leghorn
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Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:11 pm

30 instead of 35 deliveries for 2019 forecast.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bomb ... SKCN1S1168
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:16 pm

Bombardier cut its full-year revenue forecast by $750 million to about $8.75 billion for its transportation business and by $250 million to $1.15 billion for its commercial aircraft business.

$1.15 Billion is not a big business. It gets to answering why BBD doesn't start a big project to upgrade/replace the CRJ family.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:55 pm

The legend of BBD and the CSeries will go down in history as an epic business fail, and its really quite a shame.
No matter how good the product, or well envisioned the market could be, things went horribly wrong for BBD and they still can't get it on track. Its such a shame - they really hung out their own company and countries pride.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:10 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
The legend of BBD and the CSeries will go down in history as an epic business fail, and its really quite a shame.
No matter how good the product, or well envisioned the market could be, things went horribly wrong for BBD and they still can't get it on track. Its such a shame - they really hung out their own company and countries pride.


C-Series yes, A220 no. Airbus is the real winner here.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
c933103
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:15 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
The legend of BBD and the CSeries will go down in history as an epic business fail, and its really quite a shame.
No matter how good the product, or well envisioned the market could be, things went horribly wrong for BBD and they still can't get it on track. Its such a shame - they really hung out their own company and countries pride.

Or to put in another way, it just show how many resources it need to compete with established aircraft developers nowadays
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
Noshow
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:22 pm

If Airbus manages to built up the new A220 final assembly line in Mobile fast and fill it with "converts" like mabye Southwest, it might see a long and healthy future.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:45 pm

Noshow wrote:
If Airbus manages to built up the new A220 final assembly line in Mobile fast and fill it with "converts" like mabye Southwest, it might see a long and healthy future.

The aircraft could see a healthy future while being the downfall is the company that created it.

BBD appears to be getting out of the commercial air business at this point, and their rail division could certainly have used the reasources that went into the C-Series.
 
clipperlondon
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:06 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
Noshow wrote:
If Airbus manages to built up the new A220 final assembly line in Mobile fast and fill it with "converts" like mabye Southwest, it might see a long and healthy future.

The aircraft could see a healthy future while being the downfall is the company that created it.

BBD appears to be getting out of the commercial air business at this point, and their rail division could certainly have used the reasources that went into the C-Series.


Derby (UK) alone has 1611 rail vehicles on order including the Elizabeth Line in London.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:09 pm

So they are going to deliver less planes because the Q400 program has been sold. I don't really see how this reduction is the disappointing bit from their update.

I would go further and ask what's the point of still having a commercial aircraft division with 1 model and just 4 deliveries in a quarter. I know that it's in addition to the Business Aircrafts, but does it make sense to keep up a sales team and support facilities aimed at airlines just for these kind of numbers?
 
yulexpansion
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:17 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
So they are going to deliver less planes because the Q400 program has been sold. I don't really see how this reduction is the disappointing bit from their update.

I would go further and ask what's the point of still having a commercial aircraft division with 1 model and just 4 deliveries in a quarter. I know that it's in addition to the Business Aircrafts, but does it make sense to keep up a sales team and support facilities aimed at airlines just for these kind of numbers?


There are significant synergies between the Challenger biz jets and the CRJ line on top of the Mirabel facility with its employees. Don't forget that on top of everything, BBD is an important political entity in Quebec/Canada. After divesting itself of the QSeries, they need to let the dust settle before selling another lineup if that ends up being the case.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:28 pm

clipperlondon wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
BBD appears to be getting out of the commercial air business at this point, and their rail division could certainly have used the reasources that went into the C-Series.


Derby (UK) alone has 1611 rail vehicles on order including the Elizabeth Line in London.


For sure, they have quite a few orders on the books, the question is how well they can fill them. NYC had stopped taking delivery over concerns about sure conditioning units on delivered rolling stock. Swiss Railways stopped taking delivery of Intercity trainsets until BBD can get the doors to close properly.

These delivery problems have gotten so bad that it's costing future orders *in Canada.* The Quebec City to Windsor line is going to Simmens AG, largely beacause of concerns over BBDs ability to deliver on-time.
 
robsaw
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:54 pm

While BBD has order/delivery issues on aircraft, I'd say that the execution issues that could really hurt them are in rail.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:57 pm

Noshow wrote:
If Airbus manages to built up the new A220 final assembly line in Mobile fast and fill it with "converts" like mabye Southwest, it might see a long and healthy future.

