LATAM Brazil will drop the curtain on the recently introduced GRU-FCO route, which is being cancelled on 1/10/19; prior to that if will go from daily to 5x w from 12/8 to 30/9.

https://twitter.com/Airlineroute/status ... 2709011457

LATAM is also downgauging its GRU-BCN route, effective 1/7/19. It goes from an A359 to a 763ER, a reduction from 339 to 221 seats each way.

dcajet, any new expansion in North America for LATAM? I see LATAM (all the subsidiaries) only fly to MIA, MCO, LAX, JFK & BOS in North America. Any chance in 2019 the reintroduction of IAD or SFO!? Or launch of GRU-LAX non-stop to compete with AA!? I looked at AA's GRU-LAX recently and it seems business class is nearly full.

x1234 wrote:

dcajet, any new expansion in North America for LATAM? I see LATAM (all the subsidiaries) only fly to MIA, MCO, LAX, JFK & BOS in the Americas. Any chance in 2019 the reintroduction of IAD or SFO!? Or launch of GRU-LAX non-stop to compete with AA!? I looked at AA's GRU-LAX recently and it seems business class is nearly full.

LAS is also served from GRU.

SFO & IAD, there is a reason why they left. LATAM lost its shirt there. Not in the short to mid term.

Now, why would LA compete with AA? They are trying to get a JBA approved for Pete's sake! Besides, GRU-LAX is rightly sized at 4x w. They were not making money when it was flown daily or near daily and with the 77W.

Aeromexico is also suspending their new route to BCN in W19/20.

BCN to LatAm is low yielding and seasonal.

dcajet wrote:

LAS is also served from GRU.

Did this one ever actually start? I don't see it listed on the LAS or GRU wikipedia pages (and they're usually pretty accurate as far as which international airlines serve an airport), and I don't remember seeing it in schedules recently...

Is there someone who has the knowledge-set about the current yield climate across South America? I've lost track and would be keen to better understand where things currently stand.

Nonstop capacity seems to be at what is an all-time peak between the US and South America after the Brazil-driven pullback that was 2016 and 2017, but these suspensions and reductions have me thinking that the pendulum is swinging back.

FSDan wrote:

dcajet wrote:

LAS is also served from GRU.

Did this one ever actually start? I don't see it listed on the LAS or GRU wikipedia pages (and they're usually pretty accurate as far as which international airlines serve an airport), and I don't remember seeing it in schedules recently...

https://www.ktnv.com/news/photos-inaugu ... -las-vegas

This indicates it started, but I cant find a ton beyond that either.

winginit wrote:

Is there someone who has the knowledge-set about the current yield climate across South America? I've lost track and would be keen to better understand where things currently stand.

Nonstop capacity seems to be at what is an all-time peak between the US and South America after the Brazil-driven pullback that was 2016 and 2017, but these suspensions and reductions have me thinking that the pendulum is swinging back.

I don't have any insider knowledge or anything, but I'd infer from recent network changes at the US3 that things in Brazil and Argentina are not great but not terrible. Example changes:

• AA cut back service to GIG - dropped seasonal DFW service and made year-round JFK service seasonal.
• AA cut service to CNF.
• AA moderately trimmed service to EZE, taking the 77W off MIA-EZE (but staying double daily on the route) and making DFW-EZE a 788 for the summer. On the other hand, they also added LAX-EZE, and I believe we heard comments from AA that the route is meeting or exceeding expectations.
• AA is starting MIA-COR 4x weekly this summer. Start date was pushed back, but I think that was due to runway construction at COR, or something like that...
• UA has maintained pretty consistent service to South America, with the lone downgauge recently being EWR-EZE moving from a 764 to a 763 for the summer season. Pretty minor.
• DL has dropped the 3x weekly DTW-GRU service, but has maintained pretty consistent capacity to South America across the rest of the network. The 333 will continue operating ATL-EZE and ATL-GRU through the summer.

Outside of deep South America, Venezuela is obviously having a terrible time, but Colombia seems to be booming. AA has started several MIA-Secondary Columbia routes, UA is now double daily on IAH-BOG, DL has kept their weekly ATL-CTG around in addition to the daily 752 to BOG, etc. Peru and Chile seem to have been fairly stable recently.

