xmp125a
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 7:54 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Boeing did practical nothing. They did not explain how MCAS functioned. They did not give out how you recognize and train for MCAS failure mode. They did not fix the simulators so they would show how MCAS works and how it behaves with an AoA failure.
Boeing just pointed to the runaway trim procedure.
Boeing even kept quite over the non existence of the light declaring AoA disagree, pointing exactly at the situation that could produce a MCAS going amok situation. Even if this light should have been a standard feature and being described in the manual.


Apologies if this was posted here before.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... of-dangers

It documents the complaints of one of the senior 737 pilots at Ethiopian about the insufficient pilot training regarding MCAS, which is apparently well documented (all before ET crash). The article implies that ET is to blame, but the journalist probably does not have a clue that these facts are damning for Boeing... The pilot demanded 737MAX specific training, which of course, Ethiopian was unable to provide, as despite having one of the few MAX simulators in the world it actually DID NOT include MAX specific failure modes nor did Boeing provide enough info to provide MCAS related training, SPECIFICALLY how to recognize MCAS failure!
 
Amexair
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 7:56 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
With the IAS DISAGREE alert staring the captain in the face (probably more visible to him than the AOA DISAGREE would have been), if the ET crew had been more familiar with the bulletin and managed the thrust properly, that could have saved the flight.


That's still the $46 million dollar question. Nowhere on the prelim report was IAS DISAGREE alert mentioned. Therefore, we do not know or better yet safe to assume that the alert never happened, God knows for a thousand possible reasons. Let's wait for the full report shall we.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 8:03 pm

Remember the roller coaster procedure ? Clearly at some point Boeing thought it useful to explain to pilots how to manually trim if high aerodynamic forces are at play. I wonder if that will go back in the manuals.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 8:06 pm

afgeneral wrote:
planecane wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
From that post about the STS and control column in the opposite direction:
https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/614997-b-737-speed-trim-system.html#post10300036

The difference between the STS and the MCAS is how there respective code can go wrong. There are some grey area about the STS as it can potentially send dangerous stab trim command too if it goes very erratic. Satcom Guru explained that STS (and MCAS) run on a single CPU on an single side FCC in manual flight mode. Could be an another certification issue for the 737 NG and 737 MAX now that the design is reviewed in detail...


I think that STS has proven itself not to be a problem. With 7000 NGs flying around for what has to be over 50 million flights, the fact that there hasn't been an STS related crash would seem to prove that it is not a safety issue.


Do we really know that? Are there some previously unexplained crashes which may now be explained by STS? Did they review any past incidents to make sure?

I don't think there really are any unexplained NG crashes. Did you have a candidate in mind that shows symptoms that could have been a trim issue?
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 8:09 pm

Aesma wrote:
Remember the roller coaster procedure ? Clearly at some point Boeing thought it useful to explain to pilots how to manually trim if high aerodynamic forces are at play. I wonder if that will go back in the manuals.

According to a Mentour Pilot video, it is still documented in some way in the FCOM.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 8:44 pm

planecane wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Remember the roller coaster procedure ? Clearly at some point Boeing thought it useful to explain to pilots how to manually trim if high aerodynamic forces are at play. I wonder if that will go back in the manuals.

According to a Mentour Pilot video, it is still documented in some way in the FCOM.

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... tigations/
Reported here that 'roller coaster' procedures has not been in manuals since ~mid 1980s (or trained?).

Ray
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 9:11 pm

planecane wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Remember the roller coaster procedure ? Clearly at some point Boeing thought it useful to explain to pilots how to manually trim if high aerodynamic forces are at play. I wonder if that will go back in the manuals.

According to a Mentour Pilot video, it is still documented in some way in the FCOM.


I can't find it in the FCOM I have but it's a few years old -- maybe it was reinserted within the last few years but I doubt it..
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 9:41 pm

Interested wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-48461110

The author of the Boeing 737 technical guide is saying he is confident the Ethiopia plane wouldn't have crashed had the disagree light been working.

He says it would have given an earlier indication to the pilots of what they were dealing with and what they needed to do

Interestingly Boeing CEO seems to be acknowledging this in the same article. I know it's not good for boeing to admit mistakes but PERHAPS a big part of getting the planes ungrounded relies on the indicator light making a difference to pilots understanding of the situation and what to do next

So it's better for Boeing to say this would help pilots save a plane than deny it. As they can make sure it's there in the future and help get the planes ungrounded?

Accept more blame now to allow the planes to fly again and get ungrounded?

Obviously the initial response when the disagree light issue came up was to claim it would have made no difference. Seems that approach is changing now everybody is getting an understanding of what happened and what's needed to get the plane flying again?

Makes me feel a bit cynical but I think that's what may be happening here. Accept some mistakes, take a hit on Ethiopia but get the planes back in the air sooner by saying the disagree light would have made a difference.

