MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:17 pm

PW100 wrote:
You are not addressing my point. The point was that the certification system should (have) demonstrate(d) that the design was safe. Of course one can debate to death what constitutes as safe, but fact is that the two crashes revealed serious issues (MCAS 1.0) which that certification system was unable to detect. So it is very obvious that the first thing after correcting MCAS, is the question if there are perhaps other issues might have that escaped through the very same certification system. That is not politics, but engineering 101. And just in case, for those binary minds: please note that this is not claiming the thing is unsafe and that there must be other issues.

Further I never claimed any sort of "standard for safety" in my message (it was brought up by yourself). It is beyond me why you would bring that up and turn that into something against me claiming that "would mean no new airplane would ever take to the skies".


Oh I got your point. I just pointed out how it was irrational. The plane is grounded because of two crashes. It isn't grounded because something was found regarding certification.

If you want to keep it grounded until it proves the unprovable, that's a different point. I recommend making that point before you expect someone to address it.

And oh, yes, you positively made a "standard for safety" inference that would mean no new or grounded airplane would ever take to your skies.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:02 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
PW100 wrote:
You are not addressing my point. The point was that the certification system should (have) demonstrate(d) that the design was safe. Of course one can debate to death what constitutes as safe, but fact is that the two crashes revealed serious issues (MCAS 1.0) which that certification system was unable to detect. So it is very obvious that the first thing after correcting MCAS, is the question if there are perhaps other issues might have that escaped through the very same certification system. That is not politics, but engineering 101. And just in case, for those binary minds: please note that this is not claiming the thing is unsafe and that there must be other issues.

Further I never claimed any sort of "standard for safety" in my message (it was brought up by yourself). It is beyond me why you would bring that up and turn that into something against me claiming that "would mean no new airplane would ever take to the skies".


Oh I got your point. I just pointed out how it was irrational. The plane is grounded because of two crashes. It isn't grounded because something was found regarding certification.

If you want to keep it grounded until it proves the unprovable, that's a different point. I recommend making that point before you expect someone to address it.

And oh, yes, you positively made a "standard for safety" inference that would mean no new or grounded airplane would ever take to your skies.

The irrational is to try to separate the safety certification and cashes. PW100 is fully right that the safety certification is the tools that must ensure that commercial aircraft are safe according to the rules defined by the administration. The safety certification not only define the requirements but how the compliance tests must be done and interpreted. This also ensure that proper quality assurance and safety assessment activities are done. In the case of the 737-8/9 MAX this whole edifice is now under heavy analysis to understand how things could have deteriorated to that point without notice. The crashes was both the consequences of the bad safety activities and the revelation of the bad safety activities. Crashes can't be undo, unfortunately, so the only possible way to ensure safety is to fix the safety activities including certification review that ultimately will allow to underground the 737-8/9 MAX.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:08 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
PW100 wrote:
You are not addressing my point. The point was that the certification system should (have) demonstrate(d) that the design was safe. Of course one can debate to death what constitutes as safe, but fact is that the two crashes revealed serious issues (MCAS 1.0) which that certification system was unable to detect. So it is very obvious that the first thing after correcting MCAS, is the question if there are perhaps other issues might have that escaped through the very same certification system. That is not politics, but engineering 101. And just in case, for those binary minds: please note that this is not claiming the thing is unsafe and that there must be other issues.

Further I never claimed any sort of "standard for safety" in my message (it was brought up by yourself). It is beyond me why you would bring that up and turn that into something against me claiming that "would mean no new airplane would ever take to the skies".


Oh I got your point. I just pointed out how it was irrational. The plane is grounded because of two crashes. It isn't grounded because something was found regarding certification.

If you want to keep it grounded until it proves the unprovable, that's a different point. I recommend making that point before you expect someone to address it.

And oh, yes, you positively made a "standard for safety" inference that would mean no new or grounded airplane would ever take to your skies.

The irrational is to try to separate the safety certification and cashes. PW100 is fully right that the safety certification is the tools that must ensure that commercial aircraft are safe according to the rules defined by the administration. The safety certification not only define the requirements but how the compliance tests must be done and interpreted. This also ensure that proper quality assurance and safety assessment activities are done. In the case of the 737-8/9 MAX this whole edifice is now under heavy analysis to understand how things could have deteriorated to that point without notice. The crashes was both the consequences of the bad safety activities and the revelation of the bad safety activities. Crashes can't be undo, unfortunately, so the only possible way to ensure safety is to fix the safety activities including certification review that ultimately will allow to underground the 737-8/9 MAX.

