HP69
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:03 pm

Or like SJC with SFO.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:09 pm

HP69 wrote:
Or like SJC with SFO.


You mean OAK.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:12 pm

Is it the signal of FLL decline?
 
jeffh747
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:44 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Is it the signal of FLL decline?

Nah, the only reason they were on the route was to force Norwegian off of it. Now that BA got what they wanted, it's up to NAX to decide whether they want to come back and re-consolidate their operations.

If NAX or EK decided to cut their routes from FLL altogether then yeah I would see that scenario as a signal of FLL's decline. But one airline dropping a route doesn't and shouldn't raise any red flags.
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clrd4t8koff
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:08 pm

jeffh747 wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Is it the signal of FLL decline?

Nah, the only reason they were on the route was to force Norwegian off of it. Now that BA got what they wanted, it's up to NAX to decide whether they want to come back and re-consolidate their operations.

If NAX or EK decided to cut their routes from FLL altogether then yeah I would see that scenario as a signal of FLL's decline. But one airline dropping a route doesn't and shouldn't raise any red flags.


Yes it is on a decline. Florida as a whole is. From FLL’s own newspaper - https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/polit ... story.html

FLL is also EK’s worst performing US market. They can’t even make it work daily with now only 3x weekly service, don’t offer a F cabin on the route and use their smallest plane, and this is with their partner B6 even having a big operation at FLL to help with connections.
 
AlexBrewster03
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:49 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
jeffh747 wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Is it the signal of FLL decline?

Nah, the only reason they were on the route was to force Norwegian off of it. Now that BA got what they wanted, it's up to NAX to decide whether they want to come back and re-consolidate their operations.

If NAX or EK decided to cut their routes from FLL altogether then yeah I would see that scenario as a signal of FLL's decline. But one airline dropping a route doesn't and shouldn't raise any red flags.


Yes it is on a decline. Florida as a whole is. From FLL’s own newspaper - https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/polit ... story.html

FLL is also EK’s worst performing US market. They can’t even make it work daily with now only 3x weekly service, don’t offer a F cabin on the route and use their smallest plane, and this is with their partner B6 even having a big operation at FLL to help with connections.

Is there a possibility of BA switching to MIA? IDK much, but surely that could work better for them...?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:23 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
jeffh747 wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Is it the signal of FLL decline?

Nah, the only reason they were on the route was to force Norwegian off of it. Now that BA got what they wanted, it's up to NAX to decide whether they want to come back and re-consolidate their operations.

If NAX or EK decided to cut their routes from FLL altogether then yeah I would see that scenario as a signal of FLL's decline. But one airline dropping a route doesn't and shouldn't raise any red flags.


Yes it is on a decline. Florida as a whole is. From FLL’s own newspaper - https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/polit ... story.html


You ought to look at passenger data for FLL before asserting or asking that.

YTD 7/2019: 22.4 million passengers, up 3.2%
YTD 7/2018, 21.7 million, up 9.7% from YTD 7/2017

That you gave a link to a story which didn't cite FLL passenger traffic at all is a defect I can't help.
 
Cunard
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:16 pm

AlexBrewster03 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
jeffh747 wrote:
Nah, the only reason they were on the route was to force Norwegian off of it. Now that BA got what they wanted, it's up to NAX to decide whether they want to come back and re-consolidate their operations.

If NAX or EK decided to cut their routes from FLL altogether then yeah I would see that scenario as a signal of FLL's decline. But one airline dropping a route doesn't and shouldn't raise any red flags.


Yes it is on a decline. Florida as a whole is. From FLL’s own newspaper - https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/polit ... story.html

FLL is also EK’s worst performing US market. They can’t even make it work daily with now only 3x weekly service, don’t offer a F cabin on the route and use their smallest plane, and this is with their partner B6 even having a big operation at FLL to help with connections.

Is there a possibility of BA switching to MIA? IDK much, but surely that could work better for them...?


British Airways are already at MIA and they have been for several decades so I don't understand your suggestion of ''possibility of BA switching to MIA?''.

It has been mentioned on several occasions throughout this thread why BA initially started LGW to FLL and the reasons behind the flight being discontinued!

In my opinion EK should also move their flight from FLL to MIA, as much as I like FLL I just don't see the point of EK serving the airport over MIA.
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dcajet
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:45 pm

Cunard wrote:

In my opinion EK should also move their flight from FLL to MIA, as much as I like FLL I just don't see the point of EK serving the airport over MIA.


FLL is where the feed from JetBlue is at. No small potatoes for EK.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:57 pm

HP69 wrote:
It still could have worked as a stand-alone flight

Based on ____?


dcajet wrote:
the feed from JetBlue is at. No small potatoes for EK.

Is it though? There's not that many unique B6 routes offered from FLL-only, and of them, how many are feeding 13hr+ longhauls to/from the MiddleEast in any meaningful quantity...
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
MAH4546
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:11 pm

enilria wrote:
8herveg wrote:
Surely if Norwegian have moved their flight to MIA, this would mean that BA have more chance of making FLL work as they are now the only option for people flying from LON (all of Europe in fact) to FLL?

It was never intended to “work”. It was just there to damage Norwegian financially which it achieved. Plus, OW has a huge hub at MIA, not FLL.


I mean, Norwegian simply moved the Gatwick flight to Miami and upped it to daily. Not sure that’s better for BA.
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dcajet
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:05 pm

LAX772LR wrote:


dcajet wrote:
the feed from JetBlue is at. No small potatoes for EK.

Is it though? There's not that many unique B6 routes offered from FLL-only, and of them, how many are feeding 13hr+ longhauls to/from the MiddleEast in any meaningful quantity...


However big or small it may be, it's more that the feed that B6 could offer at MIA. EK has profited nicely from the B6 relationship, as it can be part of the Fly America Act.

https://www.emirates.com/us/english/pla ... te-travel/
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LAX772LR
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:42 pm

dcajet wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
dcajet wrote:
the feed from JetBlue is at. No small potatoes for EK.

Is it though? There's not that many unique B6 routes offered from FLL-only, and of them, how many are feeding 13hr+ longhauls to/from the MiddleEast in any meaningful quantity...


However big or small it may be, it's more that the feed that B6 could offer at MIA. EK has profited nicely from the B6 relationship, as it can be part of the Fly America Act.

https://www.emirates.com/us/english/pla ... te-travel/

Sure, though let's stay within the universe of the issue presented: no one is questioning the merit of EK's relationship with B6.
The question here, is if that relationship is beneficial enough to make keeping FLL worthwhile, with or without the inclusion of MIA.

