Welcome to Indian Aviation Thread May 2019. Please continue to add your comments below

Link to last thread

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1419195&p=21319361#p21319361

AirAsia India also plans to induct Jet Airways Boeing 737s

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 108035.cms

A sincere request to all members NOT to bring up any discussions regarding the demand for a BLR-SFO route or why Hyderabad lost out to Bengaluru in the aviation race. Let this be a forum for information, not trumpeting.

This could be the best summer yet for Vistara

Vistara, the Tata group – Singapore Airlines joint venture was infused with equity of Rs 900 crore by the shareholders recently. This came amid speculation that the Tatas, which also own a majority stake in AirAsia India, would bid for Jet Airways. The bid was never made and the group withdrew after initial talks in November.

Vistara has been in losses since inception in January 2015. That is understandable as the airline industry does not give instant returns. However, the airline has also had a steep learning curve, having to re-configure the aircraft twice in the past.

How will this be : (My view)
Vistara taking 5 B777s and 20-22 B737s and reconstructing most of jet's BOM hub (More than 60%). Good for most of jet's Mumbai based staff and good for BOM as it will retain FSC hub status.

binayak wrote:

How will this be : (My view)
Vistara taking 5 B777s and 20-22 B737s and reconstructing most of jet's BOM hub (More than 60%). Good for most of jet's Mumbai based staff and good for BOM as it will retain FSC hub status.

Sorry but conditions for UK are not any better than those for 9W. LCC neck breaking competition still remains. I would be glad if they just post profitable results

I would love to see B777 in Vistara colours.

binayak wrote:

How will this be : (My view)
Vistara taking 5 B777s and 20-22 B737s and reconstructing most of jet's BOM hub (More than 60%). Good for most of jet's Mumbai based staff and good for BOM as it will retain FSC hub status.

It appears Vistara, Indigo, GoAir, and AirAsia are not part of the originally blessed plan. AI has to wait for the scraps.

Is it not possible for AI to shift it's flights to the EU by grabbing slots at BOM and flying from there temporarily instead of DEL till the Pakistani airspace opens up?

I would honestly want Vistara to start flights to EU by taking slots from BOM.

LHR and AMS routes were doing pretty good, so if Vistara takes B777 from 9W then they could start it but again I don't think so now the slots at LHR and AMS are available.

Slash787 wrote:

I would honestly want Vistara to start flights to EU by taking slots from BOM.

LHR and AMS routes were doing pretty good, so if Vistara takes B777 from 9W then they could start it but again I don't think so now the slots at LHR and AMS are available.

Having your first International flight in a widebody to Europe sounds like a recipe for disaster.
9W's LHR & AMS success was attributable to their DL-AF-KLM JV. Vistara has nothing as such to bank upon

anshabhi wrote:

Slash787 wrote:

I would honestly want Vistara to start flights to EU by taking slots from BOM.

LHR and AMS routes were doing pretty good, so if Vistara takes B777 from 9W then they could start it but again I don't think so now the slots at LHR and AMS are available.

Having your first International flight in a widebody to Europe sounds like a recipe for disaster.
9W's LHR & AMS success was attributable to their DL-AF-KLM JV. Vistara has nothing as such to bank upon

You are right. There is nothing to stop Vistara from stepping in. I am sure DL/AF would love that. SQ is not even close to LH (I think they are frenemies at best). Vistara could even use SQ planes (or pilots) to get the routes started. For what ever reason it is like Vistara/tatas want to ensure Jet is 100% dead. We all have accepted / moved on, but they are still hesitant. Who knows what they are thinking...

Slash787 wrote:

I would honestly want Vistara to start flights to EU by taking slots from BOM.

LHR and AMS routes were doing pretty good, so if Vistara takes B777 from 9W then they could start it but again I don't think so now the slots at LHR and AMS are available.

As much as I do not think the time is right for Vistara to expand into Europe, I don't think they would necessarily fail. The airline has codeshare and interline agreement with British Airways. If this was expanded then it could allow Vistara to use its B787 that it has on order to launch a new Mumbai/Delhi - London route, as British Airways do not have spare aircraft for such a route. Obviously slots would need to be found, but British Airways don't use all their allocated slots at the moment

Watching Jeff Goldblum's running and screaming clip is the best way to explain Indian carrier WB ops.

UK already ordered 6x789s, $130 Million each = $780 Million, plus support contracts, crew training, and logistics. $1B+ right there even on lease. If they go Goldcare route it will cost a fortune, if they go frugal IRROPS will be a mess.