Was there a gap, or was there not a gap? I guess you can't think of everything that might go wrong, but with MCAS, everything they're fixing doesn't seem out of the realm of prediction. It's not like it was some previously unknown phenomena.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:41 pm

jomur wrote:
planecane wrote:
The point of this post is to point out that the MAX design, even with MCAS 1.0, hasn't been shown to inherently unsafe.


If it wasn't inherently unsafe why is it grounded worldwide then? You don't ground safe airplanes.
People on the street see its grounded and will say its unsafe to fly


Because, if you had read what I wrote and understood the point, the pilots did not respond to the failures as expected in two cases. Therefore, it was likely that more pilots would not respond as expected due to lack of training or lack of understanding of the AD. The design itself isn't inherently unsafe in that if the intended procedure was followed an MCAS 1.0 failure was recoverable. This is evidenced by Lion Air 043 where the failure was recognized (by a 3rd pilot that happened to be there) and they responded as Boeing expected and they were able to continue to the destination without difficulty.

I have stated over and over and over and over and over and over again that the design was terrible. I have also stated that I think that inadequate training is what led to the two crews not responding properly. Part of that inadequate training is because Boeing didn't recommend training for MCAS, although I can see their position that the failure should have been recognized as a runaway stabilizer. I believe the inadequate training applies to runaway stabilizer in general, not just MCAS induced runaway stabilzer on the MAX.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:46 pm

planecane wrote:
jomur wrote:
planecane wrote:
The point of this post is to point out that the MAX design, even with MCAS 1.0, hasn't been shown to inherently unsafe.


If it wasn't inherently unsafe why is it grounded worldwide then? You don't ground safe airplanes.
People on the street see its grounded and will say its unsafe to fly


Because, if you had read what I wrote and understood the point, the pilots did not respond to the failures as expected in two cases. Therefore, it was likely that more pilots would not respond as expected due to lack of training or lack of understanding of the AD. The design itself isn't inherently unsafe in that if the intended procedure was followed an MCAS 1.0 failure was recoverable. This is evidenced by Lion Air 043 where the failure was recognized (by a 3rd pilot that happened to be there) and they responded as Boeing unexpected and they were able to continue to the destination without difficulty.

I have stated over and over and over and over and over and over again that the design was terrible. I have also stated that I think that inadequate training is what led to the two crews not responding properly. Part of that inadequate training is because Boeing didn't recommend training for MCAS, although I can see their position that the failure should have been recognized as a runaway stabilizer. I believe the inadequate training applies to runaway stabilizer in general, not just MCAS induced runaway stabilzer on the MAX.

Pilots did not respond as expected by Boeing not only because of the lack of training and/or lack of understanding of the AD, but also because runaway stabilized was hard to recognize, not the only event at that time, and the psychological effect of an expected situation must be taken in account.

The MCAS v1 design as installed in the 737-8/9 MAX is inherently unsafe, breaking multiple very important safety certification rules, like not controlling important control surface from a single sensor, loss of elevator authority, confusing alert, lack of adequate failure mode analysis, etc.. If the certification rules was strictly followed, the MCAS v1 would never have been on commercial flights. The fact that only 1 in 7 pilots have intuitively found the right survival procedure is the scariest thing imaginable from a safety point of view. No pax, pilots, operators, or authorities want to ever fly in that context.

Each time you try to blame pilot or pilots training, keep in mind that as today Boeing still expect to release 737-8/9 MAX MCAS v2 without additional training. Until this officially change, the fix will be 100% Boeing and 0% pilots. And even in case of some training will be required, each pilot will clearly not pass as much time on it than Boeing fixing the MCAS, so the percentage will still be largely on the Boeing side.
 
trini81
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:50 pm

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/26/poli ... index.html

Havent seen it posted before... it seems a New flaw discovered on Boeing 737 Max.
"In simulator tests, government pilots discovered that a microprocessor failure could push the nose of the plane toward the ground. It is not known whether the microprocessor played a role in either crash.
When testing the potential failure of the microprocessor in the simulators, "it was difficult for the test pilots to recover in a matter of seconds," one of the sources said. "And if you can't recover in a matter of seconds, that's an unreasonable risk."
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:04 pm

