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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 16, 2019 9:32 pm

morrisond wrote:
It's quite scary and damning that ET didn't seem to learn anything from Flight 409 - it sounds like it's Pilots faced a lot of the same issues as ET -302
Quite fankly this lends a lot of credence to what a lot of us are saying what happened on ET-302

Have you ever read all the pages of the final ET409 report ? Your so strong claims serve your emotion without factual analysis. In fact you presented absolutely no analysis at all. Just your biased emotion. This do not lend any credence to what your are saying repetitively so often that you effectively hijacked the real subject of this thread.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
many321
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 16, 2019 9:59 pm

Sure Boeing...whatever you say....

After yesterday's theatrics in Congress by trashing the four dead pilots, I'll wait for the other watchdog organizations to give us the go ahead.

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130434
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 16, 2019 10:23 pm

many321 wrote:
Sure Boeing...whatever you say....

After yesterday's theatrics in Congress by trashing the four dead pilots, I'll wait for the other watchdog organizations to give us the go ahead.

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130434

I think the new buzz word is "collaboration" -- how can one argue against collaboration and in favor of broken down uncoordinated decisions?

AvWeek ( https://aviationweek.com/commercial-avi ... rs-meeting ) says:

    FAA leadership sees the upcoming meeting of regulators discussing the Boeing 737 MAX return-to-flight approval process as a key step towards restoring global aviation safety-related collaboration that broke down in the wake of uncoordinated decisions to ground the aircraft, the agency’s top official said May 15.

    The May 23 meeting in Dallas, called by FAA and first reported by Aviation Week, is slated to include regulators from many of the 57 countries that banned MAX operations following the Mar. 10 Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 (ET302) accident. FAA’s aim: present details behind its analysis of proposed changes that Boeing is making to the MAX’s flight control computer software and training, and answer questions.

    “The goal is to offer all of these countries who have grounded or prohibited [737 MAX operations] the benefit of all the information and all the thinking,” FAA Acting Administrator Dan Elwell told the U.S. House of Representatives aviation subcommittee May 15. “My hope is that they have the confidence in our work and our analysis to make their ungrounding decisions—if that’s where the discussions [goes]—as close to our decision as possible. I think that it’s important for the world to have some level of confidence.”

How benevolent of FAA to share all the information and all the thinking so that all those uncoordinated decisions get coordinated and the world can have some level of confidence once again.

And let's all obey the ground rules of only discussing proposed changes that Boeing is making to the MAX’s flight control computer software and training.

Let's all ignore the elephant in the corner of the room that wants to talk about why such changes were needed in the first place.

As I've written before, this "blinders on, all speed ahead" strategy Boeing (and its tightly coupled appendage, FAA) is following does get to the goal line the fastest, but is risky as hell.

Yet, so far, it seems no one is willing to get in front of the steamroller and yell "stop!"...
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 16, 2019 11:15 pm

Revelation wrote:
Let's all ignore the elephant in the corner of the room that wants to talk about why such changes were needed in the first place.

As I've written before, this "blinders on, all speed ahead" strategy Boeing (and its tightly coupled appendage, FAA) is following does get to the goal line the fastest, but is risky as hell.

Yet, so far, it seems no one is willing to get in front of the steamroller and yell "stop!"...

Well the large elephant in the room is the US Congress, the FAA is a Federal body, congress had to approve their out-sourcing.
Heaven forbid but I only see them making serious changes to the oversight situation if another disaster happens with similar conditions like MCAS.
Yes there are Boeing supporters and haters on the Hill - despite popular belief - and the detractors will not willingly assist Boeing resolving this issue, unfortunately, fair play being what it is, they will have to produce more evidence of malfeasance which will be a double edge sword.
If we take some of the rhetoric we hear, how can we allow any newly built a/c to fly that is produced by management that is deemed criminal?
The 737 / 787 / 777 produced years ago under old management does not have to be the same as produced today, were short cuts taken, safety compromised, pax and pilots put at risk etc etc etc.

I am hoping that the details of the 23rd May meeting are released so we can get more concrete info and move away from all the flame bait and piling on.
 
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hilram
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 16, 2019 11:33 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/how-much-was-pilot-error-a-factor-in-the-boeing-737-max-crashes/

The lead Republican on the US House Committee, relying on a study essentially financed by Boeing stockholders, announces just about all the problems were with poor pilots, as opposed to good good American pilots. (snarky note - is this going to become Republican orthodoxy?) American airline pilots (and other IIRC) have strongly disagreed that the Ethiopian pilots were/are mostly responsible.

I would further say that if Boeing wants to sell planes to the rest of the world they need to suck it up and accept that they are 60-80% responsible. This also means settlement of suits and payments to airlines. Likely $5 billion if they are lucky.


WOW!
With the route Boeing is going now, they squander the confidence they had left from the public.
What they are basically saying between the lines - through their puppet politicians with pockets lined with campaing funding - is that "inferior" countries should stop buying our planes.

Boeing, if you're reading this: Is this really something you want to communicate?
It is time you ask yourselves the question you should have asked yourselves when you were balancing Zero Sim Time Requirement vs. Single Sensor Input to MCAS: What will cost more in the long run?


Would it not be more prudent at this time to hold your hands up and at least admit an error of judgement with regards to the MCAS original design and implementation?

BTW: How could the Lion Air pilots "recognize" something that was not disclosed to them? Is clairvoyance now a mandatory pilot skill?
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | CRJ9 | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 1:37 am

hilram wrote:
WOW!
With the route Boeing is going now, they squander the confidence they had left from the public.
What they are basically saying between the lines - through their puppet politicians with pockets lined with campaing funding - is that "inferior" countries should stop buying our planes.

Boeing, if you're reading this: Is this really something you want to communicate?
It is time you ask yourselves the question you should have asked yourselves when you were balancing Zero Sim Time Requirement vs. Single Sensor Input to MCAS: What will cost more in the long run?

Would it not be more prudent at this time to hold your hands up and at least admit an error of judgement with regards to the MCAS original design and implementation?

BTW: How could the Lion Air pilots "recognize" something that was not disclosed to them? Is clairvoyance now a mandatory pilot skill?

You seem to be willing to assert that "Boeing" and "US Congress" are one and the same.

You seem to be unable to allow for the idea that certain Congressmen take extreme positions designed to appeal to their voter base.

I think you need to perhaps understand more about how publicly elected officials operate, but feel free to inform me otherwise...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 2:36 am

PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
It's quite scary and damning that ET didn't seem to learn anything from Flight 409 - it sounds like it's Pilots faced a lot of the same issues as ET -302
Quite fankly this lends a lot of credence to what a lot of us are saying what happened on ET-302

Have you ever read all the pages of the final ET409 report ? Your so strong claims serve your emotion without factual analysis. In fact you presented absolutely no analysis at all. Just your biased emotion. This do not lend any credence to what your are saying repetitively so often that you effectively hijacked the real subject of this thread.


I actually hadn't read it until now. I was relying on the Flight Global Article.

Start reading from page 68 - it's pretty damning of the Pilots. https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2010/et-b10 ... 125.en.pdf

I'm not trying to hijack the thread - I'm responding to those who keep coming on here who keep insisting that Boeings terrible design is the only factor that contributed to the crash.

