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AirlineCritic
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:53 pm

Revelation wrote:
The Muilenburg death watch has begun:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... g-survive/


Thank you for posting this. And I agree about the analysis of timing that you posted later, Revelation.

Back to the article. Slattery seems spot on, IMHO:

He said the refusal of Boeing to fully and publicly accept its share of the blame, an approach that has produced awkward moments with Muilenburg seemingly bound by legal restrictions from being too plain-spoken, has damaged Boeing’s reputation, especially overseas.


As an aside, it was also interesting to note the appreciation that Gates has gotten:

At the Aerospace Media Awards held in conjunction with the Paris Air Show, Seattle Times reporter Dominic Gates was honored Sunday for writing the year"s "Best In-depth Aviation Feature." His March 17 story, "Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system," gave the first detailed look into the approval process for the MCAS system implicated in the two fatal crashes of the Boeing jet.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:56 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
So what would make the “last generation 737” better to rehabilitate its image?

I proposed a mid cabin boarding door on the 8 and 9 to quicken turn around times.

Not looking for negatives like “can’t and won’t happen,” but positives that would get people to want to get onboard

73 rebranded 7?

I think if they re-marketed 737s as museum pieces or recycling material and not flyable airplanes that would help.

Or, if they insist on keeping it as a flyable machine, they went back to the drawing board and added a redesigned fuselage that was a bit wider, maybe made out of CFRP and housed a taller gear, added a new redesigned cockpit, added new/redesigned subsystems, redesigned wings, redesigned tail, redesigned motors since they’d have more landing gear length...so yeah a new plane that isn’t rooted in a 50 year old design would be a good start.
 
PixelPilot
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:56 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
So what would make the “last generation 737” better to rehabilitate its image?

I proposed a mid cabin boarding door on the 8 and 9 to quicken turn around times.

Not looking for negatives like “can’t and won’t happen,” but positives that would get people to want to get onboard

73 rebranded 7?


Little bit of time and people will get on board without thinking.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:15 pm

planecane wrote:
Revelation wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Looks like MAX will be fine after the IAG announcement.

That's an extremely premature statement, IMO.

Yet I've said on this thread a few times now that one year from now this will all be a fading memory, and I stand by that.

Let's see the FAA take its long awaited test flight with Boeing and have some public sign of FAA's acceptance before we get too giddy.

Do you think that Boeing would have submitted the fix and begun the process of the FAA test flight if they weren't absolutely sure it would perform perfectly in the testing? You want to talk about bad press, imagine if the FAA found issues in the certification test flight.

It's a long process and we know Boeing early on took back one set of changes and improved them, so almost anything is possible.
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XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:14 pm

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... iopian-jet
One wonders what Boeing have said to Ethiopian such that they are BFFs again suddenly?

Ray
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:23 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-18/boeing-s-mea-culpa-wins-over-operator-of-crashed-ethiopian-jet
One wonders what Boeing have said to Ethiopian such that they are BFFs again suddenly?

Ray


I'm sure a promise of a few bags of cash on the next order might have helped....not that those things ever happen....right.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:35 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-18/boeing-s-mea-culpa-wins-over-operator-of-crashed-ethiopian-jet
One wonders what Boeing have said to Ethiopian such that they are BFFs again suddenly?

It should not be hard to see their most important interests are in alignment.

FYI the key quote was:

“They (ed: Boeing) are more transparent and they are on the right track, doing the right things,” (ed: ET CEO) Tewolde said in an interview. “I think now that everything is in order. We are working together, so now we have more confidence. That’s good for global aviation.”
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kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:40 pm

Revelation wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-18/boeing-s-mea-culpa-wins-over-operator-of-crashed-ethiopian-jet
One wonders what Boeing have said to Ethiopian such that they are BFFs again suddenly?

It should not be hard to see their most important interests are in alignment.

FYI the key quote was:

“They (ed: Boeing) are more transparent and they are on the right track, doing the right things,” (ed: ET CEO) Tewolde said in an interview. “I think now that everything is in order. We are working together, so now we have more confidence. That’s good for global aviation.”

This is all good, but how much discount for planes? 75% off list price sound about right, but probably 85% would be negotioable
 
cat3land
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FATE OF MAX

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:06 am

FATE OF MAX.

Still believe fate of MAX will not be decided by FAA, or any C.A.Authority, or Boeing, but by the GENERAL PUBLIC. You won't
convince any passenger to fly on a Max, even if it's absurd behaviour . Time will tell us all.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:20 am

The public will fly on it if it is cleared. It will be interesting to see the details of just what Boeing had to do to get it airborne again and what it has done to get to where we are.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:21 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
PW100 wrote:

Perhaps they can take this opportunity to rename MCAS to System for Characteristic and Augmentated Manouvering . . .