In the MAX, is the AoA warning light installed in all aircraft delivered, but only enabled if the customer specifically purchases the feature package? In other words, are there cockpits with the warning light installed, but not operative? Is the disagree light fitted to Lion and Ethiopian MAX's?

Boeing CEO is taking the course of least resistance. Enable a feature which is already cabled and ready, to shorten the grounding.

Some posters clearly need an update from their employer or client, because they earlier claimed enabling the warning light would have made zero difference to the diagnosis or outcome. Standby for a flurry of activity, as earlier posts are edited or deleted.
 
SEU
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 10:16 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
They didn't follow any other procedure 100% - why does he assume they would have done so in this case?

"morrisond", for me, you just passed the red line of unacceptable wording about the pilots that was killed. :talktothehand:


You have only just realised this guy is deluded about the pilots?

Morrisond - take a break - the world doesnt believe the pilots caused the crash, hence they grounded the plane and didnt put it down to pilot error.
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 10:40 pm

smartplane wrote:
In the MAX, is the AoA warning light installed in all aircraft delivered, but only enabled if the customer specifically purchases the feature package? In other words, are there cockpits with the warning light installed, but not operative? Is the disagree light fitted to Lion and Ethiopian MAX's?

First it's not a warning light. The AOA DISAGREE alert is an amber alert message that pops up on the PFD (Primary Flight Display) just like the IAS DISAGREE and the ALTITUDE DISAGREE alerts.

In the 737NG it was standard. My understanding is that in the MAX only customers (very few) that bought the AOA Indicator were supposed to get it but there was a mistake by the vendor and nobody got it. After the grounding is lifted everybody will get it whether you purchase the AOA indicator or not.

smartplane wrote:
Boeing CEO is taking the course of least resistance. Enable a feature which is already cabled and ready, to shorten the grounding.


:checkmark:

smartplane wrote:
Some posters clearly need an update from their employer or client, because they earlier claimed enabling the warning light would have made zero difference to the diagnosis or outcome. Standby for a flurry of activity, as earlier posts are edited or deleted.


It wouldn't have made any difference and a 737 pilot for an airline who has written a "737 Technical Manual" he sells for $35 doesn't know for sure either. He's just trying to generate revenue.

The Lion Air captain was in control of the airplane for the most part and neglected to turn off a system that was misbehaving -- if every time you engaged the autopilot it dove for the ground would you continue to engage it? The ET crew with the benefit of the bulletin should have had an even easier time getting the airplane under control but let the airspeed get out of hand.
 
xmp125a
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 10:49 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
planecane wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Remember the roller coaster procedure ? Clearly at some point Boeing thought it useful to explain to pilots how to manually trim if high aerodynamic forces are at play. I wonder if that will go back in the manuals.

According to a Mentour Pilot video, it is still documented in some way in the FCOM.


I can't find it in the FCOM I have but it's a few years old -- maybe it was reinserted within the last few years but I doubt it..


MentourPilot stated that is not in the 737 FCOM for decades (removed in early 80s?), but it is still in other documents (AFM perhaps).
 
xmp125a
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 10:54 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
The Lion Air captain was in control of the airplane for the most part and neglected to turn off a system that was misbehaving -- if every time you engaged the autopilot it dove for the ground would you continue to engage it?


LionAir pilot did not know anything about the MCAS demon and since the simptoms were different than stab trim runaway, did not diagnose the problem correctly.

Boeing assumption was that MCAS would be recognized as stab trim runaway, and apparently it was an assumption pulled out of thin air, for the reason that was very convenient for fast an cheap certification of plane and pilots and nothing to do with the real world or safety considerations.

I hope punitive damages will be calculated accordingly.
 
xmp125a
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 11:00 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The big question for me is, if a serious safety revue is done, will that impact the NG too?


I feel that is big pandora's box. Stab trim runaway (the real one, not the fake MCAS one) is extremely rare. But if it ever does happen and one of NGs crashes with that reason after MAX review is completed and all 737 again in the air, it may literally destroy Boeing. And FAA.

It would probably be far less serious threat before 737MAX crashes, but now FAA and others started to look and dig and now anything they find and do not address is a huge future reliability.
 
AABusDrvr
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 11:07 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
First it's not a warning light. The AOA DISAGREE alert is an amber alert message that pops up on the PFD (Primary Flight Display) just like the IAS DISAGREE and the ALTITUDE DISAGREE alerts.

In the 737NG it was standard. My understanding is that in the MAX only customers (very few) that bought the AOA Indicator were supposed to get it but there was a mistake by the vendor and nobody got it. After the grounding is lifted everybody will get it whether you purchase the AOA indicator or not.


It's one of several amber messages that can present on the PFD or ND, and it's simply a comparator. If the AOA's disagree by more than 10 degrees, for more than 10 seconds the message will present. There is no master caution or aural warning, just the message on the PFD.

