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sfo1989
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FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:36 pm

We live on the south side of San Francisco and regularly see the large planes take off from 28L/R south of San Bruno mountain. Last night, FIN12 took an extremely odd departure path unlike any we've ever observed, turning right much sooner than normal and flying directly over San Bruno mountain (rather than around, as normal):

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/FIN ... /KSFO/EFHK

any ideas what might cause this?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:14 pm

That’s called the TRUKN departure. Narrowbodies fly it pretty regular but Heavys usually don’t. Recently the Departure was banned by United for 777/787 aircraft but before it was banned I flew it on a domestic flight in a 787.
 
sfo1989
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:39 pm

Interesting -- thanks for the info. I've also been on the narrowbody departures off those runways, but usually they turn much sooner than this flight did. This one went directly over the mountain, near the tallest point. Norcal Departure asked them if they had a problem with their Flight Management System, so didn't seem to be expecting it:
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/koak/ ... -0230Z.mp3
 
dfwjim1
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:47 pm

Isn't this route dangerous in the event of an engine failure?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:55 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Isn't this route dangerous in the event of an engine failure?


No because if you have an engine failure you fly out the 290 radial of the SFO VOR down the gap to the ocean.
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:44 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
That’s called the TRUKN departure. Narrowbodies fly it pretty regular but Heavys usually don’t. Recently the Departure was banned by United for 777/787 aircraft but before it was banned I flew it on a domestic flight in a 787.
Why did United ban it for 777/787
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:52 pm

SuseJ772 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
That’s called the TRUKN departure. Narrowbodies fly it pretty regular but Heavys usually don’t. Recently the Departure was banned by United for 777/787 aircraft but before it was banned I flew it on a domestic flight in a 787.
Why did United ban it for 777/787


I don’t know just showed up in the notes one day.....The 777/787/756 also can’t do the NITE off off 28L/R and portions of the SAHEY off 10L/R. Just to be clear the only runways we can’t fly the TRUKN are 28L/R. We can fly it off the 1s
 
32andBelow
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:45 am

You know if a plane is climbing well and they make it over the MVA the radar controller can give them a vector in any direction
 
b747400erf
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:02 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
That’s called the TRUKN departure. Narrowbodies fly it pretty regular but Heavys usually don’t. Recently the Departure was banned by United for 777/787 aircraft but before it was banned I flew it on a domestic flight in a 787.

No that is not the TRUKN departure. Read the flight plan. This is the departure linked from airnav.com https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1905/00375SNTNA.PDF
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:07 pm

b747400erf wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
That’s called the TRUKN departure. Narrowbodies fly it pretty regular but Heavys usually don’t. Recently the Departure was banned by United for 777/787 aircraft but before it was banned I flew it on a domestic flight in a 787.

No that is not the TRUKN departure. Read the flight plan. This is the departure linked from airnav.com https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1905/00375SNTNA.PDF


Yeah SNTNA is what Heavys usually fly........guess they screwed up, they may have accidentally flew the TRUKN.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:27 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
Isn't this route dangerous in the event of an engine failure?


No because if you have an engine failure you fly out the 290 radial of the SFO VOR down the gap to the ocean.


If an engine fails you fly up the gap through Colma and Daly City. What do you do then? Fly down the coast and back over to land on the 28s? Or do you turn east and land at OAK?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:36 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
Isn't this route dangerous in the event of an engine failure?


No because if you have an engine failure you fly out the 290 radial of the SFO VOR down the gap to the ocean.


If an engine fails you fly up the gap through Colma and Daly City. What do you do then? Fly down the coast and back over to land on the 28s? Or do you turn east and land at OAK?



Take up a hold out over the water deal with the problem and dump gas if needed. If the wether allows come back to SFO for the 28s.....if not go to your Takeoff alternate.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:40 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

No because if you have an engine failure you fly out the 290 radial of the SFO VOR down the gap to the ocean.


If an engine fails you fly up the gap through Colma and Daly City. What do you do then? Fly down the coast and back over to land on the 28s? Or do you turn east and land at OAK?



Take up a hold out over the water deal with the problem and dump gas if needed. If the wether allows come back to SFO for the 28s.....if not go to your Takeoff alternate.


What’s your usual takeoff alternate for SFO? I’m guessing if it’s foggy you go to SMF?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:49 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

If an engine fails you fly up the gap through Colma and Daly City. What do you do then? Fly down the coast and back over to land on the 28s? Or do you turn east and land at OAK?



Take up a hold out over the water deal with the problem and dump gas if needed. If the wether allows come back to SFO for the 28s.....if not go to your Takeoff alternate.


What’s your usual takeoff alternate for SFO? I’m guessing if it’s foggy you go to SMF?


