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keesje
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A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:33 am

It's the same aircraft that tested the LEAP before. Probably the easiest because it's fully equipped test aircraft.

https://samchui.com/2019/04/26/airbus-a319neo-performs-maiden-flight/#.XMampWgzbcs

The order book is very limited, Avianca being the main customer and some ACJ's / undisclosed.

Commonality with the large global A320 fleets & infrastructure is a plus.

But e.g. the A220-300 is much lighter & cheaper, which will probably limit aircraft sales.
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:44 am

As per A's official IG account, the very first A319N-CJ has made its maiden flight, IIRC some two or three days ago.
I think that the natural evolution of the A319 will be the Neo version, it will be quite easy IMHO, or not?
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:50 am

keesje wrote:
Commonality with the large global A320 fleets & infrastructure is a plus.

But e.g. the A220-300 is much lighter & cheaper, which will probably limit aircraft sales.


The former is the key. For airlines that want the size of the A319 but don't want a new type of A220 for simplicity. A major selling point to airlines with large (or seven small) A320ceo family planes.
 
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:51 am

Yes, the A319NEO is the A318 of the NEO series. Kind of surprised they didn't cancel it like the A350-800.
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:01 am

In total, I think 3 A319 Neo's have been made, 2 for delivery, and 1 about to start assembly (not including the prototype)
 
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:26 am

keesje wrote:
It's the same aircraft that tested the LEAP before. Probably the easiest because it's fully equipped test aircraft.

https://samchui.com/2019/04/26/airbus-a319neo-performs-maiden-flight/#.XMampWgzbcs

The order book is very limited, Avianca being the main customer and some ACJ's / undisclosed.

Commonality with the large global A320 fleets & infrastructure is a plus.

But e.g. the A220-300 is much lighter & cheaper, which will probably limit aircraft sales.


I am hoping the 319 NEO gets some love. I am very fond of the aircraft. Although the 320 is extremely capable etc etc, the 319 still remains a bit of hot-rod capable of performances the bigger brother cannot perform that are useful for special missions and more troublesome airports. The A220/300 is lighter and probably cheaper to operate, but those airlines who already operate the 32S family probably don't want the extra hassle of another type...Cue SK, LH, AF, DL...

I am wondering if the 319 cabin actually has enough real estate length-wise to make it a 162-seater by adding one extra row (slimlines of course)....The exits are already there, and this could somewhat help its case a bit (see what Boeing has done with the -7MAX)....
 
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:42 am

Dutchy wrote:
Yes, the A319NEO is the A318 of the NEO series. Kind of surprised they didn't cancel it like the A350-800.


It adds value and flexibility to the entire A320 family, that can aid Airbus in gaining an edge over Boeing.

If a customer requires a small subfleet of smaller planes for specific airports or markets (but not enough to justify a completely different type), it helps keep the entire A320 family viable. Lets say SAS needed 60 planes, of which 4 must be smaller versions to operate some difficult Norwegian routes, not having the A319 would mean handing the order entirely to Boeing.

If Lufthansa needs the flexibility to convert A320 orders into smaller variants in case of future market fluctuations, A320 orders can be converted to more suitable smaller versions. If an airline is in doubt about Airbus' ability to deliver this flexibility, that could mean a larger order going to Boeing in virtue of them being able to deliver the 737-MAX7.

So the A319neo has value in that it can help sell A320s and A321s, even if almost no A319s are sold.
 
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:47 am

oldannyboy wrote:

I am wondering if the 319 cabin actually has enough real estate length-wise to make it a 162-seater by adding one extra row (slimlines of course)....The exits are already there, and this could somewhat help its case a bit (see what Boeing has done with the -7MAX)....