Image

The QRH procedure for "AOA DISAGREE":

1. Airspeed errors and the IAS DISAGREE alert may occur

2. Altimeter errors and the ALT DISAGREE alert may occur

If the lack AOA disagree message was all that stopped the crew from preforming the proper procedures, just another reason for ET to take a hard look at their training. And I'm not talking about 737 specific training, they need to go back to the beginning of their primary flight training syllabus.


SEU wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
They didn't follow any other procedure 100% - why does he assume they would have done so in this case?

"morrisond", for me, you just passed the red line of unacceptable wording about the pilots that was killed. :talktothehand:


You have only just realised this guy is deluded about the pilots?

Morrisond - take a break - the world doesnt believe the pilots caused the crash, hence they grounded the plane and didnt put it down to pilot error.


What exactly did he say that is incorrect?
 
zippy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 11:35 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
In the 737NG it was standard. My understanding is that in the MAX only customers (very few) that bought the AOA Indicator were supposed to get it but there was a mistake by the vendor and nobody got it. After the grounding is lifted everybody will get it whether you purchase the AOA indicator or not.


The "AOA DISAGREE" annunciator was intended to be standard on all 737 MAX planes. Image certified it with the FAA as such, Image documented it as such, Image sold the MAX to airlines as such. Unfortunately Boeing did exactly zero QA and the annunciator only works/worked on MAX planes with the AOA gauge option. This defect was discovered in 2017 and Image decided against disclosing it to the airlines or FAA.

The problems with the Image 737 MAX go well beyond whether MCAS actuation in error can be managed by pilots.


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-ceo ... d=68292842

Norah O'Donnell: Both of those planes took a nose dive because of that erroneous flight sensor information, and if one of the sensors is off, it's my understanding that there could be a warning light. But that light was supposed to be active on all 737 Max jets, and it was not, and you knew this in 2017 and you did not tell the FAA for 13 months. Why?

Dennis Muilenburg: The implementation of that software, we did not do it correctly. Our engineers discovered that.

Norah O'Donnell: So you're fixing that now?

Dennis Muilenburg: We are fixing it now and our communication on that was not what it should have been.

Norah O'Donnell: Does Boeing have a credibility and transparency problem if they don't admit what were the mistakes in the past?

Dennis Muilenburg: We clearly fell short and the implementation of the angle of attack disagree alert was a mistake.
 
zippy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 11:44 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
If the lack AOA disagree message was all that stopped the crew from preforming the proper procedures, just another reason for ET to take a hard look at their training. And I'm not talking about 737 specific training, they need to go back to the beginning of their primary flight training syllabus.


Perhaps Ethiopian needs to address training issues, but what kind of training will prepare you to handle deliberately incorrect and factually incorrect documentation from the manufacturer, buggy instruments, and an airframe that was built/sold with significant differences (e.g. MCAS authority) compared to the certified configuration?

Perhaps the Lion Air wreck and guidance led the Ethiopian crew to become so fixated on the "AOA DISAGREE" annunciator that they didn't even think it could be MCAS until it was too late? Something along the lines of Eastern 401. Or maybe they were just too overwhelmed with all of the bells and whistles that described the symptoms but not the problem itself. Task saturation 101.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 1:02 am

What in the world does EA 401 have to do with these two accidents? It was gear light there.

And, to repeat for the tenth time, there is NO “roller coaster” maneuver. The pilot merely relieves the load on the stab trim jackscrew by releasing enough yoke back pressure. It should be a smooth nose down maneuver, just enough to allow the trim motor to work. Where does these ideas come from?

GF
 
zippy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 1:38 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
What in the world does EA 401 have to do with these two accidents? It was gear light there.


EA 401 was an example of humans being so fixated on one thing that they fail to address the other issues at hand.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And, to repeat for the tenth time, there is NO “roller coaster” maneuver. The pilot merely relieves the load on the stab trim jackscrew by releasing enough yoke back pressure. It should be a smooth nose down maneuver, just enough to allow the trim motor to work. Where does these ideas come from?


With what spare altitude? The last sim tests that tried this maneuver showed pilots losing about 8,000 ft. Great if you're at cruising altitude, not so doable right after takeoff.
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 1:39 am

[quote="smartplane"]
In the MAX, is the AoA warning light installed in all aircraft delivered, but only enabled if the customer specifically purchases the feature package? In other words, are there cockpits with the warning light installed, but not operative? Is the disagree light fitted to Lion and Ethiopian MAX's?

there is no light. it is an icon on PFD.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 2:36 am

While going through an NG FCOM I found online to see if it had anything about the "roller coaster" procedure (it doesn't seem to, it just says "The effort required to
manually rotate the stabilizer trim wheels may be higher under certain flight conditions."), I came across another interesting statement. It says:

Manual rotation of the trim wheels can be used to override autopilot or main electric trim. The effort required to manually rotate the stabilizer trim wheels may be higher under certain flight conditions. Grasping the stabilizer trim wheel will stop stabilizer motion.


This seems to say that, in a runaway stabilizer situation, grasping the wheel will stop the runaway. It doesn't say how much force is required but it seems to imply there is an electric trim cutout tied to use of the manual wheel.

