User avatar
Mortyman
Topic Author
Posts: 5685
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:28 am

SAS Swedish pilot union is on strike and it seems like Norwegian and Danish pilot unions follow

https://www.sasgroup.net/en/the-swedish ... on-strike/
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Topic Author
Posts: 5685
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:09 am

1400 pilots alltogether in Norway, Denmark and Sweden has gone on strike. Already many cancellations.

https://www.nrk.no/norge/sas-flygerne-g ... 1.14528009

I Guess Norwegian will step in and offer their services instead ?
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23634
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:13 am

Strike notice was issued back in February and talks went up to the last day without results.

In total 4 pilots unions are striking though only about 70% of flights are effected as units like SAS Ireland and Spain crews along with regional ops are not involved.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Topic Author
Posts: 5685
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:41 am

Apparently they want 13 % salary increase and according to the manager of the pilot association in SAS Norway, the party also entered negotiations with a requirement to get approximately the same agreement as the competitors Norwegian, Ryanair or EasyJet. This is about how a pilot can plan his or her life and ensure predictability so that one can have a private life that works with the job

I don't know if this is the demands in Norway only or if the Danes and Swedes has the same demands.


13 % sounds like a lot ... ?
 
User avatar
CPHFF
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:03 am

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:33 am

674 Flights canceled today (Friday). Flights flown by subcontracted airlines (about 30%) are not affected.

According to Swedish media, SAS offered the Swedish pilots a 3 year deal, with a 2.3% salary increase per year. SAS also promised "to look in to" improving the roster scheduling.

Funny situation in Scandinavia. Norwegian trying to get pilot salary down to SK level. SK pilots trying to get their salary up to Norwegian level.............
Unable to update my profife photo since 2014
 
bennett123
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:15 am

What are the chances of this being resolved quickly.
 
Someone83
Posts: 4269
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:12 am

bennett123 wrote:
What are the chances of this being resolved quickly.


As most flights now are grounded, these strikes are usually over within 1 to 4 days
 
lazyme
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:57 am

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:13 am

According to Swedish new media SAS pilots is not striking just because of comparably low salaries, but also because their schedule might require them to work 7 weekends in a row, and often on short notice.
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3588
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:23 am

Heard on P4 Stockholm just now a lady talking about scope clauses. Too many contractors.
Anyway hope they get it sorted.
I have been flying SAS in Europe since 1971, and am now booked on my first SAS longhaul flight in 2 weeks time to ORD.
 
Mangs
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:09 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:45 am

Mortyman wrote:
Apparently they want 13 % salary increase and according to the manager of the pilot association in SAS Norway, the party also entered negotiations with a requirement to get approximately the same agreement as the competitors Norwegian, Ryanair or EasyJet. This is about how a pilot can plan his or her life and ensure predictability so that one can have a private life that works with the job

I don't know if this is the demands in Norway only or if the Danes and Swedes has the same demands.


13 % sounds like a lot ... ?



They don't want a ridiculous amount. They just want to be paid the market average for a pilot job in the same geographical area, do you think that's to much to ask?

And they would like more stable rosters. The suggestion I guess is 5-4 like ryan and norwegian short haul has. They would still be producing 750-900h block as they normally do.
 
YIMBY
Posts: 598
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:04 am

Mangs wrote:
13 % sounds like a lot ... ?

They don't want a ridiculous amount. They just want to be paid the market average for a pilot job in the same geographical area, do you think that's to much to ask?


It is too much to ask because it is multiple times of average salary in the same geographical area.

And there is no "market average". The salaries are not defined by market but by strikes.
 
happytraveller
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:35 am

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:03 am

And in the news, the opposition (Norwegian Air) has increased its prices for the next few days, and is also removing a lot of flexibility to cancel tickets.

https://www.newsinenglish.no/2019/04/25 ... air-fares/

That is sure to lose Norwegian customer goodwill. Another nail in the coffin. Short term gain but long term loss.

Jerry
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Topic Author
Posts: 5685
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:09 am

happytraveller wrote:
And in the news, the opposition (Norwegian Air) has increased its prices for the next few days, and is also removing a lot of flexibility to cancel tickets.

https://www.newsinenglish.no/2019/04/25 ... air-fares/

That is sure to lose Norwegian customer goodwill. Another nail in the coffin. Short term gain but long term loss.

Jerry



Not really.
 