I think 156 seats is the absolute maximum in the A319. easyJet's A319s have 156 seats at 28-29 inch pitch and they take up the whole cabin. Mind you, one seat manufacturer is trying to certify an even slimmer seat at 27 inch pitch, there are some video clips on youtube from runwaygirl. So you may be wondering correctly :)
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:53 am

CRJ900 wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:

I am wondering if the 319 cabin actually has enough real estate length-wise to make it a 162-seater by adding one extra row (slimlines of course)....The exits are already there, and this could somewhat help its case a bit (see what Boeing has done with the -7MAX)....


I think 156 seats is the absolute maximum in the A319. easyJet's A319s have 156 seats at 28-29 inch pitch and they take up the whole cabin. Mind you, one seat manufacturer is trying to certify an even slimmer seat at 27 inch pitch, there are some video clips on youtube from runwaygirl. So you may be wondering correctly :)


Ah, ok, interesting. Thanks. I for some reason thought there was some possible slack to add a single row just by maybe going slim (or very slim) and perhaps remove some partitions and going for a shorter lightweight galley units. I thought that legroom on EZY's 319s wasn't really that tight...
 
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:56 am

keesje wrote:
The order book is very limited, Avianca being the main customer and some ACJ's / undisclosed.

Avianca canceled their A319neos a month or so ago.
 
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:12 am

Polot wrote:
keesje wrote:
The order book is very limited, Avianca being the main customer and some ACJ's / undisclosed.

Avianca canceled their A319neos a month or so ago.


Then things became really interesting, remaining (?):

- Undisclosed...............11
- Governments, ACJ......3
- Air Côte d'Ivoire...........2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... y_customer

Costs won't be extreme because large A20 commonality & both A319NEO's being certified. But like 737-7 the A319 program numbers get real low and the incentive to convert customers with an A320 instead for the same price grows. Nobody wants orphan aircraft.

737-7 & A319 are a lot of gear for so little cabin.

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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:26 am

Dutchy wrote:
Yes, the A319NEO is the A318 of the NEO series. Kind of surprised they didn't cancel it like the A350-800.

Agreed. The revenue difference to fly an A320 is substantial. The new more efficient, but far heavier, engines close most of the cost difference.

Every re-engine increases the optimal length of an airframe. Ever since the latest CFM-56 or V2500 PIPs, the maintenance advantage of the shorter A319 went away.

There just isn't the cost savings there was pre Sharklets or NEO.

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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:35 am

CS300, A319neo PW, A319neo CFM,6 7 etc.

That's a crowded market.
 
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:41 am

keesje wrote:
But like 737-7 the A319 program numbers get real low and the incentive to convert customers with an A320 instead for the same price grows. Nobody wants orphan aircraft.

737-7 & A319 are a lot of gear for so little cabin.

The difference being 737-7 has a customer who helped design the MAX-7 saying they could eventually take 500 MAX-7s, and no such customer has shown up yet for the A319.

Southwest may take 500 MAX 7 says:

Some quotes from the Southwest CEO in a Leeham article:

- Southwest Airlines needs about 100 more Boeing 737-8s before turning its.attention to the 737-7
- he expects that perhaps 60% of the fleet will eventually be the MAX 7
- Southwest looks at all aircraft, including the Bombardier CSeries—but he has no interest in anything but the 737 “as long as I am CEO.”
- Kelly has no interest in the Boeing 737-9 and might in the 737-10

https://leehamnews.com/2018/03/01/south ... more-26466


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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:06 pm

Does anyone know if the A319neo can land (and park!) at London City? Could it be a replacement for the A318s that BA is running to JFK?
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:22 pm

Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
But like 737-7 the A319 program numbers get real low and the incentive to convert customers with an A320 instead for the same price grows. Nobody wants orphan aircraft.

737-7 & A319 are a lot of gear for so little cabin.

The difference being 737-7 has a customer who helped design the MAX-7 saying they could eventually take 500 MAX-7s, and no such customer has shown up yet for the A319.