Long/Ultra long haul, in general, is not a money printing machine as every here seems to think. Even the best "management" cannot change market conditions and route economics. Loss-making long-haul can take down the entire airline.

LHR slot in the open market is $75Million. BOM-LHR premium market is huge and a stronghold for Indian carriers. UK should capture this market, probably by getting an early production slot on 789, not by taking 9W 77Ws.

Delta is starting JFK-BOM from December 22nd . Wonder how connections at BOM side will play here . I don't think they're dependent on (late) 9W at the moment . Wonder who is their new partner .

Here is the link to Delta's news hub:

https://news.delta.com/nonstop-mumbai-n ... gin-dec-22

JFK 21:15 - BOM 22:50 +1
BOM 00.50 - JFK 06:35

Equipment: 77L.

VTORD wrote:

Here is the link to Delta's news hub:

https://news.delta.com/nonstop-mumbai-n ... gin-dec-22

JFK 21:15 - BOM 22:50 +1
BOM 00.50 - JFK 06:35

Equipment: 77L.

While this is good news, what are the connecting options in Mumbai with a middle of the night arrival time?

CaliguyNYC wrote:

SQ is not even close to LH (I think they are frenemies at best). Vistara could even use SQ planes (or pilots) to get the routes started. For what ever reason it is like Vistara/tatas want to ensure Jet is 100% dead. We all have accepted / moved on, but they are still hesitant. Who knows what they are thinking...

Actually SQ and LH have a JV since 2017. In fact Vistara shows up as a domestic connecting partner from DEL on both LH and UA booking engines.
https://www.singaporeair.com/en_UK/es/m ... 617-170928

edealinfo wrote:

While this is good news, what are the connecting options in Mumbai with a middle of the night arrival time?

I don't know who the domestic partner will be. Personally I was one of those skeptics who thought this route won't materialize w/o 9W but happy to be proven wrong. From a timings stand point this isn't very different from UA48/49. I think only about 90 minutes apart.

There are multiple connections to domestic destination even in the middle of the night, considering Jet is dead, they may have an interline agreement will someone, and it's just a B777L, not many seats to fill, just connections from the US end is enough to make BOM work by itself.

edealinfo wrote:

VTORD wrote:

Here is the link to Delta's news hub:

https://news.delta.com/nonstop-mumbai-n ... gin-dec-22

JFK 21:15 - BOM 22:50 +1
BOM 00.50 - JFK 06:35

Equipment: 77L.

While this is good news, what are the connecting options in Mumbai with a middle of the night arrival time?

Jet used to have a 3am mini bank. Other airlines have a few flights. Probably Blr, hyd, maa will exist once things stabilize.
Super happy about this news. I think 9W going away might have helped the flight as there is a shortage of Skyteam seats to Bom. Delta will rely on connecting pax in the US rather than india.

Allocation of Jet's Former 737 Planes:
40 to Spicejet
10 to Vistara (6 in May , 4 in June)

Meanwhile Air India Express is set to hire 250 Jet staff.

Source: See the body of the report on allocation of jet's former planes.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 122780.cms

I wanted to ask about e-mail messages that I just got from British Airways. This is for India flights fairly far into the future. I was surprised to see two notifications of equipment changes .

BA119 from London to Bangalore in mid-December is now on a 4-class Boeing 787-9. It was booked on a three-class Boeing 777-200. I’ve done this trip a bunch of times, and it’s been mostly 777-200s with the occasional 777-300.

BA142 from Delhi to London in mid-January 2020 is now on an Airbus A380. It was booked on a 4-class Boeing 787-9.

Were these changes announced on any public forum or other source? Are they permanent changes? Does any of this have to do with Jet’s demise? A.netters are usually quite current with such news.

I should add that I have a few other flights on BA between now and November, and they are the usual mix of 777 and 787. Nothing unusual and no change notifications.

VTORD wrote:

Here is the link to Delta's news hub:

https://news.delta.com/nonstop-mumbai-n ... gin-dec-22

JFK 21:15 - BOM 22:50 +1
BOM 00.50 - JFK 06:35

Equipment: 77L.

Awesome news. Have always loved DL. They seem to focus on BOM more than DEL always. Hope AA is next to start some new US city to DEL/BOM.

Oh thank you Aviation God, may this piece of news finally bring to rest the extremely protracted series of mostly pointless arguments on the DL to serve BOM thread. Seriously!

ameya wrote:

This could be the best summer yet for Vistara

Vistara, the Tata group – Singapore Airlines joint venture was infused with equity of Rs 900 crore by the shareholders recently. This came amid speculation that the Tatas, which also own a majority stake in AirAsia India, would bid for Jet Airways. The bid was never made and the group withdrew after initial talks in November.

