Cubsrule
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:37 pm

zeke wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Nowhere is it stated what battery they used thus we don’t know who was wrong.


It was stated in the article that the airline had given prior approval. That approval only comes after the type of mobility aide and batteries have been provided by the passenger to the airline.

“Hodge said no one from CATSA or United Airlines would listen to him or read IATA documents he had printed out, showing his batteries are permitted on board if an airline gives prior approval. Hodge had received that permission.”

I have a lot of sympathy for this passenger. Able bodied passengers take for granted the amount of planning needed for a person with this level of mobility to travel. It is a significant undertaking.


Your last sentence is spot-on. It sounds to me like part of the issue may be that UA and CATSA were not on the same page. When flying transborder, we sometimes forget that there are slightly different rules because so many of the rules and procedures are so similar between the US and Canada. For instance, I travel with a tablet that is a "laptop" (and thus has to come out of the bag, even in the Trusted Traveller line) under CATSA rules but is not a "laptop" (so can stay in the bag in all security lines) under US rules. I don't generally trust foreign carriers to know the security rules, so perhaps UA was unaware of some CATSA rule. And it can be difficult to get answers to ultra-specific questions out of the security authorities no matter what country you are in.

If I am right, the incident is ultimately UA's fault, though I certainly understand how it happened.
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spinotter
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:47 pm

c933103 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
enilria wrote:
Not sure this is United's fault, but these battery restrictions create all kinds of problems. This one is very sad.

Stearn Hodge says he will never forget the humiliation of having to drag his body across a hotel room floor during what was supposed to be a vacation celebrating his 43rd wedding anniversary — because a security agent at the Calgary International Airport and United Airlines confiscated the batteries he needed to operate a portable scooter.

"Having to crawl across the floor in front of my wife is the most humiliating thing that I can think of," said Hodge. "It unmasks how real my disability is … I haven't been the same since."

The 68-year-old retired contractor from Kelowna, B.C., lost his left arm and right leg in a 1984 workplace accident. He now relies on a portable scooter powered by lithium batteries.

But on a trip to Tulsa, Okla., on Feb. 26, 2017, an agent with the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority (CATSA) and a United Airlines official told Hodge to remove the $2,000 battery from his scooter and fly without it, as well as his spare battery.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.5109369


Do I dare say, "First world problem"? I love how people go into an absolute ecstasy of self-pity - which is not in any way something to make one proud of the human race. My skeptical self whispers that they think it will increase their jury award.

You thought technology aren't helping third world at the same time either?


Technology can only go so far. If it was known that his batteries were not allowed on board, he should have known it himself by asking the airline. After all, he is the scooter user - it is his responsibility to check things out. But it is his self-pity that disgusts me - take it like a man, guy. You are still alive. You could be laughing while crawling around - some people would be! The whole thing is your fault anyway.
 
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spinotter
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:49 pm

Bradin wrote:
Are we saying as the A.net community it is completely unreasonable for the gentlemen to take the batteries on board in the cabin as carry on? Because based on the article, it reads as the gentlemen was denied taking his scooter's lithium batteries on as a carry on - not in the baggage hold.

Lithium batteries most certainly should not be in the baggage hold - I respect that, but certainly we can find some agreement that the battery could have been in the passenger cabin?


Big lithium batteries should not be on board period, as carry-on or as cargo.
 
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GlobalAirways
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:28 pm

This story was clearly written by an attorney and a fake news reporter.
There is little difference in people, but that little difference makes a big difference. The little difference is attitude. The big difference is whether it is positive or negative. ~ W. Clement Stone
 
Bradin
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:09 pm

spinotter wrote:
Bradin wrote:
Are we saying as the A.net community it is completely unreasonable for the gentlemen to take the batteries on board in the cabin as carry on? Because based on the article, it reads as the gentlemen was denied taking his scooter's lithium batteries on as a carry on - not in the baggage hold.

Lithium batteries most certainly should not be in the baggage hold - I respect that, but certainly we can find some agreement that the battery could have been in the passenger cabin?


Big lithium batteries should not be on board period, as carry-on or as cargo.


I think that's unreasonable because it becomes a massive blanket cover that may potentially impact anyone - from someone who rides a scooter to someone who owns a laptop because each individual or airline's definition of "big" varies.
 