Edit:

I just found a youtube video of a pilot doing it (video from 2016) in an actual aircraft on the ground by holding the thumb switch and then grabbing the wheel to stop the trim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQirIH_DuAs
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 2:53 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
What in the world does EA 401 have to do with these two accidents? It was gear light there.

And, to repeat for the tenth time, there is NO “roller coaster” maneuver. The pilot merely relieves the load on the stab trim jackscrew by releasing enough yoke back pressure. It should be a smooth nose down maneuver, just enough to allow the trim motor to work. Where does these ideas come from?

GF

I read about this idea on Peter Lemme's site, satguru.com. I believe the 'rollercoaster' is for the trim Flinstone power method.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 2:54 am

zippy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
What in the world does EA 401 have to do with these two accidents? It was gear light there.


EA 401 was an example of humans being so fixated on one thing that they fail to address the other issues at hand.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And, to repeat for the tenth time, there is NO “roller coaster” maneuver. The pilot merely relieves the load on the stab trim jackscrew by releasing enough yoke back pressure. It should be a smooth nose down maneuver, just enough to allow the trim motor to work. Where does these ideas come from?


With what spare altitude? The last sim tests that tried this maneuver showed pilots losing about 8,000 ft. Great if you're at cruising altitude, not so doable right after takeoff.


Did I say anything about altitude?

GF
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 2:59 am

DenverTed wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
What in the world does EA 401 have to do with these two accidents? It was gear light there.

And, to repeat for the tenth time, there is NO “roller coaster” maneuver. The pilot merely relieves the load on the stab trim jackscrew by releasing enough yoke back pressure. It should be a smooth nose down maneuver, just enough to allow the trim motor to work. Where does these ideas come from?

GF

I read about this idea on Peter Lemme's site, satguru.com. I believe the 'rollercoaster' is for the trim Flinstone power method.


D.P Davies in Handling the Big Jets covered the procedure for trim motor stalling in about 1973 and Boeing instructed long before that. It’s nothing new and it’s not a roller coaster. As I stated, hold the trim switch and release the aerodynamic pressure by relaxing the stick force being applied. If you let the trim position far out of proper, it’s going take some time. Best be aggressive keeping it in trim.

GF
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 3:04 am

Another video I found from 2015 of a runaway trim in a 737 classic simulator. They cutout the electric trim quickly without really going through the checklist and then trimmed with the wheel. The interesting thing is that disengaging autothrottle and reducing thrust was done by instinct. I can't really tell how out of trim they got but they didn't do a rollercoaster procedure but they did point out the force the copilot was using to hold the column before they got back in trim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pPRuFHR1co
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 3:06 am

Not interesting at all, merely proper flying technique and understanding what’s going on. Controlling airspeed in vital to dealing with runaway stab. No need for checklist, it’s an immediate action item.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 3:11 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
zippy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
What in the world does EA 401 have to do with these two accidents? It was gear light there.


EA 401 was an example of humans being so fixated on one thing that they fail to address the other issues at hand.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And, to repeat for the tenth time, there is NO “roller coaster” maneuver. The pilot merely relieves the load on the stab trim jackscrew by releasing enough yoke back pressure. It should be a smooth nose down maneuver, just enough to allow the trim motor to work. Where does these ideas come from?


With what spare altitude? The last sim tests that tried this maneuver showed pilots losing about 8,000 ft. Great if you're at cruising altitude, not so doable right after takeoff.


Did I say anything about altitude?

GF

There is a great joke about spherical cows in vacuum. Spherical 737 in vacuum has no issues with trim as well.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 3:14 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Not interesting at all, merely proper flying technique and understanding what’s going on. Controlling airspeed in vital to dealing with runaway stab. No need for checklist, it’s an immediate action item.


Interesting from the standpoint of the people on here that seem to think taking these actions should not be expected of all pilots.
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 4:23 am

smartplane wrote:
Interested wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-48461110

The author of the Boeing 737 technical guide is saying he is confident the Ethiopia plane wouldn't have crashed had the disagree light been working.

He says it would have given an earlier indication to the pilots of what they were dealing with and what they needed to do

Interestingly Boeing CEO seems to be acknowledging this in the same article. I know it's not good for boeing to admit mistakes but PERHAPS a big part of getting the planes ungrounded relies on the indicator light making a difference to pilots understanding of the situation and what to do next

So it's better for Boeing to say this would help pilots save a plane than deny it. As they can make sure it's there in the future and help get the planes ungrounded?

Accept more blame now to allow the planes to fly again and get ungrounded?

Obviously the initial response when the disagree light issue came up was to claim it would have made no difference. Seems that approach is changing now everybody is getting an understanding of what happened and what's needed to get the plane flying again?

Makes me feel a bit cynical but I think that's what may be happening here. Accept some mistakes, take a hit on Ethiopia but get the planes back in the air sooner by saying the disagree light would have made a difference.