It has to be within 400 miles still air flight time, so there are a lot of options even down to LAX. I haven’t needed one in a long time so I can’t remember the last one I got. Since the 787 can autoland CATIII LAND 3 with a single engine there isn’t many times we are required to have one.
 
barney captain
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:37 pm

sfo1989 wrote:
Interesting -- thanks for the info. I've also been on the narrowbody departures off those runways, but usually they turn much sooner than this flight did. This one went directly over the mountain, near the tallest point. Norcal Departure asked them if they had a problem with their Flight Management System, so didn't seem to be expecting it:
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/koak/ ... -0230Z.mp3


Starts at 26:15 and then at 29:15 the question about the nav was asked - I couldn't understand the answer.

Clearly some sort of NAV issue.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
gon2fly
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:49 pm

There is a gotcha in all of the SFO SIDS when ATC sends you your clearance electronically and offers you a 'LOAD' prompt. In this case I wouldn't be surprised if they were cleared via the SNTNA 2 to DEDHD......but..... If you select the load prompt that is offered, it gets you off the runway and sends you directly to DEDHD. If you don't verify the loaded route on your FMC, you will not catch that KYNNG KRLOS SNTNA, etc. have all been deleted. I'll always go in and re-load the FMS departure and ensure the DEDHD transition is selected, along with all of the enroute waypoints between the runway and DEDHD (in this case).
It's a huge gotcha. Willing to bet a buck this crew loaded the route straight to DEDHD, which carried them over San Bruno and not over KYNNG KRLOS and SNTNA.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:58 pm

gon2fly wrote:
There is a gotcha in all of the SFO SIDS when ATC sends you your clearance electronically and offers you a 'LOAD' prompt. In this case I wouldn't be surprised if they were cleared via the SNTNA 2 to DEDHD......but..... If you select the load prompt that is offered, it gets you off the runway and sends you directly to DEDHD. If you don't verify the loaded route on your FMC, you will not catch that KYNNG KRLOS SNTNA, etc. have all been deleted. I'll always go in and re-load the FMS departure and ensure the DEDHD transition is selected, along with all of the enroute waypoints between the runway and DEDHD (in this case).
It's a huge gotcha. Willing to bet a buck this crew loaded the route straight to DEDHD, which carried them over San Bruno and not over KYNNG KRLOS and SNTNA.


Good point! When are they going to fix that? I’m so used to fixing it I forgot it was an issue.
 
stealth777
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:45 pm

Actually, if you listen to the audio the crew checks in with NorCal after departure which is routine. NorCal then clears them to 10,000 feet (normal so far and still flying roughly the runway heading). We can't hear the transmission from NorCal but the readback was to fly a left turn to 280 (so a small correction for an unknown reason). Then the next transmission we hear is NorCal clearing them to 19,000 feet and to fly a heading of 030 (which is where the right turn comes from). About 45 seconds later they were cleared by NorCal direct to DEDHD. So they did not botch the TRUKN departure, looks like it was deviation because of...and I couldn't understand what the crew said about the FMS issue. Still a bit weird that NorCal gave them the 030 heading so early on.
 
mcg
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:47 pm

Slightly off topic, but how many Grateful Dead themed navigation points are there? Perhaps JERI or BOBI or FILL OR IIS or MAGNOLYA or DRUMZ or PLAAIN?
 
timz
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:15 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
That’s called the TRUKN departure.

The TRUKN departure isn't intended to go over San Bruno Mountain. It says right turn to TRUKN (i.e. Oakland airport) on reaching 520 ft altitude -- guess for a heavy that would be around the west end of the runway.

DEDHD is a few miles west of Vacaville, so that inadvertant fix deletion sounds likely.
 
m007j
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:03 pm

stealth777 wrote:
Actually, if you listen to the audio the crew checks in with NorCal after departure which is routine. NorCal then clears them to 10,000 feet (normal so far and still flying roughly the runway heading). We can't hear the transmission from NorCal but the readback was to fly a left turn to 280 (so a small correction for an unknown reason). Then the next transmission we hear is NorCal clearing them to 19,000 feet and to fly a heading of 030 (which is where the right turn comes from). About 45 seconds later they were cleared by NorCal direct to DEDHD. So they did not botch the TRUKN departure, looks like it was deviation because of...and I couldn't understand what the crew said about the FMS issue. Still a bit weird that NorCal gave them the 030 heading so early on.


They were on the SNTNA2, and certainly looks like they dropped the waypoints that take you around the mountain as discussed by gon2fly upthread. They had begun a right turn (probably leaving the 520' INTC point off the departure end, crossing over the go-around path for 28R) which caused departure to correct the heading. A left turn back to 280 (or 270 to follow the departure back to KYNNG) would probably put them right over the mountaintop, so a turn direct to DEDHD would have solved the terrain problem and a missing waypoint problem.

His response to Norcal's challenge about the FMC is "We...Somebody said on course," likely referring to the mistaken assumption that he could resume own navigation. What he probably didn't realize that own navigation was flawed.
 
