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British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:30 am

Last LGW-FLL-LGW flight will be September 7, 2019. Reservations are now closed.

The route started back in July of 2017.

Thoughts?


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SeanM1997
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:35 am

Its not surprising. The route was only 3x weekly and was there to compete with Norwegian. Norwegian have shifted their route to Miami, so now Fort Lauderdale is completely unserved from the UK.

Also, British Airways/American Airlines are increasing their London Heathrow to Miami operations from 4 to 5 daily (BA 3, AA 2) during Winter 2019 as well as Virgin Atlantic being 2 daily London Heathrow to Miami in Winter 2019 and Norwegian being 1 daily between London Gatwick and Miami in W19, meaning there are still plenty of options for passengers wanting to experience that part of Florida.

The only way I see FLL being served to the UK in the near future is Thomas Cook. However, as they are for sale and are making very limited changes for S20 compared to S19, it is very unlikely in the near term
 
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eta unknown
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:37 am

Well Norwegian just transferred their LGW-FLL fligtht to MIA last month...
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:45 am

I'm surprised BA waited this long to cancel FLL aftee Norwegian moved to Miami. I suppose it would have looked suspicious if BA cancelled FLL the day after Norwegian stopped FLL though...
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:43 am

Imagine management at FLL have long faces.
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LHRFlyer
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:51 am

A shame BA didn’t try switching it to LHR with a 787.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:00 am

LHRFlyer wrote:
A shame BA didn’t try switching it to LHR with a 787.

Was nothing stopping them, other than an assessment was that the secondary market in a heavily-served metro just wasn't worth it.

Same for OAK.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
8herveg
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:16 am

Surely if Norwegian have moved their flight to MIA, this would mean that BA have more chance of making FLL work as they are now the only option for people flying from LON (all of Europe in fact) to FLL?
 
mutu
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:06 am

The loads are not there, its averaging about a 65% LF with higher Y mix. the extra MIA rotation works better. And there are no spare 787's to move it LHR/FLL. Whether it was a Norwegian spoiler or a serious attempt to get another LGW appropriate leisure route bedded in, it hasn't generated the returns that that 777 frame could earn elsewhere.
Whether that frame temporarily returns to LHR or not is an open question. Unless extra frequenciea are announced short term for the LGW summer programme, there is no new route upcoming.
 
Brickell305
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:01 am

8herveg wrote:
Surely if Norwegian have moved their flight to MIA, this would mean that BA have more chance of making FLL work as they are now the only option for people flying from LON (all of Europe in fact) to FLL?

Norwegian operates several Europe-FLL flights.
 
jfk777
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:09 am

This flight never made sense, MIA is only 30 miles down I-95. BA is trippel daily to MIA all with 744 plus AA will be back to 2 77W, as was their regular schedule this fall. BA's attempt to "kill" Norwegian didn't work sending their LGW flight to MIA. BA would be better off with another flight to Barbados or Orlando.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:13 am

8herveg wrote:
Surely if Norwegian have moved their flight to MIA, this would mean that BA have more chance of making FLL work as they are now the only option for people flying from LON (all of Europe in fact) to FLL?


The distance MIA-FLL is pretty modest -- about 40km. Both airports are reasonably convenient to the South Florida metro area. Against the time spent on the 9-hr flight from London the difference isn't meaningful.
 
BA777FO
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:39 pm

mutu wrote:
The loads are not there, its averaging about a 65% LF with higher Y mix. the extra MIA rotation works better. And there are no spare 787's to move it LHR/FLL. Whether it was a Norwegian spoiler or a serious attempt to get another LGW appropriate leisure route bedded in, it hasn't generated the returns that that 777 frame could earn elsewhere.
Whether that frame temporarily returns to LHR or not is an open question. Unless extra frequenciea are announced short term for the LGW summer programme, there is no new route upcoming.


It hasn't been a bad route (certainly better than Oakland), but it hasn't been great either. A few factors in play; frequencies to Vegas and Cancun have been increased considerably and the densification program of the RR 777s is taking an airframe out of circulation for the forseeable future too. In addition, apparently BA could never market FLL and MIA in the same search results as there isn't a single Miami IATA code (unlike NYC etc) same was true of OAK.

