frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:13 pm

madpropsyo wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I will repeat my unpopular (or wrong) posts. The aviation industry needs something between $15 million simulators and an iPad. MS flight simulator with some hardware from retired 737s programmed to offer specific scenarios seems logical and inevitable. I could see the first one costing $1 million, and the subsequent about $100K (or less)


Fixed base and Desktop simulators have existed for years. Whether every airline consistently invests in them is another question, but they already exist and are certified and used extensively in the industry.


Thanks for the information and the key words. Seemingly this sort of thing would be a better training tool than an iPad (not a knock at iPad) The important thing as I would imagine, is exercises building muscle memory for any number of specific things.
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kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:32 pm

mrbots wrote:
I'm seeing all this Sully stuff floating around everywhere now. I realize he has a long history as a pilot with time in the military, 30 years as a pilot for US Airways, and obviously the "Miracle on the Hudson" but does he have any history or experience flying 737s or did they just plop him in the simulator for the headlines? I feel they're just waving him around because he's probably the only pilot people have heard of instead of the usual that would probably be a subject matter expert on the specific airframe or it's predecessor. Sully said...and if Sully said it, then it must be true.

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MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:32 pm

mrbots wrote:
I'm seeing all this Sully stuff floating around everywhere now. I realize he has a long history as a pilot with time in the military, 30 years as a pilot for US Airways, and obviously the "Miracle on the Hudson" but does he have any history or experience flying 737s or did they just plop him in the simulator for the headlines? I feel they're just waving him around because he's probably the only pilot people have heard of instead of the usual that would probably be a subject matter expert on the specific airframe or it's predecessor. Sully said...and if Sully said it, then it must be true.


Good question about his 737 experience. We can assume he may have flown 737 classics, but that would been a long time ago and two generations behind the MAX.

The media treats him as if he's the expert on everything. He's a valuable resource on many things, but we know he's not an expert on flying the 737 NG or MAX. His opinion is noteworthy, but these aren't the words of a 737 pilot.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:49 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
mrbots wrote:
I'm seeing all this Sully stuff floating around everywhere now. I realize he has a long history as a pilot with time in the military, 30 years as a pilot for US Airways, and obviously the "Miracle on the Hudson" but does he have any history or experience flying 737s or did they just plop him in the simulator for the headlines? I feel they're just waving him around because he's probably the only pilot people have heard of instead of the usual that would probably be a subject matter expert on the specific airframe or it's predecessor. Sully said...and if Sully said it, then it must be true.


Good question about his 737 experience. We can assume he may have flown 737 classics, but that would been a long time ago and two generations behind the MAX.

The media treats him as if he's the expert on everything. He's a valuable resource on many things, but we know he's not an expert on flying the 737 NG or MAX. His opinion is noteworthy, but these aren't the words of a 737 pilot.

Why don't you focus on the other captain involved in the committee ?
https://www.capapilots.org/about-capa/b ... dan-carey/
https://www.alliedpilots.org/AboutUs
So for you, those two very experienced captains trusted by a number of associations/organisations/agencies in the civil aircraft industry have no credibility because there didn't have flight time on the 737NG ? :roll:
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:03 am

Since the main issue is related to the MAX and its similarity to the NG, it would have been good to have more current NG experts versus Airbus.
Just a thought
 
acechip
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:41 am

Sully's statement " a pilot cannot be expected to compensate for a flawed design " just about sums up the problem. Sully also talks about pilots being overwhelmed by issues that should not arise in the first place. By Boeings own admission, the average 737NG pilot should be able to fly the Max without much difficulty. The average pilot is also likely the one to be overwhelmed by the situation. And average pilots dominate the world skies. Its the manufacturer who should be making things safer for these pilots , not the other way round.
 
speedking
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:48 am

par13del wrote:
Since the main issue is related to the MAX and its similarity to the NG, it would have been good to have more current NG experts versus Airbus.
Just a thought


Yes. Unfortunately the 2 pilots most experienced with MAX are not here anymore.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:39 am

Sully is spot-on, IMHO.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:31 am

Just as consumers are demanding geographical changes in food production for more locally grown food, so could similarly the manufacture of aircraft in the interests of the safety of international flying public be moved to countries with legislature for the least corporate lobbying power to ensure proper governmental oversight (and accompanying levels of taxation levels high enough to fund it)? Or should the companies remain as free to do what they want at the current USA legislative levels? Could transparency become a competitive advantage as production undergoes geographical changes? In the 1950's it was unthinkable to have a Made in Ethiopia car. The Lifan is that today.
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Elementalism
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:49 pm

I have only glanced through articles. But what Sully said isn't a revelation. We have known for months the original design of MCAS was horribly flawed. I still want to know how such a design made it into the wild. Nobody stopped to think maybe this trim management system that is supposed to make the MAX feel like an NG shouldn't be able to push the trim to full down?
 