User avatar
SASViking
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:06 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:28 am

Mortyman wrote:
happytraveller wrote:
And in the news, the opposition (Norwegian Air) has increased its prices for the next few days, and is also removing a lot of flexibility to cancel tickets.

https://www.newsinenglish.no/2019/04/25 ... air-fares/

That is sure to lose Norwegian customer goodwill. Another nail in the coffin. Short term gain but long term loss.

Jerry



Not really.

Might not in Norway, but have a look in the medias, both from Denmark and Sweden. There's an absolute outcry towards Norwegian also on facebook, twitter etc. where the articles about it are shared.
Usually when an airline go bankrupt or go on a strike, other airlines try to help the other passengers. They offer special fares and often also extra capacity on some flights. They don't raise their prices by several 100%.
What Norwegian is doing, is trying to save their own arse by exploiting a tragic situation for the passengers. Thankfully SAS is in *A so they can get help from LH, LX, OS, LO etc. So they don't have to rely on Norwegian. But I'm not surprised about Norwegians behaviour, that just confirms how much of a classless airline they are
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8669
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:43 am

So no one believes that this is a deliberate form of economic assistance to Norwegian?
I mean salaries in geographic regions being on par, scope - who ever heard of that in Europe -. Norwegian has been flying through some economic difficulties, this is sure to help them if they properly take advantage of the situation, raising fares is the right thing to do since none of the loyal SAS clients who switch to them because of the strike will be flying with them once the strike was over, after all, they would have already done so right? Lets also remember that Norwegian will also have increased cost since they may have to run extra sections, push their a/c harder, defer maintenance, more staff pay for overtimes, it not as if they are / were flying around with so much extra capacity that they can just pick up the slack, it is only fair that they pass on the cost to the SAS clients.

As it relates to helping pax out, this is not an airline which has failed because of economic problems, this is an airline who is trying to not pay its staff a reasonable wage, I know in the USA they use the term SCAB, so why would anyone want Norwegian to assist management in keeping the hard working employees of SAS in a bad working situation? By increasing prices, Norwegian in addition to helping itself is raising pressure on the SAS management to do the right thing since the loyal SAS clients will be beating the war drums to get this resolved sooner rather than later.
Just a thought.
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Topic Author
Posts: 5685
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:51 am

SASViking wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
happytraveller wrote:
And in the news, the opposition (Norwegian Air) has increased its prices for the next few days, and is also removing a lot of flexibility to cancel tickets.

https://www.newsinenglish.no/2019/04/25 ... air-fares/

That is sure to lose Norwegian customer goodwill. Another nail in the coffin. Short term gain but long term loss.

Jerry



Not really.

Might not in Norway, but have a look in the medias, both from Denmark and Sweden. There's an absolute outcry towards Norwegian also on facebook, twitter etc. where the articles about it are shared.
Usually when an airline go bankrupt or go on a strike, other airlines try to help the other passengers. They offer special fares and often also extra capacity on some flights. They don't raise their prices by several 100%.
What Norwegian is doing, is trying to save their own arse by exploiting a tragic situation for the passengers. Thankfully SAS is in *A so they can get help from LH, LX, OS, LO etc. So they don't have to rely on Norwegian. But I'm not surprised about Norwegians behaviour, that just confirms how much of a classless airline they are


Oh please.

Most likely they don't have capacity

Norwegian has helped before With lower prices etc when Monarch had problems and other airlines.

There was never an outcry from you Danes when SAS had monopoly in Norway and demanded triple or even 6 times on certain routes in Norway and you were all to happy when the Norwegian part of SAS was the only one that had a surpluss and had to cover the Danish and Swedish part of SAS debts. We did it for 20 years atleast.

Yes we Norwegians have tick skin because we have been used to the monopoly of SAS and the way they used to use their power to oust all competition when they were a heavely state sub airline.


SAS would have done the same thing as Norwegian if it was the other way around.
 
happytraveller
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:35 am

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:17 pm

Out of interest, I just looked to see what Norwegian Airline is charging today for the 418 km trip from Oslo to Stockholm, a popular route. Now that SAS is on strike, the price is crazy.....

8231 NOK for a seat today. That is 861 euros, and baggage will cost you extra. Absolutely CRAZY price for a 418km trip on a 737.

I am sure that passengers will not love Norwegian Air for charging these sorts of prices just because the competition is on strike.

I know what I would do with 861 euros, and it would not be going on a ticket for a 418km trip, economy class.