Some posters clearly need an update from their employer or client, because they earlier claimed enabling the warning light would have made zero difference to the diagnosis or outcome. Standby for a flurry of activity, as earlier posts are edited or deleted.


So true. They can't have it both ways.
Last edited by Interested on Fri May 31, 2019 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 4:26 am

zippy wrote:
7BOEING7 wrote:
In the 737NG it was standard. My understanding is that in the MAX only customers (very few) that bought the AOA Indicator were supposed to get it but there was a mistake by the vendor and nobody got it. After the grounding is lifted everybody will get it whether you purchase the AOA indicator or not.


The "AOA DISAGREE" annunciator was intended to be standard on all 737 MAX planes. Image certified it with the FAA as such, Image documented it as such, Image sold the MAX to airlines as such. Unfortunately Boeing did exactly zero QA and the annunciator only works/worked on MAX planes with the AOA gauge option. This defect was discovered in 2017 and Image decided against disclosing it to the airlines or FAA.

The problems with the Image 737 MAX go well beyond whether MCAS actuation in error can be managed by pilots.


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-ceo ... d=68292842

Norah O'Donnell: Both of those planes took a nose dive because of that erroneous flight sensor information, and if one of the sensors is off, it's my understanding that there could be a warning light. But that light was supposed to be active on all 737 Max jets, and it was not, and you knew this in 2017 and you did not tell the FAA for 13 months. Why?

Dennis Muilenburg: The implementation of that software, we did not do it correctly. Our engineers discovered that.

Norah O'Donnell: So you're fixing that now?

Dennis Muilenburg: We are fixing it now and our communication on that was not what it should have been.

Norah O'Donnell: Does Boeing have a credibility and transparency problem if they don't admit what were the mistakes in the past?

Dennis Muilenburg: We clearly fell short and the implementation of the angle of attack disagree alert was a mistake.


That's all in black and white from the man himself
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 4:39 am

xmp125a wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Boeing did practical nothing. They did not explain how MCAS functioned. They did not give out how you recognize and train for MCAS failure mode. They did not fix the simulators so they would show how MCAS works and how it behaves with an AoA failure.
Boeing just pointed to the runaway trim procedure.
Boeing even kept quite over the non existence of the light declaring AoA disagree, pointing exactly at the situation that could produce a MCAS going amok situation. Even if this light should have been a standard feature and being described in the manual.


Apologies if this was posted here before.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... of-dangers

It documents the complaints of one of the senior 737 pilots at Ethiopian about the insufficient pilot training regarding MCAS, which is apparently well documented (all before ET crash). The article implies that ET is to blame, but the journalist probably does not have a clue that these facts are damning for Boeing... The pilot demanded 737MAX specific training, which of course, Ethiopian was unable to provide, as despite having one of the few MAX simulators in the world it actually DID NOT include MAX specific failure modes nor did Boeing provide enough info to provide MCAS related training, SPECIFICALLY how to recognize MCAS failure!


New CNN report today suggests Boeing is NOT recommending simulator training and are proposing any training delivered before the planes are ungrounded will be iPad training

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/30/politics ... index.html
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 4:52 am

SEU wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
They didn't follow any other procedure 100% - why does he assume they would have done so in this case?

"morrisond", for me, you just passed the red line of unacceptable wording about the pilots that was killed. :talktothehand:


You have only just realised this guy is deluded about the pilots?

Morrisond - take a break - the world doesnt believe the pilots caused the crash, hence they grounded the plane and didnt put it down to pilot error.


According to the lawsuit reported in this article - the same tactics to hide design flaws and deflect blame onto the pilots have been used on previous Boeing crashes

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/21/politics ... index.html
 
Ugly51
Posts: 110
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 5:10 am

It's Boeing attempting to save money. If 737 Max simulator training is required, this is a Red Flag concerning Southwest Airlines.
Boeing will have to pay/train all Southwest Pilot's at no cost to the airline. All Southwest Pilot's should be able to fly any 737 model without any simulator training. Two words... Absolutely frightening.
 
planecane
Posts: 1041
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 5:24 am

Interested wrote:
xmp125a wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Boeing did practical nothing. They did not explain how MCAS functioned. They did not give out how you recognize and train for MCAS failure mode. They did not fix the simulators so they would show how MCAS works and how it behaves with an AoA failure.
Boeing just pointed to the runaway trim procedure.
Boeing even kept quite over the non existence of the light declaring AoA disagree, pointing exactly at the situation that could produce a MCAS going amok situation. Even if this light should have been a standard feature and being described in the manual.


Apologies if this was posted here before.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... of-dangers

It documents the complaints of one of the senior 737 pilots at Ethiopian about the insufficient pilot training regarding MCAS, which is apparently well documented (all before ET crash). The article implies that ET is to blame, but the journalist probably does not have a clue that these facts are damning for Boeing... The pilot demanded 737MAX specific training, which of course, Ethiopian was unable to provide, as despite having one of the few MAX simulators in the world it actually DID NOT include MAX specific failure modes nor did Boeing provide enough info to provide MCAS related training, SPECIFICALLY how to recognize MCAS failure!