Rosso
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:42 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
mrbots wrote:
I'm seeing all this Sully stuff floating around everywhere now. I realize he has a long history as a pilot with time in the military, 30 years as a pilot for US Airways, and obviously the "Miracle on the Hudson" but does he have any history or experience flying 737s or did they just plop him in the simulator for the headlines? I feel they're just waving him around because he's probably the only pilot people have heard of instead of the usual that would probably be a subject matter expert on the specific airframe or it's predecessor. Sully said...and if Sully said it, then it must be true.


Good question about his 737 experience. We can assume he may have flown 737 classics, but that would been a long time ago and two generations behind the MAX.

The media treats him as if he's the expert on everything. He's a valuable resource on many things, but we know he's not an expert on flying the 737 NG or MAX. His opinion is noteworthy, but these aren't the words of a 737 pilot.


Based on Boeing's assessment of the 737 family, I would say that he's very much in a position to give his opinion on the MAX.
 
snowkarl
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:36 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
mrbots wrote:
I'm seeing all this Sully stuff floating around everywhere now. I realize he has a long history as a pilot with time in the military, 30 years as a pilot for US Airways, and obviously the "Miracle on the Hudson" but does he have any history or experience flying 737s or did they just plop him in the simulator for the headlines? I feel they're just waving him around because he's probably the only pilot people have heard of instead of the usual that would probably be a subject matter expert on the specific airframe or it's predecessor. Sully said...and if Sully said it, then it must be true.


Good question about his 737 experience. We can assume he may have flown 737 classics, but that would been a long time ago and two generations behind the MAX.

The media treats him as if he's the expert on everything. He's a valuable resource on many things, but we know he's not an expert on flying the 737 NG or MAX. His opinion is noteworthy, but these aren't the words of a 737 pilot.


It doesn't matter if he's not an expert on those specific versions of the 737, he's an extremely decorated and experienced pilot with very educated opinions on aviation safety, especially when compared to the average anet poster.

I guess Neil Armstrong wouldn't be qualified to say that the space shuttle is unsafe because he's a simple Apollo astronaut...

Obviously it isn't true just because Sully said it but he is an authority on the subject and what he said is completely logical and that fact doesn't go away simply because you happen to disagree with it.
 
wingman
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:48 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
Sully is spot-on, IMHO.


I agree. He's probably one of the most experienced and unbiased observers I've seen in this industry. He's worth listening to in this case just as he was in describing the cockpit situation in the AF447 disaster.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:53 pm

I think that Sully also said that the unlinked sidestick was problematic in AF447, yet that design has not been improved. What to do with the manual trim wheel on the NG, from 1997, a problematic design with 22 years in service. Should it be regeared, and how fast should that take place?
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:56 pm

acechip wrote:
Sully's statement " a pilot cannot be expected to compensate for a flawed design " just about sums up the problem. Sully also talks about pilots being overwhelmed by issues that should not arise in the first place. By Boeings own admission, the average 737NG pilot should be able to fly the Max without much difficulty. The average pilot is also likely the one to be overwhelmed by the situation. And average pilots dominate the world skies. Its the manufacturer who should be making things safer for these pilots , not the other way round.

The main (sole?) admission Boeing has made is that they put too much workload on the pilots, so it would seem that this is no longer in dispute.
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XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:11 pm

https://www.enotrans.org/article/house- ... s-737-max/

For those who like a longer read, the site provides link to all the written testimonies to the house on the 19th inst.

Ray
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:21 pm

speedking wrote:
par13del wrote:
Since the main issue is related to the MAX and its similarity to the NG, it would have been good to have more current NG experts versus Airbus.
Just a thought


Yes. Unfortunately the 2 pilots most experienced with MAX are not here anymore.

