OB1504
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Re: SAS on strike

Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:32 am

Norwegian can afford to take the PR hit for price gouging because it’s not like they’ll be around for much longer anyway.

The MCAS debacle alone has probably set pilotless airliners back at least 10-15 years.
 
Delta777Jet
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Re: SAS on strike

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:13 pm

I am booked today to fly Chicago - Stockholm - Berlin in Business Class. After waiting 4 hours in the queue yesterday and the line was cut I am not amused! According to their website SK will call customers or sent new schedule via email. Well this didn’t happen. When I go in my app it says no flights, and online it’s says my ticket isn’t issued.

I can only say that they should take more care about their premium passengers. I will make my way to the airport now and can only hope they get me somehow to Europe. I’ve checked and OS, LX , UA , LH , TK have all Space in Business Class. Don’t know why they didn’t just rebook me on them and sent me and email.

I do understand the strike action , but don’t understand the lack of information .
B-717/722/737-200/300/400/500/600/700/800/900/B-747-100/200/400/SP/8i/B-752/3/B-762/3/4/B-772/LR/300ER/B-787-8/-9/DC-10-10/30/L1011-1/500/MD81/82/83/90/A-319/320/321/AB6/312/313/332/333/342/343/346/359/388/TU154/IL18/ATR42/72/DH4/DH3/E145/E170/190/CR2/7/9
 
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CPHFF
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Re: SAS on strike

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:26 pm

1 200 flights for Monday and Tuesday are cancelled. 115 000 passengers affected.

Both sides are blaming each other in media for not being willing to actively negotiate today (Sunday).
Unable to update my profife photo since 2014
 
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Mortyman
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Re: SAS on strike

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:48 pm

If this continues for too long, lets say another week, SAS may loose any possible surpluss that had been achieved after so much hard work. SAS is not in that good of a financial position. The parties are playing a very risky game here.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: SAS on strike

Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:23 am

CPHFF wrote:
1 200 flights for Monday and Tuesday are cancelled. 115 000 passengers affected.

115,000 booked passengers affected. Plus an unknown number of passengers who would have booked for Monday/Tuesday if they could.

Now I have retired, but for forty years ahead of that I didn't always have the preveleage to wake up in the morning at home in Copenhagen and know in what country I would go to bed at night. Much less would I know so 2 - 3 - 4 days in advance.

On the other hand I always knew exactly when I wanted to return home: When I had finished the job. Preferably not one hour later than that.

Plenty of people must live like that. I learned that while spending ages in airport ticketing queues (smartphones were less smart forty years ago).
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
B777LRF
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Re: SAS on strike

Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:36 am

Just to put some numbers to it. There are around 1500 pilots in the SAS Group, earning an average of around DKK 66.5K per month + pension. A pay rise of 13% would cost SAS around 175M DKK a year, which is almost 20% of their profits. That's not realistic, not by a long shot, and it doesn't really matter whether SAS pilots are lagging other airlines in pilot pay; SAS simply can't afford such a raise. Particularly not when coupled with more pilots on a fixed roster, as that will decrease flexibility and result in either SAS hiring more pilots or outsourcing more flying. Either of which will lead to increased costs, and suddenly SAS may find themselves in a situation where they start producing losses after a couple of quarters. That will result in more cost cuts, affecting every other employee than pilots, and could well end in more outsourcing, effecting only pilots and cabin crew.

I appreciate SAS pilots are no longer leading in the wage races or, indeed, that they are below average. But that doesn't mean SAS are able to affording giving them an average wage. At best, the pilots may hope for more of their members on a fixed roster and salary increase in the 3-5% range.
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Delta777Jet
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Re: SAS on strike

Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:36 am

Here is my Passengers Story about the SAS strike !


So , I was to fly today with SAS from Chicago via Stockholm to Berlin in Business Class on an award ticket (Aegean Award Ticket ) . SAS rebooked me on Icelandair via KEF and told me to call Aegean Airlines (their award ticket) to reissue my ticket. But because of the Greece Easter Holiday their Call Center was closed at this time . SAS told me they cannot do anything and rebooked me on Lufthansa for Monday. They provided me with a Hotel near ORD.
I have called Aegean Calll Cener at midnight (8am in Greece), they told me they cannot reissue the ticket and SAS has to do it, as it is a involuntary rebooking.
Now I have to wait to call SAS again at 9am EST (How come Airlines have no 24 hour Call Center). There is also no Chat (SK Chat is out of service ) or email I can write to. Basically stuck because none of the two airline are willing to reissue my ticket.

