77H
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O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:30 am

With ORD nearing the completion of its complete airfield redesign and the impending build out of additional terminals, could ORD absorb all the traffic from MDW if there were to be a push by the city to close the field for redevelopment ?

I’m not suggesting the city should or would, just wondering if it would be possible for ORD to handle the combined operation of both?

While MDW is closer to the loop, Chicago has spent billions on the ORD redevelopment. Might make some residents near MDW question the need for two airports, especially if ORD could absorb WN’s operation. Does anyone from the Chicagoland area know what the prevailing sentiment of residents is concerning having two airports?

Is there a value add in keeping MDW open beyond its relative convenience to downtown ?

77H
 
luckyone
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:59 am

For starters what would you do with the site? Midway sits at basically Cicero Ave and 55th Street. Most of the surrounding area is low density lower middle class/working class housing. There isn’t a huge demand to turn that into something high dollar because there’s already a mall just down the street (Ford City), high end real estate won’t sell in that area, and turning that space into something industrial is unlikely to happen in today’s economy. Though constrained, the site works well as an airport. Tearing the airport down would likely be more of a drain on already stressed city resources as it is. They effectively had no choice with O’Hare but to correct its shortcomings, but Midway does not have the ability to realign its runways or build massively. Leave it as it is.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:50 am

Are you arguing that MDW is dysfunctional or profoundly unsafe as a commercial airport? If not, why argue that the City should abandon the public (L-train, runways, concourses) and private investments there? I don't think putting another 8 million passengers on the Kennedy is going to help ORD one bit.
 
jfk777
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:10 am

Midway closing, not way. What you are proposing is akin to New York closing LaGuardia. Chicago needs their two airports which serve very different needs, plus there is no room at ORD to absorb all the Southwest flights.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:45 am

Yawning!
Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
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DL717
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:08 pm

77H wrote:
With ORD nearing the completion of its complete airfield redesign and the impending build out of additional terminals, could ORD absorb all the traffic from MDW if there were to be a push by the city to close the field for redevelopment ?

I’m not suggesting the city should or would, just wondering if it would be possible for ORD to handle the combined operation of both?

While MDW is closer to the loop, Chicago has spent billions on the ORD redevelopment. Might make some residents near MDW question the need for two airports, especially if ORD could absorb WN’s operation. Does anyone from the Chicagoland area know what the prevailing sentiment of residents is concerning having two airports?

Is there a value add in keeping MDW open beyond its relative convenience to downtown ?

77H


The FAA will not allow closure of MDW. Period. There was an absolute shit storm over Meigs Field back in 1994, but Meigs didn’t have any Federal Grant money tied to it and it was just a GA airport. If they tried to close Midway the lawsuits that would fly from the law offices at Southwest will make the Wright Amendment filings look like chicken feed and the FAA would bitch slap Chicago so hard it would knock them into Iowa.
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jcwr56
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:18 pm

Amazing actually no reads what he's asking.

Great answer by luckyone, but the rest...

Read the question as a hypothetical and leave the emotions out of it. MDW is not closing.

To the OP, in the current state ORD is in, no. There's the physical limitations of the terminal complex and gate availability. You'll see an announcement concerning ORD tomorrow, but even with the O'Hare 21 program, it would still not be enough terminal space to absorb MDW operations.

Phase 2 of the O'Hare 21 adds in two more satellite terminals 3 and 4 and in theory, they could add in a Western Terminal which could house WN with their own FIS too if it was planned out correctly.

So IF it was to happen, you're at least 15 -20 years away from seeing it.
 
ncflyer
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:43 pm

How many jobs would be lost on the south side? That’s value “beyond its relative presence to downtown” that no real estate development would replace.
 
JFKCMILAXFLL
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:50 pm

luckyone wrote:
For starters what would you do with the site?.


New Wrigley Field? :lol: :duck:

Just kidding Cubs fans! Neither the original Wrigley or MDW will close in our lifetimes :)
 
nagpaw
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:02 pm

77H wrote:
I’m not suggesting the city should or would, just wondering if it would be possible for ORD to handle the combined operation of both?