That kind of market analysis is the same kind that got the C Series into so much trouble that it caused billions of losses that forced the shareholders to sell off a majority stake for $1.

"Build it and they shall come" is not a great business strategy.
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clipperlondon
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:33 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
clipperlondon wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
BBD appears to be getting out of the commercial air business at this point, and their rail division could certainly have used the reasources that went into the C-Series.


Derby (UK) alone has 1611 rail vehicles on order including the Elizabeth Line in London.


For sure, they have quite a few orders on the books, the question is how well they can fill them. NYC had stopped taking delivery over concerns about sure conditioning units on delivered rolling stock. Swiss Railways stopped taking delivery of Intercity trainsets until BBD can get the doors to close properly.

These delivery problems have gotten so bad that it's costing future orders *in Canada.* The Quebec City to Windsor line is going to Simmens AG, largely beacause of concerns over BBDs ability to deliver on-time.


Interesting Name Omitted. They'll have plenty of time to fix any issues what with the fiasco over the Elizabeth Line :sigh: :banghead:
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:02 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
clipperlondon wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
BBD appears to be getting out of the commercial air business at this point, and their rail division could certainly have used the reasources that went into the C-Series.


Derby (UK) alone has 1611 rail vehicles on order including the Elizabeth Line in London.


For sure, they have quite a few orders on the books, the question is how well they can fill them. NYC had stopped taking delivery over concerns about sure conditioning units on delivered rolling stock. Swiss Railways stopped taking delivery of Intercity trainsets until BBD can get the doors to close properly.

These delivery problems have gotten so bad that it's costing future orders *in Canada.* The Quebec City to Windsor line is going to Simmens AG, largely beacause of concerns over BBDs ability to deliver on-time.


It's not really a new problem. Look at the debacle with the 5000 series El cars in Chicago, for instance.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:02 pm

BBD deliveries 137 business jets at EOY 2019 and they’ll do that or more this year. It’s back to basics.

GF
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:12 pm

Huh fewer commercials as the deals transfer the Q400 out of their ownership earlier.

Other than business jets, they are soon to be out of aerospace. Cest la vie.

Lightsaber
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c933103
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:21 am

Revelation wrote:
Noshow wrote:
If Airbus manages to built up the new A220 final assembly line in Mobile fast and fill it with "converts" like mabye Southwest, it might see a long and healthy future.

That kind of market analysis is the same kind that got the C Series into so much trouble that it caused billions of losses that forced the shareholders to sell off a majority stake for $1.

"Build it and they shall come" is not a great business strategy.

The problem is that, do they have enough resources to wait till orders come? It's not like the program have not enough order to sustain and they have to produce white tails without takers - That's the opposite of problems they face
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:43 am

The problem is the limited future for any “regional” jets—topup orders are it for the foreseeable future and economics will probably dictate shrinking the fleet in service now. I see, in the US, carriers upgauge or drop service to present RJ stations.
 
XT6Wagon
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:58 am

Revelation wrote:
Noshow wrote:
If Airbus manages to built up the new A220 final assembly line in Mobile fast and fill it with "converts" like mabye Southwest, it might see a long and healthy future.

That kind of market analysis is the same kind that got the C Series into so much trouble that it caused billions of losses that forced the shareholders to sell off a majority stake for $1.

"Build it and they shall come" is not a great business strategy.


You mean pay airbus billions to try and save the slice they have left.

God they only wish they sold it for a dollar.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:33 am

clipperlondon wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
Noshow wrote:
If Airbus manages to built up the new A220 final assembly line in Mobile fast and fill it with "converts" like mabye Southwest, it might see a long and healthy future.

The aircraft could see a healthy future while being the downfall is the company that created it.

BBD appears to be getting out of the commercial air business at this point, and their rail division could certainly have used the reasources that went into the C-Series.


Derby (UK) alone has 1611 rail vehicles on order including the Elizabeth Line in London.


I think they also hold the contract for the future Southwestern Railway (old South West Trains) too.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:38 am

Noshow wrote:
If Airbus manages to built up the new A220 final assembly line in Mobile fast and fill it with "converts" like mabye Southwest, it might see a long and healthy future.