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enilria
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:24 pm

spinotter wrote:
c933103 wrote:
spinotter wrote:

Do I dare say, "First world problem"? I love how people go into an absolute ecstasy of self-pity - which is not in any way something to make one proud of the human race. My skeptical self whispers that they think it will increase their jury award.

You thought technology aren't helping third world at the same time either?


Technology can only go so far. If it was known that his batteries were not allowed on board, he should have known it himself by asking the airline. After all, he is the scooter user - it is his responsibility to check things out. But it is his self-pity that disgusts me - take it like a man, guy. You are still alive. You could be laughing while crawling around - some people would be! The whole thing is your fault anyway.

If he really had paperwork saying that the batteries were approved for the flight as the articles posted above say then that changes things a lot.
 
OccupiedLav
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:34 pm

mxaxai wrote:
"They" as in "The airline staff"? Because how they could be okay with such a situation baffles me. Did they see him crawl, decided "Not my fucking problem" and looked away? That's the other side of a lack of personal accountability. Getting a wheelchair for a disabled man is probably not within their job description so why should they care about some idiots personal problems.


If the airline staff/airport employees saw him crawling at the airport and didn't do anything, they are absolute pieces of trash. I was commenting on what WeatherPilot mentioned. That part seems a little odd.
 
clancy688
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:15 pm

JannEejit wrote:
Perhaps he failed to mention the scooter was battery operated when he checked with the airline ? What I don't get, is that he has been an amputee since 1984, but that he hasn't encountered this problem before ?


What I don't get is the sheer number of people in this thread replying who obviously haven't read the article in question past the headline.

Quote from the article:

A few months earlier, Hodge almost had his batteries seized on a WestJet flight. But "seconds" before takeoff — and after he suffered a panic attack — Hodge was granted permission to take them on board.

[...]

Three months before the United incident, on Nov. 27, 2016, Hodge had also run into battery problems while travelling to Cancun, Mexico.

In that case, a WestJet employee initially told him he could take the batteries in a carry-on, but when he got to the security checkpoint, a CATSA agent said the batteries had to be in checked luggage.

"According to federal airline law, that's the worst place you want to put them," said Hodge. "Because if a problem develops with those batteries, they don't know where they are and they're only going to find out about it when it's too late."

Minutes before his departure, a WestJet employee was able to confirm that the batteries could go on the plane.

 
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JannEejit
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:22 pm

clancy688 wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
Perhaps he failed to mention the scooter was battery operated when he checked with the airline ? What I don't get, is that he has been an amputee since 1984, but that he hasn't encountered this problem before ?


What I don't get is the sheer number of people in this thread replying who obviously haven't read the article in question past the headline.

Quote from the article:

A few months earlier, Hodge almost had his batteries seized on a WestJet flight. But "seconds" before takeoff — and after he suffered a panic attack — Hodge was granted permission to take them on board.

[...]

Three months before the United incident, on Nov. 27, 2016, Hodge had also run into battery problems while travelling to Cancun, Mexico.

In that case, a WestJet employee initially told him he could take the batteries in a carry-on, but when he got to the security checkpoint, a CATSA agent said the batteries had to be in checked luggage.

"According to federal airline law, that's the worst place you want to put them," said Hodge. "Because if a problem develops with those batteries, they don't know where they are and they're only going to find out about it when it's too late."

Minutes before his departure, a WestJet employee was able to confirm that the batteries could go on the plane.



Hah, fair point and hands up guilty to just reading the thread itself. I've travelled with large lithium cells myself and although all legit and certified (I carry a certificate too) I've found the actual response from check in operatives etc to be variable on the day. Maybe he just got picked on by the grouch of the day ?
 
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 3:47 am

GlobalAirways wrote:
This story was clearly written by an attorney and a fake news reporter.

Right!

The only thing, which really matters - the capacity of the battery - appears nowhere in the article. Why does the article not mention that? Really poor journalism.

It does, however, mention the price of the battery - $2000, and near the end of the article it also shows a picture. Price and picture fit pretty well together.

But what doesn't fit is the price/size to capacity/rules. That battery is easily unmounted and shall be carried in the cabin. But it is not a 300Wh battery (160Wh if spare). It is a multi kilo-Wh battery. It violates the size limit many times !!!