Why that is relevant to the discussion is that training factors need to be looked at - possibly before the grounding is lifted. It would be very unfortunate if these tragedies did not result in an examination of Worldwide training standards. That may take some time but if it isn't at least started before the grounding is lifted - it will probably never happen.

Just so everyone doesn't think i'm just bashing on ET - please look at AF447 and Colgan 3407 - two other accidents where human factors were a large part of the tragedies.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 2:44 am

Revelation wrote:
many321 wrote:
Sure Boeing...whatever you say....

After yesterday's theatrics in Congress by trashing the four dead pilots, I'll wait for the other watchdog organizations to give us the go ahead.

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130434

I think the new buzz word is "collaboration" -- how can one argue against collaboration and in favor of broken down uncoordinated decisions?

AvWeek ( https://aviationweek.com/commercial-avi ... rs-meeting ) says:

    FAA leadership sees the upcoming meeting of regulators discussing the Boeing 737 MAX return-to-flight approval process as a key step towards restoring global aviation safety-related collaboration that broke down in the wake of uncoordinated decisions to ground the aircraft, the agency’s top official said May 15.

    The May 23 meeting in Dallas, called by FAA and first reported by Aviation Week, is slated to include regulators from many of the 57 countries that banned MAX operations following the Mar. 10 Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 (ET302) accident. FAA’s aim: present details behind its analysis of proposed changes that Boeing is making to the MAX’s flight control computer software and training, and answer questions.

    “The goal is to offer all of these countries who have grounded or prohibited [737 MAX operations] the benefit of all the information and all the thinking,” FAA Acting Administrator Dan Elwell told the U.S. House of Representatives aviation subcommittee May 15. “My hope is that they have the confidence in our work and our analysis to make their ungrounding decisions—if that’s where the discussions [goes]—as close to our decision as possible. I think that it’s important for the world to have some level of confidence.”

How benevolent of FAA to share all the information and all the thinking so that all those uncoordinated decisions get coordinated and the world can have some level of confidence once again.

And let's all obey the ground rules of only discussing proposed changes that Boeing is making to the MAX’s flight control computer software and training.

Let's all ignore the elephant in the corner of the room that wants to talk about why such changes were needed in the first place.

As I've written before, this "blinders on, all speed ahead" strategy Boeing (and its tightly coupled appendage, FAA) is following does get to the goal line the fastest, but is risky as hell.

Yet, so far, it seems no one is willing to get in front of the steamroller and yell "stop!"...

Yes, there is a new sense of collaboration.

EASA, TCCA, JCAB, CAAC and other airworthiness authorities will have met at least three times since the second crash in London (the 3rd meeting 24 hours before the 23 May), with a 4th scheduled immediately after, suggesting unless Boeing and the FAA tick all the boxes, there won't be a definitive decision or timetable announced on the 23rd.
Last edited by smartplane on Fri May 17, 2019 2:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Buffalomatt1027
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 2:48 am

smartplane wrote:
Revelation wrote:
many321 wrote:
Sure Boeing...whatever you say....

After yesterday's theatrics in Congress by trashing the four dead pilots, I'll wait for the other watchdog organizations to give us the go ahead.

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130434

I think the new buzz word is "collaboration" -- how can one argue against collaboration and in favor of broken down uncoordinated decisions?

AvWeek ( https://aviationweek.com/commercial-avi ... rs-meeting ) says:

    FAA leadership sees the upcoming meeting of regulators discussing the Boeing 737 MAX return-to-flight approval process as a key step towards restoring global aviation safety-related collaboration that broke down in the wake of uncoordinated decisions to ground the aircraft, the agency’s top official said May 15.

    The May 23 meeting in Dallas, called by FAA and first reported by Aviation Week, is slated to include regulators from many of the 57 countries that banned MAX operations following the Mar. 10 Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 (ET302) accident. FAA’s aim: present details behind its analysis of proposed changes that Boeing is making to the MAX’s flight control computer software and training, and answer questions.

    “The goal is to offer all of these countries who have grounded or prohibited [737 MAX operations] the benefit of all the information and all the thinking,” FAA Acting Administrator Dan Elwell told the U.S. House of Representatives aviation subcommittee May 15. “My hope is that they have the confidence in our work and our analysis to make their ungrounding decisions—if that’s where the discussions [goes]—as close to our decision as possible. I think that it’s important for the world to have some level of confidence.”

How benevolent of FAA to share all the information and all the thinking so that all those uncoordinated decisions get coordinated and the world can have some level of confidence once again.

And let's all obey the ground rules of only discussing proposed changes that Boeing is making to the MAX’s flight control computer software and training.

Let's all ignore the elephant in the corner of the room that wants to talk about why such changes were needed in the first place.

As I've written before, this "blinders on, all speed ahead" strategy Boeing (and its tightly coupled appendage, FAA) is following does get to the goal line the fastest, but is risky as hell.

Yet, so far, it seems no one is willing to get in front of the steamroller and yell "stop!"...

As EASA, TCCA, JCAB, CAAC and other airworthiness authorities will have met at least three times since the second crash in London, and neither the FAA or Boeing have been invited, hopefully both will be ready, willing and able to address all concerns. They've had enough time to prepare.


If the MAX doesnt pass ..... the entire BOEING company might go in the toilet or will be on REALLY tough times.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 2:49 am

Jamie514 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:

Quite frankly relying on one single event a decade ago is not a strong argument at all. It doesn't offer any explanation to their decade of otherwise safe ops in between or why manufacturer best practices in making planes so "safe and reliable" were not adhered to this time.


Modern airliners are so reliable this may have been the first time one of there crews was faced with a difficult situation in the decade, but it surely points a finger at the training culture (or lack thereof) at ET.



Southwest keeps having pesky problems sliding into the EMAS, right off the airfield, or hitting down so hard at LGA that the plane is written off. Do you also want to see them improve their safety culture or lack thereof?


Sure - I highly suspect a lot of the 737 landing incidents are due to an over reliance on Autothrottle and lack of hand flying skills.

Although I don't know if it was Southwest - there was a report from a US Captain on here before that had to teach a new FO about the trim wheel and fold out handle..
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 3:17 am

smartplane wrote:
Yes, there is a new sense of collaboration.

EASA, TCCA, JCAB, CAAC and other airworthiness authorities will have met at least three times since the second crash in London (the 3rd meeting 24 hours before the 23 May), with a 4th scheduled immediately after, suggesting unless Boeing and the FAA tick all the boxes, there won't be a definitive decision or timetable announced on the 23rd.

Your focus on these meetings is laudable.

It's interesting how even the much lauded Seattle Times isn't making mention of these meetings.

As a point of reference their latest piece:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... -approval/

only talks about the upcoming Dallas meeting and doesn't mention the London meetings.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 3:38 am

morrisond wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
It's quite scary and damning that ET didn't seem to learn anything from Flight 409 - it sounds like it's Pilots faced a lot of the same issues as ET -302
Quite fankly this lends a lot of credence to what a lot of us are saying what happened on ET-302

Have you ever read all the pages of the final ET409 report ? Your so strong claims serve your emotion without factual analysis. In fact you presented absolutely no analysis at all. Just your biased emotion. This do not lend any credence to what your are saying repetitively so often that you effectively hijacked the real subject of this thread.


