OldAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 1:02 pm

planecane wrote:
zoom321 wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-21/boeing-max-could-stay-grounded-beyond-this-year-indonesia-says?srnd=premium-asia

Despite what many fan boys may say, the world will put safety first.


It is snarky comments and attitudes like this that have ruined this thread. What "fan boys" have been saying not to put safety first? Discussing and criticizing crew actions IN ADDITION TO Boeing's design error doesn't mean not putting safety first.

Indonesians are offended because Boeing essentially blamed the crew following the Lion Air crash. Therefore, Indonesian authorities are speaking out more strongly against Boeing. Boeing should not have reacted that way when they realized that MCAS-induced runaway stabilizer led to the crash. Even though I am of the opinion that the same crew, with the same other alerts/issues going on would not have responded properly to a runaway stabilizer caused by something else as described in the FCOM/QRH, the fact that the failure mode was slightly different and undocumented means that Boeing should not have publicly blamed the crew.

With the post-Lion Air EAD and documentation of MCAS, I am also of the opinion that any crew should have been able to recognize and recover from an MCAS-induced runaway stabilizer. The fact that the ET crew didn't indicates either a training or an understanding of training and documentation issue that needs to be addressed because it might not only apply to MCAS-induced runaway stabilizer.

With all that said, I think that the grounding was the correct course of action and Boeing must demonstrate that with the fixes MCAS-induced runaway stabilizer events will happen at a rate as low or lower than other causes of runaway stabilizer. Crews should be able to handle emergencies but that doesn't mean I would want emergencies happening at a high rate to be dealt with.

They must also demonstrate that, if it does happen, crews will have the training to properly recognize it and recover from it without difficulty. Finally, they also must disclose ALL changes made from the NG to the MAX so that worldwide authorities can analyze the changes and ensure nothing else was missed during certification.

If they do all of this and a country refuses to lift the grounding, then they are doing it for reasons other than putting safety first.

I'd like to request that the anti-Boeing and/or anti-American posters please stop using the MCAS related MAX crashes to "get" Boeing or "put the U.S.A. in its place." I'd suggest the moderators lock this thread and start a news/facts only thread on the grounding. The only reason that I keep responding to things that I view as wrong is that I'm sure there is non-aviation media that reads this site for background information on MAX stories and I don't want them taking opinions or incorrect statements as facts and presenting them to the "average Joe" audience.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 1:10 pm

art wrote:
Flaps retracted because airspeed exceeded the max allowed for the flap setting?

Do you know which is dominant and which recessive where there is a conflict between what the NNC demands and what the operating manual demands eg manual gives max speed allowed for 5, 10, 15 flaps but NNC specifies keeping flaps setting at airspeed exceeding allowed airspeed for those settings?


At the Flaps 5 placard, 250 KIAS, the airplane has as much maneuver capability it is ever going to have without retracting Flaps.

At that point, the crew had complete control over pitch and power. It was a perfect point to address the "IAS Disagree" Alert by increasing pitch to 10 deg and reducing power to 80% N1.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 1:16 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
So you want really insist on Boeing telling everybody about MCAS and allowing training for that new dangerous situation, would not have prevented the crashes? Really?


After the EAD, the world knew about MCAS and Boeing did not prevent any airline operating the MAX from training for a Stabilizer Runaway.

Yet ET 302 still crashed.


Boeing made pretty sure that you could not train for MCAS in a simulator, by making sure that simulators would not show MCAS. I do not talk about stabilizer runaway. I talk about MCAS, a by the flight computer commanded aggressive nose down trim.

Calling MCAS a normal runaway trim is about the joke of the century.

That Lion air and Ethiopian crashed is 100% on Boeing, by first designing an absurd failure prone dangerous flight system and than by trying to hide it from pilots.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 1:24 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
The order of NNC should have been:

- Stall Recovery (perhaps performed as speed was increased to 250 KIAS but Flaps retracted with an active stick shaker)
- Unreliable Airspeed (not performed as pitch was not increased to 10 deg and power was not reduced to 80% N1)
- Runaway Stabilizer (performed but incorrectly as the airplane was out of trim when the Stab Trim Cutout switches were thrown)

None of JT043, JT610, ET302 ever stalled, why did you want them to execute a Stall Recovery NCC when a stale didn't exists in the first place ?

Please note that the Stall Recovery NCC and the Unreliable Airspeed NCC are highly incompatible. One require to increase speed and pitch down, and the other require to reduce speed and pitch up. The solution you propose is incoherent.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 1:28 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:

Lion Air Preliminary Report relating to JT043-
"The PIC performed three Non-Normal Checklists and none contained the instruction “Plan to land at the nearest suitable airport”.

JT043 followed your much vaunted NNCs to the letter. surely you support this?

Ironically, JT043 was the one of three that elected to continue the flight and landed successfully. It is quite possible that if JT043 had elected to return any time in the first ~6mins of flight, prior to Stab Trim Cut-Off, it would have been JT043 that crashed rather than JT610.

Ray


I certainly support the actions of the JT043 crew except for retracting Flaps with an active stick shaker. They performed the three NNC (at least in part) and didn't crash. If the decision had been made to return in the first 6 minutes, extending the Flaps would have stopped the malfunctioning MCAS.

The decision to continue the flight with an active stick shaker is questionable. Good Airmanship needs to kick in at some point.


All 4 flights with similar conditions reacted in a similar way and retracted flaps. Good Airmanship? following Unreliable Airspeed NNC? or just plain wrong because they were not you?

You seem to able to alternate strict NNC compliance and Good Airmanship with gay abandon as suits your position at the time of writing. Why can you not countenance accepting that all crews may well have established that single side stick shaker was not a valid indication of stall as a possibility? Does this give pilots too much credit and undermine the 'foreign pilots did it' byline.

Ray
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 1:32 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
That being said I'll bet you I practised it more (stalls) than either of the ET pilots plus full spins which I doubt they did.
[...]
About 90K hours of Part 25 airplane design & performance, safety and certification experience.