Everyone please RTFQ.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:14 pm

DL717 wrote:

The FAA will not allow closure of MDW. Period. There was an absolute shit storm over Meigs Field back in 1994, but Meigs didn’t have any Federal Grant money tied to it and it was just a GA airport. If they tried to close Midway the lawsuits that would fly from the law offices at Southwest will make the Wright Amendment filings look like chicken feed and the FAA would bitch slap Chicago so hard it would knock them into Iowa.

Mods, we seriously need "thumbs up/down" options, so I can thumbs up this one to infinity and beyond!
 
Cubsrule
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:29 pm

jcwr56 wrote:
Amazing actually no reads what he's asking.

Great answer by luckyone, but the rest...

Read the question as a hypothetical and leave the emotions out of it. MDW is not closing.

To the OP, in the current state ORD is in, no. There's the physical limitations of the terminal complex and gate availability. You'll see an announcement concerning ORD tomorrow, but even with the O'Hare 21 program, it would still not be enough terminal space to absorb MDW operations.

Phase 2 of the O'Hare 21 adds in two more satellite terminals 3 and 4 and in theory, they could add in a Western Terminal which could house WN with their own FIS too if it was planned out correctly.

So IF it was to happen, you're at least 15 -20 years away from seeing it.


I hear what you are saying, but I don't think the airfield at ORD is or ever will be condusive to WN's business model because of the long taxi times. Moving the CHI hub operation to ORD probably decreases "in-air" utilization by around 1-1.5 hours per frame per day fleetwide. That's a huge amount of money left on the table for a carrier that depends on utilization to make its model work.
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Elementalism
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:35 pm

I prefer MDW over ORD any day of the week. Would hate if they closed MDW. I fly in there 1-2 time a month for work.
 
Galvan316
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:41 pm

To be fair, that mall down the street from MDW has one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel.

With that said, as we've seen with the annexation that ORD made with Bensenville, it would seen entirely possible that some annexation could be done potentially around the surrounding areas of MDW.
ORD and MDW is where youll find Me!
 
BigPlaneGuy13
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:50 pm

As a Chicago native for 18 years, the simple answer is no way.

I think you are underestimating how much air traffic WN flies into Chicago through MDW. South siders prefer it. North and west suburbs and the city seem to prefer ORD. I don't think anyone has ever questioned the need for two airports either. The Chicagoland area is far too large to ever operate a single airport. Consider the likes of Los Angeles and New York. Each has several.

A lot of the changes at ORD are to help with international travel. There would not be enough room to move WN in its current state from MDW. Plus, MDW has gone under a lot of renovations of its own in the last few years. The city is definitely investing in both airports but in different ways. MDW will be much more efficient upon completion for moving pax, and ORD will be much more efficient for its international reach.

Could it be possible... Maybe. But it's not in the cards and wouldn't work under the current conditions.
 
bob75013
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:23 pm

Yup, the city is going to abandon that expensive new terminal and attached parking garage. And that new remote parking garage / rent car center. Yup abandoned, too. And they'll wait till they complete the addition to the terminal parking garage before abandoning it.

edit add: and that rail line that ran thru the middle of the airport 80 years ago -- it's coming back.

It's all happening next week Tuesday -- NOT.



Prevailing opinion of area residents is keep two airports.

My personal opinion: O"Hare is already a mess. Add MDW traffic to it and it turns into a giant nightmare.
Last edited by bob75013 on Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Coronado990
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:30 pm

I was under the impression MDW receives a lot of GA traffic. Where would that traffic go if MDW where to close. It's not all WN.
We're up.
 
desertjets
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:36 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
I was under the impression MDW receives a lot of GA traffic. Where would that traffic go if MDW where to close. It's not all WN.