Vistara has been in losses since inception in January 2015. That is understandable as the airline industry does not give instant returns. However, the airline has also had a steep learning curve, having to re-configure the aircraft twice in the past.

can somebody give some more info. on the 're-configuring the aircraft twice in the past' bit by Vistara ?

pune wrote:

ameya wrote:

This could be the best summer yet for Vistara

Vistara, the Tata group – Singapore Airlines joint venture was infused with equity of Rs 900 crore by the shareholders recently. This came amid speculation that the Tatas, which also own a majority stake in AirAsia India, would bid for Jet Airways. The bid was never made and the group withdrew after initial talks in November.

Vistara has been in losses since inception in January 2015. That is understandable as the airline industry does not give instant returns. However, the airline has also had a steep learning curve, having to re-configure the aircraft twice in the past.

can somebody give some more info. on the 're-configuring the aircraft twice in the past' bit by Vistara ?

Below links should give you idea..

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 189795.cms

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 510_1.html

Vistara took 100 Pilots 450 CC
AIX took 50 Captains and 200 CC
SG says it took 1000 employees,no details, could be ground staff.

I think 9W employees are making the right choices.

dtw2hyd wrote:

SG says it took 1000 employees, no details, could be ground staff.

FACTCHECK: SG has reported hiring 1000 Jet employees including 100 pilots.

killswitch13 wrote:

Is it not possible for AI to shift it's flights to the EU by grabbing slots at BOM and flying from there temporarily instead of DEL till the Pakistani airspace opens up?

Most of the crew is now Delhi based. Cost will be incurred on providing accommodation at BOM with a clear rest of 24 hours before operating the EU/US flight. Again seats will have to be blocked on the DEL-BOM-DEL flights for flying the crew to operate flights,

dtw2hyd wrote:

Vistara took 100 Pilots 450 CC
AIX took 50 Captains and 200 CC
SG says it took 1000 employees,no details, could be ground staff.

I think 9W employees are making the right choices.

Why isn't 6E pouncing on this opportunity? They are the ones with the most captain shortages. It is completely unlike 6E not to get the most out of a situation.

EmoticonsAllDay wrote:

Why isn't 6E pouncing on this opportunity? They are the ones with the most captain shortages. It is completely unlike 6E not to get the most out of a situation.

Cost of cross rating pilots (captains) from 737 to 320. Will take upto 6 months or more to get them on A320 command along with bearing the new type rating costs. They can however absorb a whole lot of ATR & A330 pilots.
However, word has been among the pilot community (also heard through my pilot mates) that working conditions (painful rosters) deter pilots from joining 6E. Vistara is very much preferred apparently.

Top 20 airports by total passenger traffic

Source: https://networkthoughts.com/2019/05/01/ ... -in-india/
BLR 3 HYD 6.
6>3 therefore HYD is bigger airport than BLR.

unrave wrote:

Top 20 airports by total passenger traffic

Source: https://networkthoughts.com/2019/05/01/ ... -in-india/
BLR 3 HYD 6.
6>3 therefore HYD is bigger airport than BLR.

Amazing PAT is in the list given such a dungeon they call an Airport...it has traffic to increase but the airport limitation is a major stumbling block..

AI will not charge any cancellation or change fee within 24 hours of booking.

Similar to what 9W used to offer if you booked through its official website

When did 6E gain permission for NEO ETOPS ops?
How's this NEO flying to DXB??

Check out playback of aircraft VT-ITP from Amritsar to Dubai on Flightradar24. https://fr24.com/data/aircraft/vt-itp#2055b5d0

TEMPO wrote:

I wanted to ask about e-mail messages that I just got from British Airways. This is for India flights fairly far into the future. I was surprised to see two notifications of equipment changes .

BA119 from London to Bangalore in mid-December is now on a 4-class Boeing 787-9. It was booked on a three-class Boeing 777-200. I’ve done this trip a bunch of times, and it’s been mostly 777-200s with the occasional 777-300.

BA142 from Delhi to London in mid-January 2020 is now on an Airbus A380. It was booked on a 4-class Boeing 787-9.

Were these changes announced on any public forum or other source? Are they permanent changes? Does any of this have to do with Jet’s demise? A.netters are usually quite current with such news.

I should add that I have a few other flights on BA between now and November, and they are the usual mix of 777 and 787. Nothing unusual and no change notifications.