Fine, I will believe you only when you will be able to describe in detail how is done a 737 NG/MAX runaway stabilizer training session on a simulator.


You are taking quotes out of context and mixing up OldAeroGuy and me.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 1:41 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
So you want really insist on Boeing telling everybody about MCAS and allowing training for that new dangerous situation, would not have prevented the crashes? Really?


After the EAD, the world knew about MCAS and Boeing did not prevent any airline operating the MAX from training for a Stabilizer Runaway.

Yet ET 302 still crashed.


Boeing made pretty sure that you could not train for MCAS in a simulator, by making sure that simulators would not show MCAS. I do not talk about stabilizer runaway. I talk about MCAS, a by the flight computer commanded aggressive nose down trim.

Calling MCAS a normal runaway trim is about the joke of the century.

That Lion air and Ethiopian crashed is 100% on Boeing, by first designing an absurd failure prone dangerous flight system and than by trying to hide it from pilots.


And this is why this thread keeps going around and around.

So you won't accept the pilots made any mistakes at all? No one is disputing that it isn't a screwed up design.

What level of competency are you willing to accept in commercial pilots ability to deal with non-normal situations?

This was a recoverable situation - it's not as those one of the flight control surfaces fell off or an uncontained engine failure severed all hydraulics in a wing.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 1:46 pm

morrisond wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:

After the EAD, the world knew about MCAS and Boeing did not prevent any airline operating the MAX from training for a Stabilizer Runaway.

Yet ET 302 still crashed.


Boeing made pretty sure that you could not train for MCAS in a simulator, by making sure that simulators would not show MCAS. I do not talk about stabilizer runaway. I talk about MCAS, a by the flight computer commanded aggressive nose down trim.

Calling MCAS a normal runaway trim is about the joke of the century.

That Lion air and Ethiopian crashed is 100% on Boeing, by first designing an absurd failure prone dangerous flight system and than by trying to hide it from pilots.


And this is why this thread keeps going around and around.

So you won't accept the pilots made any mistakes at all? No one is disputing that it isn't a screwed up design.

What level of competency are you willing to accept in commercial pilots ability to deal with non-normal situations?

This was a recoverable situation - it's not as those one of the flight control surfaces fell off or an uncontained engine failure severed all hydraulics in a wing.


That it was a recoverable situation is just your opinion.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 1:54 pm

planecane wrote:
"One of them?" Well you are "one of them" that insists everything is Boeing's fault and they created an unrecoverable death trap. Like it or not, the dead pilots did make errors just like Boeing engineers made errors. They aren't immune from criticism because they perished. It is 100% true that if MCAS had been designed properly these crashes wouldn't have happened because these two flights wouldn't have faced a runaway stabilizer. It is also true that crews are expected to know how to recover from a runaway stabilizer as it is a memory item NNC. You can argue semantics in the FCOM and QRH caused the Lion Air crew not to recognize a runaway stabilizer. However, after the documentation changes ordered by the EAD, all subsequent crews should have been able to recognize it. I certainly hope that the WN crew of the MAX I flew on in December 2018 would have.

Don't assign your action to me. you wrote "I'd suggest the moderators lock this thread and start a news/facts only thread on the grounding", not me. Yes we are talking here about the consequence of 346 deaths, and yes we are talking here about an aircraft that expose a new hidden repetitive unsafe condition requiring multiple fixes and deliberately never trained by any 737 pilots (all that from Boeing official/public words). Is that a trap for the pilots ? It's a least confusing, as the raw reality have show.

I don't care assigning fault. My motivation is to understand all the actions that can be learned to improve safety. This certainly includes documentations (manuals, procedures, memory items, etc..). Simply stating that the documentation is right and that nothing need to be changed is a deny of the reality that the actual state of that documentation did not allowed to avoid the crashes. Maybe the training need to be improved as well, but I remain you that Boeing public position is actually not in line with a such change. Not my action, not my position.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 1:55 pm

morrisond wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
That being said I'll bet you I practised it more (stalls) than either of the ET pilots plus full spins which I doubt they did.
[...]
About 90K hours of Part 25 airplane design & performance, safety and certification experience.

Fine, I will believe you only when you will be able to describe in detail how is done a 737 NG/MAX runaway stabilizer training session on a simulator.


You are taking quotes out of context and mixing up OldAeroGuy and me.

Oops, sorry for that ! :white:
The correct post would be:

morrisond wrote:
That being said I'll bet you I practised it more (stalls) than either of the ET pilots plus full spins which I doubt they did.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1421471&start=1350#p21371337

OldAeroGuy wrote:
About 90K hours of Part 25 airplane design & performance, safety and certification experience.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1421471&start=1350#p21371829

I still will believe both of you only when you will be able to describe in detail how is done a 737 NG/MAX runaway stabilizer training session on a simulator.
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 2:32 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
All 4 flights with similar conditions reacted in a similar way and retracted flaps. Good Airmanship? following Unreliable Airspeed NNC? or just plain wrong because they were not you?


Before we go any further with this discussion, please name the 4th flight you're referring to.

I have:

JT 043
JT 610
ET 302

What's the 4th?
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Agrajag
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 2:47 pm

https://www-cnbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org ... crash.html.

Wasnt this the working theory from the beginning? Why is it breaking news now? The headline was along the lines of 'relief at Boeing as share price increases on the news that bird strike was responsible for downed Max jet'.

Well, yeah, but.....
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
Slartibartfast had a point
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 2:56 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Fine, I will believe you only when you will be able to describe in detail how is done a 737 NG/MAX runaway stabilizer training session on a simulator.


You are taking quotes out of context and mixing up OldAeroGuy and me.

Oops, sorry for that ! :white:
The correct post would be:

morrisond wrote:
That being said I'll bet you I practised it more (stalls) than either of the ET pilots plus full spins which I doubt they did.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1421471&start=1350#p21371337

OldAeroGuy wrote:
About 90K hours of Part 25 airplane design & performance, safety and certification experience.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1421471&start=1350#p21371829

I still will believe both of you only when you will be able to describe in detail how is done a 737 NG/MAX runaway stabilizer training session on a simulator.