Incorrect, we actually have 3 LionAir pilots who not only flew the MAX but actually had an MCAS issue and successfully landed the a/c, actually, they continued the flight rather than returning to base. One has to wonder why Boeing is not including those 3 pilots in their campaign to unground the MAX.
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:26 pm

par13del wrote:
speedking wrote:
par13del wrote:
Since the main issue is related to the MAX and its similarity to the NG, it would have been good to have more current NG experts versus Airbus.
Just a thought


Yes. Unfortunately the 2 pilots most experienced with MAX are not here anymore.

Incorrect, we actually have 3 LionAir pilots who not only flew the MAX but actually had an MCAS issue and successfully landed the a/c, actually, they continued the flight rather than returning to base. One has to wonder why Boeing is not including those 3 pilots in their campaign to unground the MAX.


Perhaps those pilots know how lucky they actually were and would not be positive witnesses for Boeing.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:41 pm

StTim wrote:
Perhaps those pilots know how lucky they actually were and would not be positive witnesses for Boeing.

In which case, LionAir and its regulators should be using their testimony to ensure that the fixes to the MAX make it safe as they have chosen NOT TO CANCEL their order and remove the a/c from their fleet.
Sending those 3 pilots to the USA should be a priority, either they say how they survived due to luck in which case the fixes will be much better, or they will say the MCAS event was actually manageable, in which case the fixes would still be done as the a/c is grounded.
We are hearing from every Tom, Dick and Harry experts except the 3 pilots who survived the death trap MCAS, I am just shocked that no one is beating down their doors to have them speak up, good or bad, it smacks of some other agenda.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:55 pm

The trim wheel force complaint by APA is interesting. Will MAX hardware changes be required inside the cockpit?
What should be done? Enlarge the trim wheel? Not enough space. Bigger trim wheel handle? Might hit the FO's legs even harder.
 
bgm
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:05 pm

Noshow wrote:
The trim wheel force complaint by APA is interesting. Will MAX hardware changes be required inside the cockpit?
What should be done? Enlarge the trim wheel? Not enough space. Bigger trim wheel handle? Might hit the FO's legs even harder.


This is what happens when you grandfather yourself into a corner. All the issues with the max are because Boeing have to keep making changes because of the fundamental design of the airframe, primarily the stubby landing gear with clearance for the JT8D, but not for the LEAP 1B. Then it just cascades from there, with the trim wheel being another example.

Basically, they pushed the design too far and this is the result.
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:15 pm

bgm wrote:
Noshow wrote:
The trim wheel force complaint by APA is interesting. Will MAX hardware changes be required inside the cockpit?
What should be done? Enlarge the trim wheel? Not enough space. Bigger trim wheel handle? Might hit the FO's legs even harder.


This is what happens when you grandfather yourself into a corner. All the issues with the max are because Boeing have to keep making changes because of the fundamental design of the airframe, primarily the stubby landing gear with clearance for the JT8D, but not for the LEAP 1B. Then it just cascades from there, with the trim wheel being another example.

Basically, they pushed the design too far and this is the result.

Comparing the 737-8/9 MAX to the first 737 iteration, Boeing have modified almost everything. The priority of the changes is the problem. While there use on the 737-8/9 MAX the most recent engines and displays, there forget to analyse the consequences on the very outdated flight control system. The perceived that flight control system as a solid foundation that have the highest flight record in the industry and expected that there could safely add new automation around it, as long as an established procedure already exists in case of a failure, There was so confident in that way of designing that there did not take the time to carefully doing a full safety assessment. The are doing it now and the MCAS v2 is the result. It will most probably be enough to bring back the 737-8/9 MAX into the sky, but the other story is that the certification regulation is likely to change at least in some regions to make the "grandfathering" more challenging, maybe to the point that designing a FBW 737 would be the best option in the future. I fully agree with the Ethiopian Airline CEO that the 737 flight control system must be completely redesigned. And Boeing not only know that either, but have all the experience and resources to do a FBW 737. The major issue is to train and license enough pilots to a possibly new future type rating.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:29 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
bgm wrote:
Noshow wrote:
The trim wheel force complaint by APA is interesting. Will MAX hardware changes be required inside the cockpit?
What should be done? Enlarge the trim wheel? Not enough space. Bigger trim wheel handle? Might hit the FO's legs even harder.


This is what happens when you grandfather yourself into a corner. All the issues with the max are because Boeing have to keep making changes because of the fundamental design of the airframe, primarily the stubby landing gear with clearance for the JT8D, but not for the LEAP 1B. Then it just cascades from there, with the trim wheel being another example.