If such a battery goes wild on a passenger plane - due to manufacturing fault or whatever reason - then we will have a long thread here at a.net. THAT MUST NEVER HAPPEN. That is the reason we have rules.

The smoke will spoil the lungs on all passengers on board, and flight attendants trying to fight it will risk serious additional injury. (While the plane won't fly again for a long time). This is not a laptop style incident.

In the optimal world it should be possible to rent a battery at your destination when you want or need a high capacity unit. And combine that with an own small battery within legal limits for use in the airports. That could be additional business for car rental companies. That won't happen. Too small business. Too many different batteries.
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zeke
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 4:28 am

prebennorholm wrote:
GlobalAirways wrote:
This story was clearly written by an attorney and a fake news reporter.

Right!

The only thing, which really matters - the capacity of the battery - appears nowhere in the article. Why does the article not mention that? Really poor journalism.

It does, however, mention the price of the battery - $2000, and near the end of the article it also shows a picture. Price and picture fit pretty well together.

But what doesn't fit is the price/size to capacity/rules. That battery is easily unmounted and shall be carried in the cabin. But it is not a 300Wh battery (160Wh if spare). It is a multi kilo-Wh battery. It violates the size limit many times !!!

If such a battery goes wild on a passenger plane - due to manufacturing fault or whatever reason - then we will have a long thread here at a.net. THAT MUST NEVER HAPPEN. That is the reason we have rules.

The smoke will spoil the lungs on all passengers on board, and flight attendants trying to fight it will risk serious additional injury. (While the plane won't fly again for a long time). This is not a laptop style incident.

In the optimal world it should be possible to rent a battery at your destination when you want or need a high capacity unit. And combine that with an own small battery within legal limits for use in the airports. That could be additional business for car rental companies. That won't happen. Too small business. Too many different batteries.


The mobility aide the passenger had is specifically designed for travel.

Please see all the information they have with regards to air transport of the device.

https://www.travelscoot.com//air-travel ... ooter.html
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
strfyr51
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 5:02 am

NWAROOSTER wrote:
If the Canadian Aviation Security commission is concerned about Lithium Ion Batteries then anyone flying to or from Canada should not be allowed to bring their cell phones, computers and other devices onto any aircraft. Also the Boeing 787 should not be able to fly into Canadian territories as the 787 uses Lithium Ion Batteries to start the APU. Yes the 787 battery is now inside a special case that vents to the outside. As a retired aircraft mechanic I still am not in favor of the Lithium Ion Batteries in the 787. All Boeing did was save a few pounds over the less problematic lead acid battery used in other aircraft. :old:

But? After Boeing found the fix to use the Lithium Ion Battery? Airbus installed it in their airplanes as well. Let's not get "Holier than thou" Whatever Boeing didn't know about the LI battery? Airbus sure as HELL didn't know!! And I TOO am a retired aircraft Mechanic and Maintenance Controller! Has the Battery had any problems since the partitions were installed? NO! and Nobody is going back to Lead Acid Main ship's batteries,, And you know better than that! /the LI battery holds it's power output FAR longer than any Lead acid Battery and yoy also know That as well, So why not be up front about it? We're not flying B727's anymore. Don't be a curmudgeon ! with that "in the OLD Days crap" You know good and damn well tech boundaries are being pushed left and right, .
 
Jetty
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 7:56 am

zeke wrote:
The mobility aide the passenger had is specifically designed for travel.

Please see all the information they have with regards to air transport of the device.

https://www.travelscoot.com//air-travel ... ooter.html

Thank you for pointing me to this information. If you compare the shape of the battery in the article with the available batteries on their website it’s very clear that it’s the one with a 420Wh capacity. See: https://www.travelscoot.com/accessories.html

In 2015 the maximum allowed capacity changed from 25 grams of lithium to 300Wh. This battery contains 24 grams of lithium and has a 420Wh capacity. Thus allowed before 2015 but not after, which the passenger might have not known if he assumed the device that was suitable for air travel when he bought it would remain suitable for air travel. Even his documents were meaningless as they applied to outdated regulations. They have no case whatsoever and should check current regulations as not to endanger other passengers.
 
