pm (737)
6:45pm (737)
9:15pm (737)

To Newark:
8:43am (737)
1:55pm (737)
6:45pm (737)

To New York LaGuardia
9:00am (737)
2:05pm (737)
6:58pm (737)

To San Francisco:
8:45am (757)

To Sarasota:
11:10am (737)
3:50pm (737)
9:25pm (737)

To Tampa:
9:30pm (757)

To Washington Dulles:
9:30am (737)
1:25pm (737)
3:28pm (737)
6:55pm (727)

To Washington National:
2:05pm (727)
6:56pm (737)

To West Palm Beach:
11:15am (737)
3:45pm (737)
9:15pm (737)

A total of 45 daily departures.


Thanks for that, I vacationed in Orlando around this time and remember seeing a nice size UA presence. Back then there was no WN or any other LCCs at MCO except KIWI. UA, DL all had larger presence, I flew down on DL from EWR in the days before DL Express and SONG.Today it’s amazing how big WN, B6, F9 and NK are at MCO. I really think the airport still has a lot of growth in its future, and perhaps there is a place for a legacy like UA alongside the LCCs.

UA already has their maintenance base, perhaps the next step could be a pilot/ FA base which has long been rumored.


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crownvic
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Re: United MCO hub?

Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:40 pm

Oh the good ole days....I would have preferred to have flown between MIA and MCO on the no local traffic Aeroflot IL-62...
 
flight152
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Re: United MCO hub?

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:48 pm

n2dru wrote:
Jaxman16 wrote:
Keep in mind, especially in the state of Florida and Southeast US, UA has the smallest presence of the US3's.. Thats an uphill battle right there...Florida especially is DL and AA country along with every LCC. They would have to invest heavily in MCO over years to make it work. My 2 cents.


Agreed, outside of major metro areas United is barely present or known in most Southeastern US markets. Delta and American are the dominant carriers in this part of the country with the LCCs taking up the slack at major cities and tourist driven locales. Sorry Houston is too far west and IAD is too far north to effectively serve this part of the country.

Right, and Delta is virtually unknown in smaller markets in the Southwest.
 
n2dru
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Re: United MCO hub?

Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:26 pm

flight152 wrote:
n2dru wrote:
Jaxman16 wrote:
Keep in mind, especially in the state of Florida and Southeast US, UA has the smallest presence of the US3's.. Thats an uphill battle right there...Florida especially is DL and AA country along with every LCC. They would have to invest heavily in MCO over years to make it work. My 2 cents.


Agreed, outside of major metro areas United is barely present or known in most Southeastern US markets. Delta and American are the dominant carriers in this part of the country with the LCCs taking up the slack at major cities and tourist driven locales. Sorry Houston is too far west and IAD is too far north to effectively serve this part of the country.

Right, and Delta is virtually unknown in smaller markets in the Southwest.


Agreed, all of the US3 have areas of the country where they are weak.
 
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N717TW
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Re: United MCO hub?

Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:43 pm

UA picked up the gates from DL when DL moved into its new "hub" concourses. I think people here forget that intra-Florida flying was still "a thing" in the late 80s and early 90s with EA/AA, PA and DL all having intra-Florida networks. DL, through comair, had a fairly larger intra-FL network based at MCO.

I should note that UA was not a "nobody" in Florida or Southeast back in the 80s given that UA had a very large presence, admittedly mostly from the midwest, under the old regulated days to Florida and even had a mini-hub in Atlanta. Of the major trunk lines UA was behind only DL, EA and maybe PA (after NA mergers) plus US after it pulled PI into the fold; AA was the one with no presence or name rec in Florida. By 1990 a lot of that point-to-point flying had disappeared as UA gave up their positions in CLE, DTW, etc. to consolidate at ORD and IAD.

Building MCO was a clear attempt to build back on the FL strength but also to create clear lines that help build up UA's business in the "other end of the flight" markets given that Florida is a major destination from both the Northeast and Midwest which were major markets for UA. Remember that in the early 90s, the LCCs hadn't caught on but DL and US had significantly built themselves out and were now able to compete effectively for western and midwest traffic against UA. Likewise, UA's archival AA had become a legit airline to Florida after buying EA's assets. In the market of the early 90s, this made sense as a way to keep up with the Joneses. As everyone on here noted, that calculus changed pretty fast. The interesting thing is that of the airlines that had a large presence in MCO in the 80s and 90s, only DL still does. Everyone else has slowly retreated.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: United MCO hub?

Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:16 pm

N717TW wrote:
UA picked up the gates from DL when DL moved into its new "hub" concourses. I think people here forget that intra-Florida flying was still "a thing" in the late 80s and early 90s with EA/AA, PA and DL all having intra-Florida networks. DL, through comair, had a fairly larger intra-FL network based at MCO.

I should note that UA was not a "nobody" in Florida or Southeast back in the 80s given that UA had a very large presence, admittedly mostly from the midwest, under the old regulated days to Florida and even had a mini-hub in Atlanta. Of the major trunk lines UA was behind only DL, EA and maybe PA (after NA mergers) plus US after it pulled PI into the fold; AA was the one with no presence or name rec in Florida. By 1990 a lot of that point-to-point flying had disappeared as UA gave up their positions in CLE, DTW, etc. to consolidate at ORD and IAD.

Building MCO was a clear attempt to build back on the FL strength but also to create clear lines that help build up UA's business in the "other end of the flight" markets given that Florida is a major destination from both the Northeast and Midwest which were major markets for UA. Remember that in the early 90s, the LCCs hadn't caught on but DL and US had significantly built themselves out and were now able to compete effectively for western and midwest traffic against UA. Likewise, UA's archival AA had become a legit airline to Florida after buying EA's assets. In the market of the early 90s, this made sense as a way to keep up with the Joneses. As everyone on here noted, that calculus changed pretty fast. The interesting thing is that of the airlines that had a large presence in MCO in the 80s and 90s, only DL still does. Everyone else has slowly retreated.


UA was actually one of the largest airlines at FLL before deregulation. Probably third behind Delta & Eastern. Maybe National was about the same size. That presence throughout the state disappeared in much of the 80's. The MCO minihub which was eventually supposed to be a full blown hub,launched in 1991 was an attempt to take advantage of EA's collapse among other factors.
 
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STT757
Posts: 13801
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: United MCO hub?

Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:40 pm

MCO used to put out a monthly magazine that was available in the airport, it was about the latest airport developments and including sections about new air service and in the back had airline timetables for the airport. I have, in my parents attic somewhere, a couple of editions from the early nineties including this time period we’re discussing.

If I recall correctly I have one from Summer/ August 1992 when I was there on vacation with my family. I don’t recall anything UA specific, but I know I have one that describes the future DL concourse that was under construction.

What gates did UA get from DL, where they are now?

I would love UA to take a chance with focus cities or a new hub, like MCO, FLL in Florida or BNA for the Southeast.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
N649DL
Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: United MCO hub?

Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:48 pm

departedflights wrote:
For anyone interested, here is a rundown of United's Orlando flights effective July 1, 1992:

FROM ORLANDO

To Boston:
1:55pm (737)
6:50pm (737)

To Chicago Midway
8:50am (737)
2:05pm (737)
7:55pm (737)

To Chicago O'Hare
7:00am (737)
9:05am (757)
12:50pm (DC10)
7:10pm (737)

To Denver:
9:05am (737)
5:55pm (737)

To Fort Lauderdale:
11:05am (737)
3:40pm (737)
9:15pm (757)

To Fort Myers:
11:05am (737)
3:45pm (737)
9:15pm (737)

To Hartford/Springfield
1:55pm (737)

To Jacksonville:
9:20pm (737)

To Los Angeles:
9:00am (757)

To Mexico City:
11:10am (737)

To Miami:
11:05am (737)
3:45pm (737)
6:45pm (737)
9:15pm (737)

To Newark:
8:43am (737)
1:55pm (737)
6:45pm (737)

To New York LaGuardia
9:00am (737)
2:05pm (737)
6:58pm (737)

To San Francisco:
8:45am (757)

To Sarasota:
11:10am (737)
3:50pm (737)
9:25pm (737)

To Tampa:
9:30pm (757)

To Washington Dulles:
9:30am (737)
1:25pm (737)
3:28pm (737)
6:55pm (727)

To Washington National:
2:05pm (727)
6:56pm (737)

To West Palm Beach:
11:15am (737)
3:45pm (737)
9:15pm (737)

A total of 45 daily departures.