Personally I have no clue how a runaway stabilizer session is done in the 737 SIM - I would assume following the NNC would be a good start for proper recovery. But I don't think that has anything to do with with me having done actual stalls. I did do stalls in an Air Canada A320 Full motion Simulator and it was just like a Cessna - pretty benign - lower nose to get the wing flying again and use the rudder pedals to offset wing drop/ apply power if necessary.

I posted Video yesterday of a 737 NG stalling and it seemed about the same as the 320 or a Cessna. They are all airplanes.

The reason I said I have probably done more stalls/spins is that I went through the Canadian System twice (I started and soloed during University but decided not to finish at that point as I didn't want it for a career and I ran out of money and then started again about 12 years ago and finished) - I practiced a lot of stalls/spins and landings because in a Cessna drilling holes in the sky is pretty boring. I learned at Toronto City Centre Airport and my goal was to make the first turnoff when practicing Short Field landings (into a good headwind).

In total I have about 120 hours. With about 30 more hours of experience the ET pilots completed there night ratings, Instrument ratings and Commercial Pilot ratings and were put into a cockpit of an 737 - In order to do all that I doubt they had as much stick time practicing at the limits of Airplane performance (Although it is hard to use the words Cessna and Performance in the same sentence).

That all being said I really don't have any experience at all and neither do the ET pilots - but I know how an Airplane stalls and it really isn't that big of a deal. If you don't have the mental ability to deal with something as simple as a stall - you shouldn't be a pilot.
 
Agrajag
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 3:02 pm

morrisond wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:

You are taking quotes out of context and mixing up OldAeroGuy and me.

Oops, sorry for that ! :white:
The correct post would be:

morrisond wrote:
That being said I'll bet you I practised it more (stalls) than either of the ET pilots plus full spins which I doubt they did.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1421471&start=1350#p21371337

OldAeroGuy wrote:
About 90K hours of Part 25 airplane design & performance, safety and certification experience.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1421471&start=1350#p21371829

I still will believe both of you only when you will be able to describe in detail how is done a 737 NG/MAX runaway stabilizer training session on a simulator.


Personally I have no clue how a runaway stabilizer session is done in the 737 SIM - I would assume following the NNC would be a good start for proper recovery. But I don't think that has anything to do with with me having done actual stalls. I did do stalls in an Air Canada A320 Full motion Simulator and it was just like a Cessna - pretty benign - lower nose to get the wing flying again and use the rudder pedals to offset wing drop/ apply power if necessary.

I posted Video yesterday of a 737 NG stalling and it seemed about the same as the 320 or a Cessna. They are all airplanes.

The reason I said I have probably done more stalls/spins is that I went through the Canadian System twice (I started and soloed during University but decided not to finish at that point as I didn't want it for a career and I ran out of money and then started again about 12 years ago and finished) - I practiced a lot of stalls/spins and landings because in a Cessna drilling holes in the sky is pretty boring. I learned at Toronto City Centre Airport and my goal was to make the first turnoff when practicing Short Field landings (into a good headwind).

In total I have about 120 hours. With about 30 more hours of experience the ET pilots completed there night ratings, Instrument ratings and Commercial Pilot ratings and were put into a cockpit of an 737 - In order to do all that I doubt they had as much stick time practicing at the limits of Airplane performance (Although it is hard to use the words Cessna and Performance in the same sentence).

That all being said I really don't have any experience at all and neither do the ET pilots - but I know how an Airplane stalls and it really isn't that big of a deal. If you don't have the mental ability to deal with something as simple as a stall - you shouldn't be a pilot.


We have a winner ladies and gentlemen!!
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
Slartibartfast had a point
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 3:06 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
I still will believe both of you only when you will be able to describe in detail how is done a 737 NG/MAX runaway stabilizer training session on a simulator.


Is this the sort of thing you're looking for?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xixM_cwSLcQ
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 3:10 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
So you want really insist on Boeing telling everybody about MCAS and allowing training for that new dangerous situation, would not have prevented the crashes? Really?


After the EAD, the world knew about MCAS and Boeing did not prevent any airline operating the MAX from training for a Stabilizer Runaway.

Yet ET 302 still crashed.

As details of runaway stabilizer - blowback effect, roller coaster trim procedure - were not communicated to airlines (probably because they were not understood/forgotten by Boeing, as company apparently is loosing control over design).
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 3:24 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
These pilots are "grounded" forever and wont tell you anymore. This thread is about the grounded MAX. Ask the question in the thread about the ET crash.


Interesting interpretation. The MAX is grounded due to two crashes. The crashes were caused by mistakes by Boeing and the flight crews. It would seem that both topics are open for discussion in this thread.
[/quote]
It does not require interpretation that Boeing is in focus in this thread and the crashes in the dedicated threads.

OldAeroGuy wrote:
Have you suggested to the Anet Mods that replies discussing pilot performance on this thread be deleted?

No. I trust in self-persuasion.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 3:50 pm

kalvado wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
So you want really insist on Boeing telling everybody about MCAS and allowing training for that new dangerous situation, would not have prevented the crashes? Really?


After the EAD, the world knew about MCAS and Boeing did not prevent any airline operating the MAX from training for a Stabilizer Runaway.

Yet ET 302 still crashed.

As details of runaway stabilizer - blowback effect, roller coaster trim procedure - were not communicated to airlines (probably because they were not understood/forgotten by Boeing, as company apparently is loosing control over design).


Runaway Stabilizer and blowback effect apply to all commerical jets - they are not 737 Unique and would be covered by basic training.

I think someone showed an excerpt from an actual 737 training manual or document a week or two ago and Boeing does mention that you may have to relieve pressure on the control column to allow the trim wheels to turn if you are out of trim. If you are severely out of trim you just have to do it multiple times A.k.a the roller coaster procedure.
 
THS214
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 4:22 pm

morrisond wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
The point is: Why were the Flaps retracted with an active stick shaker, contrary to the "STALL RECOVERY" NNC ?