Its funny how we always forget GA on this site. For GA/corporate access to downtown Chicago, MDW can't be beat. Where is all of that going to go -- O'Hare, DuPage, Palwaukee, Waukeagan, Gary??
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United787
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:38 pm

Responding to the original question:

Now that OMP (O'Hare Modernization Program) is almost done, the problem with ORD has shifted from a runway capacity problem to a significant gate shortage. I don't think the ORD 21 program will provide relief through a net gain in gates for probably 5 years. And once the 1st Phase is completed, I think the 10-20 years of pent up demand will allow the airlines to grow into the new gates pretty quick. I bet the 3rd & 4th satellites will be announced within 2 years of the completion of the 1st phase... if not before completion.

MDW has 43 gates. I think you would need a 5th (and maybe 6th) satellite to accommodate MDW without restricting future ORD growth. I think the ORD runways could handle MDW's capacity but it would take a lot more gates than currently planned.

Also, I think the MDW terminal is a beautiful and efficient airport, it is only 15 years old and is being updated to accommodate changing needs. It is directly connected to downtown through the Orange Line which is more than any NYC airport can say.

It also serves a large swath of the city that would be under served without it. In fact, without it, GYY would probably become more viable and so we would end up with a 2nd airport anyway... or the south side politicians would get on the stupid Peotone bandwagon again. Chicagoland is way too big geographically to have just one airport and it's 9.5 million people can certainly support a 2nd airport.
 
as739x
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:43 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
DL717 wrote:

The FAA will not allow closure of MDW. Period. There was an absolute shit storm over Meigs Field back in 1994, but Meigs didn’t have any Federal Grant money tied to it and it was just a GA airport. If they tried to close Midway the lawsuits that would fly from the law offices at Southwest will make the Wright Amendment filings look like chicken feed and the FAA would bitch slap Chicago so hard it would knock them into Iowa.

Mods, we seriously need "thumbs up/down" options, so I can thumbs up this one to infinity and beyond!


Agreed AWAC...this thread was worth reading just to see DL717 say "the FAA would bitch slap Chicago so hard it would knock them into Iowa"
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TVNWZ
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:00 pm

Tear it down? I remember when Chicago was begging airlines to fly into a boarded up, deserted terminal at MDW.
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:01 pm

Ah yes, I can see it now..... The Richard M. Daley Urban Nature Preserve at 55th and Cicero.....

:stirthepot:
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bob75013
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:07 pm

Of course it would have to start at 2 a.m. some morning with bulldozers carving Xs into the runways -- under the cover of darkness.
 
ILS28ORD
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:32 pm

ORD maybe could handle MDWs traffic in the future but there is no reason to. MDW is perfectly functional as is, in a great location for half the population in Chicagoland, and being updated and expanded currently. Plus WN probably loves having their own personal airport. And it's always fun to land and take off from MDW.

Chicagoland is the second or third largest metro area by land size in the world behind only NYC (and maybe LA). To not have an airport as an option on both ends of the area would be a bad idea. Traffic can be horrible as is currently. And if MDW was to be closed, Peotone airport would have to be built, GYY and DPA would have to start taking more commercial flights. ORD just can't handle the combined amount of traffic it would see without a second commercial airport in the area. And MKE is too far for most. I've only driven to MKE once, and it's because the price was extremely right.

Everyone I know likes having the option of MDW and ORD.
Last edited by ILS28ORD on Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Fargo
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:37 pm

The only feasible way MDW could close is if the Peotone Airport gets built as a replacement. Since that’s not happening, MDW is not closing.
 
ScottB
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:00 pm

77H wrote:
While MDW is closer to the loop, Chicago has spent billions on the ORD redevelopment. Might make some residents near MDW question the need for two airports, especially if ORD could absorb WN’s operation. Does anyone from the Chicagoland area know what the prevailing sentiment of residents is concerning having two airports?


I suspect that a large number of residents on the South Side appreciate the jobs provided by the airport for residents of the area. WN employs well over 5,000 at MDW and the annual economic impact of the airport was estimated by the city at $7 billion by 2015. Much of that impact benefits the South Side.
 
chicawgo
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:45 pm

BigPlaneGuy13 wrote:
South siders prefer it. North and west suburbs and the city seem to prefer ORD.