 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:07 pm

trini81 wrote:
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/26/politics/boeing-737-max-flaw/index.html

Havent seen it posted before... it seems a New flaw discovered on Boeing 737 Max.
"In simulator tests, government pilots discovered that a microprocessor failure could push the nose of the plane toward the ground. It is not known whether the microprocessor played a role in either crash.
When testing the potential failure of the microprocessor in the simulators, "it was difficult for the test pilots to recover in a matter of seconds," one of the sources said. "And if you can't recover in a matter of seconds, that's an unreasonable risk."

Can we now put the myth to rest that the FAA is just rubber stamping whatever Boeing says? Clearly there is real testing and analysis by the FAA.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:19 pm

planecane wrote:
trini81 wrote:
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/26/politics/boeing-737-max-flaw/index.html

Havent seen it posted before... it seems a New flaw discovered on Boeing 737 Max.
"In simulator tests, government pilots discovered that a microprocessor failure could push the nose of the plane toward the ground. It is not known whether the microprocessor played a role in either crash.
When testing the potential failure of the microprocessor in the simulators, "it was difficult for the test pilots to recover in a matter of seconds," one of the sources said. "And if you can't recover in a matter of seconds, that's an unreasonable risk."

Can we now put the myth to rest that the FAA is just rubber stamping whatever Boeing says? Clearly there is real testing and analysis by the FAA.

"FAA is just rubber stamping whatever Boeing says" was the case before the grounding, including the EAD. The best proof is precisely that now that "real testing and analysis by the FAA" are in place there discover multiple issues. This fully demonstrate that the main cause was bad safety activities inside Boeing.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:20 pm

Presumably the FAA and other aviation authorities have more issues, anomalies and defects in the bank from testing and whistle blowers.

So long as Boeing keep saying we are being open and honest, the authorities will keep drip feeding new problems, until what is said and actions align.
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:26 pm

trini81 wrote:
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/26/politics/boeing-737-max-flaw/index.html

Havent seen it posted before... it seems a New flaw discovered on Boeing 737 Max.
"In simulator tests, government pilots discovered that a microprocessor failure could push the nose of the plane toward the ground. It is not known whether the microprocessor played a role in either crash.
When testing the potential failure of the microprocessor in the simulators, "it was difficult for the test pilots to recover in a matter of seconds," one of the sources said. "And if you can't recover in a matter of seconds, that's an unreasonable risk."

That is weird. Did not they test the hell out of the fixed system before inviting "government pilots" for a test drive? That is unsurpassed level of lameness if it is true. I'm having hard time believing it. But then again, I also could not believe how badly MCAS 1.0 was implemented.
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:27 pm

ArgentoSystems wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

The software upgrade was started practically the day after the first crash.

Interesting to know. One question keeps bothering me is why was not grounding recommended then? Considering you had problems with compliance to the new CFR 25.1302 so quick fix was not coming. I mean you knew at the time that there is a flaw in your equipment. Fatal flaw, with potential for more catastrophes. Don't let people use the equipment.


Exactly my thoughts

Not only that. What's even more incredible was the attempt by Boeing to fight a grounding even after the second crash

Indefensible
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:39 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
smartplane wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

No, it's grounded because of a second crash that exposed a software issue.

It's not grounded because of thousands of uneventful flights and a lack of other issues being found in certification. Ironically your standard for "safe" would mean no new airplane would ever take to the skies.

The grounding continues, presumably because the FAA and other certification authorities have 'found' a number of issues, plus Boeing owned up to a few more, and perhaps whistle blowers have pointed to more possible shortcuts, deficiencies and poetic licence.


Not true. Your presumptions are incorrect. There is one issue and only one grounding the airplane.


Not according to today's articles BoeingGuy - albeit it looks like they've only recently discovered the separate microprocessor flaw

Wonder if either or both sets or pilots were impacted by this flaw as well ?
Last edited by Interested on Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:42 pm

smartplane wrote:
Boeing and it's PR crisis management company are managing communications internally and externally, across all media.