That answer, is not as apparent as some here would have us think, in terms of longhaul traffic.
If it were, FLL would likely have far more of it; keeping in mind that nearly all of this has occurred in a relatively bull market.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Miami
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:48 pm

jeffh747 wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Is it the signal of FLL decline?

Nah, the only reason they were on the route was to force Norwegian off of it. Now that BA got what they wanted, it's up to NAX to decide whether they want to come back and re-consolidate their operations.

If NAX or EK decided to cut their routes from FLL altogether then yeah I would see that scenario as a signal of FLL's decline. But one airline dropping a route doesn't and shouldn't raise any red flags.


Norwegian isn't leaving Miami. If anything, be prepared for Norwegian to move all operations from FLL to MIA.

Also, no more room to grow for EK at FLL. Plus they couldn't even handle daily 77L flights.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
jeffh747
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:23 pm

Miami wrote:
jeffh747 wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Is it the signal of FLL decline?

Nah, the only reason they were on the route was to force Norwegian off of it. Now that BA got what they wanted, it's up to NAX to decide whether they want to come back and re-consolidate their operations.

If NAX or EK decided to cut their routes from FLL altogether then yeah I would see that scenario as a signal of FLL's decline. But one airline dropping a route doesn't and shouldn't raise any red flags.


Norwegian isn't leaving Miami. If anything, be prepared for Norwegian to move all operations from FLL to MIA.

Also, no more room to grow for EK at FLL. Plus they couldn't even handle daily 77L flights.

I'll be surprised to see Norwegian shift all of their flights to MIA. Interesting to keep an eye on for sure but they first have to make it past the winter months.
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MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:51 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Is it the signal of FLL decline?


FLL is in decline in some areas.

- It's pretty clear premium international travelers do not want to use the airport. Though it must be also mentioned several businesses do have HQ's or regional HQ's closer to FLL than MIA but overall most are closer to MIA.
- FLL is having a harder time than in the past sustaining second-tier domestic markets. NK is cutting three cities soon, cities they will continue to serve from MCO and other leisure oriented or ULCC points.
- FLL hasn't been able to attract any new mainline Latin American or Caribbean carriers in some time. In fact have lost a few through the years.
- FLL remains a delay-prone airport and one with some horrible traffic to get in and out of.

But FLL still has some positives.

- New T4 setup will be fantastic once it is complete. I'm impressed by what I have seen.
- Most domestic travelers from other areas still prefer it to MIA.
- Local travelers if not tied in by corporate contracts or FF programs still prefer B6 to AA. The poor customer service reputation of AA (which IMO is overblown but it's there denying it doesn't change the anecdotal evidence I see constantly on this) drives many people I know who live in or travel primarily to Dade County to FLL, generally to fly B6 domestically. While the drive isn't great it's better for some than flying AA. Again that's not me, I fly both AA out of MIA and B6 out of FLL, but some avoid AA if they are flying on leisure or VFR like the plague.
- Once WN gets the MAX back I expect them to double-down on some domestic routes from FLL. I think that might prove FLL's fail-safe with NK more focused on other markets and B6 struggling in general. Also worth noting after years of being stagnant or cuts, it seems DL and UA are growing ever so slightly again at the airport indicating some network carriers still see value in the place.
 
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September11
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:00 pm

FLL was screaming for airlines in the 1980s... Not anymore.
Airliners.net of the Future
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:45 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
jeffh747 wrote:
Nah, the only reason they were on the route was to force Norwegian off of it. Now that BA got what they wanted, it's up to NAX to decide whether they want to come back and re-consolidate their operations.

If NAX or EK decided to cut their routes from FLL altogether then yeah I would see that scenario as a signal of FLL's decline. But one airline dropping a route doesn't and shouldn't raise any red flags.


Yes it is on a decline. Florida as a whole is. From FLL’s own newspaper - https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/polit ... story.html


You ought to look at passenger data for FLL before asserting or asking that.

YTD 7/2019: 22.4 million passengers, up 3.2%
YTD 7/2018, 21.7 million, up 9.7% from YTD 7/2017

That you gave a link to a story which didn't cite FLL passenger traffic at all is a defect I can't help.


That your reading comprehension is that poor is a defect I can’t help. I clearly prefaced the link by saying “Florida as a whole is on a decline.”

Also, this thread is specifically about BA axing FLL. Another poster brought up EK so I gave facts there too.

Finally, you throwing out random numbers with no source is a waste of everyone’s time.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:59 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:

Yes it is on a decline. Florida as a whole is. From FLL’s own newspaper - https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/polit ... story.html


You ought to look at passenger data for FLL before asserting or asking that.

YTD 7/2019: 22.4 million passengers, up 3.2%
YTD 7/2018, 21.7 million, up 9.7% from YTD 7/2017

That you gave a link to a story which didn't cite FLL passenger traffic at all is a defect I can't help.


That your reading comprehension is that poor is a defect I can’t help. I clearly prefaced the link by saying “Florida as a whole is on a decline.”

Also, this thread is specifically about BA axing FLL. Another poster brought up EK so I gave facts there too.

Finally, you throwing out random numbers with no source is a waste of everyone’s time.


FWIW, I always felt EK might struggle at either MIA or FLL because this metro area doesn't have the number of potential south Asian VFR passengers that most other large metro areas do in the US. QR benefits from MIA being a One World hub. But both MIA and FLL are less attractive than CHI, NYC, DFW, IAH, IAD, BOS, SEA, SFO, LAX etc when it comes to this demographic which does help drive EK, QR and previously EY numbers in the US. TK is less dependent on this demographic and has always done fairly well at MIA. Has a good reputation in this market also.
 
Brickell305
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:27 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Is it the signal of FLL decline?


FLL is in decline in some areas.

- It's pretty clear premium international travelers do not want to use the airport. Though it must be also mentioned several businesses do have HQ's or regional HQ's closer to FLL than MIA but overall most are closer to MIA.
- FLL is having a harder time than in the past sustaining second-tier domestic markets. NK is cutting three cities soon, cities they will continue to serve from MCO and other leisure oriented or ULCC points.
- FLL hasn't been able to attract any new mainline Latin American or Caribbean carriers in some time. In fact have lost a few through the years.
- FLL remains a delay-prone airport and one with some horrible traffic to get in and out of.

But FLL still has some positives.

