cat3land
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:42 pm

@ TTailed :

You might be right. But all the polls seem to say the contrary....
Both the Max and its manufacturer will have taken such an unprecedenting beating, that
people will not forget when checking in..... If the polls are right the passengers will hammer the last nail on a coffin.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:57 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
bgm wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
My goodness at the ignorance going on in this thread. I only check it every few weeks to see if there is any factual news. If it doesn't have a cite, I won't believe it. None of you have the privilege of knowing Boeing's up to date financial stats nor do any of you know the FAA timeline for putting the Max back in the sky. And the ones gleefully hoping for more bad news or another crash are sickening.


Are you out of your mind? Who on this thread is hoping for another 737 to crash?!


Uh several people have said the airlines without the Max should brag and advertise that they don't operate it. It may have been deleted by now but someone had posted that they hoped a Max crashed in the US.

I've read every post on this thread. Not even the most rabid of posters has stooped so low that I can remember. For someone who uses the words 'fact' and 'cite' you have failed abysmally. Rabble rousing is just a distraction.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:16 pm

Revelation wrote:
I'd love to know more about this, in particular the timing of when such people were pulled in relative to various statements made by the CEO.

I'd love to know if the current strategy of admitting only the smallest flaw (we put too much workload on the pilots, etc) is something endorsed by these outside brand management and crisis management resources, or something those resources are working hard to change.


Very good questions, Revelation.
 
AngelsDecay
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:30 pm

Hi, i recognize this is a very delicate question, and of course its something that i would never, ever, wish to happen...but here it goes...in the event of an extreme and super bad worst scenario is there any remote chance that the MAX would never fly again and grounded forever as we know it?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:43 pm

Boeing and the FAA need to convince other agencies. If they don't manage to do it, and the FAA clears the plane, while it can't fly in most other countries, I can see a big problem, with public pressure in the US to ground it again.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:57 pm

'Smith, chief financial officer and executive vice president for strategy, said Boeing has turned over to the regulators its software fix for the 737 MAX flight-control system, as well as recommendations for additional pilot training and is now answering detailed technical questions from all corners of the globe every day.
"We've completed the software and training and passed that over," Smith said. "Now we've got regulators from around the world coming in with more questions before we go to the next milestone."'
https://www.aviationpros.com/home/news/ ... regulators

Ray
 
MrBretz
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:06 pm

Do any of you remember the DC-10 grounding? The plane was nicknamed the Death Star. I avoided it for a while. Then, when none crashed, I gladly got back on. If the problem is fixed, the same will happen here. And I think it will be fixed. I have no sources to quote. These are my feelings for what they are worth.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:24 pm

cat3land wrote:
@ TTailed :

You might be right. But all the polls seem to say the contrary....
Both the Max and its manufacturer will have taken such an unprecedenting beating, that
people will not forget when checking in..... If the polls are right the passengers will hammer the last nail on a coffin.

The problem is that the polls start with educating the respondent of the model and possibly that it has been involved in two deadly crashes.

The only way for a poll to really get any sort of predictive response would be to start with an open question:

If you book a flight within the next 12 months, are there any aircraft models you would specifically avoid booking a flight on?

If the answer is yes, then the follow up is an open response of which model or models they would avoid. If they don't answer "yes" to the first and say something that sounds similar to a 737MAX to the second then they are highly unlikely to avoid the max.

If you ask the same person:

"You may be aware that a design flaw in the Boeing 737MAX airplane has contributed to two recent deadly crashes and the model has been grounded. After the fix is approved by regulators and the grounding is lifted, would you avoid flying on the 737MAX for any period of time?"

then you are likely to get a huge percentage to say they will avoid it. My guess would be that the poll questions are closer to the second example.
 
JibberJim
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:33 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
'Smith, chief financial officer and executive vice president for strategy, said Boeing has turned over to the regulators its software fix for the 737 MAX flight-control system, as well as recommendations for additional pilot training and is now answering detailed technical questions from all corners of the globe every day.
"We've completed the software and training and passed that over," Smith said. "Now we've got regulators from around the world coming in with more questions before we go to the next milestone."'
https://www.aviationpros.com/home/news/ ... regulators


That is no different to what they said they were doing in the press release of three weeks ago:
https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130434

So they're no further forward and nothing has changed since?
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:46 pm

JibberJim wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
'Smith, chief financial officer and executive vice president for strategy, said Boeing has turned over to the regulators its software fix for the 737 MAX flight-control system, as well as recommendations for additional pilot training and is now answering detailed technical questions from all corners of the globe every day.
"We've completed the software and training and passed that over," Smith said. "Now we've got regulators from around the world coming in with more questions before we go to the next milestone."'
https://www.aviationpros.com/home/news/ ... regulators


That is no different to what they said they were doing in the press release of three weeks ago:
https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130434

So they're no further forward and nothing has changed since?