Since Lion, staff, contractors and suppliers have been repeatedly reminded of the rules surrounding confidentiality, dialogue with the media and contributions to social media.

Therefore, it would appear there are three types of Boeing employee contributors:

1. Maverick - Employee contributions at variance / disagree with Boeing statements. Shutdown long ago.

2. PR - Contributions consistent / agree with Boeing.

3. Delusional - Posing as employees.

As in the very recent disclosure of another 'issue', the absence of any Boeing insiders disclosing here first, confirms the 'Mavericks' have all been shut down, while the 'PR' team remain in strategic denial.


When was the last time anyone from Boeing officially tried to blame the pilots for any of this?
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:52 pm

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Interested wrote:
ArgentoSystems wrote:
Interesting to know. One question keeps bothering me is why was not grounding recommended then? Considering you had problems with compliance to the new CFR 25.1302 so quick fix was not coming. I mean you knew at the time that there is a flaw in your equipment. Fatal flaw, with potential for more catastrophes. Don't let people use the equipment.


Exactly my thoughts

Not only that. What's even more incredible was the attempt by Boeing to fight a grounding even after the second crash

Indefensible


This :checkmark: :bigthumbsup:


Absolute horror should have been the reaction from the Boeing decision makers when news of a second similar crash came through - surely??

The attempts to try and keep the planes flying even after that second crash really do show how detached from putting safety first Boeing had become

It's hard to fathom. Did they somehow think they could cover all the issues up and get away with it?
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:14 pm

trini81 wrote:
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/26/politics/boeing-737-max-flaw/index.html

Havent seen it posted before... it seems a New flaw discovered on Boeing 737 Max.
"In simulator tests, government pilots discovered that a microprocessor failure could push the nose of the plane toward the ground. It is not known whether the microprocessor played a role in either crash.
When testing the potential failure of the microprocessor in the simulators, "it was difficult for the test pilots to recover in a matter of seconds," one of the sources said. "And if you can't recover in a matter of seconds, that's an unreasonable risk."

Rhoo rhoo

Fault testing is interesting. Double faults must be tested in the lab/flight simulator. It sounds like one was found.

That's ok, I know if worse found in the lab (that is why software with real hardware is tested).

This will add 30 to 60 days to the grounding (my opinion). Possibly longer due to politics.

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nine4nine
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:14 pm

The MAX is a giant turd and should never have been developed. Boeing put suits, profit, and Wall Street ahead of a quality product that should have been a clean sheet design from the start. The 737 line should have been closed after the successful legacy of the classics and NG models. This is what happens when a business cuts corners to appease the profiteers pockets while sacrificing quality engineering and safety.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:21 pm

trini81 wrote:
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/26/politics/boeing-737-max-flaw/index.html

Havent seen it posted before... it seems a New flaw discovered on Boeing 737 Max.
"In simulator tests, government pilots discovered that a microprocessor failure could push the nose of the plane toward the ground. It is not known whether the microprocessor played a role in either crash.
When testing the potential failure of the microprocessor in the simulators, "it was difficult for the test pilots to recover in a matter of seconds," one of the sources said. "And if you can't recover in a matter of seconds, that's an unreasonable risk."

Does that mean they will need to physically replace all the flight control computers in existing aircrafts?
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:04 pm

I can't help it but notice that the all important news was leaked very close or after the trading day end.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:09 pm

You don't find news on the 737MAX here anymore. You see it somewhere else. This all in one thread drowns everything..

It seems we might see more then just a software update here, also a hardware update. PR might have to update statements and FAQ's
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737max/737-max-update.page

An investigation how this slipped through, who approved it, why, was there out side pressure. The same process as MCAS.

United just extended 737 Max cancellations until Sept 1st
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-ethiopia-airplane-ual/united-airlines-extends-737-max-cancellations-until-september-3-idUKKCN1TR35J
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chiad
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:31 pm

trini81 wrote:
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/26/politics/boeing-737-max-flaw/index.html

Havent seen it posted before... it seems a New flaw discovered on Boeing 737 Max.
"In simulator tests, government pilots discovered that a microprocessor failure could push the nose of the plane toward the ground. It is not known whether the microprocessor played a role in either crash.
When testing the potential failure of the microprocessor in the simulators, "it was difficult for the test pilots to recover in a matter of seconds," one of the sources said. "And if you can't recover in a matter of seconds, that's an unreasonable risk."