New CNN report today suggests Boeing is NOT recommending simulator training and are proposing any training delivered before the planes are ungrounded will be iPad training

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/30/politics ... index.html

With MCAS 2.0, what exactly would simulator training be needed for? What would they be training to do? Don't approach a stall with an AoA disagree warning?

Notice that Tajer doesn't even say simulator training is needed, he just thinks the iPad course needs to be better.
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 5:36 am

I thought we all agreed that all the pilots need more manual trim wheel training?
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 5:42 am

Ugly51 wrote:
It's Boeing attempting to save money. If 737 Max simulator training is required, this is a Red Flag concerning Southwest Airlines.
Boeing will have to pay/train all Southwest Pilot's at no cost to the airline. All Southwest Pilot's should be able to fly any 737 model without any simulator training. Two words... Absolutely frightening.


I think this is about how quickly these planes can become ungrounded. As far as I've seen there aren't anywhere near enough Max simulators around the world to handle the amount of training needed. And the existing simulators airlines bought that they thought were Max simulators are all flawed!

So if Max simulator training IS deemed necessary it would severely delay these planes being ungrounded as the simulators just aren't available. Regardless of the costs involved - the simulators aren't there.
 
xmp125a
Posts: 233
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 5:49 am

ArgentoSystems wrote:
smartplane wrote:
In the MAX, is the AoA warning light installed in all aircraft delivered, but only enabled if the customer specifically purchases the feature package? In other words, are there cockpits with the warning light installed, but not operative? Is the disagree light fitted to Lion and Ethiopian MAX's?

there is no light. it is an icon on PFD.


In grandfatheringspeak, it is a light :)

(if pre-NG aircraft had that functionality it could only be a light, right?)
 
User avatar
aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 5:58 am

morrisond wrote:
Interested wrote:
morrisond wrote:

I'm not going to disagree with you on the Pilot's part in either crash .


So if you agree with the above isn't that substantial enough to stop worrying about the pilots actions and to focus on what Boeing need to do to stop pilots anywhere in the world facing a similar situation in the future

I think we all accept that huge mistakes in design and implementation and communication have been made by Boeing. The CEO has just apologised for what's happened again and acknowledged they need to regain trust etc. He's said it's going to be a gradual process.

Ive seen the head of the US pilots union saying it's inexcusable to blame the pilots for these crashes and saying shame on Boeing for do so. He's not head of the Ethiopian pilots union.

Ive just seen the guy who wrote the technical guide for Boeing 737s saying the flight would have been saved had the disagree light worked whilst the CEO of Boeing on same day accepts that was a mistake etc

Isn't that enough to just move on now and stop clutching at any kind of real blame for the pilots and just accept Boeing messed up and now lets get this sorted for future pilots and passengers

I said it weeks ago - I never want to be on a plane that ever needs these manual trim procedures using. They scare the life out of me. I can't believe they even exist in this day and age. So let's just get back to having planes that are designed so these trims are never needed. And when they are you can't die whilst pilots struggle to have to use them.

For sure Morrison if you want these guys trained to use the trim etc let's do it as well. But that's not the real issue here. The Max flawed design has led us to spend weeks analysing and dissecting the ins and outs of something we should never even need to be discussing.


Nice - taking partial quotes again and ignoring my comments about training. I have always said it's a training issue.

You better never fly on an A320 then either as it has a backup trim wheel.

The technical writer said - it might have been saved - there was a lot of hedging in his response. If they had trimmed out the out of trim with Electric before switching it off or never put up the flaps or disengaged TOGA thrust they might have been saved as well.

All the conditions the ET Pilots were were right on the front page of the FCOM update. If they had read that and understood it - there should have been no issue identifying MCAS intervention.

It's verging on off-topic, but let's not bring the A320 trim wheels into this discussion. There is no situation where the A320 trim wheels are actually mechanically controlling the trim system. The A320's stabilizer trim screwjack is operated only by two hydraulic motors. The A320's trims wheels are not connected by a cable to the screwjack, like the 737. So, there will never be a situation where the A320's wheels experience direct mechanical feedback from the stab. It is impossible. The wheels are basically a just fancy switches, and a visual reference for the pilots.

If you must bring A vs B into this, at least do it correctly.
 
xmp125a
Posts: 233
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 6:01 am

planecane wrote:
Another video I found from 2015 of a runaway trim in a 737 classic simulator. They cutout the electric trim quickly without really going through the checklist and then trimmed with the wheel. The interesting thing is that disengaging autothrottle and reducing thrust was done by instinct. I can't really tell how out of trim they got but they didn't do a rollercoaster procedure but they did point out the force the copilot was using to hold the column before they got back in trim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pPRuFHR1co


1) Classic has larger trim wheels than either NG or max.
2) The MAX simulators (curiously, what about NG ones??) did not realistically simulate forces needed to stabilize out of trim plane using the wheels. MAX simulators did not include MCAS simulation, and did not include proper resistance on trim wheel, I have difficulties believing that they somehow botched this in transition from NG to MAX, so the issue must be older than MAX.