- New T4 setup will be fantastic once it is complete. I'm impressed by what I have seen.
- Most domestic travelers from other areas still prefer it to MIA.
- Local travelers if not tied in by corporate contracts or FF programs still prefer B6 to AA. The poor customer service reputation of AA (which IMO is overblown but it's there denying it doesn't change the anecdotal evidence I see constantly on this) drives many people I know who live in or travel primarily to Dade County to FLL, generally to fly B6 domestically. While the drive isn't great it's better for some than flying AA. Again that's not me, I fly both AA out of MIA and B6 out of FLL, but some avoid AA if they are flying on leisure or VFR like the plague.
- Once WN gets the MAX back I expect them to double-down on some domestic routes from FLL. I think that might prove FLL's fail-safe with NK more focused on other markets and B6 struggling in general. Also worth noting after years of being stagnant or cuts, it seems DL and UA are growing ever so slightly again at the airport indicating some network carriers still see value in the place.

On what basis are you asserting local traveler preference for B6 over AA? Is there a single leisure or VFR route where B6 has more capacity than AA out of So. Fla? I can’t think of any. In most, AA dwarfs B6.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:05 pm

    sonicruiser wrote:
    HP69 wrote:
    Or like SJC with SFO.


    You mean OAK.


    No, he means SJC. BA flies LHR-SJC.
     
    MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:36 pm

    Brickell305 wrote:
    MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
    chunhimlai wrote:
    Is it the signal of FLL decline?


    FLL is in decline in some areas.

    - It's pretty clear premium international travelers do not want to use the airport. Though it must be also mentioned several businesses do have HQ's or regional HQ's closer to FLL than MIA but overall most are closer to MIA.
    - FLL is having a harder time than in the past sustaining second-tier domestic markets. NK is cutting three cities soon, cities they will continue to serve from MCO and other leisure oriented or ULCC points.
    - FLL hasn't been able to attract any new mainline Latin American or Caribbean carriers in some time. In fact have lost a few through the years.
    - FLL remains a delay-prone airport and one with some horrible traffic to get in and out of.

    But FLL still has some positives.

    - New T4 setup will be fantastic once it is complete. I'm impressed by what I have seen.
    - Most domestic travelers from other areas still prefer it to MIA.
    - Local travelers if not tied in by corporate contracts or FF programs still prefer B6 to AA. The poor customer service reputation of AA (which IMO is overblown but it's there denying it doesn't change the anecdotal evidence I see constantly on this) drives many people I know who live in or travel primarily to Dade County to FLL, generally to fly B6 domestically. While the drive isn't great it's better for some than flying AA. Again that's not me, I fly both AA out of MIA and B6 out of FLL, but some avoid AA if they are flying on leisure or VFR like the plague.
    - Once WN gets the MAX back I expect them to double-down on some domestic routes from FLL. I think that might prove FLL's fail-safe with NK more focused on other markets and B6 struggling in general. Also worth noting after years of being stagnant or cuts, it seems DL and UA are growing ever so slightly again at the airport indicating some network carriers still see value in the place.

    On what basis are you asserting local traveler preference for B6 over AA? Is there a single leisure or VFR route where B6 has more capacity than AA out of So. Fla? I can’t think of any. In most, AA dwarfs B6.


    Just anecdotal evidence. Yes AA has far more capacity because when anyone flies for business to/from the region they generally fly AA. It remains the business choice with most corporate accounts.

    FLL is in real trouble overall if WN doesn't get the MAX back. Then again it might just be right-sizing. FLL in theory shouldn't be any different than SNA, ONT, PBI, etc. Those airports have been spokes that have not grown a whole heck of a lot years. For whatever reason it's overgrown its natural catchment area. Miami is the place business people and tourists want to be and in general Broward /Palm Beach are more or less backwaters by comparison so it's remarkable FLL has sustained as much service as it has. Population of the FLL and PBI catchment areas are high but very little business or industry of note with a few notable exceptions (AutoNation, Citrix, OfficeDepot etc) - VFR really the only sustainable driver. So it's odd the airport is as busy as it is when places like SNA, ONT, etc aren't.
     
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    enilria
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    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:06 pm

    MAH4546 wrote:
    enilria wrote:
    8herveg wrote:
    Surely if Norwegian have moved their flight to MIA, this would mean that BA have more chance of making FLL work as they are now the only option for people flying from LON (all of Europe in fact) to FLL?

    It was never intended to “work”. It was just there to damage Norwegian financially which it achieved. Plus, OW has a huge hub at MIA, not FLL.


    I mean, Norwegian simply moved the Gatwick flight to Miami and upped it to daily. Not sure that’s better for BA.

    You've just made the case of why retaliation is a questionable enterprise. You put your finger in one hole in the dike and water comes out a new hole. Norwegian has to fly the planes somewhere. The whole point of doing FLL instead of MIA is to stay out of a competitive war by being off the grid. Once that benefit was gone they moved. The only way to really succeed with the retaliation game is to completely kill the other airline which they are quite far along on.
     
    Brickell305
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    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:20 pm

    MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
    Brickell305 wrote:
    MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

    FLL is in decline in some areas.

    - It's pretty clear premium international travelers do not want to use the airport. Though it must be also mentioned several businesses do have HQ's or regional HQ's closer to FLL than MIA but overall most are closer to MIA.
    - FLL is having a harder time than in the past sustaining second-tier domestic markets. NK is cutting three cities soon, cities they will continue to serve from MCO and other leisure oriented or ULCC points.
    - FLL hasn't been able to attract any new mainline Latin American or Caribbean carriers in some time. In fact have lost a few through the years.
    - FLL remains a delay-prone airport and one with some horrible traffic to get in and out of.

    But FLL still has some positives.

    - New T4 setup will be fantastic once it is complete. I'm impressed by what I have seen.
    - Most domestic travelers from other areas still prefer it to MIA.
    - Local travelers if not tied in by corporate contracts or FF programs still prefer B6 to AA. The poor customer service reputation of AA (which IMO is overblown but it's there denying it doesn't change the anecdotal evidence I see constantly on this) drives many people I know who live in or travel primarily to Dade County to FLL, generally to fly B6 domestically. While the drive isn't great it's better for some than flying AA. Again that's not me, I fly both AA out of MIA and B6 out of FLL, but some avoid AA if they are flying on leisure or VFR like the plague.
    - Once WN gets the MAX back I expect them to double-down on some domestic routes from FLL. I think that might prove FLL's fail-safe with NK more focused on other markets and B6 struggling in general. Also worth noting after years of being stagnant or cuts, it seems DL and UA are growing ever so slightly again at the airport indicating some network carriers still see value in the place.

    On what basis are you asserting local traveler preference for B6 over AA? Is there a single leisure or VFR route where B6 has more capacity than AA out of So. Fla? I can’t think of any. In most, AA dwarfs B6.