Jerry
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2157
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:42 pm

happytraveller wrote:
Out of interest, I just looked to see what Norwegian Airline is charging today for the 418 km trip from Oslo to Stockholm, a popular route. Now that SAS is on strike, the price is crazy.....

8231 NOK for a seat today. That is 861 euros, and baggage will cost you extra. Absolutely CRAZY price for a 418km trip on a 737.

I am sure that passengers will not love Norwegian Air for charging these sorts of prices just because the competition is on strike.

I know what I would do with 861 euros, and it would not be going on a ticket for a 418km trip, economy class.

Jerry


That is definately taking advantage of a bad situation for the traveling public. There's no way to defend this practice.

Just because you suddenly have a monopoly because of a strike, you don't have to charge 10 times the normal price. I could understand 2 or 3 times. But not 10.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:48 pm

YIMBY wrote:
Mangs wrote:
13 % sounds like a lot ... ?

They don't want a ridiculous amount. They just want to be paid the market average for a pilot job in the same geographical area, do you think that's to much to ask?


It is too much to ask because it is multiple times of average salary in the same geographical area.


But they're not doing an "average" job so they should expect something quite different to the "average" salary.
 
happytraveller
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:35 am

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:12 pm

As a lot of people have found out the hard way, many jobs can be done by a computer/robot now, so perhaps the pilots should think twice before demanding large salary increases for a job that is POSSIBLE to be carried out by a computer.

Flight decks on many large a/c went down from 3 crew to 2 crew, and with technology it is possible to reduce this further. And if oil prices return to previous levels then the golden times for airlines may be over. Striking by the pilots may not be smart move.

Jerry
 
BA777FO
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:46 pm

happytraveller wrote:
As a lot of people have found out the hard way, many jobs can be done by a computer/robot now, so perhaps the pilots should think twice before demanding large salary increases for a job that is POSSIBLE to be carried out by a computer.

Flight decks on many large a/c went down from 3 crew to 2 crew, and with technology it is possible to reduce this further. And if oil prices return to previous levels then the golden times for airlines may be over. Striking by the pilots may not be smart move.

Jerry


With new deliveries and aircraft yet to be certified requiring 2 pilots, and no FTL scheme allowing a reduction in crew numbers, I reckon the pilots will be alright for a while.

There are some airlines where pilots have given up so much in return for nothing and are paid below comparable pilots at other airlines. It's understandable they'd want something approaching parity.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12152
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:25 pm

Mortyman wrote:
happytraveller wrote:
And in the news, the opposition (Norwegian Air) has increased its prices for the next few days, and is also removing a lot of flexibility to cancel tickets.

https://www.newsinenglish.no/2019/04/25 ... air-fares/

That is sure to lose Norwegian customer goodwill. Another nail in the coffin. Short term gain but long term loss.

Jerry



Not really.


Yes really.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12152
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:30 pm

Mortyman wrote:
SASViking wrote:
Mortyman wrote:


Not really.

Might not in Norway, but have a look in the medias, both from Denmark and Sweden. There's an absolute outcry towards Norwegian also on facebook, twitter etc. where the articles about it are shared.
Usually when an airline go bankrupt or go on a strike, other airlines try to help the other passengers. They offer special fares and often also extra capacity on some flights. They don't raise their prices by several 100%.
What Norwegian is doing, is trying to save their own arse by exploiting a tragic situation for the passengers. Thankfully SAS is in *A so they can get help from LH, LX, OS, LO etc. So they don't have to rely on Norwegian. But I'm not surprised about Norwegians behaviour, that just confirms how much of a classless airline they are


Oh please.

Most likely they don't have capacity

Norwegian has helped before With lower prices etc when Monarch had problems and other airlines.

There was never an outcry from you Danes when SAS had monopoly in Norway and demanded triple or even 6 times on certain routes in Norway and you were all to happy when the Norwegian part of SAS was the only one that had a surpluss and had to cover the Danish and Swedish part of SAS debts. We did it for 20 years atleast.

Yes we Norwegians have tick skin because we have been used to the monopoly of SAS and the way they used to use their power to oust all competition when they were a heavely state sub airline.


SAS would have done the same thing as Norwegian if it was the other way around.


I don’t think they would have.

I’m flying to London tomorrow, I’m on WF from Molde to Bergen, Cityjet from BErgen to Oslo and SAS Ireland from Oslo to London, all for 7k nok return SAS+, it’s nearly 11k nok on Norwegian.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12152
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:39 pm

Mortyman wrote:
SASViking wrote:
Mortyman wrote:


Not really.