Therefore, it is plausible that the FO on ET flight would be surprised about the resistance he encountered, even if he trained that exact situation in the simulator - his experience would be different in flight than in simulator what is probably the thing you do not want in 1000/hr simulator training!

Again, damning for Boeing.
 
xmp125a
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 6:18 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Not interesting at all, merely proper flying technique and understanding what’s going on


We are discussing this for tens of pages - the main problem is diagnosing new, either totally unknown trim failure (for LionAir) or inadequate described trim failure (ET). This I think becomes key of the problem. We all known MCAS v1.0 was botched beyond repair. We all know that it SHOULD be somehow caught by Boeing internal check, and, at least, with FAA certification. Now the third problem is clearly Boeing reliance on "they should recognize trim runaway" when in fact it looks quite different than trim runaway, and requires DIFFERENT course of action.

1) With real trim runaway, cut off electrical motors ASAP, because longer you wait, more out of trim the airplane will be.
2) With MCAS "trim runaway" DO NOT SWITCH the motors off, but use them to stabilize the plane AND THEN cut the electric motors off (this per EAD issued after LionAir, let's assume it is not vague)

Boeing essentially expected that the pilots ****MISDIAGNOSE**** MCAS malfunction as trim runaway and perform the procedure in 2) (which was not clear until EAD after LionAir crash), and not procedure 1) which could kill them due to inability to manually trim the plane when MCAS puts it extremely out of trim.

How on Earth this passed the certification and allowed the aircraft to be certified as the same type, I don't know. Heads should roll.

And that issue - that the pilots did not have adequate training RECOGNIZING MCAS error even with EAD, is precisely the gist of the complaints of senior/instructor pilot at ET before ET crash that I posted the Bloomberg link to before.

I somehow sense it will take a lot of time to get this thing back into the air.
 
xmp125a
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 6:25 am

planecane wrote:
With MCAS 2.0, what exactly would simulator training be needed for? What would they be training to do? Don't approach a stall with an AoA disagree warning?


1) Isn't the whole point of MCAS the solution of the problem where plane approaches stall, but it does not feel like it for pilot trained on NG? So apparently, if AoA disagree warning is on, there is procedure to be followed so the NG pilot is not seduced into the stall that does not feel like stall. Right?
2) Isn't the AoA disagree warning indicator the reason itself for sim training (that being the reason that Boeing was selling it as optional item, because if included in the MAX by default that would mean that sime training is needed?

Maybe the #2 is fakenews, but for a while that was official version, no?

3) Even with knowing the details, the MCAS is included in MAX with a reason. Now, if there is AoA sensor failure that reason ceases to exist or what? Why not simply put in the ipad manual the sentence "Don't approach a stall", as you suggest (I cut out the AoA disagree warning, because in absence of MCAS it would not be important any more(.
 
xmp125a
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:38 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 6:36 am

morrisond wrote:
Nice - taking partial quotes again and ignoring my comments about training. I have always said it's a training issue.


If discussing training, let's be clear on one thing.

1) NG procedures training - responsibility of the airline.
2) MAX specific training - 100% responsibility of Boeing.
3) Any divergence between the real airplanes and the simulator - 100% responsibility of Boeing.

Pilots all over the world were calling for better disclosures by Boeing and/or additional training after Lion Air crash (meeting in USA, pressure of senior pilot on ET), but "all they got was a poorly written EAD" (which still relies on the fact that pilots distinguish between real trim runaway and MCAS-induced one).
 
sgrow787
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 6:48 am

PixelFlight wrote:
(b) How single sensor input is ambiguous ?

(c) Boeing PR about fixes: "Flight control system will now compare inputs from both AOA sensors." https://www.boeing.com/commercial/737max/737-max-software-updates.page



It's too ambiguous. If they had precluded that statement with "The original flight control system was intentionally designed as a single sensor system" it's unequivocal.
 
Interested
Posts: 647
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 6:52 am

xmp125a wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Nice - taking partial quotes again and ignoring my comments about training. I have always said it's a training issue.


Being fair to you Morrison - you have been very passionate about pilots all over the world requiring better and more training throughout this debate

How do you feel about Boeing not proposing simulator training for Max ?

Does that not go against everything you want to see improve?
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 488
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 7:46 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
What in the world does EA 401 have to do with these two accidents? It was gear light there.

And, to repeat for the tenth time, there is NO “roller coaster” maneuver. The pilot merely relieves the load on the stab trim jackscrew by releasing enough yoke back pressure. It should be a smooth nose down maneuver, just enough to allow the trim motor to work. Where does these ideas come from?

GF

I read about this idea on Peter Lemme's site, satguru.com. I believe the 'rollercoaster' is for the trim Flinstone power method.