Basically, they pushed the design too far and this is the result.

Comparing the 737-8/9 MAX to the first 737 iteration, Boeing have modified almost everything. The priority of the changes is the problem. While there use on the 737-8/9 MAX the most recent engines and displays, there forget to analyse the consequences on the very outdated flight control system. The perceived that flight control system as a solid foundation that have the highest flight record in the industry and expected that there could safely add new automation around it, as long as an established procedure already exists in case of a failure, There was so confident in that way of designing that there did not take the time to carefully doing a full safety assessment. The are doing it now and the MCAS v2 is the result. It will most probably be enough to bring back the 737-8/9 MAX into the sky, but the other story is that the certification regulation is likely to change at least in some regions to make the "grandfathering" more challenging, maybe to the point that designing a FBW 737 would be the best option in the future. I fully agree with the Ethiopian Airline CEO that the 737 flight control system must be completely redesigned. And Boeing not only know that either, but have all the experience and resources to do a FBW 737. The major issue is to train and license enough pilots to a possibly new future type rating.


A FBW 737 will be the NSA. It would make absolutely no sense to take the 737 and change the flight controls to FBW, at least the full computer controlled FBW that I assume you are referring to. They changed the spoilers to FBW on the MAX but that is just saving weight by using electric actuation commands to do the exact same thing that the cables and whatever else did on the prior generations.

If you ripped out the guts and made it full FBW there is no way they could keep the same type certificate. Even if the flight characteristics mimicked the existing 737, there would be too many system changes (including the removal of the fully manual backup).
 
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spinotter
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:44 pm

bgm wrote:
Noshow wrote:
The trim wheel force complaint by APA is interesting. Will MAX hardware changes be required inside the cockpit?
What should be done? Enlarge the trim wheel? Not enough space. Bigger trim wheel handle? Might hit the FO's legs even harder.


This is what happens when you grandfather yourself into a corner. All the issues with the max are because Boeing have to keep making changes because of the fundamental design of the airframe, primarily the stubby landing gear with clearance for the JT8D, but not for the LEAP 1B. Then it just cascades from there, with the trim wheel being another example.

Basically, they pushed the design too far and this is the result.


Yes. And to save a dime, they may be losing a dollar. Someone at Boeing should have seen what was happening and stopped it. Why did this not happen? For future isues, I hope the internal investigators can figure out how to make sure that this kind of thing does not happen again.
 
LJ
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:57 pm

par13del wrote:
speedking wrote:
par13del wrote:
Since the main issue is related to the MAX and its similarity to the NG, it would have been good to have more current NG experts versus Airbus.
Just a thought


Yes. Unfortunately the 2 pilots most experienced with MAX are not here anymore.

Incorrect, we actually have 3 LionAir pilots who not only flew the MAX but actually had an MCAS issue and successfully landed the a/c, actually, they continued the flight rather than returning to base. One has to wonder why Boeing is not including those 3 pilots in their campaign to unground the MAX.


Maybe because it shouldn't need 3 pilots to control a 737?
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:03 pm

spinotter wrote:
bgm wrote:
Noshow wrote:
The trim wheel force complaint by APA is interesting. Will MAX hardware changes be required inside the cockpit?
What should be done? Enlarge the trim wheel? Not enough space. Bigger trim wheel handle? Might hit the FO's legs even harder.


This is what happens when you grandfather yourself into a corner. All the issues with the max are because Boeing have to keep making changes because of the fundamental design of the airframe, primarily the stubby landing gear with clearance for the JT8D, but not for the LEAP 1B. Then it just cascades from there, with the trim wheel being another example.

Basically, they pushed the design too far and this is the result.


Yes. And to save a dime, they may be losing a dollar. Someone at Boeing should have seen what was happening and stopped it. Why did this not happen? For future isues, I hope the internal investigators can figure out how to make sure that this kind of thing does not happen again.


Except that the force required to move the trim wheel under extreme aerodynamic loads has been extremely high going back to the 737-100. The slight change in wheel diameter may have made it require slightly more force in the NG.

Also, using the wheel is apparently not difficult when under normal aerodynamic loads. Lion Air 043 is evidence of this as they used the wheel to trim for well over an hour and elected to continue to the destination. The wheel as a backup was likely designed to be used mostly if the trim motor failed. It was always known (as evidenced by the "roller coaster" procedure) that if something caused a severe out of trim state and the manual wheel was required, the loads would need to be alleviated or it wouldn't work. This has been true since the very first 737 rolled off the line.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:05 pm

LJ wrote:
par13del wrote:
speedking wrote:

Yes. Unfortunately the 2 pilots most experienced with MAX are not here anymore.