Uniquely oblique (;


Must admit that I don't understand what you're meaning here. And that is totally on me, as English is not my mother tongue. But even through various translate apps, I'm not getting the meaning of this.

In any case, for context, my comment( . . . ) this was introduced way earlier in the previous thread, and had some reference to the discussion whether the 737 MAX needed MCAS because it:
* is unstable in pitch;
* seems to have insufficient natural stability margins in pitch;
* make it feel (to pilots) as 737NG;
* did not meet flight safety standards with respect to control column force gradiënt.

Considering the above there was some heated debate whether the formal MCAS abbreviation described its main intended function.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:48 am

Asturias wrote:
Revelation wrote:
The Muilenburg death watch has begun:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... g-survive/


That's a damn shame, Muilenburg wasn't the CEO when the MAX was designed or launched. I have great faith in the man, he's a Boeing lifetime employee, engineer and seems very level-headed.

Right now, Boeing needs a man like Muilenburg and does not need to start sacrificing scapegoats to please real or imagined critics. Calling for his departure from the company is extremely myopic and I hope it will not come to pass.


1 - CEO gets paid top dollar.
2 - CEO gets the plaudits when things go well.
3 - CEO takes the blame when things turn to shit and either gets sacked or decides to "spend more time with family" / "explore other career opportunities".

3 is the inevitable consequence of 1

It's not like the MAX grounding is Boeing's only issue at the moment.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:26 am

PW100 wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
PW100 wrote:
Perhaps they can take this opportunity to rename MCAS to System for Characteristic and Augmentated Manouvering . . .

Uniquely oblique (;

Must admit that I don't understand what you're meaning here. And that is totally on me, as English is not my mother tongue. But even through various translate apps, I'm not getting the meaning of this.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Oblique
 
T4thH
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:34 am

New or already known?

Physical Strength of Pilots Emerges as Issue in Returning 737 MAX to Flight
https://www.wsj.com/articles/physical-strength-of-pilots-emerges-as-issue-in-returning-737-max-to-flight-11560937879?emailToken=cb9aa0d426455a54695dd2f749aee84eUGjoHEDS7Z1RKSbkyAkpgCNrnPiJ5HOsJY528GnnCiMOK2EGREZxacP56NaQilhkSw4f2Cslg6RhgPrgFHrFxuI8h/XZI1ug/fp1NrFQ+yl7HklzkrdZkjKTWEB5WsSDBjFnOgfUuQCWWZPtxezkdA%3D%3D&reflink=article_copyURL_share

This is already an issue for all B737, including 737NG.and B737 MAX.and it is an issue in all simulators (in all 737 simulators, to move the wheel is much easier than in real live).
So if you are hot and high and get in trouble with running away trim near to the ground like EA...you are doomed, because you are also too fast (as hot and high).
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:37 am

scbriml wrote:
Asturias wrote:
Revelation wrote:
The Muilenburg death watch has begun:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... g-survive/


That's a damn shame, Muilenburg wasn't the CEO when the MAX was designed or launched. I have great faith in the man, he's a Boeing lifetime employee, engineer and seems very level-headed.

Right now, Boeing needs a man like Muilenburg and does not need to start sacrificing scapegoats to please real or imagined critics. Calling for his departure from the company is extremely myopic and I hope it will not come to pass.


It's not like the MAX grounding is Boeing's only issue at the moment.


Let's not pretend anyone would be talking about or insinuating Muilenburg's departure if it wasn't for the MAX grounding.

You describe the reasoning behind the pressure on the CEO very well, but it is useless exercise, at the end of the day.

The person who should take responsibility is Jim McNerney, a thoroughbred corporatist beancounter who was chairman of the board of Boing from 2005 and CEO from 2007 to 2015. A man who never worked for Boeing and whose education is Business Administration (MBA).

He's the one who decided to go for the MAX instead of another option, for instance. He's the man who is behind some of the most boneheaded recent decisions by Boeing, and perfectly suited for the Chicago style nu-Boeing.

And now we have a engineer CEO who has worked his entire career at Boeing, getting heat for almost a decade's worth of "MBA" decisions by McNerney. I'm sorry, I just don't see the point of attacking Muilenburg, no matter how much "sense" it makes to some people. It makes no sense to me.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:33 pm

Asturias wrote:
Let's not pretend anyone would be talking about or insinuating Muilenburg's departure if it wasn't for the MAX grounding.

You describe the reasoning behind the pressure on the CEO very well, but it is useless exercise, at the end of the day.

The person who should take responsibility is Jim McNerney, a thoroughbred corporatist beancounter who was chairman of the board of Boing from 2005 and CEO from 2007 to 2015. A man who never worked for Boeing and whose education is Business Administration (MBA).

He's the one who decided to go for the MAX instead of another option, for instance. He's the man who is behind some of the most boneheaded recent decisions by Boeing, and perfectly suited for the Chicago style nu-Boeing.