Three weeks ago they were still providing answers to the FAA and hadn’t turned the final answer over—I believe now they have the way I read the latest PR.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:01 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
People still fly with airlines that have crashed planes and killed far more people than the two Max crashes. And we don't even know what the breakdown of the blame will be yet.

We are in a different era. Social media and the ability to recall, have changed perceptions.

A couple of decades ago, an aircraft OEM wouldn't have hired two crisis management PR companies, who in turn wouldn't have bothered to monitor and contribute on social media sites.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:09 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
If people would stick to the facts it would be fine. But so many are speculating and act as if they are speaking the truth. You do not know the intentions of the FAA, NTSB, or Boeing's management team. There is no one evil at the Boeing company and making them sound like some supervillain in a movie is just ridiculous.

But Boeing Guy, supposedly a Boeing employee, who never worked on the MAX project, seems to identify a Boeing supervillain in the 'grandfathering too far' thread.
Any thoughts?
Last edited by smartplane on Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:16 pm

bgm wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
My goodness at the ignorance going on in this thread. I only check it every few weeks to see if there is any factual news. If it doesn't have a cite, I won't believe it. None of you have the privilege of knowing Boeing's up to date financial stats nor do any of you know the FAA timeline for putting the Max back in the sky. And the ones gleefully hoping for more bad news or another crash are sickening.


Are you out of your mind? Who on this thread is hoping for another 737 to crash?!


It's the opposite really. Those really anti the plane would prefer they retire it and start again
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:19 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
cat3land wrote:
Something strikes me : Everybody seems to be focusing on what Civil Aviation Authorities, worldwide, will decide to allow the MAX to return into service.
But this is not AT ALL the case . The people who will decide MAX's fate, are the Public and the Passengers. If a majority of them refuse to fly on a MAX, it will be the end of this aircraft. Passengers won't forget the 346 dead people as soon and easily
as the Aerospace industry believes.


No, people are not that dramatic. Lots of cars have had issues that killed many people but didn't stop people from continuing to buy or ride in them. Everyone was fine flying on the Max in the US and Canada up until the grounding and they had been grounded throughout the rest of the world for some time already. People still fly with airlines that have crashed planes and killed far more people than the two Max crashes. And we don't even know what the breakdown of the blame will be yet.


You realise replies like yours are what fuel the anti boeing sentiment on here

You come on to defend but you just create negative reaction

You do Boeing more damage than good
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:23 pm

AngelsDecay wrote:
Hi, i recognize this is a very delicate question, and of course its something that i would never, ever, wish to happen...but here it goes...in the event of an extreme and super bad worst scenario is there any remote chance that the MAX would never fly again and grounded forever as we know it?


I think it's too important a plane to the entire industry for that to happen

But at the same time if there was another crash related in any way to the design and then it will never fly again after that I'm sure

Boeing have to get this right. They can't fudge this
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:24 pm

smartplane wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
People still fly with airlines that have crashed planes and killed far more people than the two Max crashes. And we don't even know what the breakdown of the blame will be yet.

We are in a different era. Social media and the ability to recall, have changed perceptions.

A couple of decades ago, an aircraft OEM wouldn't have hired two crisis management PR companies, who in turn wouldn't have bothered to monitor and contribute on social media sites.

You really think the MAX will trend on social media for weeks or months on end? I'd bet a day AT MOST.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:29 pm

Interested wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
cat3land wrote:
Something strikes me : Everybody seems to be focusing on what Civil Aviation Authorities, worldwide, will decide to allow the MAX to return into service.
But this is not AT ALL the case . The people who will decide MAX's fate, are the Public and the Passengers. If a majority of them refuse to fly on a MAX, it will be the end of this aircraft. Passengers won't forget the 346 dead people as soon and easily
as the Aerospace industry believes.


No, people are not that dramatic. Lots of cars have had issues that killed many people but didn't stop people from continuing to buy or ride in them. Everyone was fine flying on the Max in the US and Canada up until the grounding and they had been grounded throughout the rest of the world for some time already. People still fly with airlines that have crashed planes and killed far more people than the two Max crashes. And we don't even know what the breakdown of the blame will be yet.