This is absolutely not true. A HUGE portion of WN traffic is well-to-do Northside city folks and even North and West suburbanites that love WN and always fly them. By the way, even if you live on the north side near the lake it's still faster to get to MDW than ORD. Just take LSD to the Stevenson. Getting from the lake west to the Kennedy is a disaster -- even when it's not rush hour.
 
sircygnus
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:48 pm

In the hypothetical, with no air traffic at MDW, would ATC be able to further optimize arrival and departure patterns into ORD, or are they pretty efficient already?
 
Galvan316
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:53 pm

For me-

Living in the western suburbs, I hate MDW.

I fly out of ORD and avoid MDW if at all possible.
ORD and MDW is where youll find Me!
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:04 pm

How about tear down the building between St Harlem ave & Cicero ave and between I-55 and Bedford Park Rail Yard for Midway expansion?
 
Cubsrule
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:19 pm

sircygnus wrote:
In the hypothetical, with no air traffic at MDW, would ATC be able to further optimize arrival and departure patterns into ORD, or are they pretty efficient already?


It might help a little in certain sorts of weather like strong north winds. But in most of those weather patterns, ORD will not be working well regardless of the existence of MDW. In calm weather, ORD and MDW do not interfere with each other that much other than both sending traffic over certain fixes that can get backed up. Of course, consolidating the airports does not solve any en route traffic volume problems.
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United787
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:04 pm

chicawgo wrote:
BigPlaneGuy13 wrote:
South siders prefer it. North and west suburbs and the city seem to prefer ORD.


This is absolutely not true. A HUGE portion of WN traffic is well-to-do Northside city folks and even North and West suburbanites that love WN and always fly them. By the way, even if you live on the north side near the lake it's still faster to get to MDW than ORD. Just take LSD to the Stevenson. Getting from the lake west to the Kennedy is a disaster -- even when it's not rush hour.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

I live in Lincoln Park and MDW is usually faster. The only reason I don't goto MDW anymore is I am tied to UA with my wife's status... and I am not a WN fan... otherwise I love MDW.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:12 pm

DL717 wrote:
...bitch slap Chicago so hard it would knock them into Iowa.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Very colorful. Well done.

The only real way to make closing MDW work would be to either bulldoze a bunch around ORD and basically make a new LAX there (not happening) or to bulldoze both ORD and MDW and make some gigantic airport out in the countryside with multiple high-speed rail links to various parts of Chicago for easy access (even less likely than the previous scenario). The population of the US is growing, not shrinking. The percentage of Americans who live in cities is growing, not shrinking. The demand for air travel is growing, not shrinking. We need more airports, not fewer.
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luckyone
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:32 pm

chicawgo wrote:
BigPlaneGuy13 wrote:
South siders prefer it. North and west suburbs and the city seem to prefer ORD.


This is absolutely not true. A HUGE portion of WN traffic is well-to-do Northside city folks and even North and West suburbanites that love WN and always fly them. By the way, even if you live on the north side near the lake it's still faster to get to MDW than ORD. Just take LSD to the Stevenson. Getting from the lake west to the Kennedy is a disaster -- even when it's not rush hour.

I used both a fair bit, and have nothing against Midway (other than its security line...). I will disagree with the statement that it's quicker to get to MDW from the Northside than ORD. I lived on LSD at two different apartments over the years between Irving Park and Montrose. The time for me to drive to either airport was a wash, because no matter which airport I chose, there would be a clog somewhere along the route.
MDW -- morning, LSD is slow all the way down to the Stevenson exit, and the Stevenson gets clogged as well. Afternoon -- LSD is busy past the S curve and the Stevenson is slow from the Ryan all the way down to Cicero
ORD -- mornings were actually just fine, I could take Irving Park over to the Adams and there would be some traffic from the Junction to about Nagle, then it was clear. Afternoons Irving Park could be dicier, but in general it flowed pretty well.

Public transit, for me, was a hands down ORD winner. I would take either the 80 or 78 bus effectively from my front door, avoiding LSD and Loop traffic to the Blue Line and be done with it. Easy if I had luggage. Getting to MDW was more of a hassle because I would have to take the 146 or 136 (or 145 back when it ran) to the Loop (always traffic) and catch the Orange Line from the L, and the suitcase schlepp always seemed much more of a hassle because the convenient stops didn't have escalators. More than once I was also burned by the Orange Line being rerouted through the Loop and bypassing my stop.
 