It is not just Rome that gets axed from LATAM's route map. Munich also got axed recently and Lisbon may also be going away according to various sources.

https://www.airway1.com/latam-suspends-flight-between-brazil-and-munich/


LATAM Brasil:

GRU-LIS (6X)
GRU-LHR (7X)
GRU-MAD (7X)
GRU-BCN (7X) DOWNGRADED
GRU-CDG (7X)
GRU-FRA (7X)
GRU-MXP (7x)

GRU-FCO (7x) AXED
GRU-MUC AXED

Too much competition from Brazil to Europe and the low-yielding destinations are not able to withstand the pressure.

LatinPlane wrote:

It is not just Rome that gets axed from LATAM's route map. Munich also got axed recently and Lisbon may also be going away according to various sources.

https://www.airway1.com/latam-suspends-flight-between-brazil-and-munich/


LATAM Brasil:

GRU-LIS (6X)
GRU-LHR (7X)
GRU-MAD (7X)
GRU-BCN (7X) DOWNGRADED
GRU-CDG (7X)
GRU-FRA (7X)
GRU-MXP (7x)

GRU-FCO (7x) AXED
GRU-MUC AXED

Too much competition from Brazil to Europe and the low-yielding destinations are not able to withstand the pressure.

In addition to the above, I would also add that the Brazilian economy's recovery is still something more of a wish than reality.

dcajet wrote:

LatinPlane wrote:

It is not just Rome that gets axed from LATAM's route map. Munich also got axed recently and Lisbon may also be going away according to various sources.

https://www.airway1.com/latam-suspends-flight-between-brazil-and-munich/


LATAM Brasil:

GRU-LIS (6X)
GRU-LHR (7X)
GRU-MAD (7X)
GRU-BCN (7X) DOWNGRADED
GRU-CDG (7X)
GRU-FRA (7X)
GRU-MXP (7x)

GRU-FCO (7x) AXED
GRU-MUC AXED

Too much competition from Brazil to Europe and the low-yielding destinations are not able to withstand the pressure.

In addition to the above, I would also add that the Brazilian economy's recovery is still something more of a wish than reality.

I agree. But we also need to point out that Latam’s service is much lower than in the past. I recently flew GRU-LHR in the PT-MUA, their first 77W. I was in J and the service was crap. The airplane needs a facelift urgently. I don’t fly Latam anymore to US and also will not fly to Europe.

SJPBR wrote:

dcajet wrote:

LatinPlane wrote:

It is not just Rome that gets axed from LATAM's route map. Munich also got axed recently and Lisbon may also be going away according to various sources.

https://www.airway1.com/latam-suspends-flight-between-brazil-and-munich/


LATAM Brasil:

GRU-LIS (6X)
GRU-LHR (7X)
GRU-MAD (7X)
GRU-BCN (7X) DOWNGRADED
GRU-CDG (7X)
GRU-FRA (7X)
GRU-MXP (7x)

GRU-FCO (7x) AXED
GRU-MUC AXED

Too much competition from Brazil to Europe and the low-yielding destinations are not able to withstand the pressure.

In addition to the above, I would also add that the Brazilian economy's recovery is still something more of a wish than reality.

I agree. But we also need to point out that Latam’s service is much lower than in the past. I recently flew GRU-LHR in the PT-MUA, their first 77W. I was in J and the service was crap. The airplane needs a facelift urgently. I don’t fly Latam anymore to US and also will not fly to Europe.

LATAM has recently unveiled a new J cabin for their 359. I suspect it will be retrofited on the 77W shortly.

yulexpansion wrote:

SJPBR wrote:

dcajet wrote:

In addition to the above, I would also add that the Brazilian economy's recovery is still something more of a wish than reality.

I agree. But we also need to point out that Latam’s service is much lower than in the past. I recently flew GRU-LHR in the PT-MUA, their first 77W. I was in J and the service was crap. The airplane needs a facelift urgently. I don’t fly Latam anymore to US and also will not fly to Europe.

LATAM has recently unveiled a new J cabin for their 359. I suspect it will be retrofited on the 77W shortly.