And now we have a engineer CEO who has worked his entire career at Boeing, getting heat for almost a decade's worth of "MBA" decisions by McNerney. I'm sorry, I just don't see the point of attacking Muilenburg, no matter how much "sense" it makes to some people. It makes no sense to me.

Yes, the trigger point is Muilenburg's handling of the aftermath of the MAX crashes, although the ongoing KC46 stuff is a black eye too.

Truth be told it's not ideal for Boeing to have an honest engineer type as a CEO at this point in time.

They could use someone who is a "slick willie" who can lie with a gleam in his eye yet stay on top of the facts at the same time i.e. a John Leahy type.

A slicker person could probably have pulled off the "making a safe plane safer" line, or would have an inner voice screaming at them that this is the wrong line to use and the wrong time to use it.

It'd be nice to be able to retroactively kick McNearney in the ass, but it doesn't work that way, they can't fire an already retired CEO.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:22 pm

Revelation wrote:
Asturias wrote:
Let's not pretend anyone would be talking about or insinuating Muilenburg's departure if it wasn't for the MAX grounding.

You describe the reasoning behind the pressure on the CEO very well, but it is useless exercise, at the end of the day.

The person who should take responsibility is Jim McNerney, a thoroughbred corporatist beancounter who was chairman of the board of Boing from 2005 and CEO from 2007 to 2015. A man who never worked for Boeing and whose education is Business Administration (MBA).

He's the one who decided to go for the MAX instead of another option, for instance. He's the man who is behind some of the most boneheaded recent decisions by Boeing, and perfectly suited for the Chicago style nu-Boeing.

And now we have a engineer CEO who has worked his entire career at Boeing, getting heat for almost a decade's worth of "MBA" decisions by McNerney. I'm sorry, I just don't see the point of attacking Muilenburg, no matter how much "sense" it makes to some people. It makes no sense to me.


It'd be nice to be able to retroactively kick McNearney in the ass, but it doesn't work that way, they can't fire an already retired CEO.


I don't think Muilenburg is or should be described as an "honest engineer", nor have I described him as such or even insinuated such a description.

What he is, is an engineer who knows Boeing very well, having made his career at the company, and understands the product they make on a level McNerney simply could not. He's a CEO the middle management can't easily bullshit with overly optimistic or even unrealistic targets - something which has plagued Boeing more than it should have under McNerney.

Nor did he personally come up with the awkward phrasing of "making a safe plane safer", and he's not there to be the spokesperson of a multi-billion dollar conglomerate. They actually have spokespersons and PR departments for that very purpose. PR departments which were developed under McNerney, as it happens.

The KC 46 program, was also launched and developed under McNerney. It's quite astounding how many "black eyes" can be attributed to McNerney. Retrospectively, he may be one of the most inept CEOs Boeing has ever had.

And you rightly point out, that we can't kick McNerney retroactively in the ass - and equally, we can't kick Muilenburg in the ass for McNerney's questionable MBA decisions. You could just as well shout into the wind. It would make as much difference. Boeing is not going to "slick willie" themselves out of this, they're going to engineer themselves out of this mess.
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ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:47 pm

I don't understand why IAG 'order' is generating so much hype. It's not even an order, but letter of intent.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:54 pm

Asturias wrote:
I don't think Muilenburg is or should be described as an "honest engineer", nor have I described him as such or even insinuated such a description.

What he is, is an engineer who knows Boeing very well, having made his career at the company, and understands the product they make on a level McNerney simply could not. He's a CEO the middle management can't easily bullshit with overly optimistic or even unrealistic targets - something which has plagued Boeing more than it should have under McNerney.

Nor did he personally come up with the awkward phrasing of "making a safe plane safer", and he's not there to be the spokesperson of a multi-billion dollar conglomerate. They actually have spokespersons and PR departments for that very purpose. PR departments which were developed under McNerney, as it happens.

The KC 46 program, was also launched and developed under McNerney. It's quite astounding how many "black eyes" can be attributed to McNerney. Retrospectively, he may be one of the most inept CEOs Boeing has ever had.

And you rightly point out, that we can't kick McNerney retroactively in the ass - and equally, we can't kick Muilenburg in the ass for McNerney's questionable MBA decisions. You could just as well shout into the wind. It would make as much difference. Boeing is not going to "slick willie" themselves out of this, they're going to engineer themselves out of this mess.

To be clear, the "honest engineer type" description is my characterization, and to me that's how he comes across in his on-camera apologies, as opposed to a "slick willie" John Leahy salesman type guy.

Yes, there are PR departments, but in a crisis the CEO is the one everyone expects to see in front of the cameras, they are literally the face of their corporations, and that is a part of why they earn huge amounts of money ($23.4M in compensation last year for DM).