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spinotter
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:50 pm

ILS28ORD wrote:
ORD maybe could handle MDWs traffic in the future but there is no reason to. MDW is perfectly functional as is, in a great location for half the population in Chicagoland, and being updated and expanded currently. Plus WN probably loves having their own personal airport. And it's always fun to land and take off from MDW.

Chicagoland is the second or third largest metro area by land size in the world behind only NYC (and maybe LA). To not have an airport as an option on both ends of the area would be a bad idea. Traffic can be horrible as is currently. And if MDW was to be closed, Peotone airport would have to be built, GYY and DPA would have to start taking more commercial flights. ORD just can't handle the combined amount of traffic it would see without a second commercial airport in the area. And MKE is too far for most. I've only driven to MKE once, and it's because the price was extremely right.

Everyone I know likes having the option of MDW and ORD.


You got me wondering about the land areas of the world's cities. You are more or less correct: (1) NYC, (2) Tokyo, (3) Chicago, (4) Atlanta, (5) Philadelphia, (6) Boston, (7) LA. Who knew that Boston is larger in land area than LA? https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/largest-cities-in-the-world-by-land-area.html
 
MDW22L31C
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:23 pm

If the City of Chicago would lower street at 55th/Cicero build a bridge/tunnel then extend runway 22L/4R as far northeast as it can. I would do the same at 55th and Central.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:29 pm

Close MDW and move it to GYY, if the State of Illinois can annex GYY from Indiana. :stirthepot:
Finally headed to DORKFEST! Sept 7, STL-LAX-PHX-STL. :cloudnine:
 
ScottB
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:34 pm

spinotter wrote:
You got me wondering about the land areas of the world's cities. You are more or less correct: (1) NYC, (2) Tokyo, (3) Chicago, (4) Atlanta, (5) Philadelphia, (6) Boston, (7) LA. Who knew that Boston is larger in land area than LA? https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/largest-cities-in-the-world-by-land-area.html


Without any source or explanation of how those areas are computed, those numbers are meaningless. The actual City of Boston (the political entity) is quite small at 124 sq km of land (but 232 sq km including water). The City of Los Angeles is nearly ten times as large with 1,214 sq km of land (1,302 including water). L.A. is even larger than NYC which contains 784 sq km of land.

Greater Los Angeles (87K sq km) is larger in area than all of Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, and Connecticut -- combined! The closest I can get to the area in your source for Boston is by combining the four Massachusetts counties closest to Boston, but that would include quite a bit of rural territory.
 
strfyr51
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Wed May 01, 2019 5:17 am

jcwr56 wrote:
Amazing actually no reads what he's asking.

Great answer by luckyone, but the rest...

Read the question as a hypothetical and leave the emotions out of it. MDW is not closing.

To the OP, in the current state ORD is in, no. There's the physical limitations of the terminal complex and gate availability. You'll see an announcement concerning ORD tomorrow, but even with the O'Hare 21 program, it would still not be enough terminal space to absorb MDW operations.

Phase 2 of the O'Hare 21 adds in two more satellite terminals 3 and 4 and in theory, they could add in a Western Terminal which could house WN with their own FIS too if it was planned out correctly.

So IF it was to happen, you're at least 15 -20 years away from seeing it.

Having left Chicago just over a year ago , Midway isn't going to be closed anytime soon and probably not Later either. O'Hare if far and away too far north to service the south side of Chicago. Heck! From ORD? It's nearly an hours drive down to Midway taking I-290 down to I-55 is a SOB . Not a lot of fun in the summer and It's certainly no fun in the winter aside from the tolls in getting there. Naa! Chicago needs Midway unless they intemd to build that airport in Peotone to which I say? Fat Chance!!
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Wed May 01, 2019 6:33 am

Galvan316 wrote:
To be fair, that mall down the street from MDW has one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel.