Incorrect, we actually have 3 LionAir pilots who not only flew the MAX but actually had an MCAS issue and successfully landed the a/c, actually, they continued the flight rather than returning to base. One has to wonder why Boeing is not including those 3 pilots in their campaign to unground the MAX.


Maybe because it shouldn't need 3 pilots to control a 737?


It doesn't. It just happens that the third pilot was trained well enough and skilled enough to recognize the failure as a runaway stabilizer. If the same pilot had been one of only two pilots he would have likely had the same recognition.
 
9Patch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:14 pm

LJ wrote:
Maybe because it shouldn't need 3 pilots to control a 737?

But two of them didn't know what to do.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:29 pm

planecane wrote:
spinotter wrote:
bgm wrote:

This is what happens when you grandfather yourself into a corner. All the issues with the max are because Boeing have to keep making changes because of the fundamental design of the airframe, primarily the stubby landing gear with clearance for the JT8D, but not for the LEAP 1B. Then it just cascades from there, with the trim wheel being another example.

Basically, they pushed the design too far and this is the result.


Yes. And to save a dime, they may be losing a dollar. Someone at Boeing should have seen what was happening and stopped it. Why did this not happen? For future isues, I hope the internal investigators can figure out how to make sure that this kind of thing does not happen again.


Except that the force required to move the trim wheel under extreme aerodynamic loads has been extremely high going back to the 737-100. The slight change in wheel diameter may have made it require slightly more force in the NG.

Also, using the wheel is apparently not difficult when under normal aerodynamic loads. Lion Air 043 is evidence of this as they used the wheel to trim for well over an hour and elected to continue to the destination. The wheel as a backup was likely designed to be used mostly if the trim motor failed. It was always known (as evidenced by the "roller coaster" procedure) that if something caused a severe out of trim state and the manual wheel was required, the loads would need to be alleviated or it wouldn't work. This has been true since the very first 737 rolled off the line.

Sure. And the FAA has questioned the trim wheel system. They have rules against emergency procedures requiring both pilots. It seems that the different certification requirements of the past have produced a plane which would not be certifiable today.

When the trim wheel size was changed, should the trim wheel system not have become a candidate for new certification then?
 
mm320cap
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:36 pm

Where I disagree with Sully is whether SIM training is needed AT THIS POINT. With the MCAS fix in place and from what I hear, successful, future MCAS failure events should be a non-issue. So what needs to be seen in the simulator?

If the MCAS software fix HADN’T been done, I completely agree that simulation would absolutely be required to prepare and train for that potential occurrence.

As a B737 Check Airman, I feel comfortable with the fix and would fly a MAX with the new software after a CBT explaining the MCAS functionality and failure procedure.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:55 pm

mm320cap wrote:
Where I disagree with Sully is whether SIM training is needed AT THIS POINT. With the MCAS fix in place and from what I hear, successful, future MCAS failure events should be a non-issue. So what needs to be seen in the simulator?

If the MCAS software fix HADN’T been done, I completely agree that simulation would absolutely be required to prepare and train for that potential occurrence.

As a B737 Check Airman, I feel comfortable with the fix and would fly a MAX with the new software after a CBT explaining the MCAS functionality and failure procedure.

The question of training would be applicable more broadly to a runaway stab trim situation. Or, do we not bother training for it, and simply rely on the NG’s statistical record of it being an extremely low probability?
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:13 pm

9Patch wrote:
LJ wrote:
Maybe because it shouldn't need 3 pilots to control a 737?

But two of them didn't know what to do.

Maybe you hit the nail on the head as to the reason why these pilots are MIA on the big stage.
Two of them did not know what to do, a third pilot in the cockpit did, and without a 3 month training course, any simulator time, no iPAD training, they were able to follow verbal instructions and not only control the MCAS death actions, but accept that it was no big deal for them to continue the flight.
We know what happened and what they did, so why hide them, what agenda does it serve to not have them front and center in the MAX return to flight?
 
SteinarN
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:29 pm

In addition, we have a new failure mode on the MAX, namely inoperable MCAS v.2 due to AoA disagree. I think training for the behaviour of the aircraft near stall with inoperable MCAS needs to be considered.