It's served a purpose, Norwegian has now moved to a higher cost airport in Miami and San Francisco, where BA/AA are very strong - 5xdaily London to Miami and 2xdaily SFO including a daily A380. That'll be a tough environment for Norwegian to make money in.

Going back to BA - 8 3-class RR 777s are being refreshed this year and possibly into early next year. No strong rumours just yet but I wouldn't be surprised to see LGW-SFO and LGW-MIA added. The duplication has worked quite well so far. LGW-JFK has been strong and extra frequencies have been added to LGW-YYZ this summer too. As these 777s have bunks and are likely to find their way to LGW as LHR sees 3-class A350s come on line I think this is just the start of a more strategic shift at LGW for BA.
 
Brickell305
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:41 pm

Will the legacies (AA, BA, VS) leave DY to its LGW-MIA niche or will one of them hop on it to attempt to run them off So. Fla - London? I personally don't see the point in one of them starting LGW-MIA but I also never saw the point of BA's LGW-FLL although I thank them for running it as it allowed me a very cheap RT to London last year.
 
BA777FO
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:52 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
Will the legacies (AA, BA, VS) leave DY to its LGW-MIA niche or will one of them hop on it to attempt to run them off So. Fla - London? I personally don't see the point in one of them starting LGW-MIA but I also never saw the point of BA's LGW-FLL although I thank them for running it as it allowed me a very cheap RT to London last year.


There was/is a lot of cruise traffic and combined with the lower cost base at Gatwick it was the best way to match Norwegian's fares while still turning a reasonable profit. Now that Norwegian has been forced across to MIA in search of higher yields BA/AA can compete where it's strongest with a pretty huge dump of capacity on the route with 5xdaily for the summer.

LGW-MIA could be useful for BA, just as LGW-JFK, LGW-YYZ and LGW-LAS are despite all three stations being served from LHR as well.
 
santi319
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:29 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Imagine management at FLL have long faces.

No, the international end of the airport is already at maximum capacity... and they even built a new terminal...

And the brilliant idea to rebuild and close the long runway in June, July and August (with T-Storms every afternoon).

Broward County management sure is something else...
 
2travel2know2
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:27 pm

It's kind of strange that BA didn't chose to keep LGW-FLL seasonal, 3-4 times per week, Thanksgiving to Easter.
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usdcaguy
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:44 pm

Interesting development. I would think a DL 767 on FLL-LGW would do nicely in the absence of other carriers, but my guess is that DL/VS will continue to focus on serving LON out of MIA. Still, it's a good thing for FLL that DY is gone; they've never had enough capacity in their CBP facility to handle DY's bigger ships alongside the Caribbean passengers on B6/WN/NK, and with fewer passengers that should make things easier.
 
SonaSounds
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:47 pm

BA777FO wrote:
mutu wrote:
The loads are not there, its averaging about a 65% LF with higher Y mix. the extra MIA rotation works better. And there are no spare 787's to move it LHR/FLL. Whether it was a Norwegian spoiler or a serious attempt to get another LGW appropriate leisure route bedded in, it hasn't generated the returns that that 777 frame could earn elsewhere.
Whether that frame temporarily returns to LHR or not is an open question. Unless extra frequenciea are announced short term for the LGW summer programme, there is no new route upcoming.


It hasn't been a bad route (certainly better than Oakland), but it hasn't been great either. A few factors in play; frequencies to Vegas and Cancun have been increased considerably and the densification program of the RR 777s is taking an airframe out of circulation for the forseeable future too. In addition, apparently BA could never market FLL and MIA in the same search results as there isn't a single Miami IATA code (unlike NYC etc) same was true of OAK.

It's served a purpose, Norwegian has now moved to a higher cost airport in Miami and San Francisco, where BA/AA are very strong - 5xdaily London to Miami and 2xdaily SFO including a daily A380. That'll be a tough environment for Norwegian to make money in.