Q
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:11 pm

Some 20 years ago, From SFO RWY 28L/R took off on United B747-400 almost slice house roof. Co-pilot was flying not paying attention heading off course little bit to far right course while climbing it was heavy climbing full fuel load on way to SYD. Remember that story in the past?

Q
 
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WesternDC6
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:22 pm

I remember the incident involving United Airlines Flight 863...a B747 which departed off of 28R in 1998. There was an engine failure on takeoff and the aircraft narrowly missed hitting San Bruno Mountain as the pilots were dealing with the engine out situation. I think United initiated a some training changes due to this incident.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ai ... Flight_863

BTW....my first post after lurking here forever...
 
Georgetown
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:34 pm

Q wrote:
Some 20 years ago, From SFO RWY 28L/R took off on United B747-400 almost slice house roof. Co-pilot was flying not paying attention heading off course little bit to far right course while climbing it was heavy climbing full fuel load on way to SYD. Remember that story in the past?

Q


United 863. Yes there was much more to it than that. The plane lost an engine on departure, the first officer, who was the PF at the time, had only done one departure in the year prior, and essentially made a series of mistakes that almost took them into San Bruno mountain. United treated it as if it were a crash and revamped much of their policy on the matter.

Link to an article here: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-high-fly ... ith-death/

There’s also a few old threads on it on this site.
Let's go Hoyas!
 
chrisair
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:37 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
gon2fly wrote:
There is a gotcha in all of the SFO SIDS when ATC sends you your clearance electronically and offers you a 'LOAD' prompt. In this case I wouldn't be surprised if they were cleared via the SNTNA 2 to DEDHD......but..... If you select the load prompt that is offered, it gets you off the runway and sends you directly to DEDHD. If you don't verify the loaded route on your FMC, you will not catch that KYNNG KRLOS SNTNA, etc. have all been deleted. I'll always go in and re-load the FMS departure and ensure the DEDHD transition is selected, along with all of the enroute waypoints between the runway and DEDHD (in this case).
It's a huge gotcha. Willing to bet a buck this crew loaded the route straight to DEDHD, which carried them over San Bruno and not over KYNNG KRLOS and SNTNA.


Good point! When are they going to fix that? I’m so used to fixing it I forgot it was an issue.


Regardless of what happened with the Finnair flight, how on earth does something like the electronic clearance delivery bug happen and apparently continue to happen? Obviously you need to check every waypoint, but it just seems strange to me that a major airport has a bug in their electronic clearance delivery that continues to occur?
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:04 am

m007j wrote:
stealth777 wrote:
Actually, if you listen to the audio the crew checks in with NorCal after departure which is routine. NorCal then clears them to 10,000 feet (normal so far and still flying roughly the runway heading). We can't hear the transmission from NorCal but the readback was to fly a left turn to 280 (so a small correction for an unknown reason). Then the next transmission we hear is NorCal clearing them to 19,000 feet and to fly a heading of 030 (which is where the right turn comes from). About 45 seconds later they were cleared by NorCal direct to DEDHD. So they did not botch the TRUKN departure, looks like it was deviation because of...and I couldn't understand what the crew said about the FMS issue. Still a bit weird that NorCal gave them the 030 heading so early on.


They were on the SNTNA2, and certainly looks like they dropped the waypoints that take you around the mountain as discussed by gon2fly upthread. They had begun a right turn (probably leaving the 520' INTC point off the departure end, crossing over the go-around path for 28R) which caused departure to correct the heading. A left turn back to 280 (or 270 to follow the departure back to KYNNG) would probably put them right over the mountaintop, so a turn direct to DEDHD would have solved the terrain problem and a missing waypoint problem.

His response to Norcal's challenge about the FMC is "We...Somebody said on course," likely referring to the mistaken assumption that he could resume own navigation. What he probably didn't realize that own navigation was flawed.


How long have jets been doing the right-hand "Candlestick Climb" from 28L/R? Same with the immediate left U-turn off 1L/R. I feel like these were turboprop-only departure paths back in the day.

Q wrote:
Some 20 years ago, From SFO RWY 28L/R took off on United B747-400 almost slice house roof. Co-pilot was flying not paying attention heading off course little bit to far right course while climbing it was heavy climbing full fuel load on way to SYD. Remember that story in the past?


Indeed this was a big deal when it happened in '98. Good learnings came from it not just for UA but the industry.

mcg wrote:
Slightly off topic, but how many Grateful Dead themed navigation points are there? Perhaps JERI or BOBI or FILL OR IIS or MAGNOLYA or DRUMZ or PLAAIN?


Don't forget the Carlos Santana waypoints as well. Good stuff to pay homage to San Francisco-based music artists.
 
timz
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Re: FIN12 Odd SFO Departure Over San Bruno Mountain

Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:09 am

phatfarmlines wrote:
How long have jets been doing the right-hand "Candlestick Climb" from 28L/R?

Who knows how many decades -- three at least, probably four? Five miles visibility required.

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