Because we have required stall training, how to recover from the onset of a stalll, right? Since the MAX without MCAS seems to have substantially different pitch characteristics starting at an AoA several (4 degrees?) before stall onset one can make the claim that stall recovery on a MAX without MCAS is substantially different than on the preceeding NG.

The stall recovery of a non-MCAS MAX, together with general stabilizer runaway training, IMO makes for a compelling case for requiring sim training before service entry.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:32 pm

par13del wrote:
9Patch wrote:
LJ wrote:
Maybe because it shouldn't need 3 pilots to control a 737?

But two of them didn't know what to do.

Maybe you hit the nail on the head as to the reason why these pilots are MIA on the big stage.
Two of them did not know what to do, a third pilot in the cockpit did, and without a 3 month training course, any simulator time, no iPAD training, they were able to follow verbal instructions and not only control the MCAS death actions, but accept that it was no big deal for them to continue the flight.
We know what happened and what they did, so why hide them, what agenda does it serve to not have them front and center in the MAX return to flight?

The only agenda I see is your own. The crew were interviewed and the flight examined by the investigation team. A selective summary can be seen in the JT610 Preliminary Report. The information gleaned will be available to the regulators (and Boeing I would presume). Their ability to talk to anyone outside the investigation team and regulators will be severely limited by confidentiality requirements as both part of the investigation and as employed pilots - as is normal.

Ray
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:43 pm

So the people who actually survived a MCAS action has less to offer on the a/c that is grounded by MCAS than an A320 pilot who landed in the Hudson, you believe they have nothing to offer outside of the incident they safely navigated?
I disagree, hopefully I am allowed that option.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:57 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
Sully is spot-on, IMHO.


Sully is a hypocrite. He lobbied for the 1500 hour and ATP minimum in the US. But thinks a 200 hour ab-initio FO at the controls of a 737 is ok? That FO was much closer to a student pilot than an airline FO. I will not fly with airlines that do on the job training. In the US both pilots are fully capable of flying the aircraft and work as a team.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:01 pm

par13del wrote:
So the people who actually survived a MCAS action has less to offer on the a/c that is grounded by MCAS than an A320 pilot who landed in the Hudson, you believe they have nothing to offer outside of the incident they safely navigated?
I disagree, hopefully I am allowed that option.

Airman Certificate info is a public record, and a lookup at https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/Main.aspx shows he is type rated on 737:

    CHESLEY BURNETT SULLENBERGER III

    Certificate: AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
    Date of Issue: 8/24/2015

    Ratings:
    AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
    AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
    AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
    COMMERCIAL PRIVILEGES
    GLIDER

    Type Ratings:
    A/A-320 A/AVR-146 A/B-737 A/BAE-146 A/CE-510S
    A/DC-6 A/DC-7 A/DC-9 A/LR-JET

    Limits:
    ENGLISH PROFICIENT.
    A-320 CIRC. APCH. - VMC ONLY.
    DC-6 DC-7 SIC PRIVILEGES ONLY.

Not sure where he picked that up, but US Airways sure did have an odd fleet mix back in the 80s and 90s.

He is also a USAF graduate and a qualified aviation accident investigator.

Personally I agree with his point of view that 'muscle memory' is important and I would think something more than an iPad session should be accomplished.

If a sim is overkill, I would think some happy medium could be found.

I know in my glider days we'd get instructor checkouts on the ground before we went up in single seat gliders, and I found those helpful.

We'd do things like operate the trim and the spoilers just to show we knew how to use them.

Personally, I would think a session on the 'roller coaster' technique would be worthwhile.

You never know if/when such knowledge would come in handy.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
macc
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:33 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
https://www.enotrans.org/article/house-panel-lets-pilots-airlines-discuss-737-max/

For those who like a longer read, the site provides link to all the written testimonies to the house on the 19th inst.

Ray



Sad enough that its Sara Nelson from the Flight Attendant Association which puts the others to shame, giving the most profound account of the flawed development of certification procedures. One would expect that from an airline pilot association or the former FAA administrator.