With that said, as we've seen with the annexation that ORD made with Bensenville, it would seen entirely possible that some annexation could be done potentially around the surrounding areas of MDW.


What's the nearest suburb to MDW? I'm pretty sure it's a little further away than Bensenville is to ORD.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
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PW100
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Wed May 01, 2019 9:02 am

as739x wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
DL717 wrote:

The FAA will not allow closure of MDW. Period. There was an absolute shit storm over Meigs Field back in 1994, but Meigs didn’t have any Federal Grant money tied to it and it was just a GA airport. If they tried to close Midway the lawsuits that would fly from the law offices at Southwest will make the Wright Amendment filings look like chicken feed and the FAA would bitch slap Chicago so hard it would knock them into Iowa.

Mods, we seriously need "thumbs up/down" options, so I can thumbs up this one to infinity and beyond!


Agreed AWAC...this thread was worth reading just to see DL717 say "the FAA would bitch slap Chicago so hard it would knock them into Iowa"

Agreed. Though do expect a lot of thump downs for not reading nor answering the original question . . .

Many people on here should become politician, as they are very good at answering a different question when they don't like the initial question!
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luckyone
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Wed May 01, 2019 9:58 am

ctrabs0114 wrote:
Galvan316 wrote:
To be fair, that mall down the street from MDW has one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel.

With that said, as we've seen with the annexation that ORD made with Bensenville, it would seen entirely possible that some annexation could be done potentially around the surrounding areas of MDW.


What's the nearest suburb to MDW? I'm pretty sure it's a little further away than Bensenville is to ORD.

Looking at a map, it’s Bedford Park, Burbank, and Summit. They’re about the same distance Bensenville is from O’Hare when you factor for the time it takes to get out of the O’Hare street labyrinth.
 
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United787
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Wed May 01, 2019 2:30 pm

DocLightning wrote:
The only real way to make closing MDW work would be to either bulldoze a bunch around ORD and basically make a new LAX there (not happening)


You realize that is what they just did at ORD over the past 15 years? Acres and acres of land were acquired, neighborhoods were demolished, cemeteries relocated, a major arterial road realigned, a major railroad rerouted, significant misc. airport facilities relocated, cargo facilities relocated, two new control towers constructed, new AA hanger, bridges, tunnels, detention ponds, miles and miles of new taxiways... all so 3 runways could be demolished, 4 new runways being constructed (3 already complete) and 2 runways lengthened. Next year, ORD will have 6 parallel runways, the most in the world (as far as I can tell) and with 8 runways total, also the most in the world.

LAX has 4 parallel runways but they are too close together and the LAX land area (3,500 acres) is less than half of ORD's 7,600 acres. Plus, LAX also has nowhere to grow. ORD also has direct highway access and a direct public transportation connection, LAX does not. Lastly, ORD now has an enormous amount of space in which to add more gates... which is already happening.

This image is outdated but all of the red and yellow are essentially complete and the blue is well underway.

Image

Source for image: http://aboutairportplanning.blogspot.co ... m-omp.html
 
TUSDawg23
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Wed May 01, 2019 3:05 pm

United787 wrote:
Responding to the original question:

Now that OMP (O'Hare Modernization Program) is almost done, the problem with ORD has shifted from a runway capacity problem to a significant gate shortage. I don't think the ORD 21 program will provide relief through a net gain in gates for probably 5 years. And once the 1st Phase is completed, I think the 10-20 years of pent up demand will allow the airlines to grow into the new gates pretty quick. I bet the 3rd & 4th satellites will be announced within 2 years of the completion of the 1st phase... if not before completion.

MDW has 43 gates. I think you would need a 5th (and maybe 6th) satellite to accommodate MDW without restricting future ORD growth. I think the ORD runways could handle MDW's capacity but it would take a lot more gates than currently planned.

Also, I think the MDW terminal is a beautiful and efficient airport, it is only 15 years old and is being updated to accommodate changing needs. It is directly connected to downtown through the Orange Line which is more than any NYC airport can say.