The 359 J (as delivered) were nice. It not only the hard. Also the soft is bad. The service was bad.I also flew MXP-GRU in Y in the 763 last week. It was one of the newest 763 around (6-7 years old). I do like the 767 in Y. The airplane was great but the service was atrocious.



edit: minor typo

yulexpansion wrote:

SJPBR wrote:

dcajet wrote:

In addition to the above, I would also add that the Brazilian economy's recovery is still something more of a wish than reality.

I agree. But we also need to point out that Latam’s service is much lower than in the past. I recently flew GRU-LHR in the PT-MUA, their first 77W. I was in J and the service was crap. The airplane needs a facelift urgently. I don’t fly Latam anymore to US and also will not fly to Europe.

LATAM has recently unveiled a new J cabin for their 359. I suspect it will be retrofited on the 77W shortly.

There is already a 767 in commercial service with the new cabins, but it is based in LIM. That said, the first 77W slated to receive the new cabins was flown to AUH.

I flew ATL-GIG a few days ago, and will do GRU-ATL Saturday.
For someone with USD, this place is amazingly inexpensive.

That said, it’s also crazy to watch FR24 and see the amount of traffic coming into GRU (and GIG/EZE/SCL to lesser extents).
I have no insight into any of this, but, there is a TON of service back and forth, so, totally off the cuff, not surprised at all to see some carriers cut back a bit.
It’s widebody heaven here!

I wonder how well SCL-GRU-TLV is doing for LATAM Chile. Although this one is a special case as the only non-stop market from TLV to South America, I have to think it may also fall in the low-yielding category routes given the multiple connections offered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRaibweIjXs

dcajet wrote:

There is already a 767 in commercial service with the new cabins, but it is based in LIM. That said, the first 77W slated to receive the new cabins was flown to AUH.

PT-MUD has been in AUH since October, but I am not sure if it started retrofit since then...

There was already a slack in JJ longhaul fleet. With this suspension, things will worsen in this matter (slack)

SCQ83 wrote:

Aeromexico is also suspending their new route to BCN in W19/20.

BCN to LatAm is low yielding and seasonal.

Not necessarily, AV has been doing the route year round for years and has been very successful. I'm not sure what they are doing differently from anybody else on that market but they are thriving with an annual LF of 96% and market growth of 7%

pipeafcr wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

Aeromexico is also suspending their new route to BCN in W19/20.

BCN to LatAm is low yielding and seasonal.

Not necessarily, AV has been doing the route year round for years and has been very successful. I'm not sure what they are doing differently from anybody else on that market but they are thriving with an annual LF of 96% and market growth of 7%

The BOG hub helps a lot; they can aggregate passengers from many places. Now, keep in mind that full planes do not necessarily translate into profitable flights. I'd love to see their numbers on this route. BCN is not a high yielding destination and Avianca is not immune from market forces. For the record, AR planes to BCN were always full and yet the operation was loss making.

Both Argentina and Brazil are not doing good, but as we can see the hermanos are the ones which must be suffering the most.
Brazil still manages to see the return of MUC-GRU with LH in the A350, new YUL-GRU with AC 789 and LON-GRU with VS, which are rather unexpected imo.

Latam still have not said anything about LIS. GRU-JNB will have the A350 instead of the 767.
Maybe FRA will get the A350? Latam seems to always change their strategy.

Right now there is only one 767 which has been retrofitted with the new and more competitive interior.

FSDan wrote:

dcajet wrote:

LAS is also served from GRU.

Did this one ever actually start? I don't see it listed on the LAS or GRU wikipedia pages (and they're usually pretty accurate as far as which international airlines serve an airport), and I don't remember seeing it in schedules recently...

The JJ wiki page is also missing JNB on the route map, so not super accurate.

LAS is / was just a seasonal route, if I am not mistaken.

Also there's additional code-sharing between LATAM & Cathay Pacific for traffic out of GRU & SCL to HKG via MEL and JNB respectively:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... pril-2019/
They are finally code-sharing on the SHORTEST DISTANCE routes of SCL-HKG via MEL (already exists via AKL & SYD) and GRU-HKG via JNB. The existing codeshres via LAX/JFK/LHR/FRA/CDG/MAD take significantly longer.