    Just anecdotal evidence. Yes AA has far more capacity because when anyone flies for business to/from the region they generally fly AA. It remains the business choice with most corporate accounts.

    FLL is in real trouble overall if WN doesn't get the MAX back. Then again it might just be right-sizing. FLL in theory shouldn't be any different than SNA, ONT, PBI, etc. Those airports have been spokes that have not grown a whole heck of a lot years. For whatever reason it's overgrown its natural catchment area. Miami is the place business people and tourists want to be and in general Broward /Palm Beach are more or less backwaters by comparison so it's remarkable FLL has sustained as much service as it has. Population of the FLL and PBI catchment areas are high but very little business or industry of note with a few notable exceptions (AutoNation, Citrix, OfficeDepot etc) - VFR really the only sustainable driver. So it's odd the airport is as busy as it is when places like SNA, ONT, etc aren't.


    AA's lead in So. Fla isn't just about being the business airline. There are several leisure routes out of So. Fla where AA either dwarfs B6 or B6 doesn't serve them at all. Not all of those people are AA FFs burning miles. And yes, while AA also offers more connections ex MIA than B6 does ex FLL, it's not as if B6 is entirely O&D out of FLL. For example, business travel alone wouldn't account for why AA can offer up to 3x daily to BGI whereas B6 is 4x weekly. Basically, if everyone preferred B6 and only stuck to AA out of FF loyalty/business ties, the gap in service to leisure/VFR destinations out of So. Fla would be much narrower.

    Regarding levels of service to FLL more broadly, first and foremost, yes the Miami/Miami Beach area may be the bigger draw tourist wise but Fort Lauderdale/Broward is also a healthy tourist destination in its own right. Ft. Laud/Broward has its own cruise port. It's not some backwater area with nothing of its own. Furthermore, for some reason, A. Net likes to make it seem as if a drive from FLL to the Miami area is like driving from Naples or Key West to Miami but it isn't. FLL is just off I-95. It's a 40 minute drive (if that much) during non-peak times. FLL has always been the lower cost operation of the two main airports in the region. As such, multiple LCCs and ULCCs have set up shop there. The lower fares and wider array of airlines (domestically) at FLL have stimulated traffic there and even for those people whose final destination within the metro area is Miami/Miami Beach, it is a more than suitable option. The same is true for people who live in Metro Miami as well. The two airports are generally used interchangeably, especially by those who fly infrequently.
     
    tphuang
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    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:27 pm

    Brickell305 wrote:
    MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
    Brickell305 wrote:
    On what basis are you asserting local traveler preference for B6 over AA? Is there a single leisure or VFR route where B6 has more capacity than AA out of So. Fla? I can’t think of any. In most, AA dwarfs B6.


    Just anecdotal evidence. Yes AA has far more capacity because when anyone flies for business to/from the region they generally fly AA. It remains the business choice with most corporate accounts.

    FLL is in real trouble overall if WN doesn't get the MAX back. Then again it might just be right-sizing. FLL in theory shouldn't be any different than SNA, ONT, PBI, etc. Those airports have been spokes that have not grown a whole heck of a lot years. For whatever reason it's overgrown its natural catchment area. Miami is the place business people and tourists want to be and in general Broward /Palm Beach are more or less backwaters by comparison so it's remarkable FLL has sustained as much service as it has. Population of the FLL and PBI catchment areas are high but very little business or industry of note with a few notable exceptions (AutoNation, Citrix, OfficeDepot etc) - VFR really the only sustainable driver. So it's odd the airport is as busy as it is when places like SNA, ONT, etc aren't.


    AA's lead in So. Fla isn't just about being the business airline. There are several leisure routes out of So. Fla where AA either dwarfs B6 or B6 doesn't serve them at all. Not all of those people are AA FFs burning miles. And yes, while AA also offers more connections ex MIA than B6 does ex FLL, it's not as if B6 is entirely O&D out of FLL. For example, business travel alone wouldn't account for why AA can offer up to 3x daily to BGI whereas B6 is 4x weekly. Basically, if everyone preferred B6 and only stuck to AA out of FF loyalty/business ties, the gap in service to leisure/VFR destinations out of So. Fla would be much narrower.

    Regarding levels of service to FLL more broadly, first and foremost, yes the Miami/Miami Beach area may be the bigger draw tourist wise but Fort Lauderdale/Broward is also a healthy tourist destination in its own right. Ft. Laud/Broward has its own cruise port. It's not some backwater area with nothing of its own. Furthermore, for some reason, A. Net likes to make it seem as if a drive from FLL to the Miami area is like driving from Naples or Key West to Miami but it isn't. FLL is just off I-95. It's a 40 minute drive (if that much) during non-peak times. FLL has always been the lower cost operation of the two main airports in the region. As such, multiple LCCs and ULCCs have set up shop there. The lower fares and wider array of airlines (domestically) at FLL have stimulated traffic there and even for those people whose final destination within the metro area is Miami/Miami Beach, it is a more than suitable option. The same is true for people who live in Metro Miami as well. The two airports are generally used interchangeably, especially by those who fly infrequently.


    you have to consider that at MIA, AA is probably 60% connecting and 40% O&D whereas B6 is 80% O&D and 20% connecting at FLL.

    and evidence would say that B6 at FLL is a far more profitable operation than AA at MIA.
     
    Brickell305
    Posts: 678
    Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:36 pm

    tphuang wrote:
    Brickell305 wrote:
    MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

    Just anecdotal evidence. Yes AA has far more capacity because when anyone flies for business to/from the region they generally fly AA. It remains the business choice with most corporate accounts.

    FLL is in real trouble overall if WN doesn't get the MAX back. Then again it might just be right-sizing. FLL in theory shouldn't be any different than SNA, ONT, PBI, etc. Those airports have been spokes that have not grown a whole heck of a lot years. For whatever reason it's overgrown its natural catchment area. Miami is the place business people and tourists want to be and in general Broward /Palm Beach are more or less backwaters by comparison so it's remarkable FLL has sustained as much service as it has. Population of the FLL and PBI catchment areas are high but very little business or industry of note with a few notable exceptions (AutoNation, Citrix, OfficeDepot etc) - VFR really the only sustainable driver. So it's odd the airport is as busy as it is when places like SNA, ONT, etc aren't.