What schould I do?
B-717/722/737-200/300/400/500/600/700/800/900/B-747-100/200/400/SP/8i/B-752/3/B-762/3/4/B-772/LR/300ER/B-787-8/-9/DC-10-10/30/L1011-1/500/MD81/82/83/90/A-319/320/321/AB6/312/313/332/333/342/343/346/359/388/TU154/IL18/ATR42/72/DH4/DH3/E145/E170/190/CR2/7/9
 
oldannyboy
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Re: SAS on strike

Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:01 am

greendot wrote:
happytraveller wrote:
As a lot of people have found out the hard way, many jobs can be done by a computer/robot now, so perhaps the pilots should think twice before demanding large salary increases for a job that is POSSIBLE to be carried out by a computer.

Flight decks on many large a/c went down from 3 crew to 2 crew, and with technology it is possible to reduce this further. And if oil prices return to previous levels then the golden times for airlines may be over. Striking by the pilots may not be smart move.

Jerry


Jerry, pilots will never have to think twice about this, unless androids are made who can think as well as humans.

Firstly, you greatly misunderstand aviation. Aviation is all about finding a solution in an imperfect world. Pilots always negotiate limited and imperfect input data to make decisions. For example, you cannot just rely on the colors seen on weather radar. Radar can suffer from various 'undetected' malfunctions including attenuation, which masks bigger storms behind one significant cell. Radar also does not reliably demonstrate the presence of hail, severe turbulence, or lightning. The Radar on my aircraft does show hail, turbulence, and lightning but it is NOT reliable by any stretch. It supposedly even subtracts out terrain at low altitudes to only display weather, but in practice it does a horrible job. Radar is not a 100% reliable system and LOTS of interpretation and use of unconventional wisdom to properly utilize. If you were writing software, do you simply code your system to avoid anything "red" on the radar?

Secondly, you assume that the technological systems that fly the airplane can ever be equal to a human. Humans operate without electrical power. They operate in times of severe electromagnetic interference. They are immune from cyberattacks. Humans are not limited by what they are programmed to do. Even if all aircraft sensors fail, a human pilot can still land an aircraft. If a birdstrike takes out most aircraft electronics, a human can still land an aircraft. Etc, etc, etc....

The basic problem with assuming a technological only solution is that the technology will never be implemented to its theoretical limits. Look at the recent 737Max incidents. Why is something as simple as the MCAS system so flawed? It's because it costs more to properly engineer a 3 sensor system. Personally, I wouldn't even bet my life on a 3 sensor system because it assumes that all 3 sensors don't have the same flaw, which we saw happen over the Atlantic. Quite simply, no company will spend 5000000% more to get a 2% decrease in the probability of failure. This has been the history of the nuclear industry, the medical industry, and especially government (recall the levies in New Orleans not designed in the 1 in 1000 yr storm). So, engineers will not be allowed to design a system (hardware & software) that is anywhere near as robust as a human. Like it or not, insurance companies and governments place a cost to each human life. That's why you don't get trillions in payouts from every death involving aircraft. At some point, the bean counters will rationalize an inferior technological system using statistics such as "1 in 1,000,000,000,000 chance" or "it's never happened before". Quite simply, having 2 human pilots, is significantly cheaper. At least with pilot error, you don't have to ground an entire fleet.

I'm all for continuing to improve aircraft systems. It helps me greatly to do my job. However, the technology does not make decisions, and if it does, it makes really bad ones without remorse. You should also know that I'm a real engineer, and I write real software, even today. I'm not speaking as a layman. I'm a professional engineer (Master's degree) and an airline pilot. So if you want to discuss the shortcomings of procedural, object oriented, and recursive computer languages, I can.

Pilot salaries must increase and they must improve quality of life. Airlines are typically run by MBA types that are no better than a McDonald's manager for the most part. They don't have sufficient knowledge to understand the business they are overseeing. The same problem is happening in the medical sector with beaurocrats and administrators dictating pricing to doctors. The result is that elite doctors are leaving the profession as well as beaurocratic substitutions such as replacing PhDs with Physician Assistants (PAs). So the immediate instinct of MBAs is to lower salaries in order to show a better bottom line, at the immediate cost of quality of life, and with the long term effect of getting less than the best people applying for the job. Pilot salaries, adjusted for inflation, are nowhere near what they used to be. This needs to be fixed.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

What a great reply.
Thanks for putting into words my sentiment exactly.
I was a lot less technical, as well as polite (not that I regret it!), and my reply was deleted. :tongue2:
Excellent contribution.
 