Thanks for this. UA's MCO hub was much smaller than I thought. It was more of an interconnection focus city for large spokes and hubs to smaller destinations in Florida.
 
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STT757
Posts: 13801
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: United MCO hub?

Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:53 pm

N649DL wrote:
departedflights wrote:
For anyone interested, here is a rundown of United's Orlando flights effective July 1, 1992:

FROM ORLANDO

To Boston:
1:55pm (737)
6:50pm (737)

To Chicago Midway
8:50am (737)
2:05pm (737)
7:55pm (737)

To Chicago O'Hare
7:00am (737)
9:05am (757)
12:50pm (DC10)
7:10pm (737)

To Denver:
9:05am (737)
5:55pm (737)

To Fort Lauderdale:
11:05am (737)
3:40pm (737)
9:15pm (757)

To Fort Myers:
11:05am (737)
3:45pm (737)
9:15pm (737)

To Hartford/Springfield
1:55pm (737)

To Jacksonville:
9:20pm (737)

To Los Angeles:
9:00am (757)

To Mexico City:
11:10am (737)

To Miami:
11:05am (737)
3:45pm (737)
6:45pm (737)
9:15pm (737)

To Newark:
8:43am (737)
1:55pm (737)
6:45pm (737)

To New York LaGuardia
9:00am (737)
2:05pm (737)
6:58pm (737)

To San Francisco:
8:45am (757)

To Sarasota:
11:10am (737)
3:50pm (737)
9:25pm (737)

To Tampa:
9:30pm (757)

To Washington Dulles:
9:30am (737)
1:25pm (737)
3:28pm (737)
6:55pm (727)

To Washington National:
2:05pm (727)
6:56pm (737)

To West Palm Beach:
11:15am (737)
3:45pm (737)
9:15pm (737)

A total of 45 daily departures.


Thanks for this. UA's MCO hub was much smaller than I thought. It was more of an interconnection focus city for large spokes and hubs to smaller destinations in Florida.


That used to be big business, I remember DL’s huge Comair operation underneath the APM. EM-2s to all over Florida, Bahamas, Alabama etc.. I think families used to make Disney a stop in a longer vacation that usually included Fort Lauderdale, Key West, Marco Island etc.. That’s what we used to do, these days Disney and there to four days in Fort Lauderdale or Key West. Today Disney tries to keep families on property that whole week.

In August 1992 we spent three days at the Contemporary resort and four days in Fort Lauderdale. However hurricane Andrew cut our beach time short and we evacuated back to Disney.


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Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
n2dru
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Re: United MCO hub?

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:59 am

N717TW wrote:
UA picked up the gates from DL when DL moved into its new "hub" concourses. I think people here forget that intra-Florida flying was still "a thing" in the late 80s and early 90s with EA/AA, PA and DL all having intra-Florida networks. DL, through comair, had a fairly larger intra-FL network based at MCO.

I should note that UA was not a "nobody" in Florida or Southeast back in the 80s given that UA had a very large presence, admittedly mostly from the midwest, under the old regulated days to Florida and even had a mini-hub in Atlanta. Of the major trunk lines UA was behind only DL, EA and maybe PA (after NA mergers) plus US after it pulled PI into the fold; AA was the one with no presence or name rec in Florida. By 1990 a lot of that point-to-point flying had disappeared as UA gave up their positions in CLE, DTW, etc. to consolidate at ORD and IAD.

Building MCO was a clear attempt to build back on the FL strength but also to create clear lines that help build up UA's business in the "other end of the flight" markets given that Florida is a major destination from both the Northeast and Midwest which were major markets for UA. Remember that in the early 90s, the LCCs hadn't caught on but DL and US had significantly built themselves out and were now able to compete effectively for western and midwest traffic against UA. Likewise, UA's archival AA had become a legit airline to Florida after buying EA's assets. In the market of the early 90s, this made sense as a way to keep up with the Joneses. As everyone on here noted, that calculus changed pretty fast. The interesting thing is that of the airlines that had a large presence in MCO in the 80s and 90s, only DL still does. Everyone else has slowly retreated.