Southwest may take 500 MAX 7 says:

Some quotes from the Southwest CEO in a Leeham article:

- Southwest Airlines needs about 100 more Boeing 737-8s before turning its.attention to the 737-7
- he expects that perhaps 60% of the fleet will eventually be the MAX 7
- Southwest looks at all aircraft, including the Bombardier CSeries—but he has no interest in anything but the 737 “as long as I am CEO.”
- Kelly has no interest in the Boeing 737-9 and might in the 737-10

https://leehamnews.com/2018/03/01/south ... more-26466


Image


Let me help you out with the full quote, for some badly needed perspective. .

Over a generation, Southwest could add 500 airplanes to its current fleet of 750. Until a replacement for the 737 is the only choice, Kelly said, though he conceded the carrier will look at the prospective Boeing NMA/797. He also said Southwest looks at all aircraft, including the Bombardier CSeries—but he has no interest in anything but the 737 “as long as I am CEO.”

Kelly is 63, but there is no mandatory retirement age at Southwest and he plans to be around for some time to come.


Since then, he did send out a team to look at the A220. Southwest ordered 30 737-7 in December 2011, of which they delayed 23 for 4 years. The writing on how SWA feels about the 737-7 was over the wall. Unless you look the other way / close your eyes. https://simpleflying.com/southwest-737-retirement/

- Southwest will take 7 737-7s, at least that was the plan before grounding, and the rest (23) deferred to after 2022, maybe.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-02/southwest-moves-up-40-max-737-8-orders-delays-23-max-7-planes

- Westjet had 22 737-7 on order but will probably switch to -8s.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-06/westjet-cools-on-smallest-boeing-737-max-as-ceo-rethinks-fleet

- Jetlines ordered 5 737-7 in 2014, but those seem terminated.
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/70568-canadas-jetlines-terminates-b737-max-order

- Turkmenistan ordered 3 737-7's. It's unclear when they will take, them, when the grounding is lifted. Turkmenistan is banned from EU airspace.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47115732

The other -7 customers will .. oh there aren't.

It shows both the A319NEO & 737-7 are real weak sub programs. And either of them will sell 500 only in dreams.
There are many used 737-700s and A319s in the market, that don't help sales either.
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:47 pm

keesje wrote:
- Undisclosed...............11
- Governments, ACJ......3
- Air Côte d'Ivoire...........2


Undisclosed is 30, very likely the same customer as the last A319ceos, Chinese Airlines in the need for an aircraft for ultra high airports.
There are 35 orders in total, https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/market/ ... eries.html
Last edited by sciing on Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:47 pm

keesje wrote:
Since then, he did send out a team to look at the A220.

WN teams have looked at CSeries/A220 several times. GK never said WN would never look at an A220. He did say many times that WN is an all-737 airline and will remain so for the foreseeable future.

keesje wrote:
Southwest ordered 30 737-7 in December 2011, of which they delayed 23 for 4 years. The writing on how SWA feels about the 737-7 was over the wall.

No, that's the interpretation that you chose to apply.

You could have just as easily chosen to go with the one the WN CEO gives, that Southwest Airlines needs about 100 more Boeing 737-8s before turning its attention to the 737-7.

Yet this clearly explained deferral doesn't fit the "OMG the MAX 7 is doomed!" narrative, so it gets dropped.

keesje wrote:
Unless you look the other way / close your eyes.

I could just as easily say your eyes are closed to anything the WN CEO is saying and wide open to anything that creates any possibility for something other than 737 in the WN fleet.

There are plenty of WN CEO quotes that clearly stay WN is looking at the A220 out of their duty to stay informed, and that their plan is to stay an all-737 airline for the foreseeable future.

You are allowed to pick any interpretation of the information we have, so keep being you, but maybe you should stop saying others have their eyes closed while you are walking around blindfolded?
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:17 pm

The reality is the A220-300 is much lighter. The engines for the A319NEO are incredibly oversized. It has engines capable of 35,000lbf of thrust on an airframe that needs 22,000lbf (24k only needed for shortfield ops). Those engines have poor climb efficiency due to not being loaded enough during climb. Cruise will opperate at a lower actual pressure ratio due to the low thrust.