VSMUT
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Re: SAS on strike

Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:07 am

B777LRF wrote:
Just to put some numbers to it. There are around 1500 pilots in the SAS Group, earning an average of around DKK 66.5K per month + pension. A pay rise of 13% would cost SAS around 175M DKK a year, which is almost 20% of their profits.


Something doesnt add up. It has been raised in Danish media numerous times that the 1000 mainline pilots have an average salary of just over 100.000 DKK. Thats more than an average salary of 66,5K for all 1500 pilots in the group!

Tragically, regardless of actual figures, I think this points to 1000 extremely overpaid pilots and 500 extremely underpaid pilots. That means they are both leading and lagging in the wage race at the same time.
 
mm320cap
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Re: SAS on strike

Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:52 am

happytraveller wrote:
As a lot of people have found out the hard way, many jobs can be done by a computer/robot now, so perhaps the pilots should think twice before demanding large salary increases for a job that is POSSIBLE to be carried out by a computer.

Flight decks on many large a/c went down from 3 crew to 2 crew, and with technology it is possible to reduce this further. And if oil prices return to previous levels then the golden times for airlines may be over. Striking by the pilots may not be smart move.

Jerry


So you think the traveling public is going to trust Boeing with a computer system to exclusively fly them from point A to point B? *cough* MCAS *cough*.

This just proves how far we are from zero pilot airplanes. As it should be. You really should want extremely well compensated and extremely well rested pilots (2 of them) on every airplane you get on.
 
workhorse
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Re: SAS on strike

Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:34 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Just to put some numbers to it. There are around 1500 pilots in the SAS Group, earning an average of around DKK 66.5K per month + pension. A pay rise of 13% would cost SAS around 175M DKK a year, which is almost 20% of their profits. That's not realistic, not by a long shot


Sharing 20% of profits of a company with people who actually make this company function does not seem to me unrealistic at all.
 
Bricktop
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Re: SAS on strike

Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:06 pm

workhorse wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Just to put some numbers to it. There are around 1500 pilots in the SAS Group, earning an average of around DKK 66.5K per month + pension. A pay rise of 13% would cost SAS around 175M DKK a year, which is almost 20% of their profits. That's not realistic, not by a long shot


Sharing 20% of profits of a company with people who actually make this company function does not seem to me unrealistic at all.

Except we are in a golden age of airline profits. What happens in the anticipated downturn? Layoffs?
 
B777LRF
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Re: SAS on strike

Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:55 pm

workhorse wrote:
Sharing 20% of profits of a company with people who actually make this company function does not seem to me unrealistic at all.


Mmm. Well, there are roughly 11.500 employees in the SAS Group. If you give 13% of them 20% of the profits, on top of what they're making now, you're running out of profit way before padding the coffers or paying the owners.
Signature. You just read one.
 
Jetty
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Re: SAS on strike

Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:56 pm

workhorse wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Just to put some numbers to it. There are around 1500 pilots in the SAS Group, earning an average of around DKK 66.5K per month + pension. A pay rise of 13% would cost SAS around 175M DKK a year, which is almost 20% of their profits. That's not realistic, not by a long shot


Sharing 20% of profits of a company with people who actually make this company function does not seem to me unrealistic at all.

This is 84IQ logic. What about the next year? Would it again be fair to share 20% of the profit remaining after the salary increase? Continuing on that path there wouldn’t be any profits left.

You are right that people who make the company function deserve their fair share, and indeed their salaries are multiple times the profit made as it is. Saying it’s fair to share 20% of profits as if they aren’t getting much more already is flawed.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: SAS on strike

Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:11 pm

SAS lay off about 1000 employees

SAS lay off about 930 cabin employees and 70 luggage handlers as they at the moment don't have work for them due to the strike.
 
YIMBY
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Re: SAS on strike

Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:49 pm

workhorse wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Just to put some numbers to it. There are around 1500 pilots in the SAS Group, earning an average of around DKK 66.5K per month + pension. A pay rise of 13% would cost SAS around 175M DKK a year, which is almost 20% of their profits. That's not realistic, not by a long shot


Sharing 20% of profits of a company with people who actually make this company function does not seem to me unrealistic at all.


You mean only the pilots make the company function, not the other > 10000 employees.
Sure, the plane may take off if the cleaner has not visited it but not that many time before it gets impossible for the passengers.
Why no others deserve a pay rise of 8600 DKK monthly?
 
workhorse
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Re: SAS on strike

Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:34 pm

YIMBY wrote:
workhorse wrote:
Sharing 20% of profits of a company with people who actually make this company function does not seem to me unrealistic at all.