Well done, Sara Nelson!
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:43 pm

Sully credentials speak for themselves and is not questioned, however he never flew a MAX much less one that experienced an MCAS event. Now does that mean he has nothing to say, no, but does that mean that on MCAS issues he has more to contribute than the 3 pilots who survived the event? Sully credentials should in no way diminish or cause us to ignore the fact that we have 3 pilots who lived the event.
Everyone knows that 2 a/c experienced an MCAS event and crashed killing 300+, everyone knows the a/c is grounded because MCAS is faulty, do all these people also know that one a/c survived an MCAS event successfully? Their knowledge of the event should be helpful in resolving the FAR's on the feel of the a/c being similar to the NG, how easy / difficult it was to control, I think they have much more to contribute than the preliminary report of their incident, which was not a fatal accident, any reason why their event should take over a year for full public release?
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:46 pm

The way some will attack anyone who does not conform to their views astounds me.

I will await the final accident reports before passing comments on the pilots.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:59 pm

macc wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
https://www.enotrans.org/article/house-panel-lets-pilots-airlines-discuss-737-max/

For those who like a longer read, the site provides link to all the written testimonies to the house on the 19th inst.

Ray



Sad enough that its Sara Nelson from the Flight Attendant Association which puts the others to shame, giving the most profound account of the flawed development of certification procedures. One would expect that from an airline pilot association or the former FAA administrator.

Well done, Sara Nelson!

Very thoroughly researched and presented testimony, linking to an issue top of flight attendants minds for decades.

Amazing to see 'scaling' creeping into every aspect of certification, from evacuation, to structure, to systems. And then those new scaled values become the 'base' for yet more untested scaling.

One of the expert quotes used, mirrors the concerns repeatedly raised by poster 'Interested' - “Human error is a symptom of a system that needs to be redesigned.”

Wonder if any participants have been invited to Montreal in the next few days as guests of CATC, EASA, JCAB and CAAC?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:39 pm

par13del wrote:
Sully credentials speak for themselves and is not questioned, however he never flew a MAX much less one that experienced an MCAS event.


How many of those highly trained, vastly experienced, super skilled American pilots have? How many of them have experienced "an MCAS event" while a pile of other issues are ongoing in the cockpit at the same time?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:34 pm

scbriml wrote:
How many of those highly trained, vastly experienced, super skilled American pilots have? How many of them have experienced "an MCAS event" while a pile of other issues are ongoing in the cockpit at the same time?

Ahh...someone who finally get's it.
None of them, but all over the MAX threads we hear about Mentour and his simulation of the MCAS event and a bunch of other experts, apparently no one actually wants to listen to 3 pilots who actually experienced the event, live witness to how the thing actually worked (meaning MCAS ver 1), one has to wonder why. All we are told is to read a preliminary report of their non-fatal flight.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:06 pm

So developed world pilots from Europe and the USA have something to contribute on the MCAS issue, how it is handled and what the pilots in the fatal flight encountered, but 3 pilots who actually experienced the event are only capable of uttering expletives?
I guess its my bad that I have more respect for them and believe they could offer greater insights than someone who wants to program a simulator from the comfort of the ground, their preliminary report does seem to indicate they are professional pilots.
 
speedking
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:57 am

I believe we all agree that everything around 737MAX is the cheapest in the industry?
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:25 am

par13del wrote:
So developed world pilots from Europe and the USA have something to contribute on the MCAS issue, how it is handled and what the pilots in the fatal flight encountered, but 3 pilots who actually experienced the event are only capable of uttering expletives?
I guess its my bad that I have more respect for them and believe they could offer greater insights than someone who wants to program a simulator from the comfort of the ground, their preliminary report does seem to indicate they are professional pilots.

Why are you assuming nobody has interviewed the Lion Air 043 pilots? They don't need to testify in a dog and pony show Congressional hearing where none of the committee members know what a horizonal stabilizer is.

I can guarantee you that they were interviewed by the Indonesian investigators at bare minimum. Most likely they have been interviewed by the FAA, EASA, etc.

Having them testify for the US Congress would do nothing constructive but give a politician that wants to give Boeing "a pass" something to point to. To a layman, testimony that all it took to recover from an "impossible situation" was flipping 2 switches will lead to the conclusion that the pilots if the crash flights were the main problem. That is not my belief but that case can be presented and seem plausible with their testimony.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:46 am

par13del wrote:
Sully credentials speak for themselves and is not questioned, however he never flew a MAX much less one that experienced an MCAS event. Now does that mean he has nothing to say, no, but does that mean that on MCAS issues he has more to contribute than the 3 pilots who survived the event? Sully credentials should in no way diminish or cause us to ignore the fact that we have 3 pilots who lived the event.
Everyone knows that 2 a/c experienced an MCAS event and crashed killing 300+, everyone knows the a/c is grounded because MCAS is faulty, do all these people also know that one a/c survived an MCAS event successfully? Their knowledge of the event should be helpful in resolving the FAR's on the feel of the a/c being similar to the NG, how easy / difficult it was to control, I think they have much more to contribute than the preliminary report of their incident, which was not a fatal accident, any reason why their event should take over a year for full public release?


