Page 1 of 1

KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:38 am
by jetskipper
In the last two weeks KLM 611/612 has been operated with a mix of 744, 772 and 789 aircraft. This seems like an extremely inefficient use of crew resources. Alternating types and especially the one off 789 would cause needless deadheads and extended layovers. Is this the only way they can handle the gradual removal off the 744 fleet?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/KLM ... ctivityLog

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:25 am
by FGITD
I've worked with a number of international carriers, and KLM is interesting due to their very unique crew rotations.

They will gladly shuffle the crews around after they've left. Crew will arrive in Toronto, and overnight the decision is made that due to an aircraft swap, they now need that crew in IAD for the return, and that the crew currently in ORD will fly to Toronto to do the original return.

They use non daily stations to supplement the crews as necessary.

Also it seems KL 777 pilots are qualified for 787 as well so that simplifies things.

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:48 am
by 747classic
Scheduled ORD will be served with a mix of 744combi and 772 aircraft.

PH-BFT (744combi) was out of action for a couple of days due an unscheduled engine change at Seoul.
See : http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4c7265af&opt=0

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:24 am
by factsonly
jetskipper wrote:
In the last two weeks KLM 611/612 has been operated with a mix of 744, 772 and 789 aircraft. This seems like an extremely inefficient use of crew resources. Alternating types and especially the one off 789 would cause needless deadheads and extended layovers. Is this the only way they can handle the gradual removal off the 744 fleet?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/KLM ... ctivityLog


This is a non-issue, as KLM cockpit crews are qualified for:

- B747 - crew
- B777/B789 - crew

So operating a single B789 in between B777 has zero impact on scheduling.

While in addition.......the profit of right sizing aircraft capacity to demand over the network is multiple times the cost of a crew overnight.

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:31 am
by b747400erf
jetskipper wrote:
In the last two weeks KLM 611/612 has been operated with a mix of 744, 772 and 789 aircraft. This seems like an extremely inefficient use of crew resources. Alternating types and especially the one off 789 would cause needless deadheads and extended layovers. Is this the only way they can handle the gradual removal off the 744 fleet?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/KLM ... ctivityLog

The 777 and 787 are the same type rating.

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:43 am
by bhxalex
They're very effective at short term scheduling in accordance with demand. Both the longhaul and shorthaul fleets see this.

AMS-LHR being a perfect example, everything from E75s to 739s turn up each day. KL1002 has been a varied mix of 737/738/739 recently & KL1028 has been a mix of E75/E90/737 in the last week.

Whereas as some airlines religiously stick to one type on a route (QR 788s at BHX every day for 3 years straight, no subs or swaps, until recently).

If it maximises profit for KLM, then good on them.

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:25 am
by Flanker7
jetskipper wrote:
In the last two weeks KLM 611/612 has been operated with a mix of 744, 772 and 789 aircraft. This seems like an extremely inefficient use of crew resources. Alternating types and especially the one off 789 would cause needless deadheads and extended layovers. Is this the only way they can handle the gradual removal off the 744 fleet?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/KLM ... ctivityLog

Cabin crew are typerated for 747,777,787 so it's no issue at all. There's hardly any deadheading out of Chicago at best you get some crewmembers who stay a day longer.

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:31 am
by Flanker7
FGITD wrote:
I've worked with a number of international carriers, and KLM is interesting due to their very unique crew rotations.

They will gladly shuffle the crews around after they've left. Crew will arrive in Toronto, and overnight the decision is made that due to an aircraft swap, they now need that crew in IAD for the return, and that the crew currently in ORD will fly to Toronto to do the original return.

They use non daily stations to supplement the crews as necessary.

Also it seems KL 777 pilots are qualified for 787 as well so that simplifies things.


They actually use stations like JFK where they have multiple flights a day to supplement other stations if neccessary. They have more crew available so shuffling around makes it a lot easier then a non daily station.

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:07 am
by jetskipper
factsonly wrote:
jetskipper wrote:
In the last two weeks KLM 611/612 has been operated with a mix of 744, 772 and 789 aircraft. This seems like an extremely inefficient use of crew resources. Alternating types and especially the one off 789 would cause needless deadheads and extended layovers. Is this the only way they can handle the gradual removal off the 744 fleet?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/KLM ... ctivityLog


This is a non-issue, as KLM cockpit crews are qualified for:

- B747 - crew
- B777/B789 - crew

So operating a single B789 in between B777 has zero impact on scheduling.

While in addition.......the profit of right sizing aircraft capacity to demand over the network is multiple times the cost of a crew overnight.


I was not aware KLM staffed their 777/787 as one fleet. UA and AA staff them as different aircraft fleet.

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:27 am
by MIflyer12
jetskipper wrote:
In the last two weeks KLM 611/612 has been operated with a mix of 744, 772 and 789 aircraft. This seems like an extremely inefficient use of crew resources. Alternating types and especially the one off 789 would cause needless deadheads and extended layovers.


I would weigh what you allege as inefficient crew use (understanding common 777/789 ratings and cross-trained cabin crew) against inefficiencies of cancelling a flight or of having more reserve aircraft. KL sees it my way. :)

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:33 am
by jetskipper
MIflyer12 wrote:
jetskipper wrote:
In the last two weeks KLM 611/612 has been operated with a mix of 744, 772 and 789 aircraft. This seems like an extremely inefficient use of crew resources. Alternating types and especially the one off 789 would cause needless deadheads and extended layovers.