    AA's lead in So. Fla isn't just about being the business airline. There are several leisure routes out of So. Fla where AA either dwarfs B6 or B6 doesn't serve them at all. Not all of those people are AA FFs burning miles. And yes, while AA also offers more connections ex MIA than B6 does ex FLL, it's not as if B6 is entirely O&D out of FLL. For example, business travel alone wouldn't account for why AA can offer up to 3x daily to BGI whereas B6 is 4x weekly. Basically, if everyone preferred B6 and only stuck to AA out of FF loyalty/business ties, the gap in service to leisure/VFR destinations out of So. Fla would be much narrower.

    Regarding levels of service to FLL more broadly, first and foremost, yes the Miami/Miami Beach area may be the bigger draw tourist wise but Fort Lauderdale/Broward is also a healthy tourist destination in its own right. Ft. Laud/Broward has its own cruise port. It's not some backwater area with nothing of its own. Furthermore, for some reason, A. Net likes to make it seem as if a drive from FLL to the Miami area is like driving from Naples or Key West to Miami but it isn't. FLL is just off I-95. It's a 40 minute drive (if that much) during non-peak times. FLL has always been the lower cost operation of the two main airports in the region. As such, multiple LCCs and ULCCs have set up shop there. The lower fares and wider array of airlines (domestically) at FLL have stimulated traffic there and even for those people whose final destination within the metro area is Miami/Miami Beach, it is a more than suitable option. The same is true for people who live in Metro Miami as well. The two airports are generally used interchangeably, especially by those who fly infrequently.


    you have to consider that at MIA, AA is probably 60% connecting and 40% O&D whereas B6 is 80% O&D and 20% connecting at FLL.

    and evidence would say that B6 at FLL is a far more profitable operation than AA at MIA.

    Yes but we're not discussing profits so that part isn't relevant. Even at 40% O/D vs 80% for B6, if AA is flying to a destination 3x a day versus B6 flying there 4x a week, AA is taking significantly more O&D passengers to said destination than B6 is.
     
    MAH4546
    Posts: 25753
    Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:38 pm

    tphuang wrote:
    Brickell305 wrote:
    MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

    Just anecdotal evidence. Yes AA has far more capacity because when anyone flies for business to/from the region they generally fly AA. It remains the business choice with most corporate accounts.

    FLL is in real trouble overall if WN doesn't get the MAX back. Then again it might just be right-sizing. FLL in theory shouldn't be any different than SNA, ONT, PBI, etc. Those airports have been spokes that have not grown a whole heck of a lot years. For whatever reason it's overgrown its natural catchment area. Miami is the place business people and tourists want to be and in general Broward /Palm Beach are more or less backwaters by comparison so it's remarkable FLL has sustained as much service as it has. Population of the FLL and PBI catchment areas are high but very little business or industry of note with a few notable exceptions (AutoNation, Citrix, OfficeDepot etc) - VFR really the only sustainable driver. So it's odd the airport is as busy as it is when places like SNA, ONT, etc aren't.


    AA's lead in So. Fla isn't just about being the business airline. There are several leisure routes out of So. Fla where AA either dwarfs B6 or B6 doesn't serve them at all. Not all of those people are AA FFs burning miles. And yes, while AA also offers more connections ex MIA than B6 does ex FLL, it's not as if B6 is entirely O&D out of FLL. For example, business travel alone wouldn't account for why AA can offer up to 3x daily to BGI whereas B6 is 4x weekly. Basically, if everyone preferred B6 and only stuck to AA out of FF loyalty/business ties, the gap in service to leisure/VFR destinations out of So. Fla would be much narrower.

    Regarding levels of service to FLL more broadly, first and foremost, yes the Miami/Miami Beach area may be the bigger draw tourist wise but Fort Lauderdale/Broward is also a healthy tourist destination in its own right. Ft. Laud/Broward has its own cruise port. It's not some backwater area with nothing of its own. Furthermore, for some reason, A. Net likes to make it seem as if a drive from FLL to the Miami area is like driving from Naples or Key West to Miami but it isn't. FLL is just off I-95. It's a 40 minute drive (if that much) during non-peak times. FLL has always been the lower cost operation of the two main airports in the region. As such, multiple LCCs and ULCCs have set up shop there. The lower fares and wider array of airlines (domestically) at FLL have stimulated traffic there and even for those people whose final destination within the metro area is Miami/Miami Beach, it is a more than suitable option. The same is true for people who live in Metro Miami as well. The two airports are generally used interchangeably, especially by those who fly infrequently.


    you have to consider that at MIA, AA is probably 60% connecting and 40% O&D whereas B6 is 80% O&D and 20% connecting at FLL.

    and evidence would say that B6 at FLL is a far more profitable operation than AA at MIA.


    What evidence?

    You’re also literally just throwing out random numbers. AA at MIA has historically been around 55%-60% local traffic.
    a.
     
    tphuang
    Posts: 3229
    Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:14 pm

    MAH4546 wrote:
    tphuang wrote:
    Brickell305 wrote:

    AA's lead in So. Fla isn't just about being the business airline. There are several leisure routes out of So. Fla where AA either dwarfs B6 or B6 doesn't serve them at all. Not all of those people are AA FFs burning miles. And yes, while AA also offers more connections ex MIA than B6 does ex FLL, it's not as if B6 is entirely O&D out of FLL. For example, business travel alone wouldn't account for why AA can offer up to 3x daily to BGI whereas B6 is 4x weekly. Basically, if everyone preferred B6 and only stuck to AA out of FF loyalty/business ties, the gap in service to leisure/VFR destinations out of So. Fla would be much narrower.

    Regarding levels of service to FLL more broadly, first and foremost, yes the Miami/Miami Beach area may be the bigger draw tourist wise but Fort Lauderdale/Broward is also a healthy tourist destination in its own right. Ft. Laud/Broward has its own cruise port. It's not some backwater area with nothing of its own. Furthermore, for some reason, A. Net likes to make it seem as if a drive from FLL to the Miami area is like driving from Naples or Key West to Miami but it isn't. FLL is just off I-95. It's a 40 minute drive (if that much) during non-peak times. FLL has always been the lower cost operation of the two main airports in the region. As such, multiple LCCs and ULCCs have set up shop there. The lower fares and wider array of airlines (domestically) at FLL have stimulated traffic there and even for those people whose final destination within the metro area is Miami/Miami Beach, it is a more than suitable option. The same is true for people who live in Metro Miami as well. The two airports are generally used interchangeably, especially by those who fly infrequently.


    you have to consider that at MIA, AA is probably 60% connecting and 40% O&D whereas B6 is 80% O&D and 20% connecting at FLL.

    and evidence would say that B6 at FLL is a far more profitable operation than AA at MIA.


    What evidence?