LatinPlane wrote:

It is not just Rome that gets axed from LATAM's route map. Munich also got axed recently and Lisbon may also be going away according to various sources.

https://www.airway1.com/latam-suspends-flight-between-brazil-and-munich/


LATAM Brasil:

GRU-LIS (6X)
GRU-LHR (7X)
GRU-MAD (7X)
GRU-BCN (7X) DOWNGRADED
GRU-CDG (7X)
GRU-FRA (7X)
GRU-MXP (7x)

GRU-FCO (7x) AXED
GRU-MUC AXED

Too much competition from Brazil to Europe and the low-yielding destinations are not able to withstand the pressure.

Once LH was back on the route I knew GRU-MUC on JJ/LA would be over.

I guess LATAM putting the A350 on GRU-JNB will enhance the performance of the CX code-share onward to HKG.

How many LATAM A350s are still with QR? And how many birds do they still have on order?

Just out of curiosity - was it the poor economics of the 763 that caused them to end this route?

FSDan wrote:

dcajet wrote:

LAS is also served from GRU.

Did this one ever actually start? I don't see it listed on the LAS or GRU wikipedia pages (and they're usually pretty accurate as far as which international airlines serve an airport), and I don't remember seeing it in schedules recently...

Yes. I flew this flight in February. I don’t see it on the schedule any more however and I’ve been wondering if it will return anytime soon. i hope so!

1989worstyear wrote:

Just out of curiosity - was it the poor economics of the 763 that caused them to end this route?

MXP is home to the majority of the Brazilian diaspora in Italy. JJ has done well on MXP because of VFR and fashion week.

Alitalia does averagely okay on FCO-GRU and the flight itself is enough to fulfill the little demand that exists. The nearly nonexistent brand recognition of JJ in Rome didn’t help either.

gatibosgru wrote:

How many LATAM A350s are still with QR?

They have three: A7AMA, A7AMB and A7AQA

gatibosgru wrote:

How many LATAM A350s are still with QR?

There are two A359s with QR: PR-XTF and PR-XTG

SJPBR wrote:

I agree. But we also need to point out that Latam’s service is much lower than in the past. I recently flew GRU-LHR in the PT-MUA, their first 77W. I was in J and the service was crap. The airplane needs a facelift urgently. I don’t fly Latam anymore to US and also will not fly to Europe.

LATAM's business class service is way below the market. They should have thought about it way back then, so their A350s could have arrived with new interiors, in a 1x2x1 configuration. Now, even their newest planes have outdated products, that probably won't be updated anytime soon, since the priority is the older planes. At least they have plans to start retrofiting their 777s this year.

With FCO being canceled and BCN returning to the 767, is there any chance that MXP is going back to the A350? JNB is also probably being upgauged, since the 767s is not the most suitable aircraft to fly the route because of it's ETOPS restrictions.

geoshina wrote:

Both Argentina and Brazil are not doing good, ... and LON-GRU with VS, which are rather unexpected imo...

Are you sure about this? To my knowledge, VS does not fly to Brazil at all neither has plans to start.

Would be nice though.

As for the overall cuts, I do not see this as being an economic issue but rather LATAM moving things around with their Aircraft. They need to refurbish their B77Ws (or deal with their leases) and are moving A359s around as well as reviewing their B763s and incoming A350-1000s that would be joining soon.

MUC was always a non-hoper since it does not afford more than one airline doing the route and once LH came back, it was game over.

FCO is mainly a connecting hub for South Americans and there was a lot at stake on a collapse of Allitalia which did not materialise meaning there's not enough demand as it is.

Flew LATAM from LHR to GRU and back a couple of times and it depends on the B77W (none of which - or at least all but one - have yet been painted on the new livery) you get in regards to comfort (some seats can be rock solid). Service was fine but, when you compare to the (really good service) of Air France (I do not know why do they serve their GRU route so well compared to other destinations - no complaints here though), it really lacks.

BA is a hit and miss - their fleet is old and the staff varies between you being served by someone out of "Escape to the Country" and/or someone fresh out of "Eastenders" (both BBC programs for the benefit of the non-UK folks here).

geoshina wrote:

Right now there is only one 767 which has been retrofitted with the new and more competitive interior.

CC-CXC is its reg and flies mostly to EZE, SCL, MEX and GRU from LIM.

geoshina wrote:

Both Argentina and Brazil are not doing good, but as we can see the hermanos are the ones which must be suffering the most.
Brazil still manages to see the return of MUC-GRU with LH in the A350, new YUL-GRU with AC 789 and LON-GRU with VS, which are rather unexpected imo.