It also serves a large swath of the city that would be under served without it. In fact, without it, GYY would probably become more viable and so we would end up with a 2nd airport anyway... or the south side politicians would get on the stupid Peotone bandwagon again. Chicagoland is way too big geographically to have just one airport and it's 9.5 million people can certainly support a 2nd airport.


I would beg to differ about MDW being a beautiful airport. It's functional, but beautiful isn't what I would call it. I was pretty underwhelmed as a connecting pax at the lack of food options and seating at the gate area.
 
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spinotter
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Wed May 01, 2019 3:50 pm

TUSDawg23 wrote:
United787 wrote:
Responding to the original question:

Now that OMP (O'Hare Modernization Program) is almost done, the problem with ORD has shifted from a runway capacity problem to a significant gate shortage. I don't think the ORD 21 program will provide relief through a net gain in gates for probably 5 years. And once the 1st Phase is completed, I think the 10-20 years of pent up demand will allow the airlines to grow into the new gates pretty quick. I bet the 3rd & 4th satellites will be announced within 2 years of the completion of the 1st phase... if not before completion.

MDW has 43 gates. I think you would need a 5th (and maybe 6th) satellite to accommodate MDW without restricting future ORD growth. I think the ORD runways could handle MDW's capacity but it would take a lot more gates than currently planned.

Also, I think the MDW terminal is a beautiful and efficient airport, it is only 15 years old and is being updated to accommodate changing needs. It is directly connected to downtown through the Orange Line which is more than any NYC airport can say.

It also serves a large swath of the city that would be under served without it. In fact, without it, GYY would probably become more viable and so we would end up with a 2nd airport anyway... or the south side politicians would get on the stupid Peotone bandwagon again. Chicagoland is way too big geographically to have just one airport and it's 9.5 million people can certainly support a 2nd airport.


I would beg to differ about MDW being a beautiful airport. It's functional, but beautiful isn't what I would call it. I was pretty underwhelmed as a connecting pax at the lack of food options and seating at the gate area.


MDW is okay for its size and service patterns. There are not going to be rich international first class passengers departing on WN from MDW. I grew up in Illinois and MDW is exactly what one would expect from South Side Chicago.
 
BigPlaneGuy13
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Wed May 01, 2019 4:34 pm

luckyone wrote:
chicawgo wrote:
BigPlaneGuy13 wrote:
South siders prefer it. North and west suburbs and the city seem to prefer ORD.


This is absolutely not true. A HUGE portion of WN traffic is well-to-do Northside city folks and even North and West suburbanites that love WN and always fly them. By the way, even if you live on the north side near the lake it's still faster to get to MDW than ORD. Just take LSD to the Stevenson. Getting from the lake west to the Kennedy is a disaster -- even when it's not rush hour.

I used both a fair bit, and have nothing against Midway (other than its security line...). I will disagree with the statement that it's quicker to get to MDW from the Northside than ORD. I lived on LSD at two different apartments over the years between Irving Park and Montrose. The time for me to drive to either airport was a wash, because no matter which airport I chose, there would be a clog somewhere along the route.
MDW -- morning, LSD is slow all the way down to the Stevenson exit, and the Stevenson gets clogged as well. Afternoon -- LSD is busy past the S curve and the Stevenson is slow from the Ryan all the way down to Cicero
ORD -- mornings were actually just fine, I could take Irving Park over to the Adams and there would be some traffic from the Junction to about Nagle, then it was clear. Afternoons Irving Park could be dicier, but in general it flowed pretty well.

Public transit, for me, was a hands down ORD winner. I would take either the 80 or 78 bus effectively from my front door, avoiding LSD and Loop traffic to the Blue Line and be done with it. Easy if I had luggage. Getting to MDW was more of a hassle because I would have to take the 146 or 136 (or 145 back when it ran) to the Loop (always traffic) and catch the Orange Line from the L, and the suitcase schlepp always seemed much more of a hassle because the convenient stops didn't have escalators. More than once I was also burned by the Orange Line being rerouted through the Loop and bypassing my stop.