The A220 has right sized engines for this class. Once in mass production, it will sell well.

Neither the -7 or A319 have much sales hope. They are heavy for what they do and that costs money. I have no doubt Boeing will deliver to WN. For everyone else, Boeing will sell the E2-195 a d Airbus the A220.

IMHO Airbus will not sell enough to payback the flight test costs.

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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:28 pm

IMHO, SWA will not receive any "new" aircraft below the 737 Max 8's size anytime soon, if ever.

Their current 737-7s have many more years to go.

Then they'll figure out if it's better to just drop "some" thinner routes/timings rather than replacing those 737-7s with a similar size aircraft.

I just can't see how they can make additional money (overall) by operating 737 Max 7s - versus the just marginally more expensive (in trip costs) 737 Max 8. It'll be more efficient to just drop some less strategic thinner routes/timings - if necessary.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The A220 (or the E195E2) is definitely a possibility (in a few years) if they can figure out how to efficiently introduce such a second aircraft type with the pilot contract - including to find a way to minimise a continual transfer of pilots from A220s to 737s (for a better pay). Also if the much superior A220's CASM can amortize "early enough" the introduction costs (new training for pilots/FAs/maintenance personnel etc.).

Normally past a fleet of about 30 units, the introduction costs of operating a second fleet type become "relatively" marginal - not sure if this applies to SWA though.
 
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:07 pm

"Southwest Airlines needs about 100 more Boeing 737-8s"

Wish they had enough 737 - 800's to cover for the MAX groundings / flight cuts.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:27 pm

FatCat wrote:
As per A's official IG account, the very first A319N-CJ has made its maiden flight, IIRC some two or three days ago.

:scratchchin: .....And it just did a very long flight (nonstop?)...unsure though with how much simulated load... :weightlifter: .....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... rd-457757/

Quote:
"Two days after conducting its maiden sortie, the first ACJ319neo set a new record for the longest flight made by an Airbus-crewed A320-series aircraft.

The re-engined VIP narrowbody (MSN8612) flew from Airbus headquarters in Toulouse to northern Greenland and back on 26 April, with the mission lasting 16h 10min.

Airbus describes the sortie as an 'endurance flight that included a simulated diversion under 180min [extended twin-engine operations]', for which the A320 family is already certificated."



https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... light.html
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:27 pm

Manufacturers won't keep a line open for orders that might happen 10 years from now.

Of course if a 737-7 can be made out of 737-8 parts, basically, then the line will stay open in a way.
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:59 pm

There is a planned Maritime Patrol Aircraft, and it could be an A319neo or an A320neo.

https://youtu.be/faFxUoGt2WU

So maybe not a bright future on the Commercial side, but a good incentive to pursue flight tests.
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:59 pm

Aesma wrote:
Manufacturers won't keep a line open for orders that might happen 10 years from now.

Of course if a 737-7 can be made out of 737-8 parts, basically, then the line will stay open in a way.

The MAX 7 has been updated from a bespoke configuration to now being in essence a MAX 8 shrink, in the process growing by two rows of seats.

It should be easy for Boeing to offer MAX 7 for the foreseeable future.
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:46 pm

Revelation wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Manufacturers won't keep a line open for orders that might happen 10 years from now.

Of course if a 737-7 can be made out of 737-8 parts, basically, then the line will stay open in a way.

The MAX 7 has been updated from a bespoke configuration to now being in essence a MAX 8 shrink, in the process growing by two rows of seats.

It should be easy for Boeing to offer MAX 7 for the foreseeable future.

Once certified (has it been, I admit to not paying attention), Boeing just needs 2 years notice for a -7 since it is a simple shrink. Same with A319NEO.

The issue will be financing. It will be easier to finance a 738 or a Global 7500 (as a business jet).

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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:29 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The issue will be financing. It will be easier to finance a 738 or a Global 7500 (as a business jet).