While Argentina may not be enjoying a stable year by any means, facts are not aligned with your post.

1. The Argentina air market continues to grow, both domestically and internationally. Keep in mind that while outbound travel is down ~5% YoY, inbound travel is up by 15%, fueled by record arrivals of tourists into the country,

2. There have been a small # of cancellations or suspensions of service, but mostly to SCL that were predicated upon an irrational exuberance of flights to/fr SCL to secondary cities in Argentina due to Chile becoming the new MIA - while it lasted. Other than that, the international market has been remarkably stable in the face of the economic volatility. In fact, can't think of one single long haul cancellation of service in the last 12 mos other than Emirates & Ethiopian reducing service, but those affected GRU as well and were more a reflection of those airlines than the destinations themselves....

3. There have been quite a few additions of service including 2 new airlines, JetSmart & Norwegian

4. AA just added non stop LAX service and in June a new destination in Argentina, Cordoba. from Miami. Delta just returned the A333 to the ATL-EZE route.

5. Edelweiss recently started non stop ZRH-EZE service

6. AV & AR doubled BOG service

7. EZE-LIM with a record 8 daily r/t services

So, not sure why exactly you say the "hermanos" may be suffering the most...

SCQ83 wrote:

Aeromexico is also suspending their new route to BCN in W19/20.

So are they getting ready to throw another tantrum at authorities because EK?

Are there any plans to upgrade the interior of the 777? I flew on Business class a few months ago and it was really pathetic, broken seats, IFE not working on one entire row. Also, 2-3-2 configuration on business class is really not impressive. Service is good, though.

SDUMIA wrote:

Are there any plans to upgrade the interior of the 777? I flew on Business class a few months ago and it was really pathetic, broken seats, IFE not working on one entire row. Also, 2-3-2 configuration on business class is really not impressive. Service is good, though.

767s and 777s first, then 78s7 and A350s to follow. That was the plan.

dcajet wrote:

1. The Argentina air market continues to grow, both domestically and internationally. Keep in mind that while outbound travel is down ~5% YoY, inbound travel is up by 15%, fueled by record arrivals of tourists into the country,

(...)

Depending on the month the seat supply in and out of Argentina is down 10-to-15% compared to last year.

Virgin Atlantic announced that it will start LHR - GRU next year: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/dest ... -heathrow/

Jomar777 wrote:

geoshina wrote:

Both Argentina and Brazil are not doing good, ... and LON-GRU with VS, which are rather unexpected imo...

Are you sure about this? To my knowledge, VS does not fly to Brazil at all neither has plans to start.

Would be nice though.

As for the overall cuts, I do not see this as being an economic issue but rather LATAM moving things around with their Aircraft. They need to refurbish their B77Ws (or deal with their leases) and are moving A359s around as well as reviewing their B763s and incoming A350-1000s that would be joining soon.

MUC was always a non-hoper since it does not afford more than one airline doing the route and once LH came back, it was game over.

FCO is mainly a connecting hub for South Americans and there was a lot at stake on a collapse of Allitalia which did not materialise meaning there's not enough demand as it is.

Flew LATAM from LHR to GRU and back a couple of times and it depends on the B77W (none of which - or at least all but one - have yet been painted on the new livery) you get in regards to comfort (some seats can be rock solid). Service was fine but, when you compare to the (really good service) of Air France (I do not know why do they serve their GRU route so well compared to other destinations - no complaints here though), it really lacks.

BA is a hit and miss - their fleet is old and the staff varies between you being served by someone out of "Escape to the Country" and/or someone fresh out of "Eastenders" (both BBC programs for the benefit of the non-UK folks here).

jasoncrh wrote:

Virgin Atlantic announced that it will start LHR - GRU next year: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/dest ... -heathrow/

Jomar777 wrote:

geoshina wrote:

Both Argentina and Brazil are not doing good, ... and LON-GRU with VS, which are rather unexpected imo...

Are you sure about this? To my knowledge, VS does not fly to Brazil at all neither has plans to start.

Would be nice though.

As for the overall cuts, I do not see this as being an economic issue but rather LATAM moving things around with their Aircraft. They need to refurbish their B77Ws (or deal with their leases) and are moving A359s around as well as reviewing their B763s and incoming A350-1000s that would be joining soon.