D.P Davies in Handling the Big Jets covered the procedure for trim motor stalling in about 1973 and Boeing instructed long before that. It’s nothing new and it’s not a roller coaster. As I stated, hold the trim switch and release the aerodynamic pressure by relaxing the stick force being applied. If you let the trim position far out of proper, it’s going take some time. Best be aggressive keeping it in trim.

GF

What is the problem with using an oft referred to colloquialism - 'roller coaster' - as a description of a procedure? It was used in Boeing documentation at one point as in the piece attached (facsimile of manual page).

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... tigations/


Ray
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 488
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 7:59 am

Interested wrote:
Ugly51 wrote:
It's Boeing attempting to save money. If 737 Max simulator training is required, this is a Red Flag concerning Southwest Airlines.
Boeing will have to pay/train all Southwest Pilot's at no cost to the airline. All Southwest Pilot's should be able to fly any 737 model without any simulator training. Two words... Absolutely frightening.


I think this is about how quickly these planes can become ungrounded. As far as I've seen there aren't anywhere near enough Max simulators around the world to handle the amount of training needed. And the existing simulators airlines bought that they thought were Max simulators are all flawed!

So if Max simulator training IS deemed necessary it would severely delay these planes being ungrounded as the simulators just aren't available. Regardless of the costs involved - the simulators aren't there.

Ethiopian have one. Southwest could sub-contract pilot training to them! :duck:
 
uta999
Posts: 703
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 9:02 am

I believe there is now a 50/50 chance that this will be a long process. If this grounding were to drag on for a year till March 2020, that would leave 800-900 MAX's in need of mods/software, plus training/simulator time. This makes returning that many back to service so much harder.
Your computer just got better
 
Interested
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 9:15 am

XRAYretired wrote:
Interested wrote:
Ugly51 wrote:
It's Boeing attempting to save money. If 737 Max simulator training is required, this is a Red Flag concerning Southwest Airlines.
Boeing will have to pay/train all Southwest Pilot's at no cost to the airline. All Southwest Pilot's should be able to fly any 737 model without any simulator training. Two words... Absolutely frightening.


I think this is about how quickly these planes can become ungrounded. As far as I've seen there aren't anywhere near enough Max simulators around the world to handle the amount of training needed. And the existing simulators airlines bought that they thought were Max simulators are all flawed!

So if Max simulator training IS deemed necessary it would severely delay these planes being ungrounded as the simulators just aren't available. Regardless of the costs involved - the simulators aren't there.

Ethiopian have one. Southwest could sub-contract pilot training to them! :duck:


If only the one they had could replicate MCAS
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8363
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 9:27 am

Interested wrote:
Ugly51 wrote:
It's Boeing attempting to save money. If 737 Max simulator training is required, this is a Red Flag concerning Southwest Airlines.
Boeing will have to pay/train all Southwest Pilot's at no cost to the airline. All Southwest Pilot's should be able to fly any 737 model without any simulator training. Two words... Absolutely frightening.


I think this is about how quickly these planes can become ungrounded. As far as I've seen there aren't anywhere near enough Max simulators around the world to handle the amount of training needed. And the existing simulators airlines bought that they thought were Max simulators are all flawed!

So if Max simulator training IS deemed necessary it would severely delay these planes being ungrounded as the simulators just aren't available. Regardless of the costs involved - the simulators aren't there.


Airlines that take their pilot training serious, like Ethiopian or Icelandair, do have simulators. Airlines requesting minimal training from NG to MAX, do not have them. There was enough time for big USA airlines to buy some MAX simulators. Perhaps Boeing told them, that they were useless.

:sarcastic: :sarcastic:
 
smartplane
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 11:00 am

Interested wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
Interested wrote:

I think this is about how quickly these planes can become ungrounded. As far as I've seen there aren't anywhere near enough Max simulators around the world to handle the amount of training needed. And the existing simulators airlines bought that they thought were Max simulators are all flawed!

So if Max simulator training IS deemed necessary it would severely delay these planes being ungrounded as the simulators just aren't available. Regardless of the costs involved - the simulators aren't there.

Ethiopian have one. Southwest could sub-contract pilot training to them! :duck:


If only the one they had could replicate MCAS

And trim wheel loads, and.................
 
smartplane
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 11:04 am

xmp125a wrote:
ArgentoSystems wrote:
smartplane wrote:
In the MAX, is the AoA warning light installed in all aircraft delivered, but only enabled if the customer specifically purchases the feature package? In other words, are there cockpits with the warning light installed, but not operative? Is the disagree light fitted to Lion and Ethiopian MAX's?

there is no light. it is an icon on PFD.


In grandfatheringspeak, it is a light :)

(if pre-NG aircraft had that functionality it could only be a light, right?)

Thank you xmp. A symbol illuminates / icon is displayed / lights up.

Why didn't Boeing disclose the inoperative icon display if known since 2017?

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