You mean only the pilots make the company function, not the other > 10000 employees.
Sure, the plane may take off if the cleaner has not visited it but not that many time before it gets impossible for the passengers.
Why no others deserve a pay rise of 8600 DKK monthly?


That's what the other 80% are for. :devil:
 
aviationlover7
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Re: SAS on strike

Wed May 01, 2019 8:30 am

workhorse wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Just to put some numbers to it. There are around 1500 pilots in the SAS Group, earning an average of around DKK 66.5K per month + pension. A pay rise of 13% would cost SAS around 175M DKK a year, which is almost 20% of their profits. That's not realistic, not by a long shot


Sharing 20% of profits of a company with people who actually make this company function does not seem to me unrealistic at all.


Such a delusional and narcissist comment, workhorse!
Look around the industry (especially in Europe) market consolidation is ongoing with lots of airlines going bust recently (Airberlin, WOW, Monarch, FlyBe, Primera, etc) - do you want SAS to be next?
 
Someone83
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Re: SAS on strike

Wed May 01, 2019 8:58 am

There will be a meeting at the Norwegian work mediator office at 11:00 today. So at least the parts have to talk today
 
VSMUT
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Re: SAS on strike

Wed May 01, 2019 9:22 am

A Swedish SAS pilot shared his salary slip:

Image

€2540 or $2852 after taxes.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: SAS on strike

Wed May 01, 2019 10:29 am

VSMUT wrote:
A Swedish SAS pilot shared his salary slip:

Image

€2540 or $2852 after taxes.



But how long has he worked for the company ?
 
DYSK
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Re: SAS on strike

Wed May 01, 2019 10:52 am

Mortyman wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
A Swedish SAS pilot shared his salary slip:

Image

€2540 or $2852 after taxes.



But how long has he worked for the company ?


That is after one year of employment
 
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Mortyman
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Re: SAS on strike

Wed May 01, 2019 10:54 am

According to NRK ( Norwegian television ) and a discussion / presentation yesterday on TV where the various parties were present, the numbers presented was:

( Monthly pay. Base salary with no adittions added like pr. diem, overtime etc )

First officer:

Beginner salary 37000 NOK ( 4288 USD / 3817 EUR )

After 10 years: 58000 NOK ( 6723 USD / 5983 EUR )

Top salary: 67000 NOK ( 7766 USD / 6912 EUR )

Captain:

Beginner salary 68000 NOK ( 7882 USD / 7014 EUR )

After 10 years 81000 NOK ( 9389 USD / 8355 EUR )

Top salary: 104000 NOK ( 12055 USD / 10728 EUR )
 
eidvm
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Re: SAS on strike

Wed May 01, 2019 11:02 am

Mortyman wrote:
According to NRK ( Norwegian television ) and a discussion / presentation yesterday on TV where the various parties were present, the numbers presented was:

( Monthly pay. Base salary with no adittions added like pr. diem, overtime etc )

First officer:

Beginner salary 37000 NOK ( 4288 USD / 3817 EUR )

After 10 years: 58000 NOK ( 6723 USD / 5983 EUR )

Top salary: 67000 NOK ( 7766 USD / 6912 EUR )

Captain:

Beginner salary 68000 NOK ( 7882 USD / 7014 EUR )

After 10 years 81000 NOK ( 9389 USD / 8355 EUR )

Top salary: 104000 NOK ( 12055 USD / 10728 EUR )


If true, those rates, particularly for Captains seem to be significantly out of line with the going market rates and well below what would be on offer at both LCCs and other legacy/national airlines.
 
jhz94
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Re: SAS on strike

Wed May 01, 2019 11:12 am

Remember that SK has forced all new captains to only work 80 % for the last year. So as soon as they have got promoted they have to reduce their employment from a full time to a 80 % one. And naturally with a pay cut to 80% of the salary.
Did you know that you can run diesel cars on Jet A1?
 
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downtown273
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Re: SAS on strike

Wed May 01, 2019 11:42 am

Mortyman wrote:
First officer:
Beginner salary 37000 NOK ( 4288 USD / 3817 EUR )
After 10 years: 58000 NOK ( 6723 USD / 5983 EUR )
Top salary: 67000 NOK ( 7766 USD / 6912 EUR )

Captain:
Beginner salary 68000 NOK ( 7882 USD / 7014 EUR )
After 10 years 81000 NOK ( 9389 USD / 8355 EUR )
Top salary: 104000 NOK ( 12055 USD / 10728 EUR )


Looking at the above, the FO's range between €46k and €83k gross income per year, while the Captains range between €84k and €129k per year. This is basic pay, overtime etc to be included on top.
Also to note, the high income tax rates of the Scandinavian countries.