If you're referring to United's merger with Capital back in the 60's that gave them more of a presence in the SE US. Then yes they had a decent intra south presence but eventually retreated back to the Midwest. You mentioned the mini hub at ATL ( leftover from Capital days) that didn't last long because of Delta and Eastern's dominance in the area. They even pulled out of ATL completely in the late 70s after deregulation (along with a lot of other southern cities) but returned in the mid 80s.
Last edited by n2dru on Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: United MCO hub?

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:04 am

STT757 wrote:
Besides the hub, UA was looking at making MCO their main maintenance base until they decided on IND. from the Orlando Sentinel article Florida didn’t offer enough incentives, it worked out though as the IND maintenance facility was one of the first things UA discarded in bankruptcy, sticking IND with the bill.


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UA does maintain a maint base in Orlando. 757 Center, I believe.
 
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STT757
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Re: United MCO hub?

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:07 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
STT757 wrote:
Besides the hub, UA was looking at making MCO their main maintenance base until they decided on IND. from the Orlando Sentinel article Florida didn’t offer enough incentives, it worked out though as the IND maintenance facility was one of the first things UA discarded in bankruptcy, sticking IND with the bill.


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UA does maintain a maint base in Orlando. 757 Center, I believe.


Yes, but it's a legacy CO facility. They work on everything, when I flew out of MCO on Thursday there was a UA 763 parked in front of one of their hangars.


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STT757
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Re: United MCO hub?

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:32 am

I'm not sure where they flew, but the database shows UAX aircraft at MCO in 1993.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/United- ... mO4wtHMT13


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Atlwarrior
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Re: United MCO hub?

Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:02 am

After Eastern demise in 1991, United should have built a hub in Atlanta. Delta probably would have had around 700 daily departures today and United around 250 daily departures out of Atlanta today; if they would have built a hub there.
 
departedflights
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Re: United MCO hub?

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:32 pm

STT757 wrote:
I'm not sure where they flew, but the database shows UAX aircraft at MCO in 1993.


Good catch on that!

Looking at the June 1993 OAG, United Express was operating J31s from Orlando to:

Fort Lauderdale (4x daily)
Fort Myers (1x)
Jacksonville (3x)
Melbourne (3x)
Miami (4x)
Sarasota (2X)
Tampa (2x)

Those were in addition to multiple mainline jet frequencies in each of those markets, as well (except Melbourne).
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: United MCO hub?

Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:36 pm

blockski wrote:
n2dru wrote:
Jaxman16 wrote:
Keep in mind, especially in the state of Florida and Southeast US, UA has the smallest presence of the US3's.. Thats an uphill battle right there...Florida especially is DL and AA country along with every LCC. They would have to invest heavily in MCO over years to make it work. My 2 cents.


Agreed, outside of major metro areas United is barely present or known in most Southeastern US markets. Delta and American are the dominant carriers in this part of the country with the LCCs taking up the slack at major cities and tourist driven locales. Sorry Houston is too far west and IAD is too far north to effectively serve this part of the country.


MCO won't effectively serve intra-SE travel, either, even if UA were to invest heavily in it. Just compare what's in the 500-mile radius of MCO compared to ATL or CLT. And for any traffic heading beyond the SE, UA would be better off trying to route that traffic via one of their existing hubs, depending on the final destination.

I suppose there's a more plausible case for MCO to serve as connecting hub for Caribbean and Latin American traffic, but that's still a huge lift and not at all likely to succeed.


Any talk of Orlando as a hub for anybody needs to consider that it has been tried several times before. MCO traffic is EXTREMELY price driven. In a downturn, the first thing to go is vacation spending. Yes, there is biz traffic, but not enough to support a lot of secondary p-p. Allegiant is already doing that with LTD in Sanford. Miami is the biz destination for Florida, Disney is not.
 
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STT757
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Re: United MCO hub?

Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:31 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
blockski wrote:
n2dru wrote:

Agreed, outside of major metro areas United is barely present or known in most Southeastern US markets. Delta and American are the dominant carriers in this part of the country with the LCCs taking up the slack at major cities and tourist driven locales. Sorry Houston is too far west and IAD is too far north to effectively serve this part of the country.


MCO won't effectively serve intra-SE travel, either, even if UA were to invest heavily in it. Just compare what's in the 500-mile radius of MCO compared to ATL or CLT. And for any traffic heading beyond the SE, UA would be better off trying to route that traffic via one of their existing hubs, depending on the final destination.

I suppose there's a more plausible case for MCO to serve as connecting hub for Caribbean and Latin American traffic, but that's still a huge lift and not at all likely to succeed.


Any talk of Orlando as a hub for anybody needs to consider that it has been tried several times before. MCO traffic is EXTREMELY price driven. In a downturn, the first thing to go is vacation spending. Yes, there is biz traffic, but not enough to support a lot of secondary p-p. Allegiant is already doing that with LTD in Sanford. Miami is the biz destination for Florida, Disney is not.


All true, but during the 2008 economic crisis Orlando faired much better than Las Vegas. Orlando is really dynamic, I don't see it slipping much off its current pace. I don't know about Miami being the business center for Florida anymore, yes in terms Latin trade and banking Miami is king. Orlando however is king for conventions, and their medical / bio research facilities are growing.

I know Oscar recently stated UA is not looking for another merger, and lord knows the last one was tough. But if UA were to acquire a carrier like Spirit it would give them a big boost. I was having dinner with my family at a restaurant near I-drive last week, I over heard our waitress telling the next table over it was her last day. She was starting a new career as a flight attendant for Spirit airlines at MCO. She said the airline was growing at MCO, especially to Latin America and the Caribbean. NK hired a good one, she was young, cute , excited to start her career and was very friendly.


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TWA85
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Re: United MCO hub?

Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:40 am

Here is an interesting article about NW, UA, and US attempts to build hubs/focus cities at various cities in Florida over the years. UA did in fact attempt to build a hub in MCO during the early 1990's. According to the article, UA struggled from the beginning to compete with DL and US. Then after purchasing the former PA MIA assets, UA closed the hub to reallocate those assets towards developing the new MIA hub (another ill fated hub).

https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2015/09/2 ... us-cities/
 
KFTG
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Re: United MCO hub?

Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:15 am

I have a distinct memory has a kid of seeing a United 747SP (may have been a 100 or 200) landing at MCO in the early 90s.
Any idea where it would have come from?
 
N649DL
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Re: United MCO hub?

Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:15 am

STT757 wrote:
I'm not sure where they flew, but the database shows UAX aircraft at MCO in 1993.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/United- ... mO4wtHMT13


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I agree with your statements about inter-FL destinations being moneymakers. I would've assume that's why CO was so cozy with Gulfstream back in the day using prop aircraft. They had an intense FL network with CO codeshares on it through the merger with UA and then some (especially at FLL which was also an arguable mini-hub for UA back in 2012-2013.)

As far as the UAEX aircraft photo at MCO, if you look at Departedflights.com, UA was pretty flighty (no pun intended) and/or experimenting on using large spokes or focus cities for UAEX use. Best thing I can find as example is look at the 1999 timetable from JFK on UA: BWI and ROC were briefly served on UAEX and then quickly dropped. I believe UA did the same out of EWR to BOS in and around 1997-1998 but departed flights doesn't have any timetables from that era. Here's JFK: http://www.departedflights.com/JFK99p1.html

So it was probably fairly easy for UA to set up shop out of MCO to transition mainline to UAEX or just add new destinations in general. Similar examples exist with NW out of EWR in 1990-1991 and US pre-9/11 in 2000-2001 to mainly Upstate NY and New England cities. I recall flying Midway out of EWR in 2001 and seeing a large number of prop planes next to US Mainline aircraft. Yet, the only US mainline were to hub destinations. Odd how they set that up at EWR and pulled it down real fast. Perhaps it was because they were staged to merge with UA at the time, IDK?
 
UAL777UK
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Re: United MCO hub?

Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:05 pm

Crikey. This thread brought back a few memories. I remember taking a DC10 on UA out of MIA to MCO a few times back in the 90s. How times change.