Might not in Norway, but have a look in the medias, both from Denmark and Sweden. There's an absolute outcry towards Norwegian also on facebook, twitter etc. where the articles about it are shared.
Usually when an airline go bankrupt or go on a strike, other airlines try to help the other passengers. They offer special fares and often also extra capacity on some flights. They don't raise their prices by several 100%.
What Norwegian is doing, is trying to save their own arse by exploiting a tragic situation for the passengers. Thankfully SAS is in *A so they can get help from LH, LX, OS, LO etc. So they don't have to rely on Norwegian. But I'm not surprised about Norwegians behaviour, that just confirms how much of a classless airline they are


Oh please.

Most likely they don't have capacity

Norwegian has helped before With lower prices etc when Monarch had problems and other airlines.

There was never an outcry from you Danes when SAS had monopoly in Norway and demanded triple or even 6 times on certain routes in Norway and you were all to happy when the Norwegian part of SAS was the only one that had a surpluss and had to cover the Danish and Swedish part of SAS debts. We did it for 20 years atleast.

Yes we Norwegians have tick skin because we have been used to the monopoly of SAS and the way they used to use their power to oust all competition when they were a heavely state sub airline.


SAS would have done the same thing as Norwegian if it was the other way around.


Come on SAS were never in a monopoly position for very long. For a very long time Braathens were pretty decent competition.
 
Jetty
Posts: 926
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: SAS on strikes

Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:06 pm

happytraveller wrote:
Out of interest, I just looked to see what Norwegian Airline is charging today for the 418 km trip from Oslo to Stockholm, a popular route. Now that SAS is on strike, the price is crazy.....

8231 NOK for a seat today. That is 861 euros, and baggage will cost you extra. Absolutely CRAZY price for a 418km trip on a 737.

I am sure that passengers will not love Norwegian Air for charging these sorts of prices just because the competition is on strike.

I know what I would do with 861 euros, and it would not be going on a ticket for a 418km trip, economy class.

Jerry

It’s not like Norwegian hit a red button to increase prices fivefold because SAS is striking. Norwegian didn’t increase prices because of the strike, they increased prices because there is a lot of demand. Pricing is highly automated and no human has to intervene to make this happen.
 
144modeller
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:52 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:33 pm

Here in the UK, we too use the term 'scab' to insult someone who carries on working when others are on strike. By increasing prices, Norwegian are discouraging passengers from travelling, so making the strike more effective. Even if that was not their intention, SAS pilots will be thanking them, and not criticising Norwegian's crews for strikebreaking.
 
User avatar
fallap
Posts: 976
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:36 am

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:35 pm

happytraveller wrote:
Out of interest, I just looked to see what Norwegian Airline is charging today for the 418 km trip from Oslo to Stockholm, a popular route. Now that SAS is on strike, the price is crazy.....

8231 NOK for a seat today. That is 861 euros, and baggage will cost you extra. Absolutely CRAZY price for a 418km trip on a 737.

I am sure that passengers will not love Norwegian Air for charging these sorts of prices just because the competition is on strike.

I know what I would do with 861 euros, and it would not be going on a ticket for a 418km trip, economy class.

Jerry


Well, that is certainly one way to stall their impending bankruptcy...
Ex grease monkey buried head to toe inside an F-16M
Now studying Political Science
 
greendot
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:47 pm

happytraveller wrote:
As a lot of people have found out the hard way, many jobs can be done by a computer/robot now, so perhaps the pilots should think twice before demanding large salary increases for a job that is POSSIBLE to be carried out by a computer.

Flight decks on many large a/c went down from 3 crew to 2 crew, and with technology it is possible to reduce this further. And if oil prices return to previous levels then the golden times for airlines may be over. Striking by the pilots may not be smart move.

Jerry


Jerry, pilots will never have to think twice about this, unless androids are made who can think as well as humans.

Firstly, you greatly misunderstand aviation. Aviation is all about finding a solution in an imperfect world. Pilots always negotiate limited and imperfect input data to make decisions. For example, you cannot just rely on the colors seen on weather radar. Radar can suffer from various 'undetected' malfunctions including attenuation, which masks bigger storms behind one significant cell. Radar also does not reliably demonstrate the presence of hail, severe turbulence, or lightning. The Radar on my aircraft does show hail, turbulence, and lightning but it is NOT reliable by any stretch. It supposedly even subtracts out terrain at low altitudes to only display weather, but in practice it does a horrible job. Radar is not a 100% reliable system and LOTS of interpretation and use of unconventional wisdom to properly utilize. If you were writing software, do you simply code your system to avoid anything "red" on the radar?