You realise replies like yours are what fuel the anti boeing sentiment on here

You come on to defend but you just create negative reaction

You do Boeing more damage than good


Professionals are able to have civil conversations even if they disagree. And there seem to be very few professionals in this thread. Just a lot of name calling and empty words being thrown around.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:57 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
ZKCIF wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
My goodness at the ignorance going on in this thread. I only check it every few weeks to see if there is any factual news. If it doesn't have a cite, I won't believe it. None of you have the privilege of knowing Boeing's up to date financial stats nor do any of you know the FAA timeline for putting the Max back in the sky. And the ones gleefully hoping for more bad news or another crash are sickening.


Please give quotes for your statement that somebody is craving for a crash. Administrators will hopefully take action.
What more citing do we need for the discussed FACTS that:
1) 737 MAX is not flying currently?
2) 737 MAX had at least one major issue?
3) When (at the moment) you are investing into new parts but do not get revenue from delivered goods, your balance is shrinking? (The 120 MAXes currently parked and waiting for delivery are eating up Boeing's cash. Of course, they will get delivered, but what about the CURRENT cash?)
4) Boeing's PR has been botched?
5) Boeing's reputation has been damaged?

Feel free not to answer. Your silence may tell more than words.

Respectfully,
ZK-CIF

BTW, such threads help some users mature. So at least they serve educational purpose.


If people would stick to the facts it would be fine. But so many are speculating and act as if they are speaking the truth. You do not know the intentions of the FAA, NTSB, or Boeing's management team. There is no one evil at the Boeing company and making them sound like some supervillain in a movie is just ridiculous.
Much of the speculation has been about how this all happened. As time had passed the details have been revealed and are quite disturbing. There has been a spectacular failure of internal systems which can ultimately be put down to a failure in the workplace culture created by senior management.
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:36 am

AngelsDecay wrote:
Hi, i recognize this is a very delicate question, and of course its something that i would never, ever, wish to happen...but here it goes...in the event of an extreme and super bad worst scenario is there any remote chance that the MAX would never fly again and grounded forever as we know it?


Personally I think it is a definite possibility. I think Boeing through a series of SNAFUs designed themselves into a corner from which there is no exit. Now, when I say never, I mean for a considerably long time, say, 2-3 years. I see it is possible that they will undertake a substantial redesign that eventually will enable the airplanes back into air.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:09 am

ArgentoSystems wrote:
Personally I think it is a definite possibility. I think Boeing through a series of SNAFUs designed themselves into a corner from which there is no exit. Now, when I say never, I mean for a considerably long time, say, 2-3 years. I see it is possible that they will undertake a substantial redesign that eventually will enable the airplanes back into air.


I agree. And if it's going to be 2-3 years, that's going to be a real problem world-wide, because Airbus doesn't have the capacity to double it's A320-NEO output and it would take them 2-3 years to do that.

And with Boeing Commercial having only one truly profitable program (the 777), it could lead to some serious financial problems at Boeing. Not to mention, I think any sane airline CEO will have a long and hard think about buying new types from Boeing anytime soon. Even if and when the 73M does make it back in the air, will anyone who hasn't already bought it want to?

This isn't 2008 when Boeing still had the 737-NG cranking out and was only having trouble delivering a completely new type that nobody had ever flown before (the 787). This is 2019 when airlines have been flying 737s for decades and they need more of them.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
sillystrings
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:49 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Interested wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

No, people are not that dramatic. Lots of cars have had issues that killed many people but didn't stop people from continuing to buy or ride in them. Everyone was fine flying on the Max in the US and Canada up until the grounding and they had been grounded throughout the rest of the world for some time already. People still fly with airlines that have crashed planes and killed far more people than the two Max crashes. And we don't even know what the breakdown of the blame will be yet.


You realise replies like yours are what fuel the anti boeing sentiment on here

You come on to defend but you just create negative reaction

You do Boeing more damage than good


Professionals are able to have civil conversations even if they disagree. And there seem to be very few professionals in this thread. Just a lot of name calling and empty words being thrown around.


I can't believe my own eyes. Did you write this expecting no one to call you out on this this? Are you self-aware at least a tiny bit? WOW...
 
ClubCX
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:09 am

DocLightning wrote:
ArgentoSystems wrote:
This is 2019 when airlines have been flying 737s for decades and they need more of them.

This is where Embraer and Bombardier should have made inroads and given airlines four competing manufacturers to choose from.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:15 am

ClubCX wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
ArgentoSystems wrote:
This is 2019 when airlines have been flying 737s for decades and they need more of them.