So .. no MAX' in service this year I assume.
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:44 pm

nine4nine wrote:
The MAX is a giant turd and should never have been developed. Boeing put suits, profit, and Wall Street ahead of a quality product that should have been a clean sheet design from the start. The 737 line should have been closed after the successful legacy of the classics and NG models. This is what happens when a business cuts corners to appease the profiteers pockets while sacrificing quality engineering and safety.


Love this, after all the technical back and forth, there's always a great reset post like this. So true, and gets more true every day and with each new revelation and this is coming from a former Boeing fan, they've lost me over this, just discontinue the crap-plane and get on with something great. Put the poor MAX out of it's misery already and get on with what Boeing used to be good at, building great clean-sheet airplanes.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:18 am

What the FAA Test Pilots have found in the simulator is that even with the software fix there isn't enough computing power in the microprocessor unit for MCAS for the pilots to recover from a runaway horizontal stabilizer situation quickly enough. So Boeing will have to go back to the drawing board and design and install a more robust microprocessor unit in MCAS in each grounded aircraft active and the ones that are undelivered.

So not only did Boeing desgn a faulty system but also they put in a microprocessor unit to control it that did not have enough computing power to keep up with it. This essentially hung the pilots out to dry when MCAS went beserk. Personally I feel this is a major setback for Boeing as the FAA is not going to allow this aircraft back in the air until this is all corrected which could mean sometime next year.

This also doesn't even begin to address the training issues.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:20 am

So my question is what does the microprocessor do, what did they test, pull a breaker, disable something else, does a microprocessor just sit there doing its own thing or is tied to something else?
 
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tenHangar
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:26 am

par13del wrote:
So my question is what does the microprocessor do, what did they test, pull a breaker, disable something else, does a microprocessor just sit there doing its own thing or is tied to something else?
Reuters is the source article of today's news: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKCN1TR30J

"Two people briefed on the matter told Reuters that an FAA test pilot during a simulator test last week was running scenarios seeking to intentionally activate the MCAS stall-prevention system. During one activation it took an extended period to recover the stabilizer trim system that is used to control the aircraft,... It was not clear if the situation that resulted in an uncommanded dive can be addressed with a software update or if it is a microprocessor issue that will require a hardware replacement. "
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:32 am

StTim wrote:

... which says:

The risk was discovered during a simulator test last week and it is not yet clear if the issue can be addressed with a software upgrade or will require a more complex hardware fix, sources with knowledge of the matter told Reuters.

So it might be the "microprocessor unit" itself, or the software running on the microprocessor unit, that is the root cause.

freakyrat wrote:
What the FAA Test Pilots have found in the simulator is that even with the software fix there isn't enough computing power in the microprocessor unit for MCAS for the pilots to recover from a runaway horizontal stabilizer situation quickly enough.

To clarify:

Two people briefed on the matter told Reuters that an FAA test pilot during a simulator test last week was running scenarios seeking to intentionally activate the MCAS stall-prevention system. During one activation it took an extended period to recover the stabilizer trim system that is used to control the aircraft, the people said.

I think this is a much less general statement than the one you made.

freakyrat wrote:
So not only did Boeing desgn a faulty system but also they put in a microprocessor unit to control it that did not have enough computing power to keep up with it.

See above. Microprocessor units run software. There's lots of software reasons why systems may not respond as fast as required.

The better question is why this case was found by FAA pilots and not Boeing pilots.
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LDRA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:59 am

trini81 wrote:
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/26/politics/boeing-737-max-flaw/index.html

Havent seen it posted before... it seems a New flaw discovered on Boeing 737 Max.
"In simulator tests, government pilots discovered that a microprocessor failure could push the nose of the plane toward the ground. It is not known whether the microprocessor played a role in either crash.
When testing the potential failure of the microprocessor in the simulators, "it was difficult for the test pilots to recover in a matter of seconds," one of the sources said. "And if you can't recover in a matter of seconds, that's an unreasonable risk."