Because they looked out of the window and could see they were clearly not in a stall situation?
Morrisond assures us that the numerous clues on approach to stall are so blindingly obvious that they cannot be missed. He has stalled a Cessna dozens of times. :yes:
Apart from the stick shaker, what indications of an approaching stall did they have?

No Flap retraction -> No MCAS and need to run the "STAB RUNAWAY" NNC.

Yeah, I get that.
Hindsight is a such a beautiful thing.



Nice personal attack BTW.

That being said I'll bet you I practised it more (stalls) than either of the ET pilots plus full spins which I doubt they did.

If you think I'm inexperienced just remember both ET pilots had marginally more hours and they were put into the cockpit of a 737. So if you think I'm inexperienced WTH are they doing in the cockpit of a 737.


How many of those stalls and full spins were in a jet and how many in 737 category jets?

In a small cessna you can keep yock full back and that plane keeps on recovering on its own. Spin recovery in an aircraft were spin is allowed are relatively easy. Stall and spin in a training aircraft and in a 737 are very different.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 4:23 pm

morrisond wrote:

Runaway Stabilizer and blowback effect apply to all commerical jets - they are not 737 Unique and would be covered by basic training.



Perhaps, but no other manufacturer has managed to produce a similar deadly ambush like MCAS going amok.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 4:24 pm

Sorry, my last post was wrongly formatted (and cant be fixed anymore). Here the correct structure:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
These pilots are "grounded" forever and wont tell you anymore. This thread is about the grounded MAX. Ask the question in the thread about the ET crash.


Interesting interpretation. The MAX is grounded due to two crashes. The crashes were caused by mistakes by Boeing and the flight crews. It would seem that both topics are open for discussion in this thread.

It does not require interpretation that Boeing is in focus in this thread and the crashes in the dedicated threads.

OldAeroGuy wrote:
Have you suggested to the Anet Mods that replies discussing pilot performance on this thread be deleted?

No. I trust in self-persuasion.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
IADFCO
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 4:46 pm

In your discussion of the pilots' responsibility in the two MAX crashes, you may want to keep this in mind:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdala_hijack

https://apstraining.com/the-biology-of- ... f-control/

from the second link:
"The term “amygdala hijack”, coined by author Daniel Goleman in his 1996 book Emotional Intelligence, was used primarily to describe an inappropriate response to an emotional situation, but it can apply in physically threatening situations as well. As he put it, “…the architecture of the brain gives the amygdala a privileged position as the emotional sentinel, able to hijack the brain.” The amygdala receives sensory inputs before they ever get to the prefrontal cortex, it “cuts ‘em off at the pass” and provides reactions before the smarter parts of the brain even have a chance to evaluate the data.

This can lead pilots to exhibit unreliable and unpredictable behavior when confronted with an unexpected airplane upset event. The way to prevent this is through training. The mental modeling provided by [training] establishes neural pathways and behavioral responses appropriate to upset situations. Instead of being overwhelmed by unfamiliar and threatening forces, instrument and warning annunciations, and visual scenes the pilot calls upon structured responses learned through practice [...]."

BTW, I doubt that you can provoke a full blown amygdala hijack in a simulator, but you can definitely overload a pilot in a sim to the point that an EEG shows a change in the direction of his or her brain activity.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 4:50 pm

planecane wrote:
zoom321 wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-21/boeing-max-could-stay-grounded-beyond-this-year-indonesia-says?srnd=premium-asia

Despite what many fan boys may say, the world will put safety first.


It is snarky comments and attitudes like this that have ruined this thread. What "fan boys" have been saying not to put safety first? Discussing and criticizing crew actions IN ADDITION TO Boeing's design error doesn't mean not putting safety first.

Indonesians are offended because Boeing essentially blamed the crew following the Lion Air crash. Therefore, Indonesian authorities are speaking out more strongly against Boeing. Boeing should not have reacted that way when they realized that MCAS-induced runaway stabilizer led to the crash. Even though I am of the opinion that the same crew, with the same other alerts/issues going on would not have responded properly to a runaway stabilizer caused by something else as described in the FCOM/QRH, the fact that the failure mode was slightly different and undocumented means that Boeing should not have publicly blamed the crew.

With the post-Lion Air EAD and documentation of MCAS, I am also of the opinion that any crew should have been able to recognize and recover from an MCAS-induced runaway stabilizer. The fact that the ET crew didn't indicates either a training or an understanding of training and documentation issue that needs to be addressed because it might not only apply to MCAS-induced runaway stabilizer.

With all that said, I think that the grounding was the correct course of action and Boeing must demonstrate that with the fixes MCAS-induced runaway stabilizer events will happen at a rate as low or lower than other causes of runaway stabilizer. Crews should be able to handle emergencies but that doesn't mean I would want emergencies happening at a high rate to be dealt with.

They must also demonstrate that, if it does happen, crews will have the training to properly recognize it and recover from it without difficulty. Finally, they also must disclose ALL changes made from the NG to the MAX so that worldwide authorities can analyze the changes and ensure nothing else was missed during certification.

If they do all of this and a country refuses to lift the grounding, then they are doing it for reasons other than putting safety first.

I'd like to request that the anti-Boeing and/or anti-American posters please stop using the MCAS related MAX crashes to "get" Boeing or "put the U.S.A. in its place." I'd suggest the moderators lock this thread and start a news/facts only thread on the grounding. The only reason that I keep responding to things that I view as wrong is that I'm sure there is non-aviation media that reads this site for background information on MAX stories and I don't want them taking opinions or incorrect statements as facts and presenting them to the "average Joe" audience.

I was not going to respond to this post since you make some reasoned points and have done so before. However, I think the un-necessary attack on PixelFlight has persuaded me otherwise, so I come back to it.

This thread was hijacked from the start by those wishing to push the 'Foreign Pilots did it' Boeing line and only that line. Some felt it necessary to respond and continue to do so as the same line is trotted out again and again.

You yourself, are a prime exponent of the incorrect use of the word 'fact', paragraphs 4 and 5 being cases in point. These are not facts. I can recall no other poster who actually does so as consistently (yes, I have read the vast majority of posts on all 5 threads).