The bottom line is he does not own MCAS but he does own the response to MCAS and I feel the rest of his career will largely be judged based on how he did or did not handle the MCAS crisis.

So far I'd give him a grade of C+: he's dealing with a lot of constraints on what he can and cannot say, but he comes across as someone who is struggling with such constraints rather than someone who accepts them as just another part of his job as a highly compensated CEO of an immense multi-faceted corporation.

I think, for instance, a JL type would be doing better at this aspect of the CEO job.

I agree having an engineer in charge to counter balance the decade of the GE guy is valuable, but the PR side of the job is one you cannot hand off to someone else, and it is not his strength, IMO.
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ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:55 pm

Asturias wrote:
Nor did he personally come up with the awkward phrasing of "making a safe plane safer"

Does not matter who came up with it. He was the one saying it. Multiple times.
 
sgbroimp
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:47 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-18/boeing-s-mea-culpa-wins-over-operator-of-crashed-ethiopian-jet
One wonders what Boeing have said to Ethiopian such that they are BFFs again suddenly?

Ray


More than likely he has seen there were mistakes all around including in is pilots' performance and/or his airlines' training. Hard to keep throwing stones if one lives in a glass house.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:56 pm

sgbroimp wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-18/boeing-s-mea-culpa-wins-over-operator-of-crashed-ethiopian-jet
One wonders what Boeing have said to Ethiopian such that they are BFFs again suddenly?

Ray


More than likely he has seen there were mistakes all around including in is pilots' performance and/or his airlines' training. Hard to keep throwing stones if one lives in a glass house.

It’s also business. Staying mad at Boeing forever is not good business. Reassurances, along with compensation, go a long way if Ethiopian feels like they are not being thrown under a bus anymore.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:08 pm

sgbroimp wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-18/boeing-s-mea-culpa-wins-over-operator-of-crashed-ethiopian-jet
One wonders what Boeing have said to Ethiopian such that they are BFFs again suddenly?

Ray


More than likely he has seen there were mistakes all around including in is pilots' performance and/or his airlines' training. Hard to keep throwing stones if one lives in a glass house.

Tell that to Boeing and ask how that worked for them.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:26 pm

Revelation wrote:
Asturias wrote:
I don't think Muilenburg is or should be described as an "honest engineer", nor have I described him as such or even insinuated such a description.

What he is, is an engineer who knows Boeing very well, having made his career at the company, and understands the product they make on a level McNerney simply could not. He's a CEO the middle management can't easily bullshit with overly optimistic or even unrealistic targets - something which has plagued Boeing more than it should have under McNerney.

Nor did he personally come up with the awkward phrasing of "making a safe plane safer", and he's not there to be the spokesperson of a multi-billion dollar conglomerate. They actually have spokespersons and PR departments for that very purpose. PR departments which were developed under McNerney, as it happens.

The KC 46 program, was also launched and developed under McNerney. It's quite astounding how many "black eyes" can be attributed to McNerney. Retrospectively, he may be one of the most inept CEOs Boeing has ever had.

And you rightly point out, that we can't kick McNerney retroactively in the ass - and equally, we can't kick Muilenburg in the ass for McNerney's questionable MBA decisions. You could just as well shout into the wind. It would make as much difference. Boeing is not going to "slick willie" themselves out of this, they're going to engineer themselves out of this mess.


I agree having an engineer in charge to counter balance the decade of the GE guy is valuable, but the PR side of the job is one you cannot hand off to someone else, and it is not his strength, IMO.


Absolutely agreed, Dennis Muilenburg is not the best PR person - but it is not really his responsibility to be one. You mention John Leahy, and he was indeed an excellent PR person - incredible salesman - and yet he was never the CEO of Airbus. He was just the best PR executive. The CEO of Airbus, whether it was Tom Enders or Noël Forgeard, did not appear as Airbus spokespersons - because they had the charm of a day old loaf of bread and the PR skills to match.

My point is, that it isn't specifically the CEO's job to be a spokesperson, but Muilenburg took it upon himself - an own goal, in my opinion, since he's not very good at it. As you say, he's no John Leahy. But Boeing is not a PR driven company, it is an engineering driven company. Boeing will not bullshit its way out of this, it will engineer its way out of this.

It's Boeing's products that make or break the company, its reputation and image - all their issues and the solutions to those issues are in engineering - not in PR. I think it is fairly hysterical reaction to pile on the CEO for making PR mistakes, when that's simply not the problem for Boeing.

I want Boeing to succeed, I'm a big fan of their airplanes and have been all my life. Boeing is one of the elite engineering and aviation the world has to offer, and it's been run by a complete MBA nitwit for a decade, whose influence on the company will take another decade to unwind. Stop worrying about PR and start worrying about unparalleled engineering excellence, because without that, no slick PR is going to make one iota of difference.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:02 pm

Just listened to House Subcommittee hearing in relation to the MAX. It was very informative. Two statements from members of the expert panel stood out.