Sully is a credible expert witness. His evidence supports what we heard from other experts.

Meanwhile, 400 pilots join class action.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-23/ ... x/11238282

The originating plaintiff, known as Pilot X —who has chosen to remain anonymous for "fear of reprisal from Boeing and discrimination from Boeing customers" — lodged the statement of claim on Friday, which seeks damages for them and more than 400 colleagues who work for the same airline.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:54 am

Sancho99504 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:


I feel that, after reading post trips on some of these overruns, getthereitis seems to be the biggest culprit. Instead of going around, being put back into the queue, reestablishing the approach, landing, writing a report on the go around, etc., these pilots pushed the envelope. That is a sign of impatience, which you can't train away. You can deter the behavior with stiff punishment, but patience isn't trainable.

Colgan 3407 should have diverted or at the minimum, held until conditions improved.
Miami Air 293 should have gone around
Southwest 1455 should have gone around
Southwest 1248 should have gone around
Southwest 278......
American 331


This list is quite long.


Colgan 3407 didn’t need to divert or hold because weather wasn’t an issue that night.

GF

You might want to go read the accident report.
Light snow and fog.
Renslow and Shaw talked about significant ice build up on the control surfaces and windshield AND the previous 2 arrivals talked about significant icing conditions on approach.


And icing was neither causal nor contributory to crash. I’ve read it several times, yes BUF in the winter has icing but it isn’t the reason for the stall, improper handling of it and the crash

GF
 
mm320cap
Posts: 297
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:47 am

aerolimani wrote:
mm320cap wrote:
Where I disagree with Sully is whether SIM training is needed AT THIS POINT. With the MCAS fix in place and from what I hear, successful, future MCAS failure events should be a non-issue. So what needs to be seen in the simulator?

If the MCAS software fix HADN’T been done, I completely agree that simulation would absolutely be required to prepare and train for that potential occurrence.

As a B737 Check Airman, I feel comfortable with the fix and would fly a MAX with the new software after a CBT explaining the MCAS functionality and failure procedure.

The question of training would be applicable more broadly to a runaway stab trim situation. Or, do we not bother training for it, and simply rely on the NG’s statistical record of it being an extremely low probability?


Good question. Runaway pitch trim is not something we encounter in recurrent training. It’s been awhile, so I’m not 100% sure, but I don’t recall it being an initial training event either. But that’s true on every plane I’ve flown, not just the B737. Should it be past of a new recurrent scenario? I think so... But I’m not sure that would need specialized MAX training.
 
planecane
Posts: 871
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:59 am

mm320cap wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
mm320cap wrote:
Where I disagree with Sully is whether SIM training is needed AT THIS POINT. With the MCAS fix in place and from what I hear, successful, future MCAS failure events should be a non-issue. So what needs to be seen in the simulator?

If the MCAS software fix HADN’T been done, I completely agree that simulation would absolutely be required to prepare and train for that potential occurrence.

As a B737 Check Airman, I feel comfortable with the fix and would fly a MAX with the new software after a CBT explaining the MCAS functionality and failure procedure.

The question of training would be applicable more broadly to a runaway stab trim situation. Or, do we not bother training for it, and simply rely on the NG’s statistical record of it being an extremely low probability?


Good question. Runaway pitch trim is not something we encounter in recurrent training. It’s been awhile, so I’m not 100% sure, but I don’t recall it being an initial training event either. But that’s true on every plane I’ve flown, not just the B737. Should it be past of a new recurrent scenario? I think so... But I’m not sure that would need specialized MAX training.


If runaway pitch trim only happens 1 in 50 million flights or something rare on that scale, I think I'd rather pilots spend their training time on situations that are somewhat likely to happen once in a blue moon. At least on the 737, by far the biggest cause of runaway stabilizer was caused by MCAS and that will now be disabled with an opposite trim input which should be pretty instinctive and not really require special training.

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