The Aircraft and Airs that is. If it does take off (I believe that it will...), Airbus will swap for the rest of the shares on the Project and BBD will be gone from the commercial aircraft division.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:16 am

Super80Fan wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
The legend of BBD and the CSeries will go down in history as an epic business fail, and its really quite a shame.
No matter how good the product, or well envisioned the market could be, things went horribly wrong for BBD and they still can't get it on track. Its such a shame - they really hung out their own company and countries pride.


C-Series yes, A220 no. Airbus is the real winner here.

And Boeing as well.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:53 am

c933103 wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
The legend of BBD and the CSeries will go down in history as an epic business fail, and its really quite a shame.
No matter how good the product, or well envisioned the market could be, things went horribly wrong for BBD and they still can't get it on track. Its such a shame - they really hung out their own company and countries pride.

Or to put in another way, it just show how many resources it need to compete with established aircraft developers nowadays


To compete with the big 2, Bombardier had to get everything right with CSeries and they got far too many things wrong (including decisions outside the program).

Strategic level
1. Lear85 - siphoned resources (cash and engineering) away from CSeries at a crucial stage.
2. Fuel prices - outside BBDs control, but the crash in 2008 and subsequent collapse in oil prices didn't help sell an aircraft that was designed for an envisaged $200+/barrel prices.
3. Global7000 - while necessary for the company, the two programs should not have been run simultaneously - the company isn't big enough for that.
Program level
4. Composite wing - not necessary for the aircraft range and has increased build cost.
5. Usual BBD supplier selection quandary. Selecting the cheapest design/build supplier up front rarely results in the cheapest route to a quality solution.

There were of course loads of missteps in detail design along the way, but these happen on all programs. BBD with a lack of recent learned experience probably made more mistakes than A or B, but these weren't things that fatally wounded the program.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:47 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Strategic level
1. Lear85 - siphoned resources (cash and engineering) away from CSeries at a crucial stage.
2. Fuel prices - outside BBDs control, but the crash in 2008 and subsequent collapse in oil prices didn't help sell an aircraft that was designed for an envisaged $200+/barrel prices.
3. Global7000 - while necessary for the company, the two programs should not have been run simultaneously - the company isn't big enough for that.
Program level
4. Composite wing - not necessary for the aircraft range and has increased build cost.
5. Usual BBD supplier selection quandary. Selecting the cheapest design/build supplier up front rarely results in the cheapest route to a quality solution.


I would perhaps add one more; the rather extreme predatory behavior of the duopoly – particularly from Boeing. (Offering 737-7s @$22M, hypocrite dumping complaint etc. ) Some Boeing executives openly declared they would not do the same mistake again in letting in a new entrant - as they did with Airbus decades ago. --> They openly said they were on a mission to destroy BBD and the CSeries. The CSeries business case just went from marginal to suddenly totally vaporised. Sales just dried up. No airlines would want to buy an orphan aircraft - convinced the program would eventually be cancelled, or of BBD's bankruptcy.

Somehow, Embraer’s E190/195E2s did not face the same predatory reception. Probably because it could not be easily extended to threaten the 737 Max 8. (Or because they were already buddy - buddy with Boeing?)

You basically need an outfit of about 20 times the financial capacity of BBD's to crack this duopoly. From the moment Boeing/Airbus saw the CSeries as an eventual threat to their bread and butter 737/A320 programs, Bombardier HAS NO CHANCES WHATSOEVER to profitably market the CSeries - ever.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:50 pm

I guess that the worst case scenario for BBD would be having to sell off the LearJet program.
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c933103
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:42 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
The legend of BBD and the CSeries will go down in history as an epic business fail, and its really quite a shame.
No matter how good the product, or well envisioned the market could be, things went horribly wrong for BBD and they still can't get it on track. Its such a shame - they really hung out their own company and countries pride.

Or to put in another way, it just show how many resources it need to compete with established aircraft developers nowadays


To compete with the big 2, Bombardier had to get everything right with CSeries and they got far too many things wrong (including decisions outside the program).

Strategic level
1. Lear85 - siphoned resources (cash and engineering) away from CSeries at a crucial stage.
2. Fuel prices - outside BBDs control, but the crash in 2008 and subsequent collapse in oil prices didn't help sell an aircraft that was designed for an envisaged $200+/barrel prices.
3. Global7000 - while necessary for the company, the two programs should not have been run simultaneously - the company isn't big enough for that.
Program level
4. Composite wing - not necessary for the aircraft range and has increased build cost.
5. Usual BBD supplier selection quandary. Selecting the cheapest design/build supplier up front rarely results in the cheapest route to a quality solution.

There were of course loads of missteps in detail design along the way, but these happen on all programs. BBD with a lack of recent learned experience probably made more mistakes than A or B, but these weren't things that fatally wounded the program.

Emmm. does all that really matter? These decisions might have inflated the cost and prolonged the development time, but it's mot like the company is otherwise in a healthy financial state to compete with Airbus or Boeing to find customers.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:51 am

c933103 wrote:
Emmm. does all that really matter? These decisions might have inflated the cost and prolonged the development time, but it's mot like the company is otherwise in a healthy financial state to compete with Airbus or Boeing to find customers.


Well Lear85 was 2-3 billion USD just flushed down the toilet. Not one single bit of learned knowledge from Lear85 was able to be carried over to CSeries.

Global 7000 has cost around 2 billion as well.

Those are massive amounts for a company the size of BBD to swallow (although Global will generate a positive return - it certainly generated a cashflow issue impacting on other areas).
 
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FabDiva
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:00 am

clipperlondon wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
Noshow wrote:
If Airbus manages to built up the new A220 final assembly line in Mobile fast and fill it with "converts" like mabye Southwest, it might see a long and healthy future.

The aircraft could see a healthy future while being the downfall is the company that created it.

BBD appears to be getting out of the commercial air business at this point, and their rail division could certainly have used the reasources that went into the C-Series.


Derby (UK) alone has 1611 rail vehicles on order including the Elizabeth Line in London.


They may have, but are having severe issues with delivering them. Of the current orders....

  • The Eliz Line fleet is horrendously unreliable despite only working simple shuttles at the ends of the route prior to the tunnel opening.
  • The London Overground fleet is 18 months late and is still not allowed out without a rescue locomotive following.
  • The Greater Anglia fleet was supposed to be entering service around now, but only made it's first low speed powered run at the factory test track in the last week. Optimistic Estimates are now EIS in early 2020.

Transport for London who have been a very loyal customer of late are sufficiently annoyed that they have chosen Siemens for the new tube order.
 
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FabDiva
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu May 02, 2019 10:33 am

Bombardier have placed their Northern Ireland and Morroco based Aerostructures division up for sale

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-48130991

The aerospace firm, Bombardier, is putting its Belfast operation up for sale as part of a reorganisation of the business.

The company is selling its entire aerostructures operations which also has factories in Morocco.

The Canadian aircraft manufacturer employs about 4,000 people across several locations in Northern Ireland.

The company said it would be working closely with employees and unions, through any future transition period.

In a statement, Bombardier announced the "strategic formation of Bombardier Aviation, consolidating all aerospace assets into a single, streamlined and fully integrated business".

"As a result, Bombardier will pursue the divestiture of its Belfast and Morocco aerostructures businesses."

The statement added: "Our sites in Belfast and Morocco have seen a significant increase in work from other global customers in recent years.

"We are recognised as a global leader in aerostructures, with unique end-to-end capabilities - through design and development, testing and manufacture, to after-market support."

It said Bombardier was committed to finding the right buyer, adding "one that will operate responsibly and help us achieve our full growth potential".

"There are no new workforce announcements as a result of this decision, but our management team will continue to drive ongoing transformation initiatives to improve productivity and increase our competitiveness, to give more weight to our unique value proposition to potential buyers."

 
Babyshark
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Re: Bombardier continues to disappoint

Thu May 02, 2019 10:56 am

FlyHappy wrote:
The legend of BBD and the CSeries will go down in history as an epic business fail, and its really quite a shame.
No matter how good the product, or well envisioned the market could be, things went horribly wrong for BBD and they still can't get it on track. Its such a shame - they really hung out their own company and countries pride.


My take on the CSeries is BBD set out to build a better E190 for a market that wasnt asking for a better E190. They forced it on a market that didnt have any pain about finding aircraft to meet their demands.

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