You have been provided with considered analyses that provide possible alternative interpretations of the data and consistently ignore these if they do not support your bias (no, I'm not going to repeat them, you can go back and look as well as me, and you'll probably ignore them again anyway).

I am not aware of "Anti" posters, but accept there may be one or two. If there are, they are overwhelmed by the 'Foreign Pilots did it' posters. The only place I can recall seeing the words you put in quotes (except "average Joe") is in your post, so assume you are quoting yourself. As for the media, a law unto themselves, they will make their own minds up, except for those bought and paid for already. You can always scream 'fake news' if the outcome does not suit you.

If I were Indonesian, I would have been irked with the Boeing line being trotted out even before the Preliminary Report was released. I would be absolutely livid this week that the line is still being trotted out by Boeing, but also now by the FAA in front of a congressional hearing. The lack of Integrity and humility is astonishing. I think the Indonesian response is remarkably measured. Whilst Boeing can hide a little behind 'its what you might expect from a corporation in their position', there is no hiding place for the FAA.

On a personal note and perhaps as a paid up member of ROTW, my view of the integrity of the FAA was severely shaken by the events and revelations following the second crash. The line I would have expected the FAA to take this week would be something like - Design and certification of MAX and actions following the two crash event will be thoroughly investigated and ourselves and Boeing will be held accountable for any deficiencies identified and their correction. - What did we get 'Foreign Pilots did it'. All vestiges of integrity gone.

This is a desparate position for the whole world.

Ray
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 4:56 pm

morrisond wrote:
kalvado wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:

After the EAD, the world knew about MCAS and Boeing did not prevent any airline operating the MAX from training for a Stabilizer Runaway.

Yet ET 302 still crashed.

As details of runaway stabilizer - blowback effect, roller coaster trim procedure - were not communicated to airlines (probably because they were not understood/forgotten by Boeing, as company apparently is loosing control over design).


Runaway Stabilizer and blowback effect apply to all commerical jets - they are not 737 Unique and would be covered by basic training.

I think someone showed an excerpt from an actual 737 training manual or document a week or two ago and Boeing does mention that you may have to relieve pressure on the control column to allow the trim wheels to turn if you are out of trim. If you are severely out of trim you just have to do it multiple times A.k.a the roller coaster procedure.

It is a matter of doing things manually - not sure if manual wheels are the first fallback item on any modern jet. ANd appropriate part of manual was supplied with classics, I believe. NG got more reliable electronics, severe runaway became history, so associated procedures got mostly depreciated. Too bad Boeing is bringing back design standards of 1940s - 1960s..
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 5:08 pm

THS214 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Because they looked out of the window and could see they were clearly not in a stall situation?
Morrisond assures us that the numerous clues on approach to stall are so blindingly obvious that they cannot be missed. He has stalled a Cessna dozens of times. :yes:
Apart from the stick shaker, what indications of an approaching stall did they have?


Yeah, I get that.
Hindsight is a such a beautiful thing.



Nice personal attack BTW.

That being said I'll bet you I practised it more (stalls) than either of the ET pilots plus full spins which I doubt they did.

If you think I'm inexperienced just remember both ET pilots had marginally more hours and they were put into the cockpit of a 737. So if you think I'm inexperienced WTH are they doing in the cockpit of a 737.


How many of those stalls and full spins were in a jet and how many in 737 category jets?

In a small cessna you can keep yock full back and that plane keeps on recovering on its own. Spin recovery in an aircraft were spin is allowed are relatively easy. Stall and spin in a training aircraft and in a 737 are very different.


None - and no 737 pilot has done any in an 737 either but the principles are the same - it's too expensive to do it in an actual plane as you could damage a lot of the interior furnishings. That is why the US has mandated Sims that allow full stall training and requires pilot's to complete training on them.

Yes - you can keep Yoke full back and a Cessna will most likely recover on it's own - as the Wing is stalled the nose will drop to the point where gravity will increase the speed of the air over the wing so it is unstalled, and assuming you don't let it develop into a spin by letting a wing drop. You could probably do the same in an 737 as well. They are required to stall like a Cessna by the FAR's.

If you have some evidence that a 737 is death trap in a stall please produce it. As far as I know the only commercial aircraft that have stalled in the last 10 years and the Pilots were unable to recover was an A330 on AF447 and a Dash 8-400 on Colgan 3407 , both were ruled Pilot Error.

However the whole point of this was some were implying that a stall could develop on a 737 in a split second and all bets were off. In reality if you watch the video - even in an 30 Degree Bank corner it takes some time to develop - there are tons of warnings and correcting it simple - before you even get into the stall - and if you do it's really not a death sentence - the people in the back will get banged around but any pilot should be able to recover from a stall and it should never develop into a spin.

Here is the 737 NG Video again - No one commented on it yesterday when it was posted probably because it's pretty evident that you would have to be pretty incompetent to allow a stall to develop with all the warnings in the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCJco59tqoQ
Last edited by morrisond on Tue May 21, 2019 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 5:14 pm

kalvado wrote:
morrisond wrote:
kalvado wrote:
As details of runaway stabilizer - blowback effect, roller coaster trim procedure - were not communicated to airlines (probably because they were not understood/forgotten by Boeing, as company apparently is loosing control over design).


Runaway Stabilizer and blowback effect apply to all commerical jets - they are not 737 Unique and would be covered by basic training.

I think someone showed an excerpt from an actual 737 training manual or document a week or two ago and Boeing does mention that you may have to relieve pressure on the control column to allow the trim wheels to turn if you are out of trim. If you are severely out of trim you just have to do it multiple times A.k.a the roller coaster procedure.

It is a matter of doing things manually - not sure if manual wheels are the first fallback item on any modern jet. ANd appropriate part of manual was supplied with classics, I believe. NG got more reliable electronics, severe runaway became history, so associated procedures got mostly depreciated. Too bad Boeing is bringing back design standards of 1940s - 1960s..