Electronics HW failure? Now they are nit picking. The FCC box is carry over from 737NG right? There is probably enough in use data to prove this microprocessor failure has really low chance of occurring
 
ShamrockBoi330
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:13 am

LDRA wrote:
trini81 wrote:
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/26/politics/boeing-737-max-flaw/index.html

Havent seen it posted before... it seems a New flaw discovered on Boeing 737 Max.
"In simulator tests, government pilots discovered that a microprocessor failure could push the nose of the plane toward the ground. It is not known whether the microprocessor played a role in either crash.
When testing the potential failure of the microprocessor in the simulators, "it was difficult for the test pilots to recover in a matter of seconds," one of the sources said. "And if you can't recover in a matter of seconds, that's an unreasonable risk."


Electronics HW failure? Now they are nit picking. The FCC box is carry over from 737NG right? There is probably enough in use data to prove this microprocessor failure has really low chance of occurring


Seriously? i think there are 300 plus people who would wish this nit picking happened sooner when it was supposed to, before initial certification.
 
SEU
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:26 am

Wait, so not only was the MCAS flawed, the engine placement flawed, the MAX training simulators flawed but now another software called the Microprocessor is flawed?

Is any of this OK to anyone?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:37 am

SEU wrote:
now another software called the Microprocessor is flawed?

Nope, microprocessor ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microprocessor ) is the hardware that runs the software.

You have a microprocessor in your cell phone ( actually several in most modern phones ), dozens in most modern cars, etc.

All this report says is in one case the FAA tested they found response slower than expected.

It's similar to saying that if your phone had Google Maps and Facebook loaded at the same time it took longer than you wanted to switch between them ( but of course not as impactful as software running on a flight control microprocessor! ).

The fix could be to change the software or change the microprocessor.

Anyone who thinks they can tell which one it is from just the Reuters report is not being truthful.

But, no, this is not OK to anyone, including Boeing.

If you read the report they are saying this is a problem they need to resolve.
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:41 am

Revelation wrote:
The better question is why this case was found by FAA pilots and not Boeing pilots.

Different test parameters, the FAA is now looking to break versus Boeing who would have been more focused on compliance, heck it could even be the same pilots.
At least now I know it is still MCAS testing versus some generic microprocessor error they discovered when testing the APU or some such.
 
SEU
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:43 am

Revelation wrote:
SEU wrote:
now another software called the Microprocessor is flawed?

Nope, microprocessor ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microprocessor ) is the hardware that runs the software.

You have a microprocessor in your cell phone ( actually several in most modern phones ), dozens in most modern cars, etc.

All this report says is in one case the FAA tested they found response slower than expected.

It's similar to saying that if your phone had Google Maps and Facebook loaded at the same time it took longer than you wanted to switch between them ( but of course not as impactful as software running on a flight control microprocessor! ).

The fix could be to change the software or change the microprocessor.

Anyone who thinks they can tell which one it is from just the Reuters report is not being truthful.

But, no, this is not OK to anyone, including Boeing.

If you read the report they are saying this is a problem they need to resolve.


Right of course, thanks for the clarification.

I honestly think the right thing to do is just end the 737 line now. Bite the bullet and start on the NSA and just sell dirt cheap NGs to tie over the cashflow.

However, suits and bean counters will fight to the death not to let that happen.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:54 am

Bloomberg ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ke-changes ) has:

While the issue didn’t involve the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS, linked to the two fatal accidents since October that killed 346 people, it could produce an uncommanded dive similar to what occurred in the crashes, according to the person, who wasn’t authorized to speak about the matter.

So it's not a MCAS problem, but it is a problem Boeing didn't find on its own, which is a bad thing.

Gordon Johndroe, a Boeing spokesman, said the company agreed with the FAA finding and was addressing the issue as well as a broader software redesign that’s been underway for eight months.

Looks like I was on target when I suggested it could very well be addressed via software, but "broader software redesign" "underway for eight months" is also not a good thing to be dropping on people right about now.

It doesn't say exactly what was found or how it was found, but it does say:

Examining how trim failures occur has been a central part of safety reviews of the plane because it was central to the accidents.