This is where Embraer and Bombardier should have made inroads and given airlines four competing manufacturers to choose from.


Unlikely now that Embraer is tying up with Boeing and Bombardier is tied up with Airbus.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Ugly51
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:29 am

Does anyone know if Boeings Test Pilot's have flown the exact same Flight conditions and aircraft configuration in the simulator that occurred on both the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines. And what was the results?
 
Ugly51
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:31 am

Does anyone know if Boeings Test Pilot's have flown the exact same Flight conditions and aircraft configuration in the simulator that occurred on both the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines. And what was the results?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:32 am

smartplane wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If people would stick to the facts it would be fine. But so many are speculating and act as if they are speaking the truth. You do not know the intentions of the FAA, NTSB, or Boeing's management team. There is no one evil at the Boeing company and making them sound like some supervillain in a movie is just ridiculous.

But Boeing Guy, supposedly a Boeing employee, who never worked on the MAX project, seems to identify a Boeing supervillain in the 'grandfathering too far' thread.
Any thoughts?


Are you sure your aren't just projecting your own ideas onto another member? I've seen no claims that a Boeing employee(s) had malicious intentions to endanger anyone.

This forum needs a dedicated anti-fan fiction board because those of you saying the Max will never fly again is nothing but a fantasy.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:48 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
smartplane wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If people would stick to the facts it would be fine. But so many are speculating and act as if they are speaking the truth. You do not know the intentions of the FAA, NTSB, or Boeing's management team. There is no one evil at the Boeing company and making them sound like some supervillain in a movie is just ridiculous.

But Boeing Guy, supposedly a Boeing employee, who never worked on the MAX project, seems to identify a Boeing supervillain in the 'grandfathering too far' thread.
Any thoughts?


Are you sure your aren't just projecting your own ideas onto another member? I've seen no claims that a Boeing employee(s) had malicious intentions to endanger anyone.

This forum needs a dedicated anti-fan fiction board because those of you saying the Max will never fly again is nothing but a fantasy.

Just to put "professional" into perspective:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If the investigations conclude that Boeing didn't build a deathtrap and they are not the primary reason for the crashes, then I believe the FAA must punish these entities somehow. The airlines and nations that grounded the 737Max and made dubious claims should have their landing and overflight rights to the US suspended for no less than one year. Any slots held at airports will be revoked and sold to the next qualified highest bidder. These entities need to understand that are consequences for unfounded actions and not waiting for the results of an investigation.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1417651
 
kayik
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:24 am

Ugly51 wrote:
Does anyone know if Boeings Test Pilot's have flown the exact same Flight conditions and aircraft configuration in the simulator that occurred on both the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines. And what was the results?


Why not any pilot, but Boeing test pilots? If Boeing test pilots, why a simulator rather than an actual test flight? If Boing test pilots have flown the exact same Flight conditions and aircraft configuration in the simulator, the result would be "they are still alive".
 
SEU
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:28 am

Ugly51 wrote:
Does anyone know if Boeings Test Pilot's have flown the exact same Flight conditions and aircraft configuration in the simulator that occurred on both the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines. And what was the results?


Theyve had 737 pilots do it and it was not a pretty sight apparently. Something like 50% of the time. Its not that it wasnt unsavable, its more the time frame to save it. Ill find links later.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:44 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
smartplane wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If people would stick to the facts it would be fine. But so many are speculating and act as if they are speaking the truth. You do not know the intentions of the FAA, NTSB, or Boeing's management team. There is no one evil at the Boeing company and making them sound like some supervillain in a movie is just ridiculous.

But Boeing Guy, supposedly a Boeing employee, who never worked on the MAX project, seems to identify a Boeing supervillain in the 'grandfathering too far' thread.
Any thoughts?


Are you sure your aren't just projecting your own ideas onto another member? I've seen no claims that a Boeing employee(s) had malicious intentions to endanger anyone.

This forum needs a dedicated anti-fan fiction board because those of you saying the Max will never fly again is nothing but a fantasy.

Please attribute accurately.

A supposed Boeing employee is vilifying an ex-Boeing employee, not me.

Neither have I said the MAX won't fly again commercially.

When you make up stuff, it reduces your credibility.
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:23 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Interested wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

No, people are not that dramatic. Lots of cars have had issues that killed many people but didn't stop people from continuing to buy or ride in them. Everyone was fine flying on the Max in the US and Canada up until the grounding and they had been grounded throughout the rest of the world for some time already. People still fly with airlines that have crashed planes and killed far more people than the two Max crashes. And we don't even know what the breakdown of the blame will be yet.