I would weigh what you allege as inefficient crew use (understanding common 777/789 ratings and cross-trained cabin crew) against inefficiencies of cancelling a flight or of having more reserve aircraft. KL sees it my way. :)


I understand that cabin crews are cross-trained. My knowledge deficiency came from my notion that EU carries would operate their 787 and 777 fleets similar to US carriers. I saw the one off 789 flight and thought that would have required pre-positioning a 787 crew days before the return, but since it can be flown by a 777/787 qualified crew, no issues.

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:58 pm
by usa4624
My flights on 611/612 in December 2019 and Jan 2020 have been changed to a 787. Has the 747 combi been redirected from Chicago permanently?

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:37 pm
by FB330
Maybe connected, but the 747 is now redirected to India instead of a 777 later this year. In fact if you check routes on line, you’ll see KLM has just changed many of its types for later this year.

Re: type rating; are cabin crew rated on the A330 along with other types?

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:52 pm
by Flanker7
FB330 wrote:
Maybe connected, but the 747 is now redirected to India instead of a 777 later this year. In fact if you check routes on line, you’ll see KLM has just changed many of its types for later this year.

Re: type rating; are cabin crew rated on the A330 along with other types?


Yes they are, there are various groups who fly certain types. You have a 747,777,787 A330 group cabin crew fly all these and only long haul. There is a 737, 747,777,A330 group, fly Europe and long haul. So yes crews are rated on multiple types.

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:00 pm
by usa4624
Just found this: https://simpleflying.com/klm-747-retirement/ - Retiring 1 747 Combi takes out 20% of the fleet.

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:25 am
by usa4624
Answered my own question - thanks to http://www.routesonline.com.

Amsterdam – Chicago O’Hare eff 27OCT19 787-9 replaces 747-400COMBI, 5 weekly
Amsterdam – Chicago eff 30MAR20 4 of 7 weekly operated by 787-9, replacing 777-200ER

So scheduled KLM 747 service will end in Chicago on October 26 2019.

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:17 am
by Acey559
usa4624 wrote:
Answered my own question - thanks to http://www.routesonline.com.

Amsterdam – Chicago O’Hare eff 27OCT19 787-9 replaces 747-400COMBI, 5 weekly
Amsterdam – Chicago eff 30MAR20 4 of 7 weekly operated by 787-9, replacing 777-200ER

So scheduled KLM 747 service will end in Chicago on October 26 2019.


Sad. Seems like they’ve been flying 747s of some variant or another into Chicago forever. It’s only a matter of time until they’re all gone, but doesn’t make it any easier.

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:22 am
by 76er
Just out of curiosity: what type of cargo is KL giving up on the ORD route when main deck freight space is no longer offered?

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:04 am
by Iluvtofly
bhxalex wrote:
They're very effective at short term scheduling in accordance with demand. Both the longhaul and shorthaul fleets see this.

AMS-LHR being a perfect example, everything from E75s to 739s turn up each day. KL1002 has been a varied mix of 737/738/739 recently & KL1028 has been a mix of E75/E90/737 in the last week.

Whereas as some airlines religiously stick to one type on a route (QR 788s at BHX every day for 3 years straight, no subs or swaps, until recently).

If it maximises profit for KLM, then good on them.


This is a completely different ball game ...... there are no layovers in LHR these are all turnaround flights ..... so not the same situation at all.

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:32 am
by Flanker7
Iluvtofly wrote:
bhxalex wrote:
They're very effective at short term scheduling in accordance with demand. Both the longhaul and shorthaul fleets see this.

AMS-LHR being a perfect example, everything from E75s to 739s turn up each day. KL1002 has been a varied mix of 737/738/739 recently & KL1028 has been a mix of E75/E90/737 in the last week.

Whereas as some airlines religiously stick to one type on a route (QR 788s at BHX every day for 3 years straight, no subs or swaps, until recently).

If it maximises profit for KLM, then good on them.


This is a completely different ball game ...... there are no layovers in LHR these are all turnaround flights ..... so not the same situation at all.


LHR is a layover actually.

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:37 am
by PietPiloot
Some facts here to share:

- KLM cabin crew are all certified to fly three different aircraft types.
- KLM B777 pilots can apply after a year of experience to add the B787 to their certification to fly it combined.
- KLM has usually one or two "swap" stations in North America to be able to change types on an adhoc basis. JFK is always a swap station, and others can ben IAD or YYZ. This summer it is YYZ and JFK, but also Montreal is officially allocated to be able to swap between A330 and B777 if it is needed for whatever reason.
- KLM pilots who have a layover in YYZ or JFK can be send to any other North American station if needed for an aircraft change.
- ORD is gradually changing from B747 to B777/B787. Pilots therefore have now 3,4 and 5 day layovers in ORD which will probably reduce to 3 and 4 days at the end of the summer.
- This winter the B747 can be seen in LAX/SFO/JFK and probably YYZ as the only US/Canadian stations.

Re: KLM 611/612 AMS-ORD

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:58 pm
by Amsterdam
Iluvtofly wrote:
bhxalex wrote:
They're very effective at short term scheduling in accordance with demand. Both the longhaul and shorthaul fleets see this.

AMS-LHR being a perfect example, everything from E75s to 739s turn up each day. KL1002 has been a varied mix of 737/738/739 recently & KL1028 has been a mix of E75/E90/737 in the last week.

Whereas as some airlines religiously stick to one type on a route (QR 788s at BHX every day for 3 years straight, no subs or swaps, until recently).

If it maximises profit for KLM, then good on them.


This is a completely different ball game ...... there are no layovers in LHR these are all turnaround flights ..... so not the same situation at all.


KLM has layovers at LHR