Going back to BA - 8 3-class RR 777s are being refreshed this year and possibly into early next year. No strong rumours just yet but I wouldn't be surprised to see LGW-SFO and LGW-MIA added. The duplication has worked quite well so far. LGW-JFK has been strong and extra frequencies have been added to LGW-YYZ this summer too. As these 777s have bunks and are likely to find their way to LGW as LHR sees 3-class A350s come on line I think this is just the start of a more strategic shift at LGW for BA.


I mean OAK averaged a ~58% load factor and FLL averaged ~64%. Both very economy heavy and both far from working. Pretty much a knee-jerk reaction to Norwegian entering their markets and wanting to compete head to head. With that passenger mix they needed at least another +20% to +25% load factor to even break even.
 
BA777FO
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:28 pm

SonaSounds wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
mutu wrote:
The loads are not there, its averaging about a 65% LF with higher Y mix. the extra MIA rotation works better. And there are no spare 787's to move it LHR/FLL. Whether it was a Norwegian spoiler or a serious attempt to get another LGW appropriate leisure route bedded in, it hasn't generated the returns that that 777 frame could earn elsewhere.
Whether that frame temporarily returns to LHR or not is an open question. Unless extra frequenciea are announced short term for the LGW summer programme, there is no new route upcoming.


It hasn't been a bad route (certainly better than Oakland), but it hasn't been great either. A few factors in play; frequencies to Vegas and Cancun have been increased considerably and the densification program of the RR 777s is taking an airframe out of circulation for the forseeable future too. In addition, apparently BA could never market FLL and MIA in the same search results as there isn't a single Miami IATA code (unlike NYC etc) same was true of OAK.

It's served a purpose, Norwegian has now moved to a higher cost airport in Miami and San Francisco, where BA/AA are very strong - 5xdaily London to Miami and 2xdaily SFO including a daily A380. That'll be a tough environment for Norwegian to make money in.

Going back to BA - 8 3-class RR 777s are being refreshed this year and possibly into early next year. No strong rumours just yet but I wouldn't be surprised to see LGW-SFO and LGW-MIA added. The duplication has worked quite well so far. LGW-JFK has been strong and extra frequencies have been added to LGW-YYZ this summer too. As these 777s have bunks and are likely to find their way to LGW as LHR sees 3-class A350s come on line I think this is just the start of a more strategic shift at LGW for BA.


I mean OAK averaged a ~58% load factor and FLL averaged ~64%. Both very economy heavy and both far from working. Pretty much a knee-jerk reaction to Norwegian entering their markets and wanting to compete head to head. With that passenger mix they needed at least another +20% to +25% load factor to even break even.


To be fair, FLL seemed to always get a decent Club load, 216 seats in economy, or 252 with the densified aircraft, was just a bit overkill. They've been flying the 4 class but sold as 3 class a few times a week lately.

They don't need 80%-90%+ load factors to break even. With the LGW cost base they could be profitable at 60% load factors but with scarce resources, and BA never seems to have enough aircraft, they could be deployed elsewhere more profitably. It was the same with the African routes like Lusaka, Dar Es Salam and Entebbe - they were profitable, but there were more profitable places to fly a 787 than there.

It was a knee jerk reaction to Norwegian. But given Norwegian no longer flies to FLL or OAK it's been successful - they pushed Norwegian into higher cost airports where BA has a real stronghold in the London market, especially Miami. I think BA is determined to not let Norwegian do in longhaul what easyjet in shorthaul. So far, so good as far as they're concerned.
 
airbazar
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:38 pm

BA777FO wrote:
It's served a purpose, Norwegian has now moved to a higher cost airport in Miami and San Francisco, where BA/AA are very strong - 5xdaily London to Miami and 2xdaily SFO including a daily A380. That'll be a tough environment for Norwegian to make money in.

They way I look at it is the other way around. It backfired and brought DY's lower fares to MIA and SFO, which now BA and AA have to match at least in part. Every time you invite a LCC to setup camp at your airport it's bad news.
 