You realise replies like yours are what fuel the anti boeing sentiment on here

You come on to defend but you just create negative reaction

You do Boeing more damage than good


Professionals are able to have civil conversations even if they disagree. And there seem to be very few professionals in this thread. Just a lot of name calling and empty words being thrown around.


Professionals dont talk about people dying (in cars or planes) so matter of factly

They would world things far differently

Boeing PR would cringe when they read your posts (well the ones who know how to earn trust back would anyway)
 
IADFCO
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:38 am

For me the big unknown is the post-stall behavior of the wing--there is zero factual information about that. When the aerodynamic effects of the nacelle started being discussed I thought: why didn't they try to stall the nacelle before MCAS had to kick in? You could do it with fixed or active spoilers. If the recent NYT article is correct, they did try that, not surprisingly, but it didn't work. Add the need to extend the MCAS action to lower speed and straight flight conditions; the underestimation of the amount of stabilizer required, evidenced by the flight test; and the repeated activation of MCAS 1.0; (BTW, all based on what has appeared in the press, like Dominic Gates's and the NYT articles, not hard engineering data) and one wonders whether the stick feel at high AoA is only part of the picture, and there is a much bigger issue such as really bad stall recovery characteristics of the wing with that big nacelle so high messing up flow reattachment.

So it's puzzling that MCAS 2.0 will deactivate itself after one input, if the angle of attack does not fall below the activation threshold. I am an engineer, not a pilot, but I can envision a situation where an emergency maneuver to avoid traffic could lead to something like a wind up turn with increasing angle of attack, which would lose MCAS protection after one activation. Even if the MAX flight control system is not fully FBW in the modern sense of the term, it should not be a problem to implement envelope protection for these maneuvers, and keep it reliable with suitable software and hardware redundancy. But then why deactivate it when you might need it most?

Fortunately, it should be easy to check whether this is an actual problem or not. A level turn with increasing AoA should not increase flight test time by more than a couple of minutes, and if they have just a few more I would continue the turn through stall and recovery. I hope that the FAA or some non-US certification authority tries it.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:51 am

kalvado wrote:
Just to put "professional" into perspective:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If the investigations conclude that Boeing didn't build a deathtrap and they are not the primary reason for the crashes, then I believe the FAA must punish these entities somehow. The airlines and nations that grounded the 737Max and made dubious claims should have their landing and overflight rights to the US suspended for no less than one year. Any slots held at airports will be revoked and sold to the next qualified highest bidder. These entities need to understand that are consequences for unfounded actions and not waiting for the results of an investigation.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1417651


I'd forgotten that little gem. :lol:

Professionals don't talk about accident investigations like this, either:
TTailedTiger wrote:
And we don't even know what the breakdown of the blame will be yet.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:02 am

scbriml wrote:
Professionals don't talk about accident investigations like this, either:
TTailedTiger wrote:
And we don't even know what the breakdown of the blame will be yet.


That is a completely accurate statement. We do not know what the breakdown of the blame will be. And I made no assumptions of what that breakdown will be.
 
Ertro
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:31 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
People still fly with airlines that have crashed planes and killed far more people than the two Max crashes.


One more issue in a way you talk. I haven't seen anybody say in any of these threads that Boeing have killed anybody, but here you talk about airlines that have killed people. Not good. I guess you are not going to like if somebody starts talking about Boeing killing people in similar way as you talk about airlines killing people.
 
Ertro
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:33 am

Also I would like to point out that if anybody rules out the possibility of MAX not flying again must not be in any way involved in approval process of the plane. Approval process must entertain the possibility of keeping the plane grounded forever if there are findings that support such action.

Anybody who does not think the grounding to be permanent should talk about this issue saying that there are not going to be factual reasons for the grounding be permanent instead of saying that the plane is 100% going to fly again or even worse starting to blame somebody of mentioning the possibility of grounding to be forever.

Without accepting the theoretical possibility of grounding be forever that means that that person or company is advocating to let the plane fly again no matter how much of a deathtrap it is or isn't. Some plane manufacturers might have that attitude but it should not be the attitude of anybody involved in approval process of any plane.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:37 am

Ertro wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
People still fly with airlines that have crashed planes and killed far more people than the two Max crashes.