The A380 definitely seems like a capacity adjustment in light of the Jet development. And AFAIK, the 789 for the new 3 x Weekly BOM flights for June is coming from JNB based on dates.
The BLR is a bit surprising - that would be a significant reduction in seat count but haven't seen anything official.
They also announced in early April that in S20 BOM is going to 772 on BA138/139 from current 789.

I see you have only 1 post....Welcome!

unnayan wrote:

pune wrote:

ameya wrote:

This could be the best summer yet for Vistara

Vistara, the Tata group – Singapore Airlines joint venture was infused with equity of Rs 900 crore by the shareholders recently. This came amid speculation that the Tatas, which also own a majority stake in AirAsia India, would bid for Jet Airways. The bid was never made and the group withdrew after initial talks in November.

Vistara has been in losses since inception in January 2015. That is understandable as the airline industry does not give instant returns. However, the airline has also had a steep learning curve, having to re-configure the aircraft twice in the past.

can somebody give some more info. on the 're-configuring the aircraft twice in the past' bit by Vistara ?

Below links should give you idea..

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 189795.cms

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 510_1.html

Thank you, from the above, it seems they are going more for the economy seats while being an FSC, the only hurt was and will be felt by people in the Premium Economy and above cabins, although being the only FSC (besides Air India) they should be able to have good margins, shouldn't they ?

unrave wrote:

Top 20 airports by total passenger traffic

Source: https://networkthoughts.com/2019/05/01/ ... -in-india/
BLR 3 HYD 6.
6>3 therefore HYD is bigger airport than BLR.

Love you for sharing this

VTORD wrote:

TEMPO wrote:

I wanted to ask about e-mail messages that I just got from British Airways. This is for India flights fairly far into the future. I was surprised to see two notifications of equipment changes .

BA119 from London to Bangalore in mid-December is now on a 4-class Boeing 787-9. It was booked on a three-class Boeing 777-200. I’ve done this trip a bunch of times, and it’s been mostly 777-200s with the occasional 777-300.

BA142 from Delhi to London in mid-January 2020 is now on an Airbus A380. It was booked on a 4-class Boeing 787-9.

Were these changes announced on any public forum or other source? Are they permanent changes? Does any of this have to do with Jet’s demise? A.netters are usually quite current with such news.

I should add that I have a few other flights on BA between now and November, and they are the usual mix of 777 and 787. Nothing unusual and no change notifications.

The A380 definitely seems like a capacity adjustment in light of the Jet development. And AFAIK, the 789 for the new 3 x Weekly BOM flights for June is coming from JNB based on dates.
The BLR is a bit surprising - that would be a significant reduction in seat count but haven't seen anything official.
They also announced in early April that in S20 BOM is going to 772 on BA138/139 from current 789.

I see you have only 1 post....Welcome!

Thanks. I’ve been a long time lurker, reading but not contributing!

If the BLR change is permanent, the flight has become premium heavy with a loss of 70 economy seats according to BA’s seat maps. I wonder if the Air India economy air fares are a factor.

The DEL change is almost simultaneous with LH’s decision to send a 747-400 instead of an A380. That may have further influenced BA’s decision in addition to the Jet Airways effect, if an A380 gate has become available. Delhi has only 2 or 3 A380 gates, if I remember right, and SQ definitely uses one of them, though I’m not sure of timings.

A search of the usual Internet sources did not show either of the two changes above being publicly announced.

With today’s Azhar/JeM ruling at the United Nations, Northern Pakistani airspace (via Lahore) may yet open up after May 23rd, if negotiations work out. Delhi flights to NA/Europe would be back on track, possibly by May 31st as seems to be widely anticipated. It’ll be interesting times as we move to India’s high season without Jet.

unrave wrote:

Top 20 airports by total passenger traffic

Source: https://networkthoughts.com/2019/05/01/ ... -in-india/
BLR 3 HYD 6.
6>3 therefore HYD is bigger airport than BLR.

Many thanks for this share. Was waiting for someone to share this ever since FY2018-19 ended.

Truly an amazing feat by Bagdogra/IXB, my hometown airport in West Bengal, in reaching the Top 20 table this time with 43%, 48% and now 28% YoY growth. Being an airport serving an overall much less densely populated and less industrialized region of India (The chicken's neck corridor) than at least 30 of the busiest airports, it relies heavily on tourist traffic from around the world and connecting pax from the nearby states of Sikkim & North East Bihar and the towns across the border in Nepal, Bhutan & Bangladesh.
The sad fact of the matter is that the growth could have been way more but owing to state politics not allowing the purchase of land for expansion, has not been able to so far. With a lousy age old terminal that was designed for 400 pax/hr it now handles more than 4-5 times as many pax during its peak hours, when security queues sometimes surpass 1-1.5 hrs!