In general, yes, but in specific instances such as WN buying what it suggests could eventually be 500 MAX 7s will result in acceptable financing, just like EK and DL are able to get financing for A330neo despite some predictions to the contrary here on a.net.
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:59 pm

Revelation wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The issue will be financing. It will be easier to finance a 738 or a Global 7500 (as a business jet).

In general, yes, but in specific instances such as WN buying what it suggests could eventually be 500 MAX 7s will result in acceptable financing, just like EK and DL are able to get financing for A330neo despite some predictions to the contrary here on a.net.

Last I looked, WN pays cash. Yes, true top credit rating airlines will have zero issue. I could add a dozen to your list, but then someone would be upset I forgot their favorite.

If Boeing doesn't do a shortfield kit on the 738, WN will be a great customer.

Until Pratt/Airbus get the A220 awesome! :devil:

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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:13 pm

Looking at Airbus's published payload-range curves on the A319NEO what I see is some pretty good range over 4,000nmi with decent payload. There aren't a lot of routes that long for which an A319NEO would be used, but there are some (LCY-JFK might be possible as a nonstop now).

But for the vast majority of A319 routes, the A220 is probably more sensible. The big advantage of the A319 is its internal cross section. That makes it a better choice as a bizjet (for people who don't care much about money).
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:42 pm

This is a thread about the A319neo PW first flight, so it would be great if we could actually discuss that instead of the 737-7 MAX customers.

In A319neo news (although not first flight related), the ACJ319neo flew a 16 hr 10 min test flight, setting a record for the longest flight by an Airbus crew on the A320 airliner family of aircraft. Airbus markets this aircraft as being able to do 6750 nmi (12 500 km) or about 15 hours with a cabin accommodating 8 passengers.
https://aviationweek.com/awinbizav/airbus-acj319neo-flies-16-hr-test-flight
 
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:05 pm

NeBaNi wrote:
This is a thread about the A319neo PW first flight, so it would be great if we could actually discuss that instead of the 737-7 MAX customers.

Seems the 737-7 gets brought up in all kinds of inappropriate contexts:

Costs won't be extreme because large A20 commonality & both A319NEO's being certified. But like 737-7 the A319 program numbers get real low and the incentive to convert customers with an A320 instead for the same price grows. Nobody wants orphan aircraft.


:scratchchin:

NeBaNi wrote:
In A319neo news (although not first flight related), the ACJ319neo flew a 16 hr 10 min test flight, setting a record for the longest flight by an Airbus crew on the A320 airliner family of aircraft. Airbus markets this aircraft as being able to do 6750 nmi (12 500 km) or about 15 hours with a cabin accommodating 8 passengers.
https://aviationweek.com/awinbizav/airbus-acj319neo-flies-16-hr-test-flight

You were scooped eight posts earlier....
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Re: A319NEO PW First Flight

Wed May 01, 2019 4:56 am

Revelation wrote:
Seems the 737-7 gets brought up in all kinds of inappropriate contexts:
Costs won't be extreme because large A20 commonality & both A319NEO's being certified. But like 737-7 the A319 program numbers get real low and the incentive to convert customers with an A320 instead for the same price grows. Nobody wants orphan aircraft.

:scratchchin:

Yeah and that post is rubbish, not only in context of this thread, but in general as well. I mean, what is a large A[2]20 commonality anyway?

Revelation wrote:
NeBaNi wrote:
In A319neo news (although not first flight related), the ACJ319neo flew a 16 hr 10 min test flight, setting a record for the longest flight by an Airbus crew on the A320 airliner family of aircraft. Airbus markets this aircraft as being able to do 6750 nmi (12 500 km) or about 15 hours with a cabin accommodating 8 passengers.
https://aviationweek.com/awinbizav/airbus-acj319neo-flies-16-hr-test-flight

You were scooped eight posts earlier....

D'oh, mea culpa. I should have read the thread more carefully.

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