Capt. Sullenbergers first " We shouldn't expect pilots to compensate for faulty designs" Obviously the MAX and MCAS in particular was a faulty design.

Captain Carey second "Aircraft manufactuers should be required to perform a more robust safety risk assesment on their designs." Obviously in the case of MCAS that was not done by Boeing as not enough what ifs' were asked such as Where are the backups etc.

Another thing that stood out was the need for better an more comprehensive pilot training and better documentation in regard to new systems and checklists for such.

I got a feel listening to this hearing that the pilots who fly these aircraft are still pretty burned with Boeing.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:37 pm

Asturias wrote:
Absolutely agreed, Dennis Muilenburg is not the best PR person - but it is not really his responsibility to be one. You mention John Leahy, and he was indeed an excellent PR person - incredible salesman - and yet he was never the CEO of Airbus. He was just the best PR executive. The CEO of Airbus, whether it was Tom Enders or Noël Forgeard, did not appear as Airbus spokespersons - because they had the charm of a day old loaf of bread and the PR skills to match.

My point is, that it isn't specifically the CEO's job to be a spokesperson, but Muilenburg took it upon himself - an own goal, in my opinion, since he's not very good at it. As you say, he's no John Leahy. But Boeing is not a PR driven company, it is an engineering driven company. Boeing will not bullshit its way out of this, it will engineer its way out of this.

It's Boeing's products that make or break the company, its reputation and image - all their issues and the solutions to those issues are in engineering - not in PR. I think it is fairly hysterical reaction to pile on the CEO for making PR mistakes, when that's simply not the problem for Boeing.

I want Boeing to succeed, I'm a big fan of their airplanes and have been all my life. Boeing is one of the elite engineering and aviation the world has to offer, and it's been run by a complete MBA nitwit for a decade, whose influence on the company will take another decade to unwind. Stop worrying about PR and start worrying about unparalleled engineering excellence, because without that, no slick PR is going to make one iota of difference.

I largely agree with what you say, but think JL could have been Airbus CEO if he was French or German, and have seen Tom Enders make public statements and thought he was pretty good at it. I doubt Tom would have ever said "making a safe plane even safer" in front of a camera.

I also doubt you can unwind a decade of middle management MBA hires by changing the CEO. In my experience what happens is the MBAs stay and the engineers leave. I hope I'm wrong about this, but I don't think I am.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:44 pm

Nobody put a gun to Muilenbergs head and told him to be CEO. If Muilenberg prefers to be an engineer then he can stay/be an engineer. Boeing could have found someone else to play CEO.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:07 pm

WSJ has an article discussing the physical requirements of a pilot to control the manual trim at high speeds and sharp angles of attack.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/physical-s ... 1560937879

This shouldn't be a surprise to most of us here. Especially pilots. Everyone knows it's not an easy task. And per the regs, it's a 50 lb single pilot effort force requirement. But nonetheless, they're raising the question after some reports coming out from simulators. Thing is, this force is no different than the NG (as the report actually points out, correctly).

The report even goes further and admits:

There are no plans to restrict certain pilots from getting behind the controls of any 737 models based on their strength, according to people with knowledge of the deliberations. But both Boeing and Federal Aviation Administration leaders are concerned that if such discussions become public they could be overblown or sensationalized, according to industry and government officials familiar with the process.


It's ironic that they put this in an article that is, itself, a sensationalist piece written for clicks and traffic. The pilot effort forces are known. They are driven by regulations. Terrible article.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:54 pm

I wonder if they'll have to change the gearing on the manual trim wheel so it meets the 50lb spec. Not sure how the 50lg spec fits in the "roller coaster / fisning pole method". Is it 50lb in level flight to recover the HStab at any angle / speed?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:14 pm

From the IAG thread:

FlightLevel360 wrote:
Not called 737 MAX anymore.

It will just be followed by a number; e.g. 737 MAX 8 becomes 737-8, etc.

This is per the press release.

<sarcasm>
Finally a high level PR response to the crisis by Boeing Management!
</sarcasm>
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:35 pm

Revelation wrote:
From the IAG thread:

FlightLevel360 wrote:
Not called 737 MAX anymore.

It will just be followed by a number; e.g. 737 MAX 8 becomes 737-8, etc.

This is per the press release.

<sarcasm>
Finally a high level PR response to the crisis by Boeing Management!
</sarcasm>

Did they consider the phonetics do you think?!

Ray
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:59 pm

Can someone give me an example flight schedule for the future that is on a 737 MAX? I'm a system analyst trying to test our travel system.
 
achmafooma
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Re: FATE OF MAX

Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:06 pm

cat3land wrote:
FATE OF MAX.