I actually hadn't read it until now. I was relying on the Flight Global Article.

Start reading from page 68 - it's pretty damning of the Pilots. https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2010/et-b10 ... 125.en.pdf

I'm not trying to hijack the thread - I'm responding to those who keep coming on here who keep insisting that Boeings terrible design is the only factor that contributed to the crash.

Why that is relevant to the discussion is that training factors need to be looked at - possibly before the grounding is lifted. It would be very unfortunate if these tragedies did not result in an examination of Worldwide training standards. That may take some time but if it isn't at least started before the grounding is lifted - it will probably never happen.

Just so everyone doesn't think i'm just bashing on ET - please look at AF447 and Colgan 3407 - two other accidents where human factors were a large part of the tragedies.


With all problem analysis, we start with the root cause. Boeing's terrible design was the start of the problem. Recent articles reveal that the terrible design was not incompetence but intentional. Why would they use the massive power of the horizontal stabiliser to add a few pounds of force to the control column? It's a ridiculous idea right from the outset. It was only done for expediency so that profits would not be compromised. It was done with full knowledge that it sacrificed safety.

Congress Republicans just did their best to divert people's attention from the root cause by focussing on the pilots who had this happen on their flight.
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 3:59 am

Jamie514 wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
How many other planes has ET lost in the last 15 years due to mishandling?


Well, there was this one 9 years ago in 2010.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian ... Flight_409

The official cause in the report:

"The final investigation report released by the Lebanese Ministry of Public Works and Transport, presented on 17 January 2012, stated that "the probable causes of the accident were the flight crew's mismanagement of the aircraft's speed, altitude, headings and attitude through inconsistent flight control inputs resulting in a loss of control and their failure to abide by CRM [Crew Resource Management] principles of mutual support and calling deviations"."

ET disputed the results attributing the crash to "shoot-down, sabotage, or lightning strike" but no evidence was found to support ET's contention.


Exactly. One crash, almost a decade ago. That sort of accident rate undermines the whole "training is obviously lacking" argument.


Just two comments:

1) American Airlines operates about 12 times as many 737 NG's as Ethiopian (304 vs 26) but none of them has been involved in a loss of control crash. Likewise for Delta (203 737 NG's) and United (329 737 NG's), there have been no loss of control accidents.

ET's 737 NG accident rate has not been exceptional.

2) Maybe ET 409 marked a change in ET's training and staffing policies but the mis-handling of a stick shaker event at liftoff on ET 302 does make one wonder.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Agrajag
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 4:49 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/id ... ly_crashes.

An new in depth piece from the BBC.
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
Slartibartfast had a point
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 4:51 am

OldAeroGuy wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:

Well, there was this one 9 years ago in 2010.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian ... Flight_409

The official cause in the report:

"The final investigation report released by the Lebanese Ministry of Public Works and Transport, presented on 17 January 2012, stated that "the probable causes of the accident were the flight crew's mismanagement of the aircraft's speed, altitude, headings and attitude through inconsistent flight control inputs resulting in a loss of control and their failure to abide by CRM [Crew Resource Management] principles of mutual support and calling deviations"."

ET disputed the results attributing the crash to "shoot-down, sabotage, or lightning strike" but no evidence was found to support ET's contention.


Exactly. One crash, almost a decade ago. That sort of accident rate undermines the whole "training is obviously lacking" argument.


Just two comments:

1) American Airlines operates about 12 times as many 737 NG's as Ethiopian (304 vs 26) but none of them has been involved in a loss of control crash. Likewise for Delta (203 737 NG's) and United (329 737 NG's), there have been no loss of control accidents.

ET's 737 NG accident rate has not been exceptional.

2) Maybe ET 409 marked a change in ET's training and staffing policies but the mis-handling of a stick shaker event at liftoff on ET 302 does make one wonder.
See, that's the thing. The EAD mentions that stick shaker can be a symptom of pending MCAS failure as well. The EAD is woefully inadequate. Boeing knew that stick shaker on takeoff was due to AoA failure and that the best option to deal with it was to not raise flaps which would also ensure erroneous MCAS activation did not occur. In fact Boeing probably knew all this before they even shipped the plane.
 
blrsea
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 5:24 am

What stops FAA from unilaterally ungrounding 737s in US if its confident of Boeing fixes? It can always take up the issue with other regulators once it has made its decision.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 5:37 am

:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 5:43 am

RickNRoll wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:

Exactly. One crash, almost a decade ago. That sort of accident rate undermines the whole "training is obviously lacking" argument.


Just two comments:

1) American Airlines operates about 12 times as many 737 NG's as Ethiopian (304 vs 26) but none of them has been involved in a loss of control crash. Likewise for Delta (203 737 NG's) and United (329 737 NG's), there have been no loss of control accidents.

ET's 737 NG accident rate has not been exceptional.

2) Maybe ET 409 marked a change in ET's training and staffing policies but the mis-handling of a stick shaker event at liftoff on ET 302 does make one wonder.
See, that's the thing. The EAD mentions that stick shaker can be a symptom of pending MCAS failure as well. The EAD is woefully inadequate. Boeing knew that stick shaker on takeoff was due to AoA failure and that the best option to deal with it was to not raise flaps which would also ensure erroneous MCAS activation did not occur. In fact Boeing probably knew all this before they even shipped the plane.


Except the AoA failure can happen later in the flight as well. You want the NNC to cover all instances, not only when it happens while flaps are down right after takeoff. If it happens at cruising speed you don't want flaps deployment as part of the recovery procedure.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 5:45 am

OldAeroGuy wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:

Well, there was this one 9 years ago in 2010.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian ... Flight_409

The official cause in the report:

"The final investigation report released by the Lebanese Ministry of Public Works and Transport, presented on 17 January 2012, stated that "the probable causes of the accident were the flight crew's mismanagement of the aircraft's speed, altitude, headings and attitude through inconsistent flight control inputs resulting in a loss of control and their failure to abide by CRM [Crew Resource Management] principles of mutual support and calling deviations"."

ET disputed the results attributing the crash to "shoot-down, sabotage, or lightning strike" but no evidence was found to support ET's contention.


Exactly. One crash, almost a decade ago. That sort of accident rate undermines the whole "training is obviously lacking" argument.


Just two comments:

1) American Airlines operates about 12 times as many 737 NG's as Ethiopian (304 vs 26) but none of them has been involved in a loss of control crash. Likewise for Delta (203 737 NG's) and United (329 737 NG's), there have been no loss of control accidents.

ET's 737 NG accident rate has not been exceptional.

2) Maybe ET 409 marked a change in ET's training and staffing policies but the mis-handling of a stick shaker event at liftoff on ET 302 does make one wonder.

One crash in a decade is not really a poor safety record. You seem to not understand that even if pilot error was the cause of the crash, the pilot error would not have happened had the AOA indicator not failed and triggered the MCAS. Just one sensor failing placed the aircraft in a catastrophic failure situation. Even if the pilots had been able to recover, it is totally unacceptable that MCAS has such little redundancy in the first place.
 
zakelwe
Posts: 33
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 5:47 am

Agrajag wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/boeing_two_deadly_crashes.

An new in depth piece from the BBC.