Well then you better condemn the A320 as well. It's fallback system is a Manual trim wheel as well. If needed in an Emergency in an out of trim condition at Vmo or over I would have to guess that it would be pretty hard to turn and the Elevators would suffer from blowback as well.

It's amazing that no matter how much information OldAeroGuy and myself keep putting up refuting the common misconceptions - no one ever admits that maybe they might be slightly wrong and revert back to the "Boeing is Evil" rant.
 
art
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 5:19 pm

On a different tack, without discussing the minutiae of MCAS design and implementation - or any other particular system, will the scrutiny of the processes involved in MAX certification result in further elements of the 737 MAX being subject to investigation?

The logic would be that if MCAS was deemed adequate for certification but on subsequent investigation proved not to be so, how does one know that other systems deemed adequate for certification using the same methodology really were?
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 5:24 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Runaway Stabilizer and blowback effect apply to all commerical jets - they are not 737 Unique and would be covered by basic training.



Perhaps, but no other manufacturer has managed to produce a similar deadly ambush like MCAS going amok.


Please see Lufthansa 1829 an A321 incident from 2014. It took them 4,000' to recover - if this had happened at the same altitude (about 1-2,000' AGL) MCAS attacked ET302 it could have crashed sooner as this put the Horizontal Stabilizer to the stops in one go assuming the Pilots were not paying attention and were able to figure out the proper response in time.

https://avherald.com/h?article=47d74074
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 5:25 pm

morrisond wrote:
kalvado wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Runaway Stabilizer and blowback effect apply to all commerical jets - they are not 737 Unique and would be covered by basic training.

I think someone showed an excerpt from an actual 737 training manual or document a week or two ago and Boeing does mention that you may have to relieve pressure on the control column to allow the trim wheels to turn if you are out of trim. If you are severely out of trim you just have to do it multiple times A.k.a the roller coaster procedure.

It is a matter of doing things manually - not sure if manual wheels are the first fallback item on any modern jet. ANd appropriate part of manual was supplied with classics, I believe. NG got more reliable electronics, severe runaway became history, so associated procedures got mostly depreciated. Too bad Boeing is bringing back design standards of 1940s - 1960s..


Well then you better condemn the A320 as well. It's fallback system is a Manual trim wheel as well. If needed in an Emergency in an out of trim condition at Vmo or over I would have to guess that it would be pretty hard to turn and the Elevators would suffer from blowback as well.

It's amazing that no matter how much information OldAeroGuy and myself keep putting up refuting the common misconceptions - no one ever admits that maybe they might be slightly wrong and revert back to the "Boeing is Evil" rant.

It is their fourth fallback option after all FBW degraded mode. I specifically pointed at wheels being first fallback option for 737.
Its amazing how people still fail to grasp simple arithmetic concepts lice counting to 3. One-two-three, what can be easier than that?
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 5:28 pm

art wrote:
On a different tack, without discussing the minutiae of MCAS design and implementation - or any other particular system, will the scrutiny of the processes involved in MAX certification result in further elements of the 737 MAX being subject to investigation?

The logic would be that if MCAS was deemed adequate for certification but on subsequent investigation proved not to be so, how does one know that other systems deemed adequate for certification using the same methodology really were?


Yes - other elements of the MAX could be under further scrutiny - however I'm just not sure if there are that many other differences between the MAX and NG.

The FBW spoilers are certainly new so I hope those are looked at - and Boeing did mention there was one other issue they cleaned up with Software - but no one seems to know what that is.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 5:33 pm

art wrote:
On a different tack, without discussing the minutiae of MCAS design and implementation - or any other particular system, will the scrutiny of the processes involved in MAX certification result in further elements of the 737 MAX being subject to investigation?

The logic would be that if MCAS was deemed adequate for certification but on subsequent investigation proved not to be so, how does one know that other systems deemed adequate for certification using the same methodology really were?

My impression is that Boeing and FAA are doing their best to avoid such a scenario. Which is a fairly risky gamble - but it can be justified if consequences of extended delay are too harsh.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 5:34 pm

kalvado wrote:
morrisond wrote:
kalvado wrote:
It is a matter of doing things manually - not sure if manual wheels are the first fallback item on any modern jet. ANd appropriate part of manual was supplied with classics, I believe. NG got more reliable electronics, severe runaway became history, so associated procedures got mostly depreciated. Too bad Boeing is bringing back design standards of 1940s - 1960s..


Well then you better condemn the A320 as well. It's fallback system is a Manual trim wheel as well. If needed in an Emergency in an out of trim condition at Vmo or over I would have to guess that it would be pretty hard to turn and the Elevators would suffer from blowback as well.

It's amazing that no matter how much information OldAeroGuy and myself keep putting up refuting the common misconceptions - no one ever admits that maybe they might be slightly wrong and revert back to the "Boeing is Evil" rant.

It is their fourth fallback option after all FBW degraded mode. I specifically pointed at wheels being first fallback option for 737.
Its amazing how people still fail to grasp simple arithmetic concepts lice counting to 3. One-two-three, what can be easier than that?


It depends on what the failure is. Depending on the failure it can go right to Direct Law. What does it matter if it's the first or tenth - they were needed for certification - if you are going to condemn the 737 for it's manual trim system that might not be effective in certain aspects of flight then you better condemn all aircraft that are relying upon the same type of system for there certification because the trim wheels will probably not work in the same situations either.
Last edited by morrisond on Tue May 21, 2019 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 5:38 pm

I don't post very often, and in this particular MAX thread, I haven't posted. I do read this, as I want to know what evolutions there are

I think now I should await the outcome of the meeting on 23 May before taking more attention!

Until now, I see that this thread has descended to the lowest level of A.net threads, with 3 or 4 posters having arguments with each other endlessly, which is both childish, and very boring for the others. While the topic is of interest, the current level of one-on-one battles is tedious and excruciating, so could you go elsewhere and do this, or open a new thread for your private battles, please

Why not lay off this childish stuff, the 23 May meeting is just days away, and some "real news" will come from that

Leave a.net available for all, please!
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 5:49 pm

sassiciai wrote:
I don't post very often, and in this particular MAX thread, I haven't posted. I do read this, as I want to know what evolutions there are

I think now I should await the outcome of the meeting on 23 May before taking more attention!