One more issue in a way you talk. I haven't seen anybody say in any of these threads that Boeing have killed anybody, but here you talk about airlines that have killed people. Not good. I guess you are not going to like if somebody starts talking about Boeing killing people in similar way as you talk about airlines killing people.


If his Boeing defence is built on the premise that other killed more people than Boeing did with the Max and therefore the Max is less bad, then he seems to be in line with the Boeing CEO. They make a safe plane even safer. I would like to know what the internal definition of "a safe plane" is in Boeing jargon.
 
Some1Somewhere
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:41 am

kalvado wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
smartplane wrote:
But Boeing Guy, supposedly a Boeing employee, who never worked on the MAX project, seems to identify a Boeing supervillain in the 'grandfathering too far' thread.
Any thoughts?


Are you sure your aren't just projecting your own ideas onto another member? I've seen no claims that a Boeing employee(s) had malicious intentions to endanger anyone.

This forum needs a dedicated anti-fan fiction board because those of you saying the Max will never fly again is nothing but a fantasy.

Just to put "professional" into perspective:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If the investigations conclude that Boeing didn't build a deathtrap and they are not the primary reason for the crashes, then I believe the FAA must punish these entities somehow. The airlines and nations that grounded the 737Max and made dubious claims should have their landing and overflight rights to the US suspended for no less than one year. Any slots held at airports will be revoked and sold to the next qualified highest bidder. These entities need to understand that are consequences for unfounded actions and not waiting for the results of an investigation.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1417651


Based on 'better safe than sorry', one could easily argue the reverse (at least, if the original was in any way sensible or proportionate...).

What do we do if the investigation comes out and says that, shortly after the first incident, there were clear signs the plane was unsafe and revised/republished procedures inadequate? That it should have been grounded immediately pending the results of the full investigation, preventing the second incident?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:01 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Professionals don't talk about accident investigations like this, either:
TTailedTiger wrote:
And we don't even know what the breakdown of the blame will be yet.


That is a completely accurate statement.


It's completely inaccurate because the purpose of an accident investigation is to find out exactly what happened, report the facts and to make recommendations to prevent the same thing happening again.

"Blame" doesn't come into it - that's your unprofessional word and interpretation.
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cskok8
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:43 pm

Ugly51 wrote:
Does anyone know if Boeings Test Pilot's have flown the exact same Flight conditions and aircraft configuration in the simulator that occurred on both the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines. And what was the results?


Does any simulator behave the same way as the real aircraft in the circumstances of the 2 crashes?
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:47 pm

Some1Somewhere wrote:
kalvado wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Are you sure your aren't just projecting your own ideas onto another member? I've seen no claims that a Boeing employee(s) had malicious intentions to endanger anyone.

This forum needs a dedicated anti-fan fiction board because those of you saying the Max will never fly again is nothing but a fantasy.

Just to put "professional" into perspective:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If the investigations conclude that Boeing didn't build a deathtrap and they are not the primary reason for the crashes, then I believe the FAA must punish these entities somehow. The airlines and nations that grounded the 737Max and made dubious claims should have their landing and overflight rights to the US suspended for no less than one year. Any slots held at airports will be revoked and sold to the next qualified highest bidder. These entities need to understand that are consequences for unfounded actions and not waiting for the results of an investigation.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1417651


Based on 'better safe than sorry', one could easily argue the reverse (at least, if the original was in any way sensible or proportionate...).

What do we do if the investigation comes out and says that, shortly after the first incident, there were clear signs the plane was unsafe and revised/republished procedures inadequate? That it should have been grounded immediately pending the results of the full investigation, preventing the second incident?


If it turns out the interpretation of the preliminary report is right and they didn't follow the new procedures accurately then you don't have a point.

You would have to have had a crash where they put the plane in trim then hit the cut-offs and controlled the airspeed properly and they still crashed to start to think the procedures weren't good enough. However as numerous MAX pilots have demonstrated with the previous Lionair flight to the crash being a primary example - the MAX is quite controllable with the Manual trim wheel assuming the plane is close to in-trim and/or not over speed before you start using it.

If the plane still crashed after following the procedures in the back of the ET Pre-lim report and they still crashed - that's total pilot error. They should have known those two pages cold, and had them on hand in the cockpit.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:53 pm

DocLightning wrote:
ArgentoSystems wrote:
Personally I think it is a definite possibility. I think Boeing through a series of SNAFUs designed themselves into a corner from which there is no exit. Now, when I say never, I mean for a considerably long time, say, 2-3 years. I see it is possible that they will undertake a substantial redesign that eventually will enable the airplanes back into air.