Of course a Captain at €129k basic will be fine, but I can see a new FO at €46k with NO/DK/SE income tax struggling to make ends meet.
 
VSMUT
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Re: SAS on strike

Wed May 01, 2019 1:04 pm

downtown273 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
First officer:
Beginner salary 37000 NOK ( 4288 USD / 3817 EUR )
After 10 years: 58000 NOK ( 6723 USD / 5983 EUR )
Top salary: 67000 NOK ( 7766 USD / 6912 EUR )

Captain:
Beginner salary 68000 NOK ( 7882 USD / 7014 EUR )
After 10 years 81000 NOK ( 9389 USD / 8355 EUR )
Top salary: 104000 NOK ( 12055 USD / 10728 EUR )


Looking at the above, the FO's range between €46k and €83k gross income per year, while the Captains range between €84k and €129k per year. This is basic pay, overtime etc to be included on top.
Also to note, the high income tax rates of the Scandinavian countries.

Of course a Captain at €129k basic will be fine, but I can see a new FO at €46k with NO/DK/SE income tax struggling to make ends meet.


Not to mention that they probably have to live within 1 hour of the airport. For Arlanda that might not be a problem, but for Copenhagen that puts them right in the most expensive housing market in Denmark. Can't find much below 10.000 DKK. Then the bank will want a share too...
 
Mangs
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Re: SAS on strike

Wed May 01, 2019 7:11 pm

VSMUT wrote:
A Swedish SAS pilot shared his salary slip:

Image

€2540 or $2852 after taxes.


A NAS/DY pilot after one year has about 15.000-20.000SEK more than that, before tax.
 
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par13del
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Re: SAS on strike

Wed May 01, 2019 7:18 pm

downtown273 wrote:
Of course a Captain at €129k basic will be fine, but I can see a new FO at €46k with NO/DK/SE income tax struggling to make ends meet.

Why would an FO struggle to make ends meet, I thought the mantra in Europe was that the rich should pay their fair share, under that principle, I would assume that the taxes on the lower income persons would be within their salary ranges so as not to punish them for the wealthy few.
 
B747forever
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Re: SAS on strike

Wed May 01, 2019 8:11 pm

DYSK wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
A Swedish SAS pilot shared his salary slip:

Image

€2540 or $2852 after taxes.



But how long has he worked for the company ?


That is after one year of employment


On another aviation forum this has been debunked. The salary we see here is from April 2018, and was during the first month the pilot was hired. So it is not after one year of employment which the pilot in question tried to make out by removing the specific dates and showing the print out date of 29.04.2019
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
OSL777FLYER
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Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 4:05 am

This is not just about the salaries. The 13% being asked for is more from the Swedish pilots.

The situation is that in 2012 when SAS was literally just 2 hours away from bankruptcy, the pilots agreed on wage and pensions cut. "We help you now, you help us later when things are better" I guess was the way of doing things.

That is one part of it. The other part, which seems to be more important is the scheduling and promotion systems. They have an agreement now that SAS wants to change/cancel. The pilots also want a more permanent system with regards to scheduling.

The way the system works now is that about 1.5 months ahead, pilots get their schedule for the next month (I guess this is similar at many airlines?). For some, this means a lot of weekend work, which is not appreciated so much. The old Braathens that SAS purchased, had a system that Norwegian uses (at least for its crews in Norway) which is a set system of 5 days on and 4 days off. It is something like this that the SAS pilots now want.

SAS on their side claim that they are not able to meet this requirement along with the wage increases. It would simply cost too much. The pilots on the other hand, claim that they stepped up back in 2012 when the airline needed help, and now that SAS are doing quite well financially, it is time for some payback "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours".

It is hard to decide who to side with here. As Carsten Spohr of Lufthansa once said "an airline can never have too much money", yet when they are profitable, maybe it is time to give some back. At least with the scheduling, although that could mean hiring more pilots.

In any case, the strike is costing SAS about 60 Million NOK or €6 million a day. Hopefully a solution can be found, but officially no agreement is even close to fruition yet.

As I really like SAS, I hope a solution can be found soon and that they can continue to make their profits. It is a shame that an airline which struggled for years, gets into a situation like this when things are going well.

The danger for the pilots in this case is that SAS management can use this as a reason to rely more on the contract carriers and strengthen SAS Ireland for example, leading to even more friction within the group.
 