Still believe fate of MAX will not be decided by FAA, or any C.A.Authority, or Boeing, but by the GENERAL PUBLIC. You won't
convince any passenger to fly on a Max, even if it's absurd behaviour . Time will tell us all.

With respect, I think that you are overestimating how much attention the average passenger pays to these kinds of things. I doubt even 1/3rd of the people on a normal flight even check what they're going to be flying on ahead of time...and among those who do most will be aviation nerds who know the plane has been made safe (assuming that it actually is made safe before return to flight).

There might be some avoidance immediately after return to flight while this whole debacle is fresh in people's minds, but after a short time (a month or two?) they'll forget. DC-10 and 787 both had high profile safety problems and some passenger avoidance, but nobody cared after a little time had passed.
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:04 pm

"The Southwest Airlines Pilots Association is the first labor group to say it will join Max operators in seeking to recover costs from Boeing, increasing the planemaker’s potential financial obligations from the accidents. The union says pilots have lost at least $9 million a month in pay while the airline’s 34 Max aircraft have been grounded, and Swapa has spent money to comply with a U.S. Justice Department request for records and documents related to the plane."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rom-boeing
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:42 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
Did they consider the phonetics do you think?!

Sorry but that comment is going over my head, I must be missing something.

But it does make me wonder if the taint from 737 MAX is so persistent that the next Boeing model (presumably "NMA") will drop the 7x7 numbering scheme to make a clean break from the past.

Some of us already thought it would be time to do so even before the MCAS tragedy, and this could be one more reason to move on.

Oh boy tough times in the Boeing branding department!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:03 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
WSJ has an article discussing the physical requirements of a pilot to control the manual trim at high speeds and sharp angles of attack.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/physical-s ... 1560937879

This shouldn't be a surprise to most of us here. Especially pilots. Everyone knows it's not an easy task. And per the regs, it's a 50 lb single pilot effort force requirement. But nonetheless, they're raising the question after some reports coming out from simulators. Thing is, this force is no different than the NG (as the report actually points out, correctly).

The report even goes further and admits:

There are no plans to restrict certain pilots from getting behind the controls of any 737 models based on their strength, according to people with knowledge of the deliberations. But both Boeing and Federal Aviation Administration leaders are concerned that if such discussions become public they could be overblown or sensationalized, according to industry and government officials familiar with the process.


It's ironic that they put this in an article that is, itself, a sensationalist piece written for clicks and traffic. The pilot effort forces are known. They are driven by regulations. Terrible article.
50lbs force is crazy stuff. This is the 21st century. The sight of mentour pilot struggling with the control column was very worrying.
 
Canuck600
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:47 pm

Does anybody else think that getting rid of the Max branding too soon might cause a negative backlash? -Boeing is trying to hide something again? Just a thought running through my mind
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:53 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
"The Southwest Airlines Pilots Association is the first labor group to say it will join Max operators in seeking to recover costs from Boeing, increasing the planemaker’s potential financial obligations from the accidents. The union says pilots have lost at least $9 million a month in pay while the airline’s 34 Max aircraft have been grounded, and Swapa has spent money to comply with a U.S. Justice Department request for records and documents related to the plane."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rom-boeing


It would be interesting to know the legal liability Boeing would actually have to the pilots in a situation like this. As an analogy, if Microsoft has a prodution issue with the XBOX factory and doesn't deliver them to retailers in time for Christmas season which causes the retailer to give their employees less hours, I don't think that the employees can sue Microsoft. It may be different in this case. If it is, I'd like to be educated.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:33 am

According to Sully.

"I recently experienced all these warnings in a 737 MAX flight simulator during recreations of the accident flights. Even knowing what was going to happen, I could see how crews could have run out of time before they could have solved the problems. Prior to these accidents, I think it is unlikely that any US airline pilots were confronted with this scenario in simulator training," Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger told the House Transportation Committee during a hearing on the embattled plane model.
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:01 pm

Interesting details surface about IAG LOI. Apparently those companies are Airbus only shops, and somehow Airbus was not even given RFQ for the planes. Makes one wonder if that LOI is a bona fide deal.
 
Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:24 pm

ArgentoSystems wrote:
Interesting details surface about IAG LOI. Apparently those companies are Airbus only shops, and somehow Airbus was not even given RFQ for the planes. Makes one wonder if that LOI is a bona fide deal.


Hell yes it's a bona fide order, perhaps overblown in both negative and positive reactions.

Basically, Boeing has found a customer for the 200 or so frames Jet Airways ordered before they imploded,
so it's a break even deal for Boeing once the 9W orders are officially cancelled.

I do wonder if IAG was offered any of the 9W white tails now in storage?
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:29 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
According to Sully.