I thought that was an excellent read and , pardon the pun, pitched just right at the technical for the general layman who is not interested as much as people on here. Not too technical but gave a lot of the background and quite comprehensive.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 5:59 am

Agrajag wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/boeing_two_deadly_crashes.

An new in depth piece from the BBC.


Frustratingly another media piece that misrepresents what we know from the preliminary report in regards to what the airplane was doing. It falsely claims that pilots followed the latest runaway stab procedure. It repeats the misrepresentation that the new engine position physically lifted the nose. It also claims that the "unusually light" controls are "rather different" to the NG. That's a claim contradicted by the only report I've read on this forum.

There's probably more problems, but I stopped there. It's clear the article does not have in-depth knowledge of the preliminary report, and that's a critical reporting error.

speedbird52 wrote:
One crash in a decade is not really a poor safety record. You seem to not understand that even if pilot error was the cause of the crash, the pilot error would not have happened had the AOA indicator not failed and triggered the MCAS. Just one sensor failing placed the aircraft in a catastrophic failure situation. Even if the pilots had been able to recover, it is totally unacceptable that MCAS has such little redundancy in the first place.


Statistically it's a poor safety record as OldAeroGuy stated.

But as I don't believe safety is based solely on statistics, I look at the cause. Since ET pilots were the cause and the ET government has attempted to claim otherwise, it still means a poor safety record, stats or not.
Last edited by MSPNWA on Fri May 17, 2019 6:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 6:14 am

hilram wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/how-much-was-pilot-error-a-factor-in-the-boeing-737-max-crashes/

The lead Republican on the US House Committee, relying on a study essentially financed by Boeing stockholders, announces just about all the problems were with poor pilots, as opposed to good good American pilots. (snarky note - is this going to become Republican orthodoxy?) American airline pilots (and other IIRC) have strongly disagreed that the Ethiopian pilots were/are mostly responsible.

I would further say that if Boeing wants to sell planes to the rest of the world they need to suck it up and accept that they are 60-80% responsible. This also means settlement of suits and payments to airlines. Likely $5 billion if they are lucky.


WOW!
With the route Boeing is going now, they squander the confidence they had left from the public.
What they are basically saying between the lines - through their puppet politicians with pockets lined with campaing funding - is that "inferior" countries should stop buying our planes.

Boeing, if you're reading this: Is this really something you want to communicate?
It is time you ask yourselves the question you should have asked yourselves when you were balancing Zero Sim Time Requirement vs. Single Sensor Input to MCAS: What will cost more in the long run?


Would it not be more prudent at this time to hold your hands up and at least admit an error of judgement with regards to the MCAS original design and implementation?

BTW: How could the Lion Air pilots "recognize" something that was not disclosed to them? Is clairvoyance now a mandatory pilot skill?


First of all, no company is going to do the kind of "mea culpa" that some on here seem to want. If they did, it removes all leverage for out of court settlements. You have to understand that most juries will not have a single person that understands the technical stuff related to MCAS. What they will understand is a statement by Boeing that says "we screwed up." Therefore, they would lose every single trial and therefore no plaintiff will have any reason to settle because there will be no chance for them to lose.

As for the Lion Air pilots, after the 10th or 15th time they stopped MCAS with the trim switch and the trim moved nose down yet again they should have recognized a runaway stabilizer and run the NNC. I know somebody is going to chime in and say that runaway stabilizer was defined as continuous movement and MCAS was not continuous. I'll change my opinion if the full CVR transcript shows a discussion about possible runaway stabilizer and the crew concluding that it wasn't since the movement wasn't continuous. I highly doubt that happened which is why I think there may be a training issue related to runaway stabilizer in general, especially since it is a memory item.

They could also have recognized that every time they hit the thumb switch they got the trim back under control so at least keep doing that. It doesn't take any physical exertion to do it and it should be instinctive to trim out the control forces. If your car's cruise control keeps accelerating you to 150 mph and hitting the brake slows you down, wouldn't almost all people keep hitting the brake? Does it matter if you know that the car has a new feature installed that is going berserk and causing it?

As far as the politics, while Republicans tend to be more pro-business, Democrats are very pro-union. They may put on a show in meaningless hearings but you can bet they want the 737 MAX back in the air due to the number of union jobs that are supported building it.
 
Jamie514
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 6:18 am

OldAeroGuy wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:

Well, there was this one 9 years ago in 2010.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian ... Flight_409

The official cause in the report:

"The final investigation report released by the Lebanese Ministry of Public Works and Transport, presented on 17 January 2012, stated that "the probable causes of the accident were the flight crew's mismanagement of the aircraft's speed, altitude, headings and attitude through inconsistent flight control inputs resulting in a loss of control and their failure to abide by CRM [Crew Resource Management] principles of mutual support and calling deviations"."

ET disputed the results attributing the crash to "shoot-down, sabotage, or lightning strike" but no evidence was found to support ET's contention.


Exactly. One crash, almost a decade ago. That sort of accident rate undermines the whole "training is obviously lacking" argument.


Just two comments:

1) American Airlines operates about 12 times as many 737 NG's as Ethiopian (304 vs 26) but none of them has been involved in a loss of control crash. Likewise for Delta (203 737 NG's) and United (329 737 NG's), there have been no loss of control accidents.

ET's 737 NG accident rate has not been exceptional.

2) Maybe ET 409 marked a change in ET's training and staffing policies but the mis-handling of a stick shaker event at liftoff on ET 302 does make one wonder.


Fine then. When examining the airlines safety record it would be smart to not cherry pick an analysis to a specific type like just the NG.

ET also havent crashed any of their other types since 2010.

If you can find another clear case of pilot error on ET after the late 70's or early 80's, let us know. *to be fair to USA, lets not count landing errors like ovverruns cuz the likes of AA and WN suck at those.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 6:31 am

hivue wrote:
14ccKemiskt wrote:
Since Boeing themselves said that a fix was in the works already in november, it apparently took them at least six (!) months to implement. One wonders why it took so long time.


Because they learned their lesson after their MCAS 1 slap-dash patch and decided to take time to do it right for MCAS 2?


Nah!

No real pressure on Boeings side.
Insufficient training very slightly augmented by a minimally problematic design decision.
Should have been ready for the next regularly scheduled software maintenance patch.
Murphy is an optimist
 
zippy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 6:35 am

morrisond wrote:
I'm not trying to hijack the thread - I'm responding to those who keep coming on here who keep insisting that Boeings terrible design is the only factor that contributed to the crash.


It's not the only factor but it's the primary factor. Experienced pilots who've been briefed on MCAS have been run through at least two simulator sessions (one for each flight I believe). The reaction has consistently been "that was more difficult to handle that expected." In fact the latest run, simulating the Ethiopian crash, saw pilots unable to use the trim wheels. At 10,000 ft AGL they lost about 8,000 ft trying to regain control. It is a terrible design.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 6:47 am

zippy wrote:
morrisond wrote:
I'm not trying to hijack the thread - I'm responding to those who keep coming on here who keep insisting that Boeings terrible design is the only factor that contributed to the crash.


It's not the only factor but it's the primary factor. Experienced pilots who've been briefed on MCAS have been run through at least two simulator sessions (one for each flight I believe). The reaction has consistently been "that was more difficult to handle that expected." In fact the latest run, simulating the Ethiopian crash, saw pilots unable to use the trim wheels. At 10,000 ft AGL they lost about 8,000 ft trying to regain control. It is a terrible design.