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CPHFF
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Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 6:49 am

Negotiations broke down last night. According to the mediator, parties are no closer to an agreement. 620 flights cancelled today (Thursday).
Unable to update my profife photo since 2014
 
a350lover
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Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 10:34 am

OSL777FLYER wrote:
This is not just about the salaries. The 13% being asked for is more from the Swedish pilots.

The situation is that in 2012 when SAS was literally just 2 hours away from bankruptcy, the pilots agreed on wage and pensions cut. "We help you now, you help us later when things are better" I guess was the way of doing things.

That is one part of it. The other part, which seems to be more important is the scheduling and promotion systems. They have an agreement now that SAS wants to change/cancel. The pilots also want a more permanent system with regards to scheduling.

The way the system works now is that about 1.5 months ahead, pilots get their schedule for the next month (I guess this is similar at many airlines?). For some, this means a lot of weekend work, which is not appreciated so much. The old Braathens that SAS purchased, had a system that Norwegian uses (at least for its crews in Norway) which is a set system of 5 days on and 4 days off. It is something like this that the SAS pilots now want.

SAS on their side claim that they are not able to meet this requirement along with the wage increases. It would simply cost too much. The pilots on the other hand, claim that they stepped up back in 2012 when the airline needed help, and now that SAS are doing quite well financially, it is time for some payback "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours".

It is hard to decide who to side with here. As Carsten Spohr of Lufthansa once said "an airline can never have too much money", yet when they are profitable, maybe it is time to give some back. At least with the scheduling, although that could mean hiring more pilots.

In any case, the strike is costing SAS about 60 Million NOK or €6 million a day. Hopefully a solution can be found, but officially no agreement is even close to fruition yet.

As I really like SAS, I hope a solution can be found soon and that they can continue to make their profits. It is a shame that an airline which struggled for years, gets into a situation like this when things are going well.

The danger for the pilots in this case is that SAS management can use this as a reason to rely more on the contract carriers and strengthen SAS Ireland for example, leading to even more friction within the group.


Thanks for this in detailed description of the issue.

My impression is SAS has just been doing fine over the last years. They have quite a portion of the market in Scandinavia, but the whole size of the corporation isn't that big. They only reach the top10 ranking for "Largest airlines in Europe" by taking the 10th position, only after Wizz. When you look at what the legacies have done you just see integration: IAG, Lufthansa or KLM&AirFrance. I agree not all the groups are super successful, but when it comes to finances, that seemed like the only way to make some money in this highly competitive environment.

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... top-456098

They have attempted to outsource part of the business, with SAS Ireland, but that also caused serious labour issues within the organization. They are, among the "traditional legacy carriers in Europe", the one and only which resists all by themselves, with little level of integration. That must have been painful. The fact that they operate with a multi-hub structure isn't easy either. Historically, the airline feels like a big player which linked different cultures and countries within Scandinavia. Now, the needs and expectations of each of the countries and the employees of each one isn't probably the same.

Like OSL777FLYER was saying, the pilots are asking for a wage increase and that looks like fair to me, especially when they were the first ones to make a move back in 2012 when things weren't going good for the group. For any citizen in mainland Europe, those wages that SAS pilots have published may sound fine. However, it doesn't look nice for someone who lives in Scandinavia. This is another problem of the company. SAS' home markets are among the most taxed in the world probably. This leads to prices often higher for goods in Scandinavia than in other parts of Europe. However, in this industry globalization happened quite before, and the air-ticket prices are now as low in Scandinavia as in the rest of the world.

Hard to make money in such scenario...
Last edited by a350lover on Thu May 02, 2019 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Someone83
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Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 10:39 am

CPHFF wrote:
Negotiations broke down last night. According to the mediator, parties are no closer to an agreement. 620 flights cancelled today (Thursday).


It didn’t break down last night, but no agreement has reach so they continue to negotiate and has done so through the night

Rumours and signals from the unions is that they are approaching towards and agreement. But still has some way to go
 
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par13del
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Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 10:41 am

a350lover wrote:
For any citizen in mainland Europe, those wages that SAS pilots have published may sound fine. However, it doesn't look nice for someone who lives in Scandinavia. This is another problem of the company. SAS' home markets are ones of the most taxed of the world probably. This leads to prices ofter higher for goods in Scandinavia than in other parts of Europe. However, in this industry globalization happened quite before, and the air-ticket prices are now as low in Scandinavia as in the rest of the world.

Hard to make money in such scenario...