Also Patna/PAT seeing 30% growth with its small terminal is another such example of gross lack of adequate airport infrastructure at some key airports around the country.

BLR has shown some amazing growth w.r.t not only India but airports above 25 mil around the world. Maintaining over 20% growth at this level is an astounding feat to say the least. The new terminal can't come sooner!

Also, I am assuming COK's standstill numbers are due to the horrific flood related closure that the airport sustained in 2018.

Operations at BBI and CCU will remain suspended till the conditions improve i.e. unannounced date, in view of the cyclone Fani

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 151090.cms


I am just surprised how big the estimated impact of this cyclone is. All the trains along Bay of Bengal coast also stand cancelled

anshabhi wrote:

Operations at BBI and CCU will remain suspended till the conditions improve i.e. unannounced date, in view of the cyclone Fani

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 151090.cms


I am just surprised how big the estimated impact of this cyclone is. All the trains along Bay of Bengal coast also stand cancelled

It will hit the coast tonight or tomorrow . So you can expect it to subside by Sunday .

binayak wrote:

anshabhi wrote:

Operations at BBI and CCU will remain suspended till the conditions improve i.e. unannounced date, in view of the cyclone Fani

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 151090.cms


I am just surprised how big the estimated impact of this cyclone is. All the trains along Bay of Bengal coast also stand cancelled

It will hit the coast tonight or tomorrow . So you can expect it to subside by Sunday .

This is the largest cyclone ever since the 1999 cyclone which led to massive casualties.

I am very happy and proud to see great coordination between metrological department, coast guard and NDRF.

Flight ops at VTZ also massively impacted.

anshabhi wrote:

Operations at BBI and CCU will remain suspended till the conditions improve i.e. unannounced date, in view of the cyclone Fani

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 151090.cms


I am just surprised how big the estimated impact of this cyclone is. All the trains along Bay of Bengal coast also stand cancelled

I saw the cyclone on the map, it seems fuckiing BIIIIIIG . Sorry for that but it looked lika a monster against the map of India. I hope there is not much of human loss, devastation due to the cyclone. There would be material loss for sure. Fingers crossed.

I dunno if somebody else saw this or not https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/2/18518 ... dium=email . While probably better put in 737 Max thread but even here it wouldn't be out of place as even we have been impact due to the groundings.

binayak wrote:

How will this be : (My view)
Vistara taking 5 B777s and 20-22 B737s and reconstructing most of jet's BOM hub (More than 60%). Good for most of jet's Mumbai based staff and good for BOM as it will retain FSC hub status.

Jet Airways, v2

Spicejet new flights using Jet slots:
New route launches:
Mumbai – Srinagar – Jammu – Mumbai
Mumbai – Dehradun
Mumbai – Madurai
Mumbai – Guwahati
Delhi – Vishakhapatnam
Delhi – Kochi

2nd Daily on existing routes :
Mumbai – Jaipur
Mumbai – Coimbatore
Mumbai – Kochi
Mumbai – Gorakhpur

Additional frequency on existing high frequency routes:
Mumbai – Delhi
Mumbai – Bengaluru
Mumbai – Chennai (2 additional)
Delhi – Srinagar

Starting progressively from May 4th, 8th & 11th.



Route map of domestic route additions by SpiceJet using Jet Airways slots and 737s

Additional flights from SpiceJet.....I wouldn't be surprised if there are daily announcements as opposed to announcing all new flights at one-shot (may help diffuse allegations of slots "grab")

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 162242.cms

CaliguyNYC wrote:

anshabhi wrote:

Slash787 wrote:

I would honestly want Vistara to start flights to EU by taking slots from BOM.

LHR and AMS routes were doing pretty good, so if Vistara takes B777 from 9W then they could start it but again I don't think so now the slots at LHR and AMS are available.

Having your first International flight in a widebody to Europe sounds like a recipe for disaster.
9W's LHR & AMS success was attributable to their DL-AF-KLM JV. Vistara has nothing as such to bank upon

You are right. There is nothing to stop Vistara from stepping in. I am sure DL/AF would love that. SQ is not even close to LH (I think they are frenemies at best). Vistara could even use SQ planes (or pilots) to get the routes started. For what ever reason it is like Vistara/tatas want to ensure Jet is 100% dead. We all have accepted / moved on, but they are still hesitant. Who knows what they are thinking...

DL just announced JFK-BOM. Let’s see how many Medallion Members take to the sky.

I hope DL succeeds; if it does then there is some hope.