I don't know about the Lion Air simulation but the one that aviation week for the ET crash was stupid. They simulated AFTER the electric trim was cut off but while in the severe our of trim condition. It is not surprising that they had difficulties.

What they should have simulated is starting from the beginning of the failure and running the correct checklists properly to see if doing things as documented would have led to recovery and how difficult it was. ET's worst problem to deal with started when they cut off the electric trim too soon.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 7:04 am

planecane wrote:
What they should have simulated is starting from the beginning of the failure and running the correct checklists properly to see if doing things as documented would have led to recovery and how difficult it was. ET's worst problem to deal with started when they cut off the electric trim too soon.


The runaway stabilizer checklist actually only mentions using main electric trim as an indented section in the "Autopilot (if-engaged) ,,,,,,,,, Disengage" section (2). In other words, looking at that checklist in the cold light of day with all the bells and whistles going off, you would skip straight to step 3 (Autothrottle) if the autopilot was not engaged.

No idea how the memory item is taught, but the checklist itself is pretty ambiguous to say the least.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 7:12 am

morrisond wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
morrisond wrote:

On Lionair it's debatable. It kind of looked like Runaway Stabilizer so it would have made sense to turn off power to the system - but yes there was no particular procedure for the symptoms they were facing. However you can't write procedures for every potential failure - at some point you have to assume a pilot would recognize a system (Electric Trim) is faulty and turn it off and fly manually. They properly counteracted MCAS 22 times. I have used the following example many times and no one has a good answer.

"If there was a fault in the Autopilot System and it tried to turn you right (or put you in a dive) 22 times - would you keep it engaged or turn it off?"

On ET at the time of the flight they should have fully known all about MCAS and the conditions that caused it and have been highly proficient on the procedure to counter it if the Airline had done the training they said they did (I think all they said was that they supplied the procedure) - however there are some reports they never even did that.


Stuck in the worn grove again eh. Thought you'd turned a leaf for a while. Missed your usual first line of Boeing should have done better but...

Please dont call the dead pilots out for not having the sense.
Please dont call the Ethiopian CEO a liar without any evidence. Especially since you know full well his statement that the pilots had been given the information etc. and you know that the report you are referring to is contrary to the Preliminary Report and thereby discredited at least in part.

Good of you to recognise "many" repeats. The analogy doesn't hold water since Pilots would know Autopilot exists as a system and was capable of the deed. Pilots had no knowledge that MCAS existed never mind that it would keep pushing the nose down even when counteracted.

I think one of the plaintiffs legals put it succinctly:
“The FAA is wrong to push the narrative that the pilots were responsible for the two disasters because the Boeing MCAS created the hazardous condition that caused the two crashes and the system actually fought against the efforts of the pilots who were trying to save the airplanes. That is why it is so awful to hear Mr. Elwell blame the pilots for the accidents. Modern aviation safety systems are designed to prevent pilot error from causing the loss of an airplane. The MCAS does the opposite – it creates the hazardous condition and induces the pilot error."

https://www.eturbonews.com/252204/shock ... 737-8-max/

Ray


Hi Ray - See the Flightglobal report on ET 409 I linked too above. It seems like ET and the ET Civil aviation Authority being in cahoots has a history.


Seems like the GOP and Boeing being in cahoots has a history.
 
14ccKemiskt
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 7:32 am

In a statement Thursday, APA President Captain Daniel Carey cited the November meeting and said

“Dennis Muilenberg and his engineers need to take full responsibility for the 346 deaths,” Carey added. “Boeing needs to stop dodging responsibility and stop blaming dead pilots for its mistakes.”


Pilots are furious at Boeing. I fully agree with Mr. Carey.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... -approval/
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 7:44 am

14ccKemiskt wrote:
In a statement Thursday, APA President Captain Daniel Carey cited the November meeting and said

“Dennis Muilenberg and his engineers need to take full responsibility for the 346 deaths,” Carey added. “Boeing needs to stop dodging responsibility and stop blaming dead pilots for its mistakes.”


Pilots are furious at Boeing. I fully agree with Mr. Carey.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... -approval/


So if the FAA does the job responsible and up to normal procedure it will take at least another 90 days:

According to an audio recording of the meeting that was provided by the Allied Pilots Association (APA), the airline’s pilot union, when the American pilots pressed Sinnett for faster action, he laid out a six-week timeline to develop the fix, followed by a 90-day period for the FAA to review and mandate its implementation.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 8:08 am

morrisond wrote:
I'm not trying to hijack the thread - I'm responding to those who keep coming on here who keep insisting that Boeings terrible design is the only factor that contributed to the crash.
[...]
Just so everyone doesn't think i'm just bashing on ET - please look at AF447 and Colgan 3407 - two other accidents where human factors were a large part of the tragedies.

Sure as hell that you constantly hijack this tread and contradict yourself: while you agree on a early message that "Boeing part being 60-80% responsible", the wording of your last sentence very explicitly bash ET302 "human factors" for "a large part" of the accident. A lot of the actually punished officials information prove you wrong on this, including the last FAA news. All those information contently support the fact that the broken safety management that allowed to operate the hidden MCAS ill designed software on commercial flights without D+ level training requirement is by far the largest contributor to the 737-8/9 MAX tragedy. We all known that you disagree, no need to constantly repeat yourself so many times, this will no change to worldwide situation on the subject.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 8:32 am

morrisond wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
morrisond wrote:

On Lionair it's debatable. It kind of looked like Runaway Stabilizer so it would have made sense to turn off power to the system - but yes there was no particular procedure for the symptoms they were facing. However you can't write procedures for every potential failure - at some point you have to assume a pilot would recognize a system (Electric Trim) is faulty and turn it off and fly manually. They properly counteracted MCAS 22 times. I have used the following example many times and no one has a good answer.

"If there was a fault in the Autopilot System and it tried to turn you right (or put you in a dive) 22 times - would you keep it engaged or turn it off?"

On ET at the time of the flight they should have fully known all about MCAS and the conditions that caused it and have been highly proficient on the procedure to counter it if the Airline had done the training they said they did (I think all they said was that they supplied the procedure) - however there are some reports they never even did that.


Stuck in the worn grove again eh. Thought you'd turned a leaf for a while. Missed your usual first line of Boeing should have done better but...

Please dont call the dead pilots out for not having the sense.
Please dont call the Ethiopian CEO a liar without any evidence. Especially since you know full well his statement that the pilots had been given the information etc. and you know that the report you are referring to is contrary to the Preliminary Report and thereby discredited at least in part.

Good of you to recognise "many" repeats. The analogy doesn't hold water since Pilots would know Autopilot exists as a system and was capable of the deed. Pilots had no knowledge that MCAS existed never mind that it would keep pushing the nose down even when counteracted.

I think one of the plaintiffs legals put it succinctly:
“The FAA is wrong to push the narrative that the pilots were responsible for the two disasters because the Boeing MCAS created the hazardous condition that caused the two crashes and the system actually fought against the efforts of the pilots who were trying to save the airplanes. That is why it is so awful to hear Mr. Elwell blame the pilots for the accidents. Modern aviation safety systems are designed to prevent pilot error from causing the loss of an airplane. The MCAS does the opposite – it creates the hazardous condition and induces the pilot error."

https://www.eturbonews.com/252204/shock ... 737-8-max/

Ray


Hi Ray - See the Flightglobal report on ET 409 I linked too above. It seems like ET and the ET Civil aviation Authority being in cahoots has a history.