Brickell305
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:43 pm

[code][/code]
usdcaguy wrote:
Interesting development. I would think a DL 767 on FLL-LGW would do nicely in the absence of other carriers, but my guess is that DL/VS will continue to focus on serving LON out of MIA. Still, it's a good thing for FLL that DY is gone; they've never had enough capacity in their CBP facility to handle DY's bigger ships alongside the Caribbean passengers on B6/WN/NK, and with fewer passengers that should make things easier.

DY isn't gone. They shifted LGW service to MIA. All other Euro service remains at FLL.
 
dc10lover
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:58 pm

I think VS dominates this Route.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
Brickell305
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:07 pm

dc10lover wrote:
I think VS dominates this Route.


What route? VS doesn't serve FLL at all and they definitely don't dominate LHR-MIA.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:15 pm

In metro areas where there are multiple airports (other than NYC), inevitably one ends up being the preferred for premium travelers and the other for low cost carriers and budget focused travelers. International carriers and premium based carriers would just rather be at MIA. Airports like BWI, OAK, FLL, ONT, etc. just arent going to draw the premium travelers that IAD, SFO, MIA, and LAX do. I think EK is the only exception but that would only be because of the B6 codeshare IMO.
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BA777FO
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:15 pm

airbazar wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
It's served a purpose, Norwegian has now moved to a higher cost airport in Miami and San Francisco, where BA/AA are very strong - 5xdaily London to Miami and 2xdaily SFO including a daily A380. That'll be a tough environment for Norwegian to make money in.

They way I look at it is the other way around. It backfired and brought DY's lower fares to MIA and SFO, which now BA and AA have to match at least in part. Every time you invite a LCC to setup camp at your airport it's bad news.


Except BA/AA have so much capacity into MIA they can do better than Norwegian's fares and still make a profit on the remaining capacity.

This is what happened in Chicago - Norwegian started, BA put an A380 on it and dumped capacity in addition to their daily 747 and AA's 4 daily flights. Norwegian had to make it seasonal rather than year round. Same with Austin. It was on a 787-9, BA responded to Norwegian by putting a 747 on the route. Norwegian is now seasonal only to Austin. BA has gone double daily to Seattle, maintained the 747 into Denver and put pressure on Norwegian everywhere, going daily with the A380 into Boston this summer.

This plays right into BA's hands, and BA has two successes already with Austin and Chicago and seen them off of Singapore. Norwegian will find it tough going to Rio and has no real foothold in any market ex-London up against BA/AA.
 
eurotrader85
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:15 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
LHRFlyer wrote:
A shame BA didn’t try switching it to LHR with a 787.

Was nothing stopping them, other than an assessment was that the secondary market in a heavily-served metro just wasn't worth it.

Same for OAK.


Agreed, a waste of a valuable LHR slot.
 
Andy33
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:20 pm

dc10lover wrote:
I think VS dominates this Route.

Are you joking? They don't fly to FLL. Now they do have a good presence in the UK-Florida market especially MCO, but this thread is specifically about FLL
 
SonaSounds
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:23 pm

BA777FO wrote:
SonaSounds wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

It hasn't been a bad route (certainly better than Oakland), but it hasn't been great either. A few factors in play; frequencies to Vegas and Cancun have been increased considerably and the densification program of the RR 777s is taking an airframe out of circulation for the forseeable future too. In addition, apparently BA could never market FLL and MIA in the same search results as there isn't a single Miami IATA code (unlike NYC etc) same was true of OAK.

It's served a purpose, Norwegian has now moved to a higher cost airport in Miami and San Francisco, where BA/AA are very strong - 5xdaily London to Miami and 2xdaily SFO including a daily A380. That'll be a tough environment for Norwegian to make money in.

Going back to BA - 8 3-class RR 777s are being refreshed this year and possibly into early next year. No strong rumours just yet but I wouldn't be surprised to see LGW-SFO and LGW-MIA added. The duplication has worked quite well so far. LGW-JFK has been strong and extra frequencies have been added to LGW-YYZ this summer too. As these 777s have bunks and are likely to find their way to LGW as LHR sees 3-class A350s come on line I think this is just the start of a more strategic shift at LGW for BA.