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zeke
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 9:53 am

Jetty wrote:
Thank you for pointing me to this information. If you compare the shape of the battery in the article with the available batteries on their website it’s very clear that it’s the one with a 420Wh capacity. See: https://www.travelscoot.com/accessories.html

In 2015 the maximum allowed capacity changed from 25 grams of lithium to 300Wh. This battery contains 24 grams of lithium and has a 420Wh capacity. Thus allowed before 2015 but not after, which the passenger might have not known if he assumed the device that was suitable for air travel when he bought it would remain suitable for air travel. Even his documents were meaningless as they applied to outdated regulations. They have no case whatsoever and should check current regulations as not to endanger other passengers.


They don’t actually show the battery in either the article or the video. The aluminium box you see at the bottom of the article is the protective housing, not the battery.

They actually confiscated the batteries for a month according to the video.

There is no limit on the size of battery when the mobility aide is checked in, it just needs to be electrically isolated, secure, and protected from short circuit. The housing does that. The article states “Canadian Air Transport Security Authority (CATSA) and a United Airlines official told Hodge to remove the $2,000 battery from his scooter and fly without it, as well as his spare battery.”

The spare batteries sold by them are below the check in size limit.

I have taken much larger mobility aided before. I remember one time we had a significant delay as the passenger needed their mobility aide to and from the aircraft door. Due to its size and weight to get that device from the air bridge back through security, down to apron level and onto the aircraft took around 45 minutes on departure and arrival. All of the passengers were very understanding and compassionate.

The passenger has my full sympathy. It appears to me that there was some inexperienced staff working that day. To overcome that what we have in place is a central number in head office where specialist experienced staff handle any issue like this across the network. Our front line customer service staff are trained to contact the specialist staff in the head office to make any operational decisions like this.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Jetty
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 11:22 am

zeke wrote:
They don’t actually show the battery in either the article or the video. The aluminium box you see at the bottom of the article is the protective housing, not the battery.

That’s just semantics; the protective housing is an integral part of the battery package with this model, and this shape of ‘housing’, if you will, is only used with the capacity that isn’t allowed on airplanes. See: https://youtu.be/wFGhS9gDuWg

They actually confiscated the batteries for a month according to the video.

Ok, but not sure how that’s relevant to any of this.

There is no limit on the size of battery when the mobility aide is checked in, it just needs to be electrically isolated, secure, and protected from short circuit. The housing does that. The article states “Canadian Air Transport Security Authority (CATSA) and a United Airlines official told Hodge to remove the $2,000 battery from his scooter and fly without it, as well as his spare battery.”

You’re confusing the rules for non-removable batteries with the rules for batteries that are intended to be removed during transport. IATA:

The dangerous goods transport regulations require the battery to be removed for carriage where the battery is specifically designed to be removed for transport. This typically applies where the battery is not protected by the design of the mobility aid and the manufacturer of the device intends that the battery must be removed for the device to be folded, or otherwise prepared for transport.

Where the battery is removed by the user, if the mobility aid is specifically designed to allow it to be, following the manufacturer’s instructions, the battery must not exceed 300 Wh, or for a device that is fitted with two batteries required for its operation, each battery must not exceed 160 Wh.
If the battery is not removed, there is no limit to the Wh rating for the installed battery(ies)
A passenger may carry a maximum of one spare battery not exceeding 300 Wh or two spares each not exceeding 160 Wh.

https://www.iata.org/whatwedo/cargo/dgr ... 019-en.pdf

With this battery specifically being designed to be removed as per it’s manual the maximum Mh capacity applies.
Image

The spare batteries sold by them are below the check in size limit.

Two are, one not. The one battery that’s shown in the news article is not so it isn’t a stretch to assume that the other one they took with them is the same model and above maximum allowed capacity as well.
Image

I have taken much larger mobility aided before. I remember one time we had a significant delay as the passenger needed their mobility aide to and from the aircraft door. Due to its size and weight to get that device from the air bridge back through security, down to apron level and onto the aircraft took around 45 minutes on departure and arrival.

Now this makes a ton of sense, but your logic that very large mobility devices with large batteries are allowed and thus smaller ones will be allowed as well doesn’t hold up because the most restrictive part of the rules only apply to demountable or foldable devices like in this case, which will often be the smaller ones.

Our front line customer service staff are trained to contact the specialist staff in the head office to make any operational decisions like this.