So who is picking up the slack to allow the lower global prices in Scandinavia, or who has decided to make less money, something has to have changed to allow the low prices.
Maybe they cannot afford their own carriers and need to be like some smaller countries in the Caribbean, use foreign carriers even if it means a government subsidy. FR and EasyJet among others are available...
If the country can airlines, perhaps all the right parties are not at the table during this SAS strike, it may be a national versus a company / employee issue, are they looking for government tax breaks and subsidies?
Just a thought.
 
oslmgm
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Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 10:58 am

par13del wrote:
Just a thought.

I'm having trouble understanding your thought - can you expand on it?
 
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par13del
Posts: 8651
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Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 3:22 pm

A350lover is framing the issue in a national and global context, that due to the high taxes in Scandinavia and the lower air fares as a result of globalization, the existing salaries may be fine in the rest of Europe but not in Scandinavia.
If that is the case, someone somewhere has to be making up the difference, either the airlines, workers or the government.

On another front, if the taxes and salary situation cannot be lowered, then maybe the nation cannot afford the number of airlines, so one has to go. A lot of other carriers exist who can service the Scandinavian population.
 
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SASViking
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Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 5:13 pm

According to several Scandinavian media, a deal is very close. Also Danish TV2 have just reported, live from Oslo, that an announcement is expected "within a couple of hours and that flights are expected to operate as scheduled from tomorrow"
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
oslmgm
Posts: 208
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Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 5:17 pm

Thanks for your reply, par13del. I think it's necessary to look at the different markets SAS operate in. For the international market (in and out of Scandinavia) you might be right that the higher cost of living in Scandinavia is a competitive disadvantage, and maybe it's not viable long term. (The same way as a lot of manufacturing has moved to low cost countries.) Time will show, the market will regulate this.

The domestic market hasn't seen much competition from foreign airlines yet, and my impression is that at least the domestic market in Norway is profitable for both SAS and Norwegian. I guess Ryanair, EasyJet etc would have to establish local bases in Scandinavia to be able to compete efficiently, and then they would be in the same high cost environment.
 
Someone83
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Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 5:24 pm

SASViking wrote:
According to several Scandinavian media, a deal is very close. Also Danish TV2 have just reported, live from Oslo, that an announcement is expected "within a couple of hours and that flights are expected to operate as scheduled from tomorrow"


The last thing will not happen, as it will take between 24 and 48 hours untill traffic is back on schedule from the time the strike is called off


oslmgm wrote:
The domestic market hasn't seen much competition from foreign airlines yet, and my impression is that at least the domestic market in Norway is profitable for both SAS and Norwegian. I guess Ryanair, EasyJet etc would have to establish local bases in Scandinavia to be able to compete efficiently, and then they would be in the same high cost environment.


Both Norwegian and SAS is making money, and also good money, on domestic operations in Norway. However, there are several reasons why a third airline hasn't entered the marked, on key key is lack if slots at prime time at the major airports. In addition, while two airlines is making money, by a third entering the market, it could result in all three losing money.
 
OSL777FLYER
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Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 6:04 pm

Someone83 wrote:
SASViking wrote:
According to several Scandinavian media, a deal is very close. Also Danish TV2 have just reported, live from Oslo, that an announcement is expected "within a couple of hours and that flights are expected to operate as scheduled from tomorrow"


The last thing will not happen, as it will take between 24 and 48 hours untill traffic is back on schedule from the time the strike is called off


oslmgm wrote:
The domestic market hasn't seen much competition from foreign airlines yet, and my impression is that at least the domestic market in Norway is profitable for both SAS and Norwegian. I guess Ryanair, EasyJet etc would have to establish local bases in Scandinavia to be able to compete efficiently, and then they would be in the same high cost environment.


Both Norwegian and SAS is making money, and also good money, on domestic operations in Norway. However, there are several reasons why a third airline hasn't entered the marked, on key key is lack if slots at prime time at the major airports. In addition, while two airlines is making money, by a third entering the market, it could result in all three losing money.



Yes indeed. A third entry did try in 1999. Color Air tried to establish themselves in Norway, with also some flights to Europe. Braathens and SAS fought them out and they lasted about 400 days and losing about NOK 1 Million or €100.000 per day.

SAS are making money and the future does look better for them. They are now concentrating on having an A320 family fleet only for the short-haul with the NEO models making up the majority. For long-haul, they are getting new A350's. The thinner routes will be flown by ATR's and CRJ's on contract.