    You’re also literally just throwing out random numbers. AA at MIA has historically been around 55%-60% local traffic.


    http://blueir.investproductions.com/~/m ... 2-2016.pdf
    check slide 32,
    B6 at 82%
    WN at 75%
    NK at 74%
    AA at 39%

    Feel free to not attack me in the future.
    Brickell305 wrote:
    Yes but we're not discussing profits so that part isn't relevant. Even at 40% O/D vs 80% for B6, if AA is flying to a destination 3x a day versus B6 flying there 4x a week, AA is taking significantly more O&D passengers to said destination than B6 is.

    you are picking one destination out of many. I'm simply pointing out that using number of flights without accounting for local numbers is not sufficient.
     
    Brickell305
    Posts: 678
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    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:37 pm

    tphuang wrote:
    MAH4546 wrote:
    tphuang wrote:

    you have to consider that at MIA, AA is probably 60% connecting and 40% O&D whereas B6 is 80% O&D and 20% connecting at FLL.

    and evidence would say that B6 at FLL is a far more profitable operation than AA at MIA.


    What evidence?

    You’re also literally just throwing out random numbers. AA at MIA has historically been around 55%-60% local traffic.


    http://blueir.investproductions.com/~/m ... 2-2016.pdf
    check slide 32,
    B6 at 82%
    WN at 75%
    NK at 74%
    AA at 39%

    Feel free to not attack me in the future.
    Brickell305 wrote:
    Yes but we're not discussing profits so that part isn't relevant. Even at 40% O/D vs 80% for B6, if AA is flying to a destination 3x a day versus B6 flying there 4x a week, AA is taking significantly more O&D passengers to said destination than B6 is.

    you are picking one destination out of many. I'm simply pointing out that using number of flights without accounting for local numbers is not sufficient.


    What leisure/VFR destination would you like to pick? There are very few where levels of service between the two airlines is even close, in some instances, B6 is even third or fourth on the route behind AA, the local carrier on the opposite end and NK/WN and/or don't serve the route. I'll give you KIN/PAP/SDQ/SJU as markets where B6 is relatively strong but for each of those, there's a POS/BGI/GCM/NAS/BOG/LIM/HAV where they lag AA and in some instances NK/WN/the foreign flag carrier on the route as well.And that's not to add the various VFR/leisure markets that AA serves out of So. Fla on which B6 does not compete.
     
    tphuang
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    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:28 pm

    It depends. I find B6 serves good market share to places where there is a lot of demand out of South Florida itself vs places that require a lot of connection. In places where connections dominate, it's not going to be a location that B6 competes in. After all, B6 has much fewer gates at FLL than AA does at MIA. There is no sense competing in frequency in markets where connections significantly outweighs local demand.

    going back to the original point, given that FLL is in a rather undesirable location vs MIA, the fact that B6 can achieve such a market share while maintaining significant yield advantage vs WN/NK and getting comparable yield to AA in many cases show that they must be capturing a chunk of demand from places that are closer to MIA. Just look at routes like NYC/BOS/DCA/LAX/SFO for example.
     
    Brickell305
    Posts: 678
    Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:06 pm

    tphuang wrote:
    It depends. I find B6 serves good market share to places where there is a lot of demand out of South Florida itself vs places that require a lot of connection. In places where connections dominate, it's not going to be a location that B6 competes in. After all, B6 has much fewer gates at FLL than AA does at MIA. There is no sense competing in frequency in markets where connections significantly outweighs local demand.


    If that were the case, B6 would not also be lagging the foreign flag carriers to destinations like POS/NAS/GCM. Those carriers exist on O&D for those routes. The majority of traffic to/from So. Fla to each of those destinations is So. Fla originating (w/ the possible exception of POS but I'm fairly certain on that one as well and that is one destination where it's easy to isolate times of year where traffic is almost entirely So. Fla originating). How are they also able to serve those markets more than B6? If BW for example wasn't able to get a significant share of So. Fla originating traffic, it'd have to cut flights during carnival/Christmas seasons. Not only do they not shut down, they fly their peak schedule which is more than B6's service.

    tphuang wrote:
    going back to the original point, given that FLL is in a rather undesirable location vs MIA, the fact that B6 can achieve such a market share while maintaining significant yield advantage vs WN/NK and getting comparable yield to AA in many cases show that they must be capturing a chunk of demand from places that are closer to MIA. Just look at routes like NYC/BOS/DCA/LAX/SFO for example.


    Again, FLL is not "in a rather undesirable location vs MIA" especially when talking about VFR/leisure markets. For many people in northern Dade and southern Broward, the two are equidistant or pretty close to it. Someone who lives in Aventura isn't going to pick AA over B6 to fly to CUN because of distance from FLL. Again, FLL is right off of I-95/US-1 in the heart of the metro area. It's not like you're driving from Naples or Key West for hours in the middle of nowhere with nothing but a highway. You're in an urban, developed area with any and all amenities you could possibly need which is why, yet again, most use the airports interchangeably.
     
    tphuang
    Posts: 3229
    Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:34 pm

    Brickell305 wrote:
    tphuang wrote:
    It depends. I find B6 serves good market share to places where there is a lot of demand out of South Florida itself vs places that require a lot of connection. In places where connections dominate, it's not going to be a location that B6 competes in. After all, B6 has much fewer gates at FLL than AA does at MIA. There is no sense competing in frequency in markets where connections significantly outweighs local demand.


    If that were the case, B6 would not also be lagging the foreign flag carriers to destinations like POS/NAS/GCM. Those carriers exist on O&D for those routes. The majority of traffic to/from So. Fla to each of those destinations is So. Fla originating (w/ the possible exception of POS but I'm fairly certain on that one as well and that is one destination where it's easy to isolate times of year where traffic is almost entirely So. Fla originating). How are they also able to serve those markets more than B6? If BW for example wasn't able to get a significant share of So. Fla originating traffic, it'd have to cut flights during carnival/Christmas seasons. Not only do they not shut down, they fly their peak schedule which is more than B6's service.

    They don't have infinite aircraft around to keep adding to FLL. That's what I'm trying to get across. Being able to attract clients show up in terms of pricing power. Just having market share does not show pricing power.
    tphuang wrote:
    going back to the original point, given that FLL is in a rather undesirable location vs MIA, the fact that B6 can achieve such a market share while maintaining significant yield advantage vs WN/NK and getting comparable yield to AA in many cases show that they must be capturing a chunk of demand from places that are closer to MIA. Just look at routes like NYC/BOS/DCA/LAX/SFO for example.