Not sure what decisions there are really to be made when IATA and national regulations are very clear: either it’s allowed or it’s not.
 
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spinotter
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 3:54 pm

enilria wrote:
spinotter wrote:
c933103 wrote:
You thought technology aren't helping third world at the same time either?


Technology can only go so far. If it was known that his batteries were not allowed on board, he should have known it himself by asking the airline. After all, he is the scooter user - it is his responsibility to check things out. But it is his self-pity that disgusts me - take it like a man, guy. You are still alive. You could be laughing while crawling around - some people would be! The whole thing is your fault anyway.

If he really had paperwork saying that the batteries were approved for the flight as the articles posted above say then that changes things a lot.


I agree, but these batteries are relatively new and there can be issues in handling new technology on an airplane. Next time I bet he'll be more proactive.
 
Bradin
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 4:13 pm

spinotter wrote:
enilria wrote:
spinotter wrote:

Technology can only go so far. If it was known that his batteries were not allowed on board, he should have known it himself by asking the airline. After all, he is the scooter user - it is his responsibility to check things out. But it is his self-pity that disgusts me - take it like a man, guy. You are still alive. You could be laughing while crawling around - some people would be! The whole thing is your fault anyway.

If he really had paperwork saying that the batteries were approved for the flight as the articles posted above say then that changes things a lot.


I agree, but these batteries are relatively new and there can be issues in handling new technology on an airplane. Next time I bet he'll be more proactive.


If memory serves me correctly, the article states he had all the correct paperwork. The problem lies operationally on the airline side where they don't have an established process to ask a knowledgeable authority for guidance on an issue such as lithium ion batteries.
 
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spinotter
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 4:19 pm

Bradin wrote:
spinotter wrote:
enilria wrote:
If he really had paperwork saying that the batteries were approved for the flight as the articles posted above say then that changes things a lot.


I agree, but these batteries are relatively new and there can be issues in handling new technology on an airplane. Next time I bet he'll be more proactive.


If memory serves me correctly, the article states he had all the correct paperwork. The problem lies operationally on the airline side where they don't have an established process to ask a knowledgeable authority for guidance on an issue such as lithium ion batteries.


There can be issues with many different aspects of travel. Did he think about delaying his departure and getting a more definitive ruling from someone in the know at the airline/airport/FAA? Just because he is a double amputee doesn't mean that the entire world stops when he appears.
 
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rikkus67
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 6:06 pm

As a Canadian, I am disappointed as to what has transpired. As a regular traveller, and someone who follows CBC, I am also aware of the dangers of travelling with Li batteries... especially after multiple Li battery incidents. My question is, does (did) United and Westjet have in place clear documentation (at the time of this incident) of what the maximum Wh allowance is for their aircraft, regardless of the IATA specifications? If Mr. Hodge had this specific information verified before his departure, and was carrying the proper documentation from the respective airline, then his complaint is valid. While I empathize with his situation, if he is indeed a seasoned disabled traveller (of now 35 years), he surely must know that there will be limitations to what acceptable limits are for mobility devices and their battery packs. This will mean being fully prepared with the most up to date information, and full clearance with the airline, prior to arriving at the airport.
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AEROFAN
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 6:53 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Whenever I find myself thinking too highly of humanity I just come to this forum and read the comments on a thread about a passenger being mistreated by an airline


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
 
Bradin
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 8:22 pm

spinotter wrote:
Bradin wrote:
spinotter wrote:

I agree, but these batteries are relatively new and there can be issues in handling new technology on an airplane. Next time I bet he'll be more proactive.


If memory serves me correctly, the article states he had all the correct paperwork. The problem lies operationally on the airline side where they don't have an established process to ask a knowledgeable authority for guidance on an issue such as lithium ion batteries.


There can be issues with many different aspects of travel. Did he think about delaying his departure and getting a more definitive ruling from someone in the know at the airline/airport/FAA? Just because he is a double amputee doesn't mean that the entire world stops when he appears.


The gentlemen was flying United from Canada from Calgary to Tulsa. I have some hesitations and reservations that anyone from United or Skywest would have been able to produce a definitive ruling - same day.

Moreover, the gentlemen could have been flying on the last flight of the day. We don't know because none of the articles published indicate what his flight number was.
 