I mean OAK averaged a ~58% load factor and FLL averaged ~64%. Both very economy heavy and both far from working. Pretty much a knee-jerk reaction to Norwegian entering their markets and wanting to compete head to head. With that passenger mix they needed at least another +20% to +25% load factor to even break even.


To be fair, FLL seemed to always get a decent Club load, 216 seats in economy, or 252 with the densified aircraft, was just a bit overkill. They've been flying the 4 class but sold as 3 class a few times a week lately.

They don't need 80%-90%+ load factors to break even. With the LGW cost base they could be profitable at 60% load factors but with scarce resources, and BA never seems to have enough aircraft, they could be deployed elsewhere more profitably. It was the same with the African routes like Lusaka, Dar Es Salam and Entebbe - they were profitable, but there were more profitable places to fly a 787 than there.

It was a knee jerk reaction to Norwegian. But given Norwegian no longer flies to FLL or OAK it's been successful - they pushed Norwegian into higher cost airports where BA has a real stronghold in the London market, especially Miami. I think BA is determined to not let Norwegian do in longhaul what easyjet in shorthaul. So far, so good as far as they're concerned.


I would argue that these routes do need +80% LF to be viable. Pulling some data, BA at FLL averaged a 0.06 yield in 2017 while OAK averaged a 0.07. BA at MIA consequently averaged 0.15 and 0.23 at SFO. Rough calculations put needed load factor in economy and premium to be 86.3% average for FLL to break even if they were incurring average costs. I could be off some by a few percentage not knowing their exact numbers, but it is safe to say they would need an +80% load factor to break even as I stated earlier. Yields are ~250% higher at MIA vs FLL and ~330% better at SFO vs OAK.

It is true you do not need 80%-90% load factors to break even on every route. If business traffic is good and there are high yields, you can make plenty of money on half-filled planes. But FLL is much more a leisure destination than business. Yield numbers directly correlate with profitability and they don't lie.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:32 pm

I can see a LGW-SFO being a good replacement for the T7's.
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eurotrader85
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:44 pm

BA777FO wrote:
airbazar wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
It's served a purpose, Norwegian has now moved to a higher cost airport in Miami and San Francisco, where BA/AA are very strong - 5xdaily London to Miami and 2xdaily SFO including a daily A380. That'll be a tough environment for Norwegian to make money in.

They way I look at it is the other way around. It backfired and brought DY's lower fares to MIA and SFO, which now BA and AA have to match at least in part. Every time you invite a LCC to setup camp at your airport it's bad news.


Except BA/AA have so much capacity into MIA they can do better than Norwegian's fares and still make a profit on the remaining capacity.

This is what happened in Chicago - Norwegian started, BA put an A380 on it and dumped capacity in addition to their daily 747 and AA's 4 daily flights. Norwegian had to make it seasonal rather than year round. Same with Austin. It was on a 787-9, BA responded to Norwegian by putting a 747 on the route. Norwegian is now seasonal only to Austin. BA has gone double daily to Seattle, maintained the 747 into Denver and put pressure on Norwegian everywhere, going daily with the A380 into Boston this summer.

This plays right into BA's hands, and BA has two successes already with Austin and Chicago and seen them off of Singapore. Norwegian will find it tough going to Rio and has no real foothold in any market ex-London up against BA/AA.


I thought Austin was upgraded just because the route did better than BA were expecting, and has since given them the confidence to explore other 'second cities'?

Dumping capacity and depressing yields doesn't seem like a BA long-term plan, especially after turning their nose up at the A380 for the 779 on the recent WB order. LON-JFK is dominated by BA, but DY have made a very good niche out of LGW-JFK going double daily. BOS, SEA, SIN, SFO, ORD, they are all premium heavy routes which DY was always going to struggle against. As you say, BA can chase the J and dump a bit of Y, which is what DY needs to stay afloat. Seems to me both airlines just found there wasn't enough Pax going to FLL and its more cost effective and easier to market going through MIA. Inevitable this one would fail IMO.
 
skipness1E
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:49 pm

It’s not “knee jerk” competing on LGW-OAK/FLL/JFK with Norwegian, it’s part of the wider strategy of defending market share and yields on LON-US. All three might make some money but the airframes could likely make more in other matters which is why when the strategic end is met, the aircraft are tactically moved to other markets to maximise profits.
LGW-JFK might be busy but it’s the only heavy BA have in that LON-JFK market with no F cabin, Gatwick fills from the back forward and LHR vice versa.
 