    Again, FLL is not "in a rather undesirable location vs MIA" especially when talking about VFR/leisure markets. For many people in northern Dade and southern Broward, the two are equidistant or pretty close to it. Someone who lives in Aventura isn't going to pick AA over B6 to fly to CUN because of distance from FLL. Again, FLL is right off of I-95/US-1 in the heart of the metro area. It's not like you're driving from Naples or Key West for hours in the middle of nowhere with nothing but a highway. You're in an urban, developed area with any and all amenities you could possibly need which is why, yet again, most use the airports interchangeably.

    Do you have any evidence that these people are actually picking AA over B6 when both are priced similarly? Or are AA filling its cabins with connection itineraries and cheap tickets? Remember, FLL is very profitable for B6 and MIA isn't for AA. Domestic data shows B6 having quite a bit of pricing power out of south beach that you can't pick up just looking at number of flights per day. B6 is never going to win on that one due to its size.

    anyway, this is my last comment on this topic.
     
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    jfklganyc
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    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:03 pm

    For the American Tourist, FLL is the more desirable market.

    For the international tourist, MIA is preferred

    American family vacations haven’t involved Miami Beach since the 70s...they go to suburban, family friendly areas of Florida.

    If you live in the US, beyond your 20 something, hipster, gay friend, when was the last time you heard someone say “I’m going to Miami for a vacation?”

    When was the last time you heard a retiree say “I’m moving to Miami?” the Golden Girls?

    All of that traffic has moved North. FLL PBI and MCO have been the beneficiaries of that trend
     
    Brickell305
    Posts: 678
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    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:03 am

    jfklganyc wrote:
    For the American Tourist, FLL is the more desirable market.

    For the international tourist, MIA is preferred

    American family vacations haven’t involved Miami Beach since the 70s...they go to suburban, family friendly areas of Florida.

    If you live in the US, beyond your 20 something, hipster, gay friend, when was the last time you heard someone say “I’m going to Miami for a vacation?”

    When was the last time you heard a retiree say “I’m moving to Miami?” the Golden Girls?

    All of that traffic has moved North. FLL PBI and MCO have been the beneficiaries of that trend

    International visitors do prefer Miami to Fort Lauderdale but Miami still receives more domestic tourists than international. So the notion that Americans don’t vacation in Miami is also pure unsubstantiated nonsense.

    https://www.miamiandbeaches.com/getmedi ... 1.pdf.aspx
     
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    LAX772LR
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    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:21 am

    MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
    So it's odd the airport is as busy as it is when places like SNA, ONT, etc aren't.

    Have you ever been to SNA or ONT? ...nothing's odd about that disparity at all.

    SNA is tiny, can't handle large aircraft, and the short runway restricts even the use of 739s/A321s for longer flights.
    With LAX an hour to the north, and SAN an hour to the south, it's no real surprise how localized the use of SNA is.

    ONT has historically had trouble sustaining even the likes of ATL and ORD, because it's (by traffic, not distance) up to an hour and a half away from anywhere that non-locals would ever want to be.... LAX is muchhh closer to the likes of Hollywood, Beverly Hills, Malibu, Santa Monica, Downtown, KoreaTown, all the major colleges, etc than ONT.



    jfklganyc wrote:
    American family vacations haven’t involved Miami Beach since the 70s...they go to suburban, family friendly areas of Florida.
    If you live in the US, beyond your 20 something, hipster, gay friend, when was the last time you heard someone say “I’m going to Miami for a vacation?”

    What on earth are you talking about??


    Brickell305 wrote:
    So the notion that Americans don’t vacation in Miami is also pure unsubstantiated nonsense.

    :checkmark: :checkmark:
    I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
     
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    jfklganyc
    Posts: 5472
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    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:38 pm




    Large emphasis on international numbers and NYC.

    As I said above, your family vacation tourists from Ohio skew heavily to FLL and points North.

    Miami is attracting international or cosmopolitan, city-types.

    The respective growth over the last 30 years at each airport reflects this.
     
    Brickell305
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    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:11 pm

    jfklganyc wrote:



    Large emphasis on international numbers and NYC.

    As I said above, your family vacation tourists from Ohio skew heavily to FLL and points North.

    Miami is attracting international or cosmopolitan, city-types.

    The respective growth over the last 30 years at each airport reflects this.



    65% of overnight visitors are domestic. 4.5M are from Florida, 2.03M are from the Northeast, 1.98M are from the South (excluding FL), 1.26M are from the Midwest. Yes, NYC by itself does represent a large chunk of domestic visitors but Miami does well from other areas too. If you look at tourist arrivals for Fort Lauderdale, domestically, they skew towards the very same cities.

    https://datastudio.google.com/reporting ... /page/wy9Y

    It really doesn't take much to simply say you were mistaken and move on.
    Last edited by Brickell305 on Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
     
    2travel2know2
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    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:14 pm

    While it could be quite convenient for many to have BA @ FLL (a couple of days per week) as a compliment to BA @ MIA, if the numbers for BA LGW-FLL aren't there even for a high-season only operation, of course, BA's better to use that frame in a more profitable route.
    For BA, seems FLL to MIA can't be compared to EWR to JFK or BWI to IAD.
    Perhaps, that'd be the same reason why PVD doesn't get BA A319 ETOPS from LGW. ;)
    I'm not on CM's payroll.
     
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    jfklganyc
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    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:07 pm

    Brickell305 wrote:
    jfklganyc wrote:



    Large emphasis on international numbers and NYC.

    As I said above, your family vacation tourists from Ohio skew heavily to FLL and points North.

    Miami is attracting international or cosmopolitan, city-types.

    The respective growth over the last 30 years at each airport reflects this.



    65% of overnight visitors are domestic. 4.5M are from Florida, 2.03M are from the Northeast, 1.98M are from the South (excluding FL), 1.26M are from the Midwest. Yes, NYC by itself does represent a large chunk of domestic visitors but Miami does well from other areas too. If you look at tourist arrivals for Fort Lauderdale, domestically, they skew towards the very same cities.

    https://datastudio.google.com/reporting ... /page/wy9Y

    It really doesn't take much to simply say you were mistaken and move on.


    I would say I was wrong if I was wrong. I dont need to take a sharpie to a Hurricane Track to prove a point.

    Miami skews towards international visitors.

    Domestic visitors skew towards other parts of Florida.

    Take your Florida visitors coming for an evening out in the city out of the equation. They spend money, but the vast majority arent on an extended vacation to the city.

    If you are an international airline, you belong at Miami.

    If you are domestic airline other than American, you belong in Fort Lauderdale.