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zeke
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 11:03 pm

Jetty wrote:
Not sure what decisions there are really to be made when IATA and national regulations are very clear: either it’s allowed or it’s not.


Your reply and the events that transpired for this thread to be created are examples why staff specially trained with these issues should be making the operational decisions. Thank you for post the IATA guidance material again, the very same information I had already linked earlier in this thread and you quoted me on. :banghead:

One cannot determine from the battery housing color the type of battery it is, for example this TravelScoot battery in the Aluminium housing is less than 300 Wh. One needs to read the actual rated capacity, you will notice the label also indicates it complies to the standard required for transport by air. Click on the picture if you need to read the words more clearly.

Image

The TravelScoot does not need to be collapsed for travel, and the battery does not need to go in the cabin. Please see the end of this video to see both being loaded in the cargo hold. https://youtu.be/wFmlBKBLXq0

I fully expect a similar letter to this to be sent to the passenger https://www.travelscoot.com/assets/pdf/ ... pology.pdf

rikkus67 wrote:
While I empathize with his situation, if he is indeed a seasoned disabled traveller (of now 35 years), he surely must know that there will be limitations to what acceptable limits are for mobility devices and their battery packs. This will mean being fully prepared with the most up to date information, and full clearance with the airline, prior to arriving at the airport.


My experience is with passengers like who are seasoned travelers know far more about the rules and regulations regarding to travel across all modes or travel (road, rail, ship, air) far better than those without the need for such mobility devices. They live this 24/7, they are experts. It appears the passenger had the correct prior clearances in place, there was just a minor disconnect on the day of travel.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 11:19 pm

Caspian27 wrote:
DarthLobster wrote:
Yay. More customer service failures in the Aviation forum....


More accurately, a failure of the customer to read in advance what is approved for transport (lithium batteries can never go in the cargo compartments) but blame the airline anyway. I feel for the guy, but we have lost a lot of personal accountability in our modern society.


Read the 'effing article. He complied with all of United's procedures for transporting lithium batteries for wheelchairs. They still denied him boarding and the agent refused to read the documentation.

You need to get off your ableist high horse about "personal responsibility." Take some personal responsibility for reading before you post. Got it, champ?
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 11:22 pm

zeke wrote:
Caspian27 wrote:
More accurately, a failure of the customer to read in advance what is approved for transport (lithium batteries can never go in the cargo compartments) but blame the airline anyway. I feel for the guy, but we have lost a lot of personal accountability in our modern society.


I suggest you read the IATA guidance on mobility aids


https://www.iata.org/whatwedo/cargo/dgr ... 019-en.pdf


Oh, but that would require Caspian27 to take "personal responsibility" for himself. Why should he do that when he can blame others (especially when the "others" are historically marginalized groups)?
 
balair863
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:09 pm

Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 11:34 pm

Everyone seems to focus on a high-tech solution to a high-tech problem, namely the battery operated motorized scooter.
Seems to me that an old fashioned, pushed or self propelled wheelchair would have solved the problem. If nobody in the family , or the man himself was able to push the wheelchair I’m sure the hotel would send up somebody to help. When my 91 year old mother flies she uses a wheelchair and the airline, usually Southwest, always has a customer service rep meet and greet her and wheel her wherever she needs to go in the terminal.
Dragging oneself (on video no less) is a tad dramatic when there is a simple solution.
Just my humble opinion.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3812
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 11:39 pm

Jetty wrote:
tjwgrr wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Do I dare say, "First world problem"? I love how people go into an absolute ecstasy of self-pity - which is not in any way something to make one proud of the human race......


Wow-

Self pity- really? A double amputee trying to make the best of things for himself and his wife.

"Hodge said he asked for an agent from United Airlines to come to the security checkpoint, as he had called the airline earlier and was assured it was OK to bring his battery and a spare on board."
Sounds like he tried to do the right thing.