I for one think hell will freeze over before you ever see MCO become anything like a hub for UA.
 
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STT757
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Re: United MCO hub?

Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:34 pm

N649DL wrote:
STT757 wrote:
I'm not sure where they flew, but the database shows UAX aircraft at MCO in 1993.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/United- ... mO4wtHMT13


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I agree with your statements about inter-FL destinations being moneymakers. I would've assume that's why CO was so cozy with Gulfstream back in the day using prop aircraft. They had an intense FL network with CO codeshares on it through the merger with UA and then some (especially at FLL which was also an arguable mini-hub for UA back in 2012-2013.)

As far as the UAEX aircraft photo at MCO, if you look at Departedflights.com, UA was pretty flighty (no pun intended) and/or experimenting on using large spokes or focus cities for UAEX use. Best thing I can find as example is look at the 1999 timetable from JFK on UA: BWI and ROC were briefly served on UAEX and then quickly dropped. I believe UA did the same out of EWR to BOS in and around 1997-1998 but departed flights doesn't have any timetables from that era. Here's JFK: http://www.departedflights.com/JFK99p1.html

So it was probably fairly easy for UA to set up shop out of MCO to transition mainline to UAEX or just add new destinations in general. Similar examples exist with NW out of EWR in 1990-1991 and US pre-9/11 in 2000-2001 to mainly Upstate NY and New England cities. I recall flying Midway out of EWR in 2001 and seeing a large number of prop planes next to US Mainline aircraft. Yet, the only US mainline were to hub destinations. Odd how they set that up at EWR and pulled it down real fast. Perhaps it was because they were staged to merge with UA at the time, IDK?


UA also had their code on those Gulfstream flights in Florida, this was common in the late Nineties and early ‘00s. If you look at that Kennedy airport OAG schedule you posted you will see TWAExpess and DLExpress were one in the same operated by Trans States.

During the late Nineties CO placed their code on Skywest flights from LAX. In November 1997 I connected via LAX to SFO on CO from EWR. I flew a CO 757 from EWR-LAX, and then connected to a CO 733 from LAX-SFO. It was one of those long haul 733s with the tv monitors over the aisles which operated flights like CLE-LAX, CLE-SFO etc.. While waiting for my connecting flight to SFO, which was coming in from CLE, I walked over to see what the newly announced COEX flights from LAX looked like. They were in Skywest house colors, and operated from Skywest branded gates in T-6 on the opposite side of the CO gates (T-5 side). UA and CO both had their codes on the Skywest EM2 flights from LAX.


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STT757
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Re: United MCO hub?

Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:54 am

Image

So I cleaned out my closet and found my old UNITED timetables from this time period that I had acquired at the time from the UNITED ticket counter at MCO in 1993 and 1994. A comparison:

April 1993 MCO (63 daily flights)

BOS 2 737, ORD 2 757, 3 DC-10, 1 727- DEN 2 757, 1 737- RSW 1 J31, 2 737, 1 757- JAX 3 J31, 1 737- LAX 1 757- MLB 3 J31- MEX 1 737- MIA 4 J31, 2 737, 2 757- FLL 3 J31, 1 727, 1 737, 1 DC-10- MKE 1 737- EWR 3 737, 1 727- LGA 1 727, 3 737- SFO 1 DC-10- SRQ 1 J31, 1 727, 1 737-TPA 1 J31, 1 727, 1 757- DCA 3 737- IAD 2 737, 1 767- PBI 3 737.

April 1994 ( 42 daily flights)

ORD 2 757, 1 DC-10, 1 737- DEN 1 757, 2 737- RSW 5 J31, 1 737- JAX 3 J31- LAX 1 757- MEX 1 737- MIA 7 J31, 2 757- FLL 1 757- SFO 1 DC-10- SRQ 3 J31, 1 757- TPA 1 J31- IAD 1 727, 1 737, 2 757- PBI 3 J31, 1 757.
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TwinStarRocket
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Re: United MCO hub?

Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:46 pm

blockski wrote:

But if UA were to acquire a carrier like Spirit it would give them a big boost.


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I can assure you that virtually none of us at NK want anything to do with UA. They can keep doing their thing and let us do ours.

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