And in case anyone is wondering:

Boeing hasn’t presented its final proposed fix to FAA for approval. Before it can do so, it has to conduct a final test flight with FAA pilots.
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Francoflier
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:38 am

LDRA wrote:
trini81 wrote:
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/26/politics/boeing-737-max-flaw/index.html

Havent seen it posted before... it seems a New flaw discovered on Boeing 737 Max.
"In simulator tests, government pilots discovered that a microprocessor failure could push the nose of the plane toward the ground. It is not known whether the microprocessor played a role in either crash.
When testing the potential failure of the microprocessor in the simulators, "it was difficult for the test pilots to recover in a matter of seconds," one of the sources said. "And if you can't recover in a matter of seconds, that's an unreasonable risk."


Electronics HW failure? Now they are nit picking. The FCC box is carry over from 737NG right? There is probably enough in use data to prove this microprocessor failure has really low chance of occurring


We don't know the details of what happened or what was found, and it will be a while before these details are available to the layman.

To me, it sounds like the chips being used on the airplane (likely carried over from the NG) are not up to the task of handling the new software patch required by MCAS. But that's just my interpretation.

In any case, the FAA is under such scrutiny and pressure to do this right that they will not let anything through.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Chemist
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:39 am

Clearly Boeing was really screwed up with MCAS and the general stability software design here.
But it seems a bit hyperbolic to say that the plane is a turd, it's unstable in pitch, it should be killed.
There are plenty of aircraft with minor handling issues that are fixed through both physical and electronic solutions.
Many military jets are unstable without flight control software.
I flew my first jet flight on a Boeing 720B and as a young boy I looked out at the wing and saw a whole bunch of little metal tabs sticking up across the top of the wing. I believe those were vortex generators or some such to tweak handling characteristics and they were a form of hardware modification, undoubtedly to adjust handling in some way.

What is more a turd than the actual airplane is Boeing's slipshod processes for designing, testing, and certifying their flight control software systems. I agree with other posters that this set of processes ought to be looked at. Also in some industries, when a company screws up, there is a legal consent decree, and the Feds oversee process improvement and behavior improvements for a few years. It's kind of like a babysitter watching over how the children behave.

It would be good to see something like that where Boeing gets some legal oversight for a few years to confirm they have improved their processes in this area and are continuing to function properly.
 
LDRA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:44 am

Francoflier wrote:
LDRA wrote:
trini81 wrote:
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/26/politics/boeing-737-max-flaw/index.html

Havent seen it posted before... it seems a New flaw discovered on Boeing 737 Max.
"In simulator tests, government pilots discovered that a microprocessor failure could push the nose of the plane toward the ground. It is not known whether the microprocessor played a role in either crash.
When testing the potential failure of the microprocessor in the simulators, "it was difficult for the test pilots to recover in a matter of seconds," one of the sources said. "And if you can't recover in a matter of seconds, that's an unreasonable risk."


Electronics HW failure? Now they are nit picking. The FCC box is carry over from 737NG right? There is probably enough in use data to prove this microprocessor failure has really low chance of occurring


We don't know the details of what happened or what was found, and it will be a while before these details are available to the layman.

To me, it sounds like the chips being used on the airplane (likely carried over from the NG) are not up to the task of handling the new software patch required by MCAS. But that's just my interpretation.

In any case, the FAA is under such scrutiny and pressure to do this right that they will not let anything through.


Then this is software problem, software development PROCESS problem which is worse!

Who did the worst case analysis for computation resources? Why is this scenario not covered by worst case analysis?
 
Elementalism
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:51 am

At what point does it make sense to drop MCAS all together and just have a MAX type rating for pilots? Has to be cheaper for all involved than dragging this out for months or years.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:04 am

Almost impossible to believe that Boeing has screwed up this badly.
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:12 am

Revelation wrote:
Gordon Johndroe, a Boeing spokesman, said the company agreed with the FAA finding and was addressing the issue as well as a broader software redesign that’s been underway for eight months.

Looks like I was on target when I suggested it could very well be addressed via software, but "broader software redesign" "underway for eight months" is also not a good thing to be dropping on people right about now.



I disagree with that assessment its quite possible that Boeing has just run out of processing power for the amount of tasks the computer is required to perform.