Amputee or not, he shouldn’t be trying to endanger a whole plane by pushing for dangerous goods to be allowed onboard. ‘I called and was assured’ is just his interpretation we’ll never now is true. What we do know is that if he was as savvy with just checking the rules as lining up for a payout it wouldn’t have happened.

the question WAS? He Called and was assured by Whom? Did he het a Name? And? How would you know they were United? We use contractors in Canada.
Maybe she should have flown Air Canada.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13787
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 11:43 pm

balair863 wrote:
Everyone seems to focus on a high-tech solution to a high-tech problem, namely the battery operated motorized scooter. A
Seems to me that an old fashioned, pushed or self propelled wheelchair would have solved the problem. If nobody in the family , or the man himself was able to push the wheelchair I’m sure the hotel would send up somebody to help. When my 91 year old mother flies she uses a wheelchair and the airline, usually Southwest, always has a customer service rep meet and greet her and wheel her wherever she needs to go in the terminal.
Dragging oneself (on video no less) is a tad dramatic when there is a simple solution.
Just my humble opinion.



Did you read the article ?

“"I still remember the CATSA agent saying, 'Well, you could get a wheelchair.' How's a one-armed guy going to run a wheelchair?" asked Hodge. "How am I going to go down a ramp and brake with one hand? But that shouldn't even have to come up."

Hodge's wife had recently undergone cancer treatment, which affected her spine, and she couldn't push a wheelchair for her husband.”
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3812
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 11:46 pm

balair863 wrote:
Everyone seems to focus on a high-tech solution to a high-tech problem, namely the battery operated motorized scooter.
Seems to me that an old fashioned, pushed or self propelled wheelchair would have solved the problem. If nobody in the family , or the man himself was able to push the wheelchair I’m sure the hotel would send up somebody to help. When my 91 year old mother flies she uses a wheelchair and the airline, usually Southwest, always has a customer service rep meet and greet her and wheel her wherever she needs to go in the terminal.
Dragging oneself (on video no less) is a tad dramatic when there is a simple solution.
Just my humble opinion.

l
dragging himself was an Excellent Idea, Since he was already going to "Hollywood".. It was all "show"..
 
TheOldDude
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 11:50 pm

Once again we have people choose sides before the facts are known, according to their biases. Although I have sympathy for the claimant I can't pick sides until assertions turn into facts and more facts come to light. Does anyone know the role CATSA played in this event, and the rationale for that decision? Does anyone know whether the reasoning addressed the second leg of the flight, which may have been on a smaller aircraft and thus required the mobility device to be placed in the baggage hold? Has anyone confirmed the assertion that approval was obtained, and the assertions used to gain approval were verified as true when the claimant was at the airport? Is this event one of many, or an unfortunate one-off event? If one-off, why are we discussing it?
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13787
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Wed May 01, 2019 11:53 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
the question WAS? He Called and was assured by Whom? Did he het a Name? And? How would you know they were United? We use contractors in Canada.
Maybe she should have flown Air Canada.


The only people who would have given such assurances would have been the United's Accessibility Desk at 1-800-228-2744.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13787
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Thu May 02, 2019 12:04 am

TheOldDude wrote:
Has anyone confirmed the assertion that approval was obtained, and the assertions used to gain approval were verified as true when the claimant was at the airport? Is this event one of many, or an unfortunate one-off event? If one-off, why are we discussing it?


According to the article the same passenger had a similar experience on another airline a few months earlier. With regard to this event according to the article the airline wrote to the passenger that "it appears we were in violation of federal disability requirements”. Not something I would imagine they would say if it was not permitted.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
TheOldDude
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Thu May 02, 2019 1:38 am

zeke wrote:
TheOldDude wrote:
Has anyone confirmed the assertion that approval was obtained, and the assertions used to gain approval were verified as true when the claimant was at the airport? Is this event one of many, or an unfortunate one-off event? If one-off, why are we discussing it?


According to the article the same passenger had a similar experience on another airline a few months earlier. With regard to this event according to the article the airline wrote to the passenger that "it appears we were in violation of federal disability requirements”. Not something I would imagine they would say if it was not permitted.


Thank you for confirming one of the many assumptions that underpin the arguments in this thread.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9262
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: 'I had to crawl': Amputee seeks damages after United Airlines and airport security seize scooter batteries

Thu May 02, 2019 2:59 am

TheOldDude wrote:
Thank you for confirming one of the many assumptions that underpin the arguments in this thread.

Just curious.... And?....

All arguments or theories or points of view start with assumptions. Assumptions are very necessary in any situation (often they are facts but termed assumptions due to an inability to be 100% certain. That may or may not be the case here.). The assumptions here are being made on reported information which is the normal process.

Tugg
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