Until now, I see that this thread has descended to the lowest level of A.net threads, with 3 or 4 posters having arguments with each other endlessly, which is both childish, and very boring for the others. While the topic is of interest, the current level of one-on-one battles is tedious and excruciating, so could you go elsewhere and do this, or open a new thread for your private battles, please

Why not lay off this childish stuff, the 23 May meeting is just days away, and some "real news" will come from that

Leave a.net available for all, please!


OK then - No posts allowed unless they say Boeing is evil and is 100% responsible and the training system had nothing to do with it all and doesn't need to be improved one bit to to make air travel safer.

This can be the thread where you Boeing bash all day long and we will make another one about training?

Would that make you happy?

I'll be surprised if the 23rd brings anything meaningful. There will be some compromise that requires further study I'm sure.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 5:51 pm

My apologies if this has already been posted, but there is now speculation that bird strikes to the MCAS sensor might have caused the crash: https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... n-airlines

ccording to the Wall Street Journal, US aviation authorities believe a bird collision may have set off the sequence of events that led to the downing of an Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max in March, in which 157 people died.


I don't know what to make of this.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 5:58 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
My apologies if this has already been posted, but there is now speculation that bird strikes to the MCAS sensor might have caused the crash: https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... n-airlines

ccording to the Wall Street Journal, US aviation authorities believe a bird collision may have set off the sequence of events that led to the downing of an Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max in March, in which 157 people died.


I don't know what to make of this.


The Ethiopian CEO was on CNBC yesterday swearing up and down that it wasn't a bird strike. Then it was either a faulty sensor or was installed incorrectly somehow - which I think some have said is almost impossible.

It's all Boeing's fault as I guess there must be no birds in Ethiopia.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 6:00 pm

morrisond wrote:
sassiciai wrote:
I don't post very often, and in this particular MAX thread, I haven't posted. I do read this, as I want to know what evolutions there are

I think now I should await the outcome of the meeting on 23 May before taking more attention!

Until now, I see that this thread has descended to the lowest level of A.net threads, with 3 or 4 posters having arguments with each other endlessly, which is both childish, and very boring for the others. While the topic is of interest, the current level of one-on-one battles is tedious and excruciating, so could you go elsewhere and do this, or open a new thread for your private battles, please

Why not lay off this childish stuff, the 23 May meeting is just days away, and some "real news" will come from that

Leave a.net available for all, please!


OK then - No posts allowed unless they say Boeing is evil and is 100% responsible and the training system had nothing to do with it all and doesn't need to be improved one bit to to make air travel safer.

This can be the thread where you Boeing bash all day long and we will make another one about training?

Would that make you happy?

I'll be surprised if the 23rd brings anything meaningful. There will be some compromise that requires further study I'm sure.


WTF! How did my post to the entire thread prompt you to conclude what you did in order to make such a silly and childish reply?

No more on this individual's input!

Let's all wait for some "news" before some posters put their knees where their feet already went! Otherwise, crow pie all round! Some here are already having trouble with their first serving!
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 6:02 pm

morrisond wrote:
kalvado wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Well then you better condemn the A320 as well. It's fallback system is a Manual trim wheel as well. If needed in an Emergency in an out of trim condition at Vmo or over I would have to guess that it would be pretty hard to turn and the Elevators would suffer from blowback as well.

It's amazing that no matter how much information OldAeroGuy and myself keep putting up refuting the common misconceptions - no one ever admits that maybe they might be slightly wrong and revert back to the "Boeing is Evil" rant.

It is their fourth fallback option after all FBW degraded mode. I specifically pointed at wheels being first fallback option for 737.
Its amazing how people still fail to grasp simple arithmetic concepts lice counting to 3. One-two-three, what can be easier than that?


It depends on what the failure is. Depending on the failure it can go right to Direct Law. What does it matter if it's the first or tenth - they were needed for certification - if you are going to condemn the 737 for it's manual trim system that might not be effective in certain aspects of flight then you better condemn all aircraft that are relying upon the same type of system for there certification because the trim wheels will probably not work in the same situations either.

I know concepts of statistics and probability are challenging for many people, including many skygods with tens of rated types and tens thousands of hours in cockpit in their past...
But there are very few things positively required by certification laws. It is about probability of failure modes - hard to write that into law once and for all as those depend on aircraft.
What are the probabilities of failure mode going to direct law on A-320? I would expect they are calculated as pretty low, and I believe manual backup was never required in actual flight. And while you can expect any crazy failure mode - at some point you have to accept the risk. Dual engine shutdown in ETOPS is the most known acceptable crash case.

Compare that to 737, where manual backup is a memory item for a failure with >1e-5 probability. Requirements to those redundant systems instantly skyrocket just because they are much higher in failure pyramid.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 6:05 pm

morrisond wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
My apologies if this has already been posted, but there is now speculation that bird strikes to the MCAS sensor might have caused the crash: https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... n-airlines

ccording to the Wall Street Journal, US aviation authorities believe a bird collision may have set off the sequence of events that led to the downing of an Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max in March, in which 157 people died.


I don't know what to make of this.


The Ethiopian CEO was on CNBC yesterday swearing up and down that it wasn't a bird strike. Then it was either a faulty sensor or was installed incorrectly somehow - which I think some have said is almost impossible.

It's all Boeing's fault as I guess there must be no birds in Ethiopia.

Its part of an evil plan to badmouth Boeing:
now everyone will do their best to prove this was a birdstrike - and then bad guys turn around and say "oh, you design airplanes which crash due to a birdstrike??"
Two steps. TWO..... Looks like they are outsmarting Boeing with such convoluted plans!
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 6:35 pm

Question for Boeing, what range of the stabilizer was MCAS designed for? Will they now limit the range to certain angles of operation, like no neutral to nose down? If the elevator now will have 1.5g control under MCAS, what angle does that occur at on the stabilizer?