Some people wrote here earlier about how SAS has not been bought out before. Well, back in 2012, the media, as always, speculated that LH might be interested in purchasing them. LH did look at SAS at around 2008, but SAS finances were not so healthy then and in 2012 LH were more interested/occupied in making sure everything went well after their "shopping trip" in Europe acquiring OS,LX,and SN.

The Scandinavian market that SAS has flown has been "interesting yet difficult" ever since its launch in 1946 when the national airlines of Norway, Sweden and Denmark joined forced to create SAS. Each government had their own priorities. For the Danish, it was important that all major flights e.g. long-haul went through Copenhagen. For the Swedish, they were more interested in the airline using Swedish technology as SAAB were producing airliners such as the SAAB 90. For the Norwegians, infrastructure was the most important as they are a long country and road standards were not up to date.

The SAS management keeps stating the importance of having SAS remain exactly what it currently is. A representative for Scandinavia. I hope they succeed and now, as it looks like the strike is coming to an end, I wish them all the best of luck. However, it has definitely cost them.
 
a350lover
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Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 6:38 pm

SASViking wrote:
According to several Scandinavian media, a deal is very close. Also Danish TV2 have just reported, live from Oslo, that an announcement is expected "within a couple of hours and that flights are expected to operate as scheduled from tomorrow"


I assume that deal would mean that they can reinstate the 1000 people who they just laid off...?
 
a350lover
Posts: 715
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 6:39 pm

SASViking wrote:
According to several Scandinavian media, a deal is very close. Also Danish TV2 have just reported, live from Oslo, that an announcement is expected "within a couple of hours and that flights are expected to operate as scheduled from tomorrow"


I assume that deal would mean that they can reinstate the 1000 people who they just laid off...?
 
santi319
Posts: 809
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 7:12 pm

Strike is over, press conference at 9pm CPH time...

Link in Norwegian only sorry:

https://analytics.twitter.com/mob_idsyn ... d_ads=true
 
Someone83
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Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 7:15 pm

santi319 wrote:
Strike is over, press conference at 9pm CPH time...


Press conference delayed until 21.30....at earliest

a350lover wrote:
I assume that deal would mean that they can reinstate the 1000 people who they just laid off...?


They were just placed on temporarily leave, not laid off
 
Someone83
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Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 7:19 pm

OSL777FLYER wrote:
Some people wrote here earlier about how SAS has not been bought out before. Well, back in 2012, the media, as always, speculated that LH might be interested in purchasing them. LH did look at SAS at around 2008, but SAS finances were not so healthy then and in 2012 LH were more interested/occupied in making sure everything went well after their "shopping trip" in Europe acquiring OS,LX,and SN.


Lufthansa was very close to buy SAS in 2008, and a deal was almost in place. Then came the Spanair flight 5022 accident and the financial crisis. In 2012, SAS was in such poor financial state that Lufthansa didn't want to touch them.....even Eithad stayed away :stirthepot:
 
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SASViking
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Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 7:27 pm

A good sign is that several flights from CPH tomorrow May 3rd now have been assigned gates. Non of these are scheduled to be SAS Ireland, CityJet or Nordica/Regional Jet OÜ.

SK452 to OSL
SK585 to PMI
SK639 to FRA
SK402 to ARN
SK454 to OSL
SK601 to ZRH
SK1629 to DUS
SK593 to BRU
SK2551 to AMS
SK565 to CDG
SK1685 to MXP
SK595 to KEF
SK539 to MAN
SK777 to ATH
SK1207 to AAL
SK1547 to AMS
SK909 to EWR
SK1777 to FAE
SK925 to IAD
SK927 to BOS
SK943 to ORD
SK901 to EWR
SK965 to HKG
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
B747forever
Posts: 13758
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Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 7:57 pm

santi319 wrote:
Strike is over, press conference at 9pm CPH time...

Link in Norwegian only sorry:

https://analytics.twitter.com/mob_idsyn ... d_ads=true


Nothing confirmed yet, but it is expected that they will announce a end to the strike.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
workhorse
Posts: 623
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:35 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 8:29 pm

Someone83 wrote:
Lufthansa was very close to buy SAS in 2008, and a deal was almost in place. Then came the Spanair flight 5022 accident and the financial crisis. In 2012, SAS was in such poor financial state that Lufthansa didn't want to touch them


And let's thank Odinn, Thor and all other Aesir for that! I don't want even try to imagine what the beautiful SAS livery would be replaced with if that happened. :stirthepot:
 
B747forever
Posts: 13758
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: SAS on strike

Thu May 02, 2019 9:03 pm

Press conference just started, strike is over. Let us hear what they agreed on!
Work Hard, Fly Right

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