Secondly, you assume that the technological systems that fly the airplane can ever be equal to a human. Humans operate without electrical power. They operate in times of severe electromagnetic interference. They are immune from cyberattacks. Humans are not limited by what they are programmed to do. Even if all aircraft sensors fail, a human pilot can still land an aircraft. If a birdstrike takes out most aircraft electronics, a human can still land an aircraft. Etc, etc, etc....

The basic problem with assuming a technological only solution is that the technology will never be implemented to its theoretical limits. Look at the recent 737Max incidents. Why is something as simple as the MCAS system so flawed? It's because it costs more to properly engineer a 3 sensor system. Personally, I wouldn't even bet my life on a 3 sensor system because it assumes that all 3 sensors don't have the same flaw, which we saw happen over the Atlantic. Quite simply, no company will spend 5000000% more to get a 2% decrease in the probability of failure. This has been the history of the nuclear industry, the medical industry, and especially government (recall the levies in New Orleans not designed in the 1 in 1000 yr storm). So, engineers will not be allowed to design a system (hardware & software) that is anywhere near as robust as a human. Like it or not, insurance companies and governments place a cost to each human life. That's why you don't get trillions in payouts from every death involving aircraft. At some point, the bean counters will rationalize an inferior technological system using statistics such as "1 in 1,000,000,000,000 chance" or "it's never happened before". Quite simply, having 2 human pilots, is significantly cheaper. At least with pilot error, you don't have to ground an entire fleet.

I'm all for continuing to improve aircraft systems. It helps me greatly to do my job. However, the technology does not make decisions, and if it does, it makes really bad ones without remorse. You should also know that I'm a real engineer, and I write real software, even today. I'm not speaking as a layman. I'm a professional engineer (Master's degree) and an airline pilot. So if you want to discuss the shortcomings of procedural, object oriented, and recursive computer languages, I can.

Pilot salaries must increase and they must improve quality of life. Airlines are typically run by MBA types that are no better than a McDonald's manager for the most part. They don't have sufficient knowledge to understand the business they are overseeing. The same problem is happening in the medical sector with beaurocrats and administrators dictating pricing to doctors. The result is that elite doctors are leaving the profession as well as beaurocratic substitutions such as replacing PhDs with Physician Assistants (PAs). So the immediate instinct of MBAs is to lower salaries in order to show a better bottom line, at the immediate cost of quality of life, and with the long term effect of getting less than the best people applying for the job. Pilot salaries, adjusted for inflation, are nowhere near what they used to be. This needs to be fixed.
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3588
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:54 pm

Part 13del
scope - who ever heard of that in Europe


British Airways has scope clauses. Why do you think the E190 at LCY have 98 seats?. There is a scope clause that limits 100seaters at London to Mainline pilots.
There is also rules that prevent non BA pilots working at LHR. (but BALPA is quite flexible in emergencies.).
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Topic Author
Posts: 5685
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:02 pm

More than 100,000 passengers are hit by the strike Friday and Saturday. It is still uncertain what happens on Sunday.

SAS director Rickard Gustafson says Norway is the largest of the countries in which they operate, in number of passengers.

He urges the pilots to return to the negotiating table.

- SAS is willing to take up the negotiations at any time. I hope the pilot associations, which unfortunately left the negotiations, come back again, so we can sit down and have a constructive dialogue, "says Gustafson.

He says it is absolutely reasonable that the pilots should have good working conditions.

- But, we cannot be immune to the outside world that we fly and work in. We see that companies that do not have the ability to change are going under. If SAS is not competitive, then it does not work, says Gustafson.


https://www.nrk.no/nyheter/sas-sjefen-b ... 1.14529371
 
YIMBY
Posts: 598
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:52 pm

BA777FO wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
Mangs wrote:

They don't want a ridiculous amount. They just want to be paid the market average for a pilot job in the same geographical area, do you think that's to much to ask?


It is too much to ask because it is multiple times of average salary in the same geographical area.


But they're not doing an "average" job so they should expect something quite different to the "average" salary.


No, it is not average: two years in flight academy (vocational school) is less than average education. Compare e.g. school teacher who has to study 5 years in a university and has much more stress and responsibility, earning less than a flight attendant.
 
jhz94
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:59 am

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:07 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
Heard on P4 Stockholm just now a lady talking about scope clauses. Too many contractors.
Anyway hope they get it sorted.