    That is largely what has played out.
     
    cledaybuck
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    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:25 pm

    Brickell305 wrote:
    jfklganyc wrote:



    Large emphasis on international numbers and NYC.

    As I said above, your family vacation tourists from Ohio skew heavily to FLL and points North.

    Miami is attracting international or cosmopolitan, city-types.

    The respective growth over the last 30 years at each airport reflects this.



    65% of overnight visitors are domestic. 4.5M are from Florida, 2.03M are from the Northeast, 1.98M are from the South (excluding FL), 1.26M are from the Midwest. Yes, NYC by itself does represent a large chunk of domestic visitors but Miami does well from other areas too. If you look at tourist arrivals for Fort Lauderdale, domestically, they skew towards the very same cities.

    https://datastudio.google.com/reporting ... /page/wy9Y

    It really doesn't take much to simply say you were mistaken and move on.

    The broad generalization is that the NE goes to the east coast and the Midwest goes to the gulf coast. This generally holds true if you look at frequencies, with the Red Sox helping skew the numbers from BOS to RSW.
    As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
     
    Brickell305
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    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:34 pm

    jfklganyc wrote:
    Brickell305 wrote:
    jfklganyc wrote:


    Large emphasis on international numbers and NYC.

    As I said above, your family vacation tourists from Ohio skew heavily to FLL and points North.

    Miami is attracting international or cosmopolitan, city-types.

    The respective growth over the last 30 years at each airport reflects this.



    65% of overnight visitors are domestic. 4.5M are from Florida, 2.03M are from the Northeast, 1.98M are from the South (excluding FL), 1.26M are from the Midwest. Yes, NYC by itself does represent a large chunk of domestic visitors but Miami does well from other areas too. If you look at tourist arrivals for Fort Lauderdale, domestically, they skew towards the very same cities.

    https://datastudio.google.com/reporting ... /page/wy9Y

    It really doesn't take much to simply say you were mistaken and move on.


    I would say I was wrong if I was wrong. I dont need to take a sharpie to a Hurricane Track to prove a point.

    Miami skews towards international visitors.

    Domestic visitors skew towards other parts of Florida.

    Take your Florida visitors coming for an evening out in the city out of the equation. They spend money, but the vast majority arent on an extended vacation to the city.

    If you are an international airline, you belong at Miami.

    If you are domestic airline other than American, you belong in Fort Lauderdale.

    That is largely what has played out.

    Except that yet again, there are MORE domestic OVERNIGHT visitors to Miami than there are international ones and that's excluding Florida numbers. Yes, international visitors do tend to stay for longer but that's likely due to the fact that they:

    a) have longer vacation breaks generally
    b) in many instances have traveled from further away

    Secondly, MIA gets more domestic passengers than international ones. See here: https://news.miami-airport.com/mia-surp ... irst-time/

    Apart from that however, there are many people who fly in to FLL and vacation in Miami. There's no wall between Broward and Dade counties that stops people from doing that. As I have pointed out several times, the LCCs/ULCCs at FLL have stimulated demand to that airport domestically and due to the wider array of domestic carriers there, many people will fly into FLL even if their final destination is in the Miami area. The reverse also happens especially with international passengers who don't have a direct option to Fort Lauderdale/Broward. They will fly into MIA even if their final destination is somewhere in the Broward area because again there's absolutely nothing preventing people from flying into either airport and crossing county lines to the other.

    Again. Is Miami preferred by international visitors compared to Fort Lauderdale? Yes. Is the percentage of international visitors to Miami higher than the percentage of int'l visitors to Ft. Lauderdale? Yes. However, the notion that Americans don't vacation in Miami is absurd on the face of it especially because AGAIN Miami receives more domestic overnight visitors than international ones.
     
    Brickell305
    Posts: 678
    Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:41 pm

    cledaybuck wrote:
    Brickell305 wrote:
    jfklganyc wrote:


    Large emphasis on international numbers and NYC.

    As I said above, your family vacation tourists from Ohio skew heavily to FLL and points North.

    Miami is attracting international or cosmopolitan, city-types.

    The respective growth over the last 30 years at each airport reflects this.



    65% of overnight visitors are domestic. 4.5M are from Florida, 2.03M are from the Northeast, 1.98M are from the South (excluding FL), 1.26M are from the Midwest. Yes, NYC by itself does represent a large chunk of domestic visitors but Miami does well from other areas too. If you look at tourist arrivals for Fort Lauderdale, domestically, they skew towards the very same cities.

    https://datastudio.google.com/reporting ... /page/wy9Y

    It really doesn't take much to simply say you were mistaken and move on.

    The broad generalization is that the NE goes to the east coast and the Midwest goes to the gulf coast. This generally holds true if you look at frequencies, with the Red Sox helping skew the numbers from BOS to RSW.

    No, his broad generalization was that Miami is for international tourists while domestic tourists go to Fort Lauderdale and other points north. Anyone who has been to Miami would immediately know better. When pointed out that Miami gets more domestic overnight visitors than international ones, he then tried to say well that's just New York as if being form a cosmopolitan city somehow made them less American. I then pointed out the numbers by region which show Miami getting pretty similar numbers from the NE (including NYC) and the South (excluding FL) and also a sizable number of visitors from the Midwest.
     
    User avatar
    jfklganyc
    Posts: 5472
    Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

    Re: British Airways cancels Fort Lauderdale service

    Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:32 pm

    Use 17 million for total overnight stays.

    The midwest number is 2 million.

    For reference, the International number is 6 million.

    Domestic visitors were just over 6 million, of which 1.2 million were from NYC.


    You take out NYC (which I accounted for when I said your cosmopolitan city traveller) and you are down to 5 million domestic travelers vs a higher number of International visitors.

    You want to include Florida people? The domestic number shoots up

    Miami is a Cosmopolitan international market. It skews away from Americans taking family vacations.

    It is heavily favored towards Latins, Europeans, and city people looking to enjoy another city and its beach.

    But I am not reinventing the wheel here. The market speaks for itself… That is why over the last three decades every domestic airline except American has focused a domestic operation in FLL.

    It is cheaper to use, it is closer to the cruise ships, it is closer to the Florida most Americans choose to vacation in.

    Heck, the same can be said of the growth at Orlando airport versus Miami.

    Joe and Joanna and their 2 kids from Rochester dont go on family vacations to a motel in Miami Beach . 40 years ago, they did. Today, those people go to Cocoa beach or Sarasota or Vero beach or St Pete.

    There has been a marked shift in the demographic of the tourist that goes to Miami over the course of my lifetime.

    Again, the operations at the airports reflect that.

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