Andy33
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:56 pm

2travel2know2 wrote:
It's kind of strange that BA didn't chose to keep LGW-FLL seasonal, 3-4 times per week, Thanksgiving to Easter.

Who do you think the main target market is? Florida residents who want to go to the UK (and don't want to fly from MIA) or Florida-bound UK residents who want to go to FLL rather than MIA or MCO?

Since we don't have Thanksgiving in the UK, for fairly obvious reasons, it has no meaning as a starting or cutoff date for anyone planning to go to Florida, and demand for travel between the UK and Florida is way higher in summer. The snowbird effect doesn't really work here either, due to very much less snow.
 
klm617
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:02 pm

BA777FO wrote:
airbazar wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
It's served a purpose, Norwegian has now moved to a higher cost airport in Miami and San Francisco, where BA/AA are very strong - 5xdaily London to Miami and 2xdaily SFO including a daily A380. That'll be a tough environment for Norwegian to make money in.

They way I look at it is the other way around. It backfired and brought DY's lower fares to MIA and SFO, which now BA and AA have to match at least in part. Every time you invite a LCC to setup camp at your airport it's bad news.


Except BA/AA have so much capacity into MIA they can do better than Norwegian's fares and still make a profit on the remaining capacity.

This is what happened in Chicago - Norwegian started, BA put an A380 on it and dumped capacity in addition to their daily 747 and AA's 4 daily flights. Norwegian had to make it seasonal rather than year round. Same with Austin. It was on a 787-9, BA responded to Norwegian by putting a 747 on the route. Norwegian is now seasonal only to Austin. BA has gone double daily to Seattle, maintained the 747 into Denver and put pressure on Norwegian everywhere, going daily with the A380 into Boston this summer.

This plays right into BA's hands, and BA has two successes already with Austin and Chicago and seen them off of Singapore. Norwegian will find it tough going to Rio and has no real foothold in any market ex-London up against BA/AA.


Again this takes me back to the over capacity issue of low fare seats in the major markets. Why doesn't DY move into places where they are not going to be attacked and have more pricing power. What good is say you serve all the major markets in the USA but can't turn a profit. DY needs to start looking at places like STL, CVG, CLE, CMH at maybe twice weekly service until they can get a foot hold in these markets.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
marcogr12
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:12 pm

Is DY going to be able to make it in MIA against BA/AA? And if they couldn't make it on LGW-FLL,why would they on other europe-to-FLL routes and not switch to MIA also for better yields/profits? Also i was wondering if Jetblue,now that it has the intention of flying TATL, would be able to make it on LGW-FLL with a A321 XLR?
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:25 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
Is DY going to be able to make it in MIA against BA/AA? And if they couldn't make it on LGW-FLL,why would they on other europe-to-FLL routes and not switch to MIA also for better yields/profits? Also i was wondering if Jetblue,now that it has the intention of flying TATL, would be able to make it on LGW-FLL with a A321 XLR?


DY assuming they are around in two years is likely to shift entirely to MIA - or at least non-Scandinavian service at the very least. Historically, Scandinavian service has had more originating Broward/Palm Beach O&D traffic than Dade, making the case that FLL is the better airport. But other ethnic communities schlep to MIA from Broward/Palm Beach and SAS flying to MIA (Finnair also though they shifted back once in One World - once upon a time they flew to FLL moving there from MIA in the late 1990's for the reason I stated) so maybe this will be the same.

As for B6, don't think the 321XLR has the range. BUT if it does, FLL-LON on B6 would seem logical BUT it's just as possible w/ the 321XLR FLL fades in importance for B6 as they can overfly FLL from JFK now to South America w/ the plane.
 
TC957
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:44 pm

2travel2know2 wrote:
It's kind of strange that BA didn't chose to keep LGW-FLL seasonal, 3-4 times per week, Thanksgiving to Easter.