And if so? The Ethiopian CEO is a liar now? The Ethiopians had the right to challenge the investigation report and did so. Having re-read the report I can both see why they did challenge and why the investigators reached the conclusions they did without full recovery of the crash debris.

It would seem from these threads that Ethiopian is now being trailed as an excellent training organisation, perhaps a leader in the region, and were ahead of most in procuring a MAX simulator. Perhaps they took the findings of the ET409 report to heart and implemented them with some gusto?

The NTSB are formally part of the ET302 Investigation team. They similarly have the right to challenge the findings and reports. I would expect that if NTSB were not happy with the Preliminary Report they would say so formally and we would, at least, have had informal briefings to look at. No such formal or informal challenge has become known (Boeing were given the opportunity to review the draft as well). I'm sure NTSB will flag any shenanigans going on as the investigation progresses to a final report. Until then, the Preliminary Report should stand.

None of this should absolve Boeing/FAA of any culpability or deflect from any culpability of Boeing/FAA (in cahoots?).

Ray
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 8:36 am

From that Seattle Times article. (Not a copyright issue quoting this, as they are simply quoting Carey).

In a statement Thursday, APA President Captain Daniel Carey cited the November meeting and said, “It’s six months later and who knows how long it will take to implement the new fix, and if it’s even sufficient.”

“Dennis Muilenberg and his engineers need to take full responsibility for the 346 deaths,” Carey added. “Boeing needs to stop dodging responsibility and stop blaming dead pilots for its mistakes.”


Although as I have stated before, we don't know what direction the engineers were under from above.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 9:33 am

PixelPilot wrote:
Boeing is ready to get it up in the air.
https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130434


Fortunately, it's not up to Boeing to decide if the fix is to be certified or not. FAA, EASA, CAAC and others must do that and they will scrutinize it thoroughly to ensure no more deaths are caused by 737 MAX flawed systems.
The queen of the skies is dead.
 
LH452
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 10:37 am

In the updated software, what is the max travel of the stab?
 
zippy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 10:38 am

planecane wrote:
I don't know about the Lion Air simulation but the one that aviation week for the ET crash was stupid. They simulated AFTER the electric trim was cut off but while in the severe our of trim condition. It is not surprising that they had difficulties.


Seattle Times had this to say:

The U.S. crew tested this by setting up a 737-Next Generation simulator at 10,000 ft., 250 kt. and 2 deg. nose up stabilizer trim. This is slightly higher altitude but otherwise similar to what the ET302 crew faced as it de-powered the trim motors 3 min. into the 6 min. flight, and about 1 min. after the first uncommanded MCAS input. Leading up to the scenario, the Ethiopian crew used column-mounted manual electric trim to counter some of the MCAS inputs, but did not get the aircraft back to level trim, as the 737 manual instructs before de-powering the stabilizer trim motor. The crew also did not reduce their unusually high speed.


Which seems to indicate that the plane wasn't wildly mistrimmed when the simulation started. If the crew had problems with the trim wheels at 250 kts...
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 11:08 am

Jamie514 wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:

Exactly. One crash, almost a decade ago. That sort of accident rate undermines the whole "training is obviously lacking" argument.


Just two comments:

1) American Airlines operates about 12 times as many 737 NG's as Ethiopian (304 vs 26) but none of them has been involved in a loss of control crash. Likewise for Delta (203 737 NG's) and United (329 737 NG's), there have been no loss of control accidents.

ET's 737 NG accident rate has not been exceptional.

2) Maybe ET 409 marked a change in ET's training and staffing policies but the mis-handling of a stick shaker event at liftoff on ET 302 does make one wonder.


Fine then. When examining the airlines safety record it would be smart to not cherry pick an analysis to a specific type like just the NG.

ET also havent crashed any of their other types since 2010.

If you can find another clear case of pilot error on ET after the late 70's or early 80's, let us know. *to be fair to USA, lets not count landing errors like ovverruns cuz the likes of AA and WN suck at those.


Did you even read the report on ET 409? Remember that the ET 302 Pilot went through the ET system for Initial 737 Type rating not that long after ET409.

From the ET409 report you will also see that ET's policy at the time was to engage AP after 400'AGL(Just like ET302 tried to do but was expressly forbidden by the Unreliable airspeed checklist they should have been following). This would also suggest a heavy reliance on Autothrottle even in Manual flight. - (ET409 left TOGA engaged the whole time as well).

I have no doubt ET training is excellent at teaching efficient normal operation of the 737 and when is the time to properly push the buttons.

However there is a lot of doubt that the Pilots had the necessary jet hand flying skills they should have had to save both flights. That is the downside of not practising manual flight in modern airliners and simulators without all the nannies - you just don't have the experience or comfort level to be confident of taking over when things go wrong.

I know that my suggestion that we should legislate multiple additional hours of sim time yearly to practise non-normal procedures will never come to pass - but I hope worldwide airlines spend a lot more time on Manual flight during recurrent training - that would seem to have helped a lot on most of the loss of life incidents in the past 10 years.
Last edited by morrisond on Fri May 17, 2019 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 11:20 am

"Should have". That's quite a claim. The correct statement should be "Could have".


“Dennis Muilenberg and his engineers need to take full responsibility for the 346 deaths Boeing needs to stop dodging responsibility and stop blaming dead pilots for its mistakes.” Dan Carey
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 11:26 am

zippy wrote:
planecane wrote:
I don't know about the Lion Air simulation but the one that aviation week for the ET crash was stupid. They simulated AFTER the electric trim was cut off but while in the severe our of trim condition. It is not surprising that they had difficulties.


Seattle Times had this to say:

The U.S. crew tested this by setting up a 737-Next Generation simulator at 10,000 ft., 250 kt. and 2 deg. nose up stabilizer trim. This is slightly higher altitude but otherwise similar to what the ET302 crew faced as it de-powered the trim motors 3 min. into the 6 min. flight, and about 1 min. after the first uncommanded MCAS input. Leading up to the scenario, the Ethiopian crew used column-mounted manual electric trim to counter some of the MCAS inputs, but did not get the aircraft back to level trim, as the 737 manual instructs before de-powering the stabilizer trim motor. The crew also did not reduce their unusually high speed.


Which seems to indicate that the plane wasn't wildly mistrimmed when the simulation started. If the crew had problems with the trim wheels at 250 kts...


2 degrees Nose up is pretty out of trim for that phase of flight. Multiple 737 pilots on here have stated that in normal flight operations the trim wheel is easy to use.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 11:37 am

Meanwhile, Reuters: Airlines face scramble to restore 737 MAX flights once regulators approve fix says:

Once global regulators clear Boeing Co’s 737 MAX to fly again after deadly crashes, airlines which have put their fleets into mechanical hibernation since March will scramble to begin the biggest ungrounding effort in history.

Quickly reintegrating Boeing’s 737 MAX, a fast-selling model because of its fuel efficiency, longer range, and passenger capacity, is crucial for optimizing airlines’ routes and improving margins after having to cancel thousands of flights.