I'll revise my statement: growing up on the south side, nobody went to ORD and very heavily seemed to favor WN and MDW due to its stigma of being cheaper than AA and UA. So south siders definitely prefer MDW, everyone else looks at all their options.

From the far south suburbs it's pretty equal travel times to get to both airports. More distance to ORD, but all expressway driving. Less distance to MDW, but more traffic lights up Cicero.

I think the way you factor in travel times can be subjective too. Having the CTA trains at both airports to take you right into the city really negates the convenience of one more than the other imo. One travel time may be longer than the other but at least it's not driving.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Wed May 01, 2019 4:48 pm

Lest we not forget that MDW and ORD serve a lot more than just the city of Chicago. MDW is, for example, far more convenient for pax driving to/from Indiana than ORD. Chicagoland has all kinds of important business hubs in suburban areas well outside the city and as such, just like the Bay Area, Greater Los Angeles, South Florida, etc. is very much deserving of multiple commercial service airports...
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United787
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Wed May 01, 2019 6:18 pm

TUSDawg23 wrote:
I would beg to differ about MDW being a beautiful airport. It's functional, but beautiful isn't what I would call it. I was pretty underwhelmed as a connecting pax at the lack of food options and seating at the gate area.


Point taken on the beautiful. But I would say clean, modern and very pleasant design. Way above the average US airport.
 
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DL717
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Wed May 01, 2019 6:35 pm

PW100 wrote:
as739x wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
Mods, we seriously need "thumbs up/down" options, so I can thumbs up this one to infinity and beyond!


Agreed AWAC...this thread was worth reading just to see DL717 say "the FAA would bitch slap Chicago so hard it would knock them into Iowa"

Agreed. Though do expect a lot of thump downs for not reading nor answering the original question . . .

Many people on here should become politician, as they are very good at answering a different question when they don't like the initial question!


I know right? That whole part in the OP about ORD absorbing MDW and people questioning the need for two airports coupled with asking about the value in keeping MDW really threw me for a loop. :roll:
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muralir
Posts: 92
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Re: O’Hare Redesign and Midway

Thu May 02, 2019 5:56 pm

You ask two separate questions: *could* ORD absorb MDW with all the new expansion, and 2) is there benefit to keeping MDW open beyond just convenience to downtown.

Regarding #1, being used to ORD operations, I think we Chicagoans drastically underestimate just how busy MDW is. By total passenger traffic, MDW is ranked #27 in the country. For comparison, that's just a little less busy than DCA or IAD, and busier than Tampa or Portland. IOW, you're asking ORD to absorb nearly the capacity of IAD while maintaining its own traffic. That would be a tall order, especially given that the current airlines at ORD are clamoring for more gate space already. Most of the planned gate expansion is already spoken for by UA/AA who have already been allocated additional gates. There are very few gates left over for expansion beyond what UA/AA have already requested. To make room for MDW, you'd have to probably build an additional 2 concourses, if not more. So at least for this first phase of gate expansion (i.e. covering the next 10 years), there's no space left over for much beyond relieving pent-up demand at ORD itself. Accommodating MDW's traffic as well is out of the question.

Regarding #2, keeping MDW open absolutely has benefits. As others mentioned, MDW provides economic benefit to the south and west sides. It's also configured differently (short taxi times, largely domestic with short distances between connecting gates, etc.) that make it well suited to Southwest's operations. Force Southwest to deal with 20-minute taxi times at ORD, and force them to schedule longer layover times to allow connecting passengers to walk the massive concourses at ORD, and they'll likely say "no thank you" and move their connecting traffic to another airport rather than shift to ORD.

If anything, I'd argue that, in addition to ORD's expansion, we should consider expanding MDW, possibly by acquiring surrounding land and extending the runways to enable true simultaneous use, while expanding the gate space. MDW and ORD serve entirely different markets. The real competition to MDW for attracting new flights isn't ORD, but DAL and other mid-size airports that offer the same benefits that MDW does for Southwest and other short-haul domestic operators. Eliminate MDW, and it's more likely that Southwest will shift flights there, than shift flights to ORD.

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