MUC was always a non-hoper since it does not afford more than one airline doing the route and once LH came back, it was game over.

FCO is mainly a connecting hub for South Americans and there was a lot at stake on a collapse of Allitalia which did not materialise meaning there's not enough demand as it is.

Flew LATAM from LHR to GRU and back a couple of times and it depends on the B77W (none of which - or at least all but one - have yet been painted on the new livery) you get in regards to comfort (some seats can be rock solid). Service was fine but, when you compare to the (really good service) of Air France (I do not know why do they serve their GRU route so well compared to other destinations - no complaints here though), it really lacks.

BA is a hit and miss - their fleet is old and the staff varies between you being served by someone out of "Escape to the Country" and/or someone fresh out of "Eastenders" (both BBC programs for the benefit of the non-UK folks here).

VS announced LGW-GIG before, but they never did it. I will believe when I see the airplane in a GRU gate

gatibosgru wrote:

FSDan wrote:

dcajet wrote:

LAS is also served from GRU.

Did this one ever actually start? I don't see it listed on the LAS or GRU wikipedia pages (and they're usually pretty accurate as far as which international airlines serve an airport), and I don't remember seeing it in schedules recently...

The JJ wiki page is also missing JNB on the route map, so not super accurate.

Well, the McCarran International Airport website doesn't have them in their list of airlines, so I'd say that's a good indication the route is discontinued.

FSDan wrote:

gatibosgru wrote:

FSDan wrote:

Did this one ever actually start? I don't see it listed on the LAS or GRU wikipedia pages (and they're usually pretty accurate as far as which international airlines serve an airport), and I don't remember seeing it in schedules recently...

The JJ wiki page is also missing JNB on the route map, so not super accurate.

Well, the McCarran International Airport website doesn't have them in their list of airlines, so I'd say that's a good indication the route is discontinued.

It did actually start, not sure when it was supposed to end it's seasonal run. But would be a shame if it was already cut. I'm glad BOS looks pretty healthy at least load wise.

gatibosgru wrote:

FSDan wrote:

gatibosgru wrote:

The JJ wiki page is also missing JNB on the route map, so not super accurate.

Well, the McCarran International Airport website doesn't have them in their list of airlines, so I'd say that's a good indication the route is discontinued.

It did actually start, not sure when it was supposed to end it's seasonal run. But would be a shame if it was already cut. I'm glad BOS looks pretty healthy at least load wise.

Here are the dates from last year's schedule (2018):

https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/ ... l-service/

It is almost May, so it may have been suspended for this year.

LATAM is rumoured to cancel GRU-LIS/LAS/BOS, LIM-MBJ, SCL-NQN...

the Tel Aviv route has fare paying pax filling the business cabin, so that one seems to be working.

DominoxX wrote:

LATAM is rumoured to cancel GRU-LIS/LAS/BOS, LIM-MBJ, SCL-NQN...

the Tel Aviv route has fare paying pax filling the business cabin, so that one seems to be working.

Indeed LIM-MBJ's is being suspended before it started.

https://www.latamtrade.com/en_us/news/S ... go_Bay_eng

The rest, still waiting for confirmation, although LAS has not been loaded for this coming peak July travel season, so that is a goner too it seems.

And SCL-ROS is getting the axe as of October 1, 2019.

https://www.latamtrade.com/en_us/news/C ... SCL_ROS_EN

dcajet wrote:

Now, keep in mind that full planes do not necessarily translate into profitable flights. I'd love to see their numbers on this route..

I don't know the numbers, but Avianca just recently announced the addition of 3 weekly seasonal flights on the BOG-BCN on top of their daily flight. I think they would hardly invest any more resources on the route if it wasn't doing good.

Southamerica wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Now, keep in mind that full planes do not necessarily translate into profitable flights. I'd love to see their numbers on this route..

I don't know the numbers, but Avianca just recently announced the addition of 3 weekly seasonal flights on the BOG-BCN on top of their daily flight. I think they would hardly invest any more resources on the route if it wasn't doing good.

the BCN flight is always full to be honest and not the cheapest yields must be good i was under the impression that they weren't allowed to add extra flights ..