Seems to have a much more soothing tone than the recently posted ST and BBC links, perhaps addressing itself more to the investment community.

International regulators are meeting on May 23 to review Boeing software and training plans, though doubts remain over how quickly foreign authorities will clear new flights.

Ahh, those pesky doubts.

In the United States, following regulatory approval of a Boeing software fix and new training, airlines will have to run through an FAA-approved checklist, industry officials say.

I guess we'll see if they can follow checklists or not.

Southwest Airlines Co, the world’s largest MAX operator, has agreed a 30-day window with its 10,000 pilots to implement new MAX training, said Mike Trevino, spokesman for Southwest Airlines Pilots Association.

If it’s computer-based training, that won’t be difficult to deploy. The pilots can do it at home,” he said.

A draft report by an FAA-appointed board of pilots, engineers and other experts concluded that pilots only need additional computer-based training, rather than simulator time, though other regulators and some pilot groups have argued for more.

Seems the pilots are largely OK with a session on the couch with an iPad rather than an inconvenient and perhaps stressful trip to a simulator.

See, that's this mess sorted....
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FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 12:01 pm

I still do not understand why there is a discussion about training and pilot quality and possible errors in this thread.

The MAX was not grounded because of the pilots. It was grounded because the MAX has serious design flaws, that increased the risk of possible crashes significantly over the acceptable threshold. Why the aircrafts crashed at the end should be discussed within the respective threads.

It is sad that it needed the crashes in the first place for actions taken by the authorities. But it showed that engineering and certification is not on the level it should be. We were lucky with the 787 that the fires did not lead to casualties and the aircraft was grounded before more serious accidents happened. Here with the MAX it unfortunately needed crashes to show the lack of engineering and certification qualities to ground the aircraft and prevent further deaths.

This has nothing to do with the crashes, they should be discussed independent of the grounding, because even if the two flights (ET and Lion Air) did not crash an immediate grounding after the incidents would have been the right call, because the frequency of erroneous MCAS activation and the potential risk it poses are just too high to keep the aircraft in the air.
 
Jamie514
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 12:13 pm

morrisond wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:

Just two comments:

1) American Airlines operates about 12 times as many 737 NG's as Ethiopian (304 vs 26) but none of them has been involved in a loss of control crash. Likewise for Delta (203 737 NG's) and United (329 737 NG's), there have been no loss of control accidents.

ET's 737 NG accident rate has not been exceptional.

2) Maybe ET 409 marked a change in ET's training and staffing policies but the mis-handling of a stick shaker event at liftoff on ET 302 does make one wonder.


Fine then. When examining the airlines safety record it would be smart to not cherry pick an analysis to a specific type like just the NG.

ET also havent crashed any of their other types since 2010.

If you can find another clear case of pilot error on ET after the late 70's or early 80's, let us know. *to be fair to USA, lets not count landing errors like ovverruns cuz the likes of AA and WN suck at those.


Did you even read the report on ET 409? Remember that the ET 302 Pilot went through the ET system for Initial 737 Type rating not that long after ET409.

From the ET409 report you will also see that ET's policy at the time was to engage AP after 400'AGL(Just like ET302 tried to do but was expressly forbidden by the Unreliable airspeed checklist they should have been following). This would also suggest a heavy reliance on Autothrottle even in Manual flight. - (ET409 left TOGA engaged the whole time as well).

I have no doubt ET training is excellent at teaching efficient normal operation of the 737 and when is the time to properly push the buttons.

However there is a lot of doubt that the Pilots had the necessary jet hand flying skills they should have had to save both flights. That is the downside of not practising manual flight in modern airliners and simulators without all the nannies - you just don't have the experience or comfort level to be confident of taking over when things go wrong.

I know that my suggestion that we should legislate multiple additional hours of sim time yearly to practise non-normal procedures will never come to pass - but I hope worldwide airlines spend a lot more time on Manual flight during recurrent training - that would seem to have helped a lot on most of the loss of life incidents in the past 10 years.


Another way of looking at it more rationally is that ET had one mishandling related crash in 30 years, so their record is very good. Southwest has had several landing incidents in the last decade alone. You never called out a training issue there.

l will not entertain agendas that grasp at flimsy straws and jump to illogical conclusions about ET's MAX crash which would never have happened the inexcusable bad practices had not prevailed at Boeing.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 12:13 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
I still do not understand why there is a discussion about training and pilot quality and possible errors in this thread.

The recent NYT article had this quote from Boeing VP Mike Sinnett that answers your question:

“The assumption is that the flight crews have been trained,” Mr. Sinnett said in the meeting. He added later: “Rightly or wrongly, that was the design criteria and that’s how the airplane was certified with the system and pilot working together.”
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FluidFlow
Posts: 698
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 12:31 pm

Revelation wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
I still do not understand why there is a discussion about training and pilot quality and possible errors in this thread.

The recent NYT article had this quote from Boeing VP Mike Sinnett that answers your question:

“The assumption is that the flight crews have been trained,” Mr. Sinnett said in the meeting. He added later: “Rightly or wrongly, that was the design criteria and that’s how the airplane was certified with the system and pilot working together.”


I know and I already said the biggest error made by Boeing was never to check if their assumption is right. They just went through with it. That failure lead to the bad design and to the crashes, but it would have been no problem if Boeing made their homework and actually designed the aircraft to the crew quality and not designed an aircraft and hoped (it was hope because they actually did not know) the training is good enough.

The grounding is therefore a result of bad research and engineering from Boeings side, while the crashes are a separate topic where the final reports will tell us what went wrong.

What will be interesting is, if MCAS was the only design in the MAX that was based on wrong assumptions or if there are more critical systems that require a training standard, that is just not there. It was the job of the FAA to determine this, together with Boeing, and they already failed once.

If Boeing's premise really is "the airplane was certified with the system and pilot working together" and the pilot side was wrongly assumed, then this aircraft should not be re-certified until one of the two aspect are brought to a level that guarantees an acceptable level of safety. Boeing can choose if they want to redesign the aircraft so you can fly it with lower training or mandate more training. I personally would prefer both but from a financial point, Boeing will fight for the minimum required to just get the aircraft certified again.
 
tropical
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:04 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 12:33 pm

Revelation wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
I still do not understand why there is a discussion about training and pilot quality and possible errors in this thread.

The recent NYT article had this quote from Boeing VP Mike Sinnett that answers your question:

“The assumption is that the flight crews have been trained,” Mr. Sinnett said in the meeting. He added later: “Rightly or wrongly, that was the design criteria and that’s how the airplane was certified with the system and pilot working together.”


Kind of hard to train for something pilots hadn't been told about and most of whom didn't even know existed in the first place. Certainly as far as the first crash went.

The bottom line is this: the lion's share of the blame for this sorry mess must always lie with Boeing, and by a long margin. That is blatantly undeniable and beyond any doubt. It might be perfectly true that inadequate pilot training contributed to a small degree to either or both crashes, and it is fine to discuss any such failings within reason. But the emphasis for the crashes should not be put on pilot error or inadequate training, because it was a contributing factor at best. It is Boeing's failings that facilitated this, end of. Yet there seems to be a concerted effort in this thread to concentrate unduly, and ocassionally openly assign full blame on, pilot or airline shortcomings.
 