I wonder what the stall looks like in the worst case scenario, the shortest moment arm (the MAX 7), aft loaded, with the stabilizer at full nose up position, with the pilots pulling full up on the elevator until the aircraft stalls.
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 6:42 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
My apologies if this has already been posted, but there is now speculation that bird strikes to the MCAS sensor might have caused the crash: https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... n-airlines

ccording to the Wall Street Journal, US aviation authorities believe a bird collision may have set off the sequence of events that led to the downing of an Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max in March, in which 157 people died.


I don't know what to make of this.


Personally what difference does this make. A bird takes out a single sensor and the plane turns into a death ride. MCAS implementation still at fault.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 6:53 pm

morrisond wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
My apologies if this has already been posted, but there is now speculation that bird strikes to the MCAS sensor might have caused the crash: https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... n-airlines

ccording to the Wall Street Journal, US aviation authorities believe a bird collision may have set off the sequence of events that led to the downing of an Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max in March, in which 157 people died.


I don't know what to make of this.


The Ethiopian CEO was on CNBC yesterday swearing up and down that it wasn't a bird strike. Then it was either a faulty sensor or was installed incorrectly somehow - which I think some have said is almost impossible.

It's all Boeing's fault as I guess there must be no birds in Ethiopia.



I dont find this CNBC report. Please provide a link or withdraw.

The Ethiopian position to now is the Preliminary Report which states that there is no evidence for bird strike. This is not surprising given the depth of the crater.The FDR however, supports FOD damage to the sensor as the most likely cause of AOA failed High and of course, bird strike is the most likely cause of FOD damage post T/O and always has done.

Your final line is crass.


Ray
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 6:54 pm

DenverTed wrote:
Question for Boeing, what range of the stabilizer was MCAS designed for? Will they now limit the range to certain angles of operation, like no neutral to nose down? If the elevator now will have 1.5g control under MCAS, what angle does that occur at on the stabilizer?

I wonder what the stall looks like in the worst case scenario, the shortest moment arm (the MAX 7), aft loaded, with the stabilizer at full nose up position, with the pilots pulling full up on the elevator until the aircraft stalls.

Suggest you look at requirements for the relevant FAR that the MAX has to comply with, MCAS is a response to a FAA mandated requirement.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 6:58 pm

StTim wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
My apologies if this has already been posted, but there is now speculation that bird strikes to the MCAS sensor might have caused the crash: https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... n-airlines

ccording to the Wall Street Journal, US aviation authorities believe a bird collision may have set off the sequence of events that led to the downing of an Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max in March, in which 157 people died.


I don't know what to make of this.


Personally what difference does this make. A bird takes out a single sensor and the plane turns into a death ride. MCAS implementation still at fault.

Boeing lawyers will play bird strike as an act of God to relieve company liability.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 7:06 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
My apologies if this has already been posted, but there is now speculation that bird strikes to the MCAS sensor might have caused the crash: https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... n-airlines



I don't know what to make of this.


The Ethiopian CEO was on CNBC yesterday swearing up and down that it wasn't a bird strike. Then it was either a faulty sensor or was installed incorrectly somehow - which I think some have said is almost impossible.

It's all Boeing's fault as I guess there must be no birds in Ethiopia.



I dont find this CNBC report. Please provide a link or withdraw.

The Ethiopian position to now is the Preliminary Report which states that there is no evidence for bird strike. This is not surprising given the depth of the crater.The FDR however, supports FOD damage to the sensor as the most likely cause of AOA failed High and of course, bird strike is the most likely cause of FOD damage post T/O and always has done.

Your final line is crass.


Ray



It's on again right now on CNBC - it was a clip from NBC Nightly news from a week ago.

I'll try and find it.

It's just his usual MO - the Pilots didn't make any mistakes - no deficiencies in training...No Bird strike - it's all Boeing's fault
 
hivue
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 7:08 pm

Off topic, but (sadly) timely and not completely irrelevant to the arguments here over Boeing's corporate attitude and responsibility toward these accidents --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E42NN1rU93o

RIP Niki.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 7:13 pm

It was from this same interview where he talks about the bird strikes - still looking for the full thing where CNBC got there clip on the No Bird strikes

In this clip though he specifically is asked "Did the pilots neglect to throttle back" and his response is "No-No they did everything right"

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/vi ... 9555909593
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 7:18 pm

par13del wrote:
Suggest you look at requirements for the relevant FAR that the MAX has to comply with, MCAS is a response to a FAA mandated requirement.


Is it required? I have not seen proof of this. Or is it just to mimic the behavior of the NG nearing stall? That is the question for Boeing and the FAA, optional, or required?
Last edited by DenverTed on Tue May 21, 2019 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DenverTed
Posts: 259
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 7:24 pm

StTim wrote:

Personally what difference does this make. A bird takes out a single sensor and the plane turns into a death ride. MCAS implementation still at fault.


Right? An AOA sensor failure for any reason should have been considered.
 
morrisond
Posts: 1371
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 7:34 pm

morrisond wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
morrisond wrote:

The Ethiopian CEO was on CNBC yesterday swearing up and down that it wasn't a bird strike. Then it was either a faulty sensor or was installed incorrectly somehow - which I think some have said is almost impossible.

It's all Boeing's fault as I guess there must be no birds in Ethiopia.



I dont find this CNBC report. Please provide a link or withdraw.

The Ethiopian position to now is the Preliminary Report which states that there is no evidence for bird strike. This is not surprising given the depth of the crater.The FDR however, supports FOD damage to the sensor as the most likely cause of AOA failed High and of course, bird strike is the most likely cause of FOD damage post T/O and always has done.

Your final line is crass.


Ray



It's on again right now on CNBC - it was a clip from NBC Nightly news from a week ago.

I'll try and find it.

It's just his usual MO - the Pilots didn't make any mistakes - no deficiencies in training...No Bird strike - it's all Boeing's fault


I can't find the clip yet - but here is a Street article talking about it the no Bird Strike insistence of the CEO

https://www.thestreet.com/investing/sto ... h-14967384

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