I agree. And if it's going to be 2-3 years, that's going to be a real problem world-wide, because Airbus doesn't have the capacity to double it's A320-NEO output and it would take them 2-3 years to do that.

And with Boeing Commercial having only one truly profitable program (the 777), it could lead to some serious financial problems at Boeing. Not to mention, I think any sane airline CEO will have a long and hard think about buying new types from Boeing anytime soon. Even if and when the 73M does make it back in the air, will anyone who hasn't already bought it want to?

This isn't 2008 when Boeing still had the 737-NG cranking out and was only having trouble delivering a completely new type that nobody had ever flown before (the 787). This is 2019 when airlines have been flying 737s for decades and they need more of them.


They make tons of cash on the 787 program, then there are parts and Services and Boeing defense and they could always continue production of the NG to bridge the gap. The 767 Program is probably cash flow positive as well - the Tanker Costs are already sunk and written off.

It's not as bad as you think even if it's 2-3 years.
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:14 pm

Ertro wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
People still fly with airlines that have crashed planes and killed far more people than the two Max crashes.


One more issue in a way you talk. I haven't seen anybody say in any of these threads that Boeing have killed anybody, but here you talk about airlines that have killed people. Not good. I guess you are not going to like if somebody starts talking about Boeing killing people in similar way as you talk about airlines killing people.


Then you've missed the replies that say Boeing caused the MAX to be a "Death Trap".

Reply #1952 from this thread:

"Blame is 100% Boeing.

Training is a 100% Boeing problem too. There is no MCAS procedure you can train. Boeing assumed that pilots would use the runaway trim procedure, that is a deathtrap by itself.

The MAX simulators, Ethiopian has one, were sabotaged by Boeing, to be able to keep hiding MCAS, from operators and pilots.

Plain speaking, Boeing produced a deathtrap. You do not design a frame that puts passengers and crew completely unnecessary into danger."

Reply #2149 from this thread:

"If Boeing would have done its design right and not produced a deathtrap for pilots and passengers, none of the two accidents would have happened."

Over the top language has been the hallmark rather the exception for this thread.
Last edited by OldAeroGuy on Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Ugly51
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:19 pm

morrisond wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
ArgentoSystems wrote:
Personally I think it is a definite possibility. I think Boeing through a series of SNAFUs designed themselves into a corner from which there is no exit. Now, when I say never, I mean for a considerably long time, say, 2-3 years. I see it is possible that they will undertake a substantial redesign that eventually will enable the airplanes back into air.


I agree. And if it's going to be 2-3 years, that's going to be a real problem world-wide, because Airbus doesn't have the capacity to double it's A320-NEO output and it would take them 2-3 years to do that.

And with Boeing Commercial having only one truly profitable program (the 777), it could lead to some serious financial problems at Boeing. Not to mention, I think any sane airline CEO will have a long and hard think about buying new types from Boeing anytime soon. Even if and when the 73M does make it back in the air, will anyone who hasn't already bought it want to?

This isn't 2008 when Boeing still had the 737-NG cranking out and was only having trouble delivering a completely new type that nobody had ever flown before (the 787). This is 2019 when airlines have been flying 737s for decades and they need more of them.


They make tons of cash on the 787 program, then there are parts and Services and Boeing defense and they could always continue production of the NG to bridge the gap. The 767 Program is probably cash flow positive as well - the Tanker Costs are already sunk and written off.

It's not as bad as you think even if it's 2-3 years.


Really, Boeing are in trouble. I am thinking possibly January 2020 before the 737 Max all models get a worldwide Airworthiness certificate.
 
Jamie514
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:37 pm

morrisond wrote:
Some1Somewhere wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Just to put "professional" into perspective:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1417651


Based on 'better safe than sorry', one could easily argue the reverse (at least, if the original was in any way sensible or proportionate...).

What do we do if the investigation comes out and says that, shortly after the first incident, there were clear signs the plane was unsafe and revised/republished procedures inadequate? That it should have been grounded immediately pending the results of the full investigation, preventing the second incident?


If it turns out the interpretation of the preliminary report is right and they didn't follow the new procedures accurately then you don't have a point.

You would have to have had a crash where they put the plane in trim then hit the cut-offs and controlled the airspeed properly and they still crashed to start to think the procedures weren't good enough. However as numerous MAX pilots have demonstrated with the previous Lionair flight to the crash being a primary example - the MAX is quite controllable with the Manual trim wheel assuming the plane is close to in-trim and/or not over speed before you start using it.