I guess you are right. I know that there has been a lot of anger about the social-dumping that SK has permitted by using CityJet, Nordica and most importantly SAS Ireland/SAIL. One could at least demand that the crews operating the planes should have pensions on par with the Scandinavians, but that it not the reality.
Also Aftonbladet, the largest Swedish newspaper write about the issue with SAS Ireland and the rosters. https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/RR ... egentligen (in Swedish).
Did you know that you can run diesel cars on Jet A1?
 
greendot
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:14 pm

YIMBY wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
YIMBY wrote:

It is too much to ask because it is multiple times of average salary in the same geographical area.


But they're not doing an "average" job so they should expect something quite different to the "average" salary.


No, it is not average: two years in flight academy (vocational school) is less than average education. Compare e.g. school teacher who has to study 5 years in a university and has much more stress and responsibility, earning less than a flight attendant.


2 years? That barely qualifies you to fly a crop duster!

While I do agree that teachers should get significantly more than a flight attendant, there is no way a pilot should be making anywhere near what a teacher makes.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2813
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:25 pm

YIMBY wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
YIMBY wrote:

It is too much to ask because it is multiple times of average salary in the same geographical area.


But they're not doing an "average" job so they should expect something quite different to the "average" salary.


No, it is not average: two years in flight academy (vocational school) is less than average education. Compare e.g. school teacher who has to study 5 years in a university and has much more stress and responsibility, earning less than a flight attendant.


If you absolutely must compare it like that:

Teachers' education is entirely funded by the state. Most pilots must fund it out of own pocket, through funds that were taxed as they were earned.

An integrated ATP(A) course takes 2 years, full time. Becoming a teacher takes 4 years (out of high school), but being friends of several, I can attest that they had a much more relaxed study period.

The start wage for a fully trained public school teacher in Denmark is 27.600 DKK. As of March 2015, a flight attendant at SAS began at 19.400 DKK, and took 10 years to reach 30.000 DKK.

https://www.dagens.dk/business/folkeskolelaerer-loen
https://ekstrabladet.dk/nyheder/samfund ... se/5464350

BTW, university is not a requirement for school teachers around these parts.

Edit:
And just to add in pilots, a zero-hour FO at Nordica will earn around 13.000 DKK, while at CityJet that figure is about 21.500 DKK.
 
User avatar
AAR
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:58 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:04 pm

An air hostess is not an education it is leasons in first aid - fire - safety - rescue...then many airliners want cabin crew who speaks several languages, many have an education as a chef or servant.

Pilots and cabin crews are paid extra when being away from home add pension on top.
 
A320NK
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:52 am

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:21 pm

If one has a ticket on SAS and the flight is cancelled due to the strike, does SAS reaccommodate on other carriers (such as Norwegian)? If it is the case, then it punishes the airline by paying the sky high prices
 
A320NK
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:52 am

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:23 pm

If one has a ticket on SAS and the flight is cancelled due to the strike, does SAS reaccommodate on other carriers (such as Norwegian)? If it is the case, then it punishes the airline by paying the sky high prices
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2813
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:34 pm

AAR wrote:
Pilots and cabin crews are paid extra when being away from home add pension on top.


But according to Danish law, they must be away for at least 24 hours in order to get per diems. Good luck getting those on a CRJ or ATR, or even the A320. Airlines have become pretty good at avoiding per diems through scheduling.
 
Someone83
Posts: 4269
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:47 pm

VSMUT wrote:
AAR wrote:
Pilots and cabin crews are paid extra when being away from home add pension on top.


But according to Danish law, they must be away for at least 24 hours in order to get per diems. Good luck getting those on a CRJ or ATR, or even the A320. Airlines have become pretty good at avoiding per diems through scheduling.


In Norway, SAS has a lot of crew on night stops, which are all entitled to per diems
 
User avatar
SASViking
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:06 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:55 am

A320NK wrote:
If one has a ticket on SAS and the flight is cancelled due to the strike, does SAS reaccommodate on other carriers (such as Norwegian)? If it is the case, then it punishes the airline by paying the sky high prices

Yes they do, that's an EU law, but I'm sure they would've done it regardless. They use their *A partners as much as possible, but if they can't reaccommodate to other *A airlines they have to reaccommodate to others, they frequently use Virgin Atlantic, Finnair and KLM, but can be forced to use airlines such as Norwegian. SAS usually go really far when it come to help finding connections. If no other connections are available on the same day, they pay for accommadation, meals etc. If no connections are available what so ever, they hire coaches if the destination is relatively close by. This is not only the case regarding strikes, but also cancellations, overbookings, missed connections etc.
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
User avatar
SASViking
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:06 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:54 am

Mortyman wrote:
SASViking wrote:
Mortyman wrote:


Not really.