Totally agree. FLL does well for cruise passenger traffic in winter from the UK. I think Norwegian should move their flight back to FLL and join the rest of their services from Europe there. I don't see the sense of operating to a nearby higher cost airport with just the one flight from Europe when they can concentrate their ops all at FLL.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:00 pm

TC957 wrote:
2travel2know2 wrote:
It's kind of strange that BA didn't chose to keep LGW-FLL seasonal, 3-4 times per week, Thanksgiving to Easter.

Totally agree. FLL does well for cruise passenger traffic in winter from the UK. I think Norwegian should move their flight back to FLL and join the rest of their services from Europe there. I don't see the sense of operating to a nearby higher cost airport with just the one flight from Europe when they can concentrate their ops all at FLL.


December-March service to FLL is logical but not when it's at the cost of keeping a station open for just a few months. But who knows, maybe in the future if LHR slots are less a commodity, this might happen a few times a week.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:10 pm

santi319 wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
Imagine management at FLL have long faces.

No, the international end of the airport is already at maximum capacity... and they even built a new terminal...

And the brilliant idea to rebuild and close the long runway in June, July and August (with T-Storms every afternoon).

Broward County management sure is something else...


It has to be done sometime...
 
questions
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:29 pm

Why isn’t FLL a good alternative to MIA for London flights? A lot of posters have mentioned proximity to MIA (further south). How about for travelers coming from north of FLL?
 
ferminbrif
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:30 pm

I always thought this route did not make any sense because Mia airport is just a few miles away.....
 
ferminbrif
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:37 pm

questions wrote:
Why isn’t FLL a good alternative to MIA for London flights? A lot of posters have mentioned proximity to MIA (further south). How about for travelers coming from north of FLL?

Maybe because it´s just a few miles away. Even if you’re coming from north of FLL, it doesn’t matter to drive a little bit more.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:41 pm

questions wrote:
Why isn’t FLL a good alternative to MIA for London flights? A lot of posters have mentioned proximity to MIA (further south). How about for travelers coming from north of FLL?


The is more of an issue for people from Palm Beach than Broward - many in PBC have some sort of aversion to driving to Miami based on dated or never accurate stereotypes. They are more out of luck now than those living near FLL actually who can easily drive to MIA.
 
Brickell305
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:49 pm

questions wrote:
Why isn’t FLL a good alternative to MIA for London flights? A lot of posters have mentioned proximity to MIA (further south). How about for travelers coming from north of FLL?


As someone who has taken BA's LGW-FLL flight, I personally don't think FLL was ready facility wise for the flight at least not to the extent MIA is. Having to deplane by bus, smaller passport control and customs area. Plus, based on anecdotal evidence, even the leisure traffic appears to mostly be headed to the Miami area. Most London flights are later in the evening so traffic during the times you'd be headed to the airport isn't that bad per se and any added travel time pales in comparison to the 9 hour flight to London.
 
questions
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:52 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
questions wrote:
Why isn’t FLL a good alternative to MIA for London flights? A lot of posters have mentioned proximity to MIA (further south). How about for travelers coming from north of FLL?


The is more of an issue for people from Palm Beach than Broward - many in PBC have some sort of aversion to driving to Miami based on dated or never accurate stereotypes. They are more out of luck now than those living near FLL actually who can easily drive to MIA.


Although 95 can be ugly, FLL to MIA is not that bad. But West Palm Beach, Boca Raton to MIA... that additional drive is not great, it’s more than “just a few miles.” Kind of like telling people in northern NJ that JFK is just a few more miles from EWR.

Seems like FLL always plays stepchild to MIA when South Florida could support both.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:21 am

Interestingly a rotating billboard before Hillsboro on I-95 heading south today still had the "Fly Fort Lauderdale to London Gatwick on BA" ad in its rotation.
 
BA777FO
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:58 am

SonaSounds wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
SonaSounds wrote:

I mean OAK averaged a ~58% load factor and FLL averaged ~64%. Both very economy heavy and both far from working. Pretty much a knee-jerk reaction to Norwegian entering their markets and wanting to compete head to head. With that passenger mix they needed at least another +20% to +25% load factor to even break even.