It may be fixable in software if they are lucky but eventually a system will run out of processing power and that needs a hardware fix, try booting windows 10 on a computer from 2000. The closer you get to using all of your computing capacity the less reliable timings become, and fancy programming to trim times processing normal routine actions can create bigger lags with edge case issues.
Last edited by qf789 on Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: spelling in post as requested by the user
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ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:22 am

Elementalism wrote:
At what point does it make sense to drop MCAS all together and just have a MAX type rating for pilots? Has to be cheaper for all involved than dragging this out for months or years.
MCAS is not about old 737 type rating. Take out MCAS and MAX still stays grounded.
 
downdata
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:38 am

The thing is... if you have a software in your plane that flies it into the ground by itself... its going to be inadvertently triggered somehow unless you can prevent the infinite number of possibilities that can cause the system to fail ...
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:47 am

I came here to read about the issues recently discovered per various news sites, to see how they might affect return to flight. But what found was continued tirade, often by the same person or persons about pilots.

Sure, there may have been path to avoid a crash, and the exact procedures in this complex failure are still being debated. But the main fault was a design that forces pilots into that situation far too often and in a far too dangerous way.

Do you need a clue or reality injection? No aviation administration around the world has grounded pilots, but all of them have grounded the max. There's a reason for that. And no NG or 320 is regularly pointing their nose to the ground.

Boeing will fix MCAS and the new issue and the training rules for MCAS will be agreed. It will take some time. But I think both them and members of this board need to recognize the seriousness of the situation, and that it will need design changes.
 
marcelh
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:54 am

What I find disturbing that there is another new issue that popped up and has to be solved. I want to see the MAX fly safely asap, but what’s next?
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:23 am

I wonder how much of the max backlog will actually ever be produced and/or delivered? In case they would really go ahead and lanuch NMA/NSA or both at the same time, how much of that backlog would transition to a new plane? Might even worthwhile opening a new thread?

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HaulSudson
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:29 am

At least the designers appear to have been consistent in removing redundancy at all fronts.

Making a cheap plane cheaper!
 
giblets
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Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:14 am

Is this latest ‘feature’ just being reported recently, or been found recently, a couple of reports were talking about type approval in June, but we’ve heard for a couple of weeks that airlines were leasing aircraft til end of year. Is it just we are hearing about the details now?!
Or if this is new news (rather than just delayed) are airlines going to be leasing into the new year?!


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aryonoco
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:17 am

AirlineCritic wrote:
I came here to read about the issues recently discovered per various news sites, to see how they might affect return to flight. But what found was continued tirade



+1

So based on my understanding of the news reports, the new issue seems to not be directly related to MCAS. It was discovered by a FAA test pilot. Boeing acknowledges the issue. We don't yet know if the new issue requires a software or a hardware fix.

Even if the new issue can be fixed by just software, it needs further validation and testing. Personally I'm sure Boeing will eventually fix the issues, but I don't see the MAX back in service this year. And what kind of pilot training will be needed after all these software alterations is also a separate discussion.
 
Agrajag
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:18 am

I wonder what meaningless lawyer led weasel words will will hear from Boeing management today?
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
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AeroplaneFreak
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:28 am

oschkosch wrote:
I wonder how much of the max backlog will actually ever be produced and/or delivered?


In my opinion which of course is meaningless I would guess around 80% of the backlog will be produced plus of course there will be many more orders in the coming years.

The people who think that MAX won't fly commercially again or that only a couple of hundred will ever be produced or that people will refuse to fly on them, they are living on another planet.

People have to accept that these issues will be fixed and the MAX will return to service. To say that the MAX is a failure or flop at this moment in time is completely irrational. We are less than three years after EIS and in my opinion judgement on aircraft success shouldn't be made until at least 10 years after EIS.

Yes there will plenty of media coverage of people refusing to fly it when it returns to service but this is nothing new. We saw it with the A380 and B787 when they had their respective incidents all be it those incidents didn't reach the level of the MAX but they came close.

Like it or not the flying public forgets very quickly and over 90% of the public barely know what type of plane they are flying and I would wager 99% of the public couldn't tell the difference between a NG and MAX 737.

Also let's not forget that Boeing will be offering some pretty amazing deals to airlines over the coming years on MAX frames so don't expect the line to shut down anytime soon.

I am not defending what Boeing did in anyway, I am just pointing out the most likely outcome.
Last edited by AeroplaneFreak on Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:32 am

Agrajag wrote:
I wonder what meaningless lawyer led weasel words will will hear from Boeing management today?


"We are confident that our microprocessors on the 737 MAX are up to the task, and we are working with the FAA to resolve the issue."
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."

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