"I recently experienced all these warnings in a 737 MAX flight simulator during recreations of the accident flights. Even knowing what was going to happen, I could see how crews could have run out of time before they could have solved the problems. Prior to these accidents, I think it is unlikely that any US airline pilots were confronted with this scenario in simulator training," Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger told the House Transportation Committee during a hearing on the embattled plane model.


That's all well and good but I think he was pushing for simulator training in the future based on his experience with a recreation of a sequence of events that won't happen again with MCAS 2.0. Before advocating for simulator training on the MAX being necessary, Sully should have flown a simulator with MCAS 2.0. Basing the need for simulator training for the MAX with MCAS 2.0 on the situation created by MCAS 1.0 doesn't make any sense.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:33 pm

ArgentoSystems wrote:
Interesting details surface about IAG LOI. Apparently those companies are Airbus only shops, and somehow Airbus was not even given RFQ for the planes. Makes one wonder if that LOI is a bona fide deal.


There is a whole thread where you (and others) can come up with wild speculation in the strange hope that the IAG order is some kind of a mirage. A major airline group does not publicly announce an LOI for 200 aircraft if it is not a bona fide deal. If they did, they would violate all kinds of securities regulations because of the effect the announcement can have on the stock market.

I'm sure the LOI (and the firm contract that comes out of it) has contingencies if the MAX doesn't get ungrounded or if it requires some kind of major redesign that causes the delivery date to slip past a certain point.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:57 pm

planecane wrote:
RickNRoll wrote:
According to Sully.

"I recently experienced all these warnings in a 737 MAX flight simulator during recreations of the accident flights. Even knowing what was going to happen, I could see how crews could have run out of time before they could have solved the problems. Prior to these accidents, I think it is unlikely that any US airline pilots were confronted with this scenario in simulator training," Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger told the House Transportation Committee during a hearing on the embattled plane model.


That's all well and good but I think he was pushing for simulator training in the future based on his experience with a recreation of a sequence of events that won't happen again with MCAS 2.0. Before advocating for simulator training on the MAX being necessary, Sully should have flown a simulator with MCAS 2.0. Basing the need for simulator training for the MAX with MCAS 2.0 on the situation created by MCAS 1.0 doesn't make any sense.

MCAS story is fairly unprecedented. I would say, nobody really knows what to do here.
MAX designed for no specific training, and I would say that seems mostly achieved. A bit here and there, maybe... but now there are 2 crashes because of differences between NG and MAX, and still minimum differences training?
Airbus may use the case to improve baseline pilot requirements - but they are talking about pilots unable to do everyday tasks, not about troubleshoot overwhelming multiple failure scenarios. Generally this is about making sure todays requirements are met across the world and fleet types, not anything advanced. Sort of making sure anyone with high school diploma can actually read and write.
That leaves a lot of people in a funny position - we are upset with what happened, we want change - but we don't know what kind of change, maybe :twocents: ?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:37 pm

I will repeat my unpopular (or wrong) posts. The aviation industry needs something between $15 million simulators and an iPad. MS flight simulator with some hardware from retired 737s programmed to offer specific scenarios seems logical and inevitable. I could see the first one costing $1 million, and the subsequent about $100K (or less)
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Elementalism
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Re: FATE OF MAX

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:44 pm

cat3land wrote:
FATE OF MAX.

Still believe fate of MAX will not be decided by FAA, or any C.A.Authority, or Boeing, but by the GENERAL PUBLIC. You won't
convince any passenger to fly on a Max, even if it's absurd behaviour . Time will tell us all.


Public flew on the DC-10 after some horrific teething issues. And the A320 after it crashed at an airshow with video broadcasted around the world. And even the 727 had teething issues. The general public is driven by airfares not aircraft types. In other words, a.net is an aviation enthusiast site. We dont represent the general public.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:54 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
According to Sully.

"I recently experienced all these warnings in a 737 MAX flight simulator during recreations of the accident flights. Even knowing what was going to happen, I could see how crews could have run out of time before they could have solved the problems. Prior to these accidents, I think it is unlikely that any US airline pilots were confronted with this scenario in simulator training," Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger told the House Transportation Committee during a hearing on the embattled plane model.

Since its quiet. Thought I'd throw together the direct quotes I could find from the Congress Sub-Committee hearing this week.

Capt. Sullenberger:
“It is clear that the original version of MCAS was fatally flawed and should never have been approved,”

"These crashes are demonstrable evidence that our current system of aircraft design and certification failed us,". "The accidents should never have happened."

Told the panel that it’s important pilots don’t have “inadvertent traps.”

Capt. Carey:
"Boeing designs and engineers and manufacturers superb aircraft". "Unfortunately in the case of the Max, I'll have to agree with the Boeing CEO, they let the traveling public down in a fatal and catastrophic way."