If the plane still crashed after following the procedures in the back of the ET Pre-lim report and they still crashed - that's total pilot error. They should have known those two pages cold, and had them on hand in the cockpit.



You have spent the entirety of the thread proving how easily triggered you are by such statements.

We know you think ET can't teach their crews a simple handout. You've made the same post about 500 times. So I will respond the same way again too. ET's procedural failure rates aren't higher than American carriers like AA, Southwest or Delta who can't land in places like California, Illinois or New York without writing off airframes. Where is your outrage for the training failure that causes WN to be repeatedly unable to keep planes of passengers intact and on the tarmac???

Its just as equally possible, if you'd read every post without your obvious terrible confirmation bias, that the Boeing procedure was lacking. Others have said subsequent attempts in sim had 50% success rate.

You've yet to address that, or the recent published NYT allegations that have blatantly contradicted your early explanations of MCAS; being described by credible news outlets as both anti-stall and operating in a much wider portion of the envelope than you wanted us to believe.

This quality of this thread doesn't benefit from knee jerk pro-Boeing trolls that make the same low quality posts again and again and then vanish for days when news developments push a burden of evidence that speaks against their narrative.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:39 pm

Ugly51 wrote:
Really, Boeing are in trouble. I am thinking possibly January 2020 before the 737 Max all models get a worldwide Airworthiness certificate.

That's a false milestone. Chances are very high that some number of agencies will hold out not just for technical reasons but either to express grief for the victims or to leverage an asymmetric power opportunity or as a side effect of other issues such as the trade squabble. The odds of the world's regulators acting in unity is tiny. The US will approve first, and then things will stretch out month after month, IMO, for the reasons above.
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gatechae
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:55 pm

Spirit Aerosystems (who builds 70% of the structure of the 737) is putting all its salaried employees on mandatory short workweeks (32 hrs) starting 6/21 due to revenue issues from the MAX grounding.
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:20 pm

Revelation wrote:
Ugly51 wrote:
Really, Boeing are in trouble. I am thinking possibly January 2020 before the 737 Max all models get a worldwide Airworthiness certificate.

That's a false milestone. Chances are very high that some number of agencies will hold out not just for technical reasons but either to express grief for the victims or to leverage an asymmetric power opportunity or as a side effect of other issues such as the trade squabble. The odds of the world's regulators acting in unity is tiny. The US will approve first, and then things will stretch out month after month, IMO, for the reasons above.


I think delaying return to service motivated by political reasons is not something that Boeing is worried about. Right now they have technical problems that they simply can not solve short term. The proposed 'fix' where MCAS self-disables is a joke. The amount of time they are taking to submit it tells me Boeing themselves have trouble accepting the fix is going to fly, pun intended. From my point of view they the only way MAX starts flying is when they reclassify consequences of the failure as catastrophic and make it 10-9 system. I don't know what they have to do to get there, put 20 AOA, maybe? Or they can go back to drawing board and fix problems aerodynamically. Either way it will be multi year affair.
 
Ertro
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:35 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
Then you've missed the replies that say Boeing caused the MAX to be a "Death Trap".
Over the top language has been the hallmark rather the exception for this thread.


Your over the top language tries to conflate two very different things.

Killing people is a crime and those who kill people should be made to stop even using drastic measures.

Death traps on the other hand are all over us in everyday life.
You like everybody else try and 99.9% time succeed in avoiding them.
However somebody dies every day in some of these.
Not much of a problem. Let's continue mostly like it is allowing for example motorcycles.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:45 pm

Ertro wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
Then you've missed the replies that say Boeing caused the MAX to be a "Death Trap".
Over the top language has been the hallmark rather the exception for this thread.


Your over the top language tries to conflate two very different things.

Killing people is a crime and those who kill people should be made to stop even using drastic measures.

Death traps on the other hand are all over us in everyday life.
You like everybody else try and 99.9% time succeed in avoiding them.
However somebody dies every day in some of these.
Not much of a problem. Let's continue mostly like it is but slowly reducing them.


"killing" is a very bad word for what appears to be more or less honest - albeit quite stupid - mistake. There was definitely no intention to harm.
And anyone who works with big system has to accept a risk that people may eventually die because designer (builder, maintenance) did a minor mistake - didn't recognize some crazy scenario, overlooked some fine detail etc. That is life. I do feel bad for Boeing folks, blaming them for "murder" is plain stupid.
There was a very bad mistake - with very bad consequences. But no need to talk bloodthirsty on either side. everyone signing off the project believed things will work just fine.

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