To be fair, FLL seemed to always get a decent Club load, 216 seats in economy, or 252 with the densified aircraft, was just a bit overkill. They've been flying the 4 class but sold as 3 class a few times a week lately.

They don't need 80%-90%+ load factors to break even. With the LGW cost base they could be profitable at 60% load factors but with scarce resources, and BA never seems to have enough aircraft, they could be deployed elsewhere more profitably. It was the same with the African routes like Lusaka, Dar Es Salam and Entebbe - they were profitable, but there were more profitable places to fly a 787 than there.

It was a knee jerk reaction to Norwegian. But given Norwegian no longer flies to FLL or OAK it's been successful - they pushed Norwegian into higher cost airports where BA has a real stronghold in the London market, especially Miami. I think BA is determined to not let Norwegian do in longhaul what easyjet in shorthaul. So far, so good as far as they're concerned.


I would argue that these routes do need +80% LF to be viable. Pulling some data, BA at FLL averaged a 0.06 yield in 2017 while OAK averaged a 0.07. BA at MIA consequently averaged 0.15 and 0.23 at SFO. Rough calculations put needed load factor in economy and premium to be 86.3% average for FLL to break even if they were incurring average costs. I could be off some by a few percentage not knowing their exact numbers, but it is safe to say they would need an +80% load factor to break even as I stated earlier. Yields are ~250% higher at MIA vs FLL and ~330% better at SFO vs OAK.

It is true you do not need 80%-90% load factors to break even on every route. If business traffic is good and there are high yields, you can make plenty of money on half-filled planes. But FLL is much more a leisure destination than business. Yield numbers directly correlate with profitability and they don't lie.


I'm not sure where you got those yield figures from but BA doesn't publish those publicly, not even to government agencies so I'd take those figures with a pinch of salt. In addition, that a route would need an 80-85% loadfactor to just breakeven it'd never leave the network planning stage, it'd never meet approval. BA's overall loadfactor (which I appreciate varies considerably from route to route) is ~81% - for a route to need to do better than average just to breakeven would never see the light of day. And that BA is making a ~15% operating margin on an 80% loadfactor shows where the typical breakeven loadfactor is, especially so when the shorthaul breakeven loadfactor is higher than the longhaul breakeven loadfactor.

Also I don't think it's quite appreciated how low cost the Gatwick base is. Crew are very cheap, aircraft are paid for and in the densified configuration have a lower unit cost than Norwegian's 787s, below-the-wing activity is outsourced very competitively and fees for using Gatwick are much cheaper than Heathrow.

FLL may be a leisure destination, as are most, if not all, of Gatwick's longhaul routes. They are among some of the most profitable routes on the network though! Leisure doesn't necessarily equate to cheap, especially when the Club cabin is consistently filled. Barbados is predominantly leisure but commands very high yields. Don't read too much into that, especially from Gatwick.

There are various factora at play - BA is desperately short of longhaul airframes - the 787 engine issues are still affecting 2 or 3 airframes into summer 2020, BA has just added a 3rd daily Miami and AA is upping theirs to make it 5xdaily across the JBA this summer. That allows an airframe to be freed up as the densification of the LGW RR 777s takes place. It also pushed Norwegian into BA/AA's stronghold where 5xdaily flights allows BA/AA to control the pricing on the route without materially affecting their bottom line. With over 1,500 seats compared to Norwegian's ~300 it's clear to see who's in the driving seat.
Last edited by BA777FO on Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:01 am

Do Brits even like Fort Lauderdale? Miami always struck me as the much more European destination.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:51 am

Was the777 the right plane for this route?
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:22 am

Wait a minute. Where is all the point to point mantra from the BA A380 thread?
Smaller aircraft make every route possible and more profitable, wasn't it?
But at the end of the day, BA crawls back to MIA where they're running a VLA-centered operation.

Come to think of it, it looks like BA is profitable in all its VLA markets and trying to grasp at straws wherever they are sending their smaller widebodies? Ask DY how their point to point B787 strategy is working out... and that in a cheap fuel environment.

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