"A huge error of omission was the fact that Boeing failed to disclose the existence of the MCAS system to the pilot community around the world,"
Carey says Boeing's failures have created a "crisis of trust" between the airplane-maker and pilots.
(NB: It is also reported elsewhere that some airline pilots were assured, post JT610, that AOA disagree was fitted and operable before take-off neither of which was quite true - and they know it now)

Capt. Sullenberger:
"Reading about it on an iPad is not even close to sufficient. Pilots must experience it physically, firsthand."
(NB: I believe we know that MCAS, nor the change in Stab Trim Cut-Out Switch function were even mentioned at all in the original iPad training either)

“They need to develop a muscle memory of their experiences so that it will be immediately accessible to them in the future, even years from now, when they experience such a crisis,” “It needs to be intuitive.”

“We should all want pilots to experience these challenging situations for the first time in a simulator, not in flight with passengers and crew on board,”
(NB: I believe we know the MAX Simulators, of which there was only one on the North American continent in airline hands, could not simulate MCAS or reflect actual manual Trim Wheel forces)

“We must make sure that everyone who occupies a pilot seat is fully armed with the information, knowledge, training, skill and judgment to be able to be the absolute master of the aircraft and all its component systems and of the situations simultaneously and continuously throughout the flight,”
(NB: I believe we know that neither MCAS or the erroneously missing AOA Disagree alert were known before November 2018)

“I recently experienced all these warnings in a 737 MAX flight simulator during recreations of the accident flights. Even knowing what was going to happen, I could see how crews could have run out of time and altitude before they could have solved the problems. Prior to these accidents, I think it is unlikely that any US airline pilots were confronted with this scenario in simulator training,”
(NB: I believe we know that Runaway Stabiliser NNC also was not on the training sylybus before February 2019)

"I can tell you firsthand that the startle factor is real and it's huge. It absolutely interferes with one's ability to quickly analyze the crisis and take corrective action,".

Capt. Carey:/Capt. Sullenberger:
"Some (U.S.) crews would have recognized it in time to recover, but some would not have," Carey testified. Sullenberger agreed, saying it's unlikely that more experienced pilots would have had different outcomes, adding, "we shouldn't have to expect pilots to compensate for flawed designs."
"These two recent crashes happened in foreign countries," said Sullenberger. "But if we do not address all the important issues and factors, they can and will happen here."

<https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-19/-miracle-pilot-sullenberger-calls-for-simulator-training-on-max?srnd=all>
<https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/06/19/chesley-sully-sullenberger-boeing-737-max-flight-simulation/>
<https://www.wrvo.org/post/pilots-criticize-boeing-saying-737-max-should-never-have-been-approved>
<https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-19/-miracle-pilot-sullenberger-calls-for-simulator-training-on-max?srnd=all
<https://www.wsj.com/articles/physical-strength-of-pilots-emerges-as-issue-in-returning-737-max-to-flight-11560937879?emailToken=cb9aa0d426455a54695dd2f749aee84eUGjoHEDS7Z1RKSbkyAkpgCNrnPiJ5HOsJY528GnnCiMOK2EGREZxacP56NaQilhkSw4f2Cslg6RhgPrgFHrFxuI8h/XZI1ug/fp1NrFQ+yl7HklzkrdZkjKTWEB5WsSDBjFnOgfUuQCWWZPtxezkdA%3D%3D&reflink=article_copyURL_share

Ray
 
mrbots
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:32 pm

I'm seeing all this Sully stuff floating around everywhere now. I realize he has a long history as a pilot with time in the military, 30 years as a pilot for US Airways, and obviously the "Miracle on the Hudson" but does he have any history or experience flying 737s or did they just plop him in the simulator for the headlines? I feel they're just waving him around because he's probably the only pilot people have heard of instead of the usual that would probably be a subject matter expert on the specific airframe or it's predecessor. Sully said...and if Sully said it, then it must be true.
 
sillystrings
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:51 pm

mrbots wrote:
I'm seeing all this Sully stuff floating around everywhere now. I realize he has a long history as a pilot with time in the military, 30 years as a pilot for US Airways, and obviously the "Miracle on the Hudson" but does he have any history or experience flying 737s or did they just plop him in the simulator for the headlines? I feel they're just waving him around because he's probably the only pilot people have heard of instead of the usual that would probably be a subject matter expert on the specific airframe or it's predecessor. Sully said...and if Sully said it, then it must be true.

I wondered how long before someone questions his credentials...
For all it's worth he was involved in accident investigations.
 
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madpropsyo
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:04 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I will repeat my unpopular (or wrong) posts. The aviation industry needs something between $15 million simulators and an iPad. MS flight simulator with some hardware from retired 737s programmed to offer specific scenarios seems logical and inevitable. I could see the first one costing $1 million, and the subsequent about $100K (or less)


Fixed base and Desktop simulators have existed for years. Whether every airline consistently invests in them is another question, but they already exist and are certified and used extensively in the industry.

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