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par13del
Posts: 10322
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 12:43 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
I still do not understand why there is a discussion about training and pilot quality and possible errors in this thread.

Humans are in the loop because when mechanical things break or go off the reservation as we all know will happen sometime or another, we have to rely
on trained humans to get us safely home.

One of the reasons why accident reports are heavily scrutinized is to ensure that we learn from them to either eliminate or greatly reduce the chance of them happening again or having the same effect.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 24286
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 12:49 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
If Boeing's premise really is "the airplane was certified with the system and pilot working together" and the pilot side was wrongly assumed, then this aircraft should not be re-certified until one of the two aspect are brought to a level that guarantees an acceptable level of safety. Boeing can choose if they want to redesign the aircraft so you can fly it with lower training or mandate more training.

Yet that's not how things work for any aircraft currently in service.

It's clear the A320 is much more automated than the 737 is, yet even it is "certified with the system and pilot working together" and Airbus does not take on the burden of determining if the pilots are trained to the point where they can perform all the procedures they need to perform when the automation fails or sensors deliver inaccurate information. They document the procedures, then they let the regulators certify the documents, and expect the national authorities to verify the pilots are trained to the level they need to be trained to for safe operation of the aircraft.

And as I've pointed out, Airbus too is pointing out issues with the training standards of various national entities all around the globe. The AvWeek article I linked to earlier shows they are willing to take a leadership role in demonstrating the desired standards for training, but are evidently not willing to accept the burden of certifying the level of training individual pilots achieve.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Amexair
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:16 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 12:57 pm

morrisond wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
It's quite scary and damning that ET didn't seem to learn anything from Flight 409 - it sounds like it's Pilots faced a lot of the same issues as ET -302
Quite fankly this lends a lot of credence to what a lot of us are saying what happened on ET-302

Have you ever read all the pages of the final ET409 report ? Your so strong claims serve your emotion without factual analysis. In fact you presented absolutely no analysis at all. Just your biased emotion. This do not lend any credence to what your are saying repetitively so often that you effectively hijacked the real subject of this thread.


I actually hadn't read it until now. I was relying on the Flight Global Article.

Start reading from page 68 - it's pretty damning of the Pilots. https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2010/et-b10 ... 125.en.pdf

I'm not trying to hijack the thread - I'm responding to those who keep coming on here who keep insisting that Boeings terrible design is the only factor that contributed to the crash.

Why that is relevant to the discussion is that training factors need to be looked at - possibly before the grounding is lifted. It would be very unfortunate if these tragedies did not result in an examination of Worldwide training standards. That may take some time but if it isn't at least started before the grounding is lifted - it will probably never happen.

Just so everyone doesn't think i'm just bashing on ET - please look at AF447 and Colgan 3407 - two other accidents where human factors were a large part of the tragedies.



Yes, but there is a time and place to have that discussion. If these crashes had occurred in any other circumstance, I would understand putting Worldwide training standards on the spotlight. Given what we know now, it is really hard to make the case for pilot error, even though there were some factors that played a role. Let's not try to deflect the real issue here because I noticed some people at the congressional hearing already doing that and I think its a shame.
 
morrisond
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 1:04 pm

tropical wrote:
Revelation wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
I still do not understand why there is a discussion about training and pilot quality and possible errors in this thread.

The recent NYT article had this quote from Boeing VP Mike Sinnett that answers your question:

“The assumption is that the flight crews have been trained,” Mr. Sinnett said in the meeting. He added later: “Rightly or wrongly, that was the design criteria and that’s how the airplane was certified with the system and pilot working together.”


Kind of hard to train for something pilots hadn't been told about and most of whom didn't even know existed in the first place. Certainly as far as the first crash went.

The bottom line is this: the lion's share of the blame for this sorry mess must always lie with Boeing, and by a long margin. That is blatantly undeniable and beyond any doubt. It might be perfectly true that inadequate pilot training contributed to a small degree to either or both crashes, and it is fine to discuss any such failings within reason. But the emphasis for the crashes should not be put on pilot error or inadequate training, because it was a contributing factor at best. It is Boeing's failings that facilitated this, end of. Yet there seems to be a concerted effort in this thread to concentrate unduly, and ocassionally openly assign full blame on, pilot or airline shortcomings.


I don't think you will anyone in this discussion stating that Boeing is not to blame at all and does not have the Lion's share of responsibility. Yes Boeing designed to a certain level of pilot competency as defined by the regulations. Should they have known better - Yes - but I think they are secretly thankful that the piss poor MCAS V1 design actually met the standards (as it took them a while to confirm that they may have had some doubt) as it will help them in the Civil lawsuits.

Just answer one question - Would the planes have crashed if they had followed the proper published procedures? Lionair is somewhat debateable as it didn't present as classic runaway stabilizer.

ET though didn't follow published procedures for safe operation with MCAS v1 (and failed to follow a few other procedures as well) - if they had they would not have crashed. Full stop. They apparently knew all about MCAS and should have easily been able to counter it.

However in the Pilot's defence I believe that their Airline never told the Pilot's about those procedures or if they did it was in such an offhand manner (sending a memo) that the proper level of importance was never placed on them.

Where was the ET emergency Pilot seminar on how to fly the MAX with MCAS V1 or something similar?

The MAX would never have been grounded if it wasn't for these fatalities as both incidents would probably never even had made it into the press.

As a requirement for ungrounding it may make sense that Pilots be able to demonstrate the ability to conduct a full flight in a MAX in full manual flight (No Autothrottle, electric trim or other Nannies) from takeoff to touch down in instrument conditions. It is not unreasonable to expect that level of competence.

I would also suggest that that become part of the Worldwide training syllabus for all aircraft worldwide as part of recurrent training.
 
morrisond
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 17, 2019 1:07 pm

Amexair wrote:
morrisond wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Have you ever read all the pages of the final ET409 report ? Your so strong claims serve your emotion without factual analysis. In fact you presented absolutely no analysis at all. Just your biased emotion. This do not lend any credence to what your are saying repetitively so often that you effectively hijacked the real subject of this thread.


I actually hadn't read it until now. I was relying on the Flight Global Article.

Start reading from page 68 - it's pretty damning of the Pilots. https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2010/et-b10 ... 125.en.pdf

I'm not trying to hijack the thread - I'm responding to those who keep coming on here who keep insisting that Boeings terrible design is the only factor that contributed to the crash.

Why that is relevant to the discussion is that training factors need to be looked at - possibly before the grounding is lifted. It would be very unfortunate if these tragedies did not result in an examination of Worldwide training standards. That may take some time but if it isn't at least started before the grounding is lifted - it will probably never happen.

Just so everyone doesn't think i'm just bashing on ET - please look at AF447 and Colgan 3407 - two other accidents where human factors were a large part of the tragedies.



Yes, but there is a time and place to have that discussion. If these crashes had occurred in any other circumstance, I would understand putting Worldwide training standards on the spotlight. Given what we know now, it is really hard to make the case for pilot error, even though there were some factors that played a role. Let's not try to deflect the real issue here because I noticed some people at the congressional hearing already doing that and I think its a shame.


Really - no pilot error? So they followed all the proper Procedures and the plane still crashed(ET)?

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