Might not in Norway, but have a look in the medias, both from Denmark and Sweden. There's an absolute outcry towards Norwegian also on facebook, twitter etc. where the articles about it are shared.
Usually when an airline go bankrupt or go on a strike, other airlines try to help the other passengers. They offer special fares and often also extra capacity on some flights. They don't raise their prices by several 100%.
What Norwegian is doing, is trying to save their own arse by exploiting a tragic situation for the passengers. Thankfully SAS is in *A so they can get help from LH, LX, OS, LO etc. So they don't have to rely on Norwegian. But I'm not surprised about Norwegians behaviour, that just confirms how much of a classless airline they are


Oh please.

Most likely they don't have capacity

Norwegian has helped before With lower prices etc when Monarch had problems and other airlines.

There was never an outcry from you Danes when SAS had monopoly in Norway and demanded triple or even 6 times on certain routes in Norway and you were all to happy when the Norwegian part of SAS was the only one that had a surpluss and had to cover the Danish and Swedish part of SAS debts. We did it for 20 years atleast.

Yes we Norwegians have tick skin because we have been used to the monopoly of SAS and the way they used to use their power to oust all competition when they were a heavely state sub airline.


SAS would have done the same thing as Norwegian if it was the other way around.


Oh please... :roll:

To be a fan of an airline is one thing, that's fair. But to be completely biased is another.

SAS never really had monopoly in Norway, remember Braathens? No? Or do they not count? State owned v. privately owned. They only merged after competition from others such as Color Air. They haven't had monopoly in Denmark or Sweden either for that matter, not in modern times anyway.
Also I don't think you are speaking on behalf of Norwegians in general. "Us norwegians have thick skin because we have been used to the monopoly of SAS" C'mon!
SAS is giving you Norwegians, like the rest of us, a service, they fly frequently to most destinations. They also fly the unattractive flights. Be grateful for that! Norwegian only operates the attractive flights to attractive destinations. Oddly enough, Norwegian aren't that much cheaper than SAS, if cheaper at all. It's not unusual for me looking for flights that SAS are cheaper than Norwegian, also on domestic flights in Norway. Sadly I think you a slightly naive believing in Norwegians propaganda.
Also don't forget that it was us Danes that saved SAS a few years ago. Without that, all of Scandinavia would be f***ed. Who should've taking over? It would've taken any airlines ages to step in if SAS had collapsed.

Regarding the rise in ticket prices.
I can guarantee that SAS wouldn't play dirty tricks like Norwegian. When airlines such as Sterling and Cimber Sterling collapsed, SAS offered heavily discounted fares to help stranded people, they also offered extra flights and capacity where possible. It's common practice for airlines to do that in cases of strikes or brankrupcies , at least for decent airlines with dignity. Even when the Danish State Railways strike, SAS offer cheap fares on CPH-AAL/AAR/BLL in order to help innocent stranded passengers. Norwegian are just robbing innocent people. It's a lot cheaper for passengers to get a taxi Copenhagen to places like Stockholm or Berlin than flying Norwegian, their prices are THAT high! CPH-SXF with Norwegian was roughly 10.000DKK pr. pax one way on Friday, a taxi is 6.499 in total for 4 pax. 6-7 hours in a high-end Mercedes with a driver, is cheaper than an hour on a cramped 737!
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2551
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: SAS on strikes

Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:39 am

Jetty wrote:
happytraveller wrote:
Out of interest, I just looked to see what Norwegian Airline is charging today for the 418 km trip from Oslo to Stockholm, a popular route. Now that SAS is on strike, the price is crazy.....

8231 NOK for a seat today. That is 861 euros, and baggage will cost you extra. Absolutely CRAZY price for a 418km trip on a 737.

I am sure that passengers will not love Norwegian Air for charging these sorts of prices just because the competition is on strike.

I know what I would do with 861 euros, and it would not be going on a ticket for a 418km trip, economy class.

Jerry

It’s not like Norwegian hit a red button to increase prices fivefold because SAS is striking. Norwegian didn’t increase prices because of the strike, they increased prices because there is a lot of demand. Pricing is highly automated and no human has to intervene to make this happen.

:checkmark: A sudden and unexpected major surge in demand with no additional capacity to absorb it = high prices. That's simply rational. Were fares to not adjust accordingly in that type of environment, there very likely wouldn't be ANY seats left for sale period.
 
trent768
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:32 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:29 am

I also think that the sudden price jump is not on purpose, it's just the booking engine doing its job properly! Because I remember reading here that during the big fire in Canada that requires the whole city to be evacuated, the same thing happened and the airlines overides the system to lower the price again.

SJ is also very expensive as of today. There's no sista minuten ticket for student anymore on the (not-so-fast) snabbtåg from Umeå to Stockholm in the last few days, with the average price at around 1100SEK and it's not even on a direct train. Even the night train is almost at 500 and I've never paid more than 400 eversince I moved to Sweden 2 years ago!
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Topic Author
Posts: 5685
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:45 am

Norwegian has managed to add a few extra domestic flights in Norway. SAS pilot union is thankful for the help.

https://www.dn.no/luftfart/norwegian/sa ... 2-1-593963
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Topic Author
Posts: 5685
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:56 am

SASViking wrote:
Also don't forget that it was us Danes that saved SAS a few years ago. Without that, all of Scandinavia would be f***ed. Who should've taking over? It would've taken any airlines ages to step in if SAS had collapsed.



i think it was pilots across the pilot network in SAS ( Norwegian, Danish and Swedish ) who saved SAS.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2813
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: SAS on strike

Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:51 am

I don't understand the animosity towards Norwegian. It is a private business, and all 3 Scandinavian states operate under a free-market principle. Flying is a privilege, not a right. Norwegian has zero responsibility for providing cheap tickets. Just because SAS did in the past, doesn't mean a precedent has been set that must be followed by all others. It's not as if Norwegian can afford to miss this opportunity either, they need the money.


Don't like it? I have some good news for Danish members then. General elections are coming up within 2 months. For all others, vote with your wallets.


144modeller wrote:
Here in the UK, we too use the term 'scab' to insult someone who carries on working when others are on strike. By increasing prices, Norwegian are discouraging passengers from travelling, so making the strike more effective. Even if that was not their intention, SAS pilots will be thanking them, and not criticising Norwegian's crews for strikebreaking.


It isn't strikebreaking when they are from a different organization or company, much less a rival company. A "scab" would be a SAS pilot going to work for SAS during the strike. A Norwegian pilot going to work to SAS could also be construed as a "scab", but a Norwegian pilot going to work for Norwegian is not.
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Topic Author
Posts: 5685
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:03 pm

SASViking wrote:
Mortyman wrote:


SAS would have done the same thing as Norwegian if it was the other way around.


Oh please... :roll:

To be a fan of an airline is one thing, that's fair. But to be completely biased is another.



First of all, considering your name here on the forum, I'm thinking you are a SAS fan. I think that is fine. SAS is a great airline with a long and pioneering history and I hope it continues.

Second, I'm not sure I would say I am a fan of Norwegian as such but rather the fact that someone have the guts and the spirit to grow something so big out of what used to be a shack in Norway and try to make it work. As we all know, the airline industry is most likely the thoughest industry in the world. So I am more fan of the guts, the spirit and the will power. It just so happens that it is Norwegian Air Shuttle. I would have loved for it if SAS had done it.
 
Mangs
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:09 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:38 pm

I bet Norwegian would have loved to, lets say, have 18 more 737 flying at the moment :-D
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Topic Author
Posts: 5685
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:30 pm

Apparently several SAS flights are flying with alot of empty seats at the moment. People don't seem to understand that it's not all SAS flights that are cancelled … SAS perhaps need to communicate better to the public ?
 
jtwall
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:19 am

Re: SAS on strike

Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:37 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Apparently several SAS flights are flying with alot of empty seats at the moment. People don't seem to understand that it's not all SAS flights that are cancelled … SAS perhaps need to communicate better to the public ?

SAS allowed all passengers with tickets through Monday to get a refund, regardless of cancellation status. I think some people just wanted to avoid the risk of it growing (and many probably don’t understand why the regional partners are separate - even though they say it clearly on their website).

Only know this because I’m flying SK from the US to CPH next Monday and nervously watching the negotiations from afar...

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos