ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:11 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
... to re-route data across multiple processor chips in the flight control computer ...


I am a software engineer, and that does raise a big red flag in my mind.

Don't pay too much attention to it. That phrase does not mean anything. It is targeting laymen, to show that Boeing has a a solution. In actual reality they likely don't have a solution yet, or it has no connection with that statement :)
 
Ertro
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:31 pm

Revelation wrote:
BTW, if you're willing to go with "everything Boeing says has been optimized by dozen lawyers and PR people to be the best possible spin for everything", are you also willing to go with "everything the media says has been optimized by dozens of flacks whose pay is directly tied to mouse clicks and 'impressions' who know the truth behind the saying 'if it bleeds it leads'"?


No. There is not enough time in the world to have a team of 20 people go through every 1000 words in every one of the 100000 articles that are written every day.

I am very much against the current trend of trying to label everything untrustworthy. Media is not going to get any better by the current sentiment of trying to discredit everything in it without any nuance and precision in this process and media is absolutely vital to any society.
 
MaksFly
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:40 pm

Wow, I am amazed to learn that so much of the Max, and 787 software is being outsourced.

Ironic... on one hand aerospace industry complains about potential spying... YET, they willingly employ the lowest bidder.

Gee... I wonder what's more likely... China/Russia/Iran hacking OR.... the guys getting paid $9 an hour overseas selling the info to the highest bidder? lol.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:44 pm

Ertro wrote:
I am very much against the current trend of trying to label everything untrustworthy. Media is not going to get any better by the current sentiment of trying to discredit everything in it without any nuance and precision in this process and media is absolutely vital to any society.

Media is not going to get any better by funding it by the click, yet you cannot deny that is what we largely now do. I was around in the early days of the Internet and the approach to fix this was micro-payments yet the banks killed off all such efforts because it devalued their credit card operations, just like they now try to kill off Internet currency that can be used for micro-transactions not involving banks.

Health is absolutely vital to any society, yet the most popular restaurants are fast food joints, and obesity is becoming a world wide problem.
Last edited by Revelation on Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:45 pm

MaksFly wrote:
Wow, I am amazed to learn that so much of the Max, and 787 software is being outsourced.

Please share your impression of how much of the MAX and 787 software is being outsourced, and why you think it is "so much".
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Ertro
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:48 pm

Talking about media is offtopic so I won't talk about it any further.
Yes. There are problems but I don't like a trend that makes things worse from what they are.
 
ubeema
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:07 pm

Can we please put the outsourcing “surprises” to rest! Outsourcing is a well known strategy utilized by many US companies across all industries , and unfortunately too many times at the expense of American workforce. Nothing new here. Boeing is run by an American Management team with oversight by BOD made of US executives. That’s where the buck stops. Any outsourcing discussion wrongly shifts blame and/or responsibilities to the wrong parties whether in facts or perception especially in this very bad state of affairs.
 
MaksFly
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:12 pm

Revelation wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
Wow, I am amazed to learn that so much of the Max, and 787 software is being outsourced.

Please share your impression of how much of the MAX and 787 software is being outsourced, and why you think it is "so much".


I don't know how much as a percentage but to me, having ANY outsourcing of software to a foreign country, for aerospace, which we deem a major national security concern, is kind of ironic.

I always assumed that all of the engineering for Boeing was done by Boeing and then parts supplied by outside parties... but not the actual software.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:15 pm

I have been following the news quietly but the narrative looks worse and worse for Boeing. The idea that MCAS 1.0 was an oversight or honest mistake by the engineers is looking less and less likely. It starts to look like a deliberate decision as other options faced huge hurdles in the flight control systems.

The other options is that Boeing is not aware of many problems in the flight control system of the 737, which would be even worse.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:22 pm

PW100 wrote:
planecane wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
I read it... Pilots flying Boeing planes in recent years have reported flight-control problems they blamed on malfunctioning software -- not on the company's maligned 737 MAX jets, but widely used earlier versions of the plane that are still in the air.
Commercial pilots flying Boeing's NG, or "Next Generation," models have registered concerns on a variety of computer problems through the Aviation Safety Reporting System, a database administered by NASA.

These incidents don't appear to have anything to do with the MAX or the potential microprocessor lock up. They all appear to be autopilot related. If I recall correctly from the posts about those incidents back in March or April, the recovery was accomplished by disengaging the autopilot.


Can we disregard the possibility that auopilot commands are send through the same trim motor controller and/or processor to manipulate the horizontal stabelizer?

Do any of the NG reports say that the trim changed? Uncommanded nose down can be caused by the elevator also.
 
LDRA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:46 pm

Ertro wrote:
I believe Boeing did not use HCL or Cyient for MCAS. However I remember reading from somewhere months ago that MCAS SW was subcontracted to some other company which I cannot remember else than it had a respected American company name. Whether that other company used 9$ engineers is another discussion.

Also I have now learnt many times that everything Boeing says has been optimized by dozen lawyers and PR people to be the best possible spin for everything and so when Boeing says "We did not subcontract to these 2 specific companies" I can take that as a confirmation that they did subcontract it to somebody. Otherwise the Boeing line would have been "We did not subcontract MCAS SW period."

The reason why thought this was bad is that subcontracting to another company is always bad for engineering critical complex stuff as those other companies cannot be expected to have deep understanding of 737 as a whole and information how each individual small detail can affect the whole plane behaviour does not flow upwards in organization so easily to be recorded into some document or persons mind. The engineers in subcontractors do not have pride and sense of responsibility like inhouse engineers have. For subcontractors it is just a job that pays their bills until some other design work for some other client next month. Fulfill the specs and that is end of it.


I believe FCC is Honeywell part. So high chance Honeywell did the coding
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:48 pm

These are really troubling news. Critical software for flight testing is outsourced... what?

This reminded me of this great article on how the software for the Space Shuttle was developed and maintained: https://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they- ... ight-stuff

These Lockheed Martin people near Houston had strict 8-to-5 working hours, and about half the coders were female - many of them in senior positions. They rather resembled government clerks with all their precaution, adherence to processes and writing lots of documentation.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:54 pm

Revelation wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
Wow, I am amazed to learn that so much of the Max, and 787 software is being outsourced.

Please share your impression of how much of the MAX and 787 software is being outsourced, and why you think it is "so much".

For critical product, such as an airplane, any part of s/w outsourced is too much. You lose point of accountability and you lose control over transfer of expertise when developers leaves the company.
 
LDRA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:59 pm

seahawk wrote:
I have been following the news quietly but the narrative looks worse and worse for Boeing. The idea that MCAS 1.0 was an oversight or honest mistake by the engineers is looking less and less likely. It starts to look like a deliberate decision as other options faced huge hurdles in the flight control systems.

The other options is that Boeing is not aware of many problems in the flight control system of the 737, which would be even worse.


MCAS 1.0 was an honest mistake in system requirement. If the system requirement had correctly limited final MCAS trim command authority to 2.5 degrees, there would not be Lion air crash. Using single AoA sensor is perfectly fine, as long as control authority is limited

Boeing's issue is handling of Lion Air crash at C suite level. It is a complete botchfest, shows complete disregard for safety

Now that everyone is winded up, Boeing is forced to use two AoA signal solution, which appearantly not easily achieved with current Air data and FCC architecture
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:07 pm

LDRA wrote:
MCAS 1.0 was an honest mistake in system requirement. If the system requirement had correctly limited final MCAS trim command authority to 2.5 degrees, there will not be Lion air crash. Using single AoA sensor is perfectly fine, as long as control authority is limited

You must be glass half-full kind of guy :) Just because there is an error in system requirements, does not mean that people in development, QA, certification are allowed to be mindless idiots that don't question the requirements. No, that is a lot more than just honest error (which, by the way, is INEXCUSABLE). It is also erosion of expertise and/or complete breakdown of communication between departments, when people executing requirements do not understand them or the implications.
Last edited by ArgentoSystems on Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LDRA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:08 pm

ArgentoSystems wrote:
Revelation wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
Wow, I am amazed to learn that so much of the Max, and 787 software is being outsourced.

Please share your impression of how much of the MAX and 787 software is being outsourced, and why you think it is "so much".

For critical product, such as an airplane, any part of s/w outsourced is too much. You lose point of accountability and you lose control over transfer of expertise when developers leaves the company.


As long as documentation is maintained, tracibility is valid, validations were correctly executed, there should not be issue

For safety critical software, if developer leaving can cause loss of knowledge and expertise on code written, there is serious process issue
 
LDRA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:11 pm

ArgentoSystems wrote:
LDRA wrote:
MCAS 1.0 was an honest mistake in system requirement. If the system requirement had correctly limited final MCAS trim command authority to 2.5 degrees, there will not be Lion air crash. Using single AoA sensor is perfectly fine, as long as control authority is limited

You must be glass half-full kind of guy :) Just because there is an error in system requirements, does not mean that people in development, QA, certification are allowed to be mindless idiots that don't question the requirements. No, that is a lot more than just honest error (which, by the way, is INEXCUSABLE). It is also erosion of expertise and/or complete breakdown of communication between departments, when people executing requirements do not understand them or the implications.

These are SYSTEM requirements derived from aircraft aero characteristics and cockpit pilot machine interface design.
 
shankly
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:19 pm

SE-RTC (call sign NAX1TD) currently West of La Rochelle @ FL200.....out of Malaga, but headed for?
L1011 - P F M
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:20 pm

LDRA wrote:
As long as documentation is maintained, tracibility is valid, validations were correctly executed, there should not be issue

In other words, as long as there is paperwork to cover arse, all is kosher. That's MBA's attitude that is now bites Boeing in their behind. In reality transfer of large codebase simply based on documentation is just not possible.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:30 pm

ubeema wrote:
Can we please put the outsourcing “surprises” to rest! Outsourcing is a well known strategy utilized by many US companies across all industries , and unfortunately too many times at the expense of American workforce. Nothing new here. Boeing is run by an American Management team with oversight by BOD made of US executives. That’s where the buck stops. Any outsourcing discussion wrongly shifts blame and/or responsibilities to the wrong parties whether in facts or perception especially in this very bad state of affairs.

Indeed, this is a feeding frenzy of outrage.

The actual report is not saying what people here suggest it is saying, read my earlier post, I'm not typing it in again.

People are so easily triggered these days.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:32 pm

planecane wrote:
First, when has Boeing ever said anything about "3rd world pilots?" There were a few posters on here making those statements.

From the very beginning. they did not use term "3rd world pilots" obviously, but they did imply pilots error.

Second, although I am a big critic of companies outsourcing software coding to India, it is done all the time and the description of what they worked on has nothing to do with flight control or MCAS. Also, the specifications were set by Boeing engineers. The Indian software writers were just churning out lines of code. This practice goes back a long time. Back in the early 2000's I worked for a (at the time) large corporation that designed and manufactured electronics. There was a whole row of Indian contractors in the corner of our office lined up shoulder to shoulder at a long desk doing coding that was specified by the software engineers.

What's you point? Just because something is widespread and works for a lot of applications, does not mean it has place in critical places.
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:43 pm

Anything I ever do in my own business in the future I am going to give myself more credit for

I think I care more about getting things right than Boeing! And I don't have the lives of people at stake in my business

Would never have imagined a company of this size and stature would have so many poor things going on behind the scenes

You get the impression they are out of control behind the scenes?
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:50 pm

shankly wrote:
SE-RTC (call sign NAX1TD) currently West of La Rochelle @ FL200.....out of Malaga, but headed for?

Good catch!
1) I note a good quick climb out from Malaga (like it's empty...), but then it held at 20,000' :scratchchin:
2) If it maintains the current heading it looks like it's going to maintain 20,000 feet all the way home.... to Norway (my money is on somewhere between Bergen & Stavanger)
3) At around 360 kts ground speed it's like it's flying through treacle. There is a Ryanair 738 on the same heading going past it at least 120 kts faster.
$) The upside is it's going to take another 45 minutes before it passes overhead my place, so plenty of time to put the kettle on.....

Of course, keeping it down to FL200 might result in no vapour trail, and that would make it far less visible to the casual observer. I'm going to need my sharp eyes on today (again). I had the same problem with "that" B-52 last week; it kept dropping below contrail height and hence I could only positively ID it on the seventh loop around. Could this be deliberate?
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:03 pm

BoeingVista wrote:
New article from Leeham

https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/28/bjorn ... more-30568


The FMEA analysis lists all possible faults which can occur for a critical function in an aircraft and the fault scenarios are then played through and simulated in the aircraft’s simulators. It was during the simulation of such a possible fault in a 737 MAX simulator at Boeing in Renton the issue was found by the FAA.

It has been questioned why the FMEA performed on the original Flight Control computer software didn’t detect the hazardous MCAS condition caused by a faulty Angle of Attack sensor. If properly executed it should have found how dangerous MCAS could be with certain system faults.

Now, the FMEA analysis worked as it should. It detected a problem, this time caused by how the fixed software changed the data flows in the flight control system’s computers.


Well.. yes and no. Boeing should have produced a FMEA on its MCAS fix which caught this stab runaway before it was presented to the FAA. Boeings analysis failed AGAIN but this time the FAA instead of rubber stamping Boeings analysis (which was so clearly wrong on MCAS) sent their own guys onsite to run their own test series. The fact the FAA were easily able to unpick a software fix passed by Boeing should by rights get this whole remediation effort shut down until Boeing has audited its internal processes and found out why it keeps passing MAX flight software with fatal flaws.

But, the FAA is on the case now with a licence to test everything and anything and demand it be fixed. I predict that this is just the start of a rolling series of FAA requests.

The article posted by John Ostrower indicates that Boeing did find the potential failure but did not categorize it as catastrophic. The FAA purposely caused the failure and found it to be difficult for test pilots to recover from quickly and therefore determined that the failure would be catastrophic.

The FAA didn't find the failure, they tested the recovery from the failure and disagreed with Boeing's assessment of how the potential failure was categorized. I agree with the FAA assessment after we saw the tragic result of two runaway stabilizer incidents.
 
kuhne
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:48 pm

I don’t think Boeing using “third world engineers” as they are calling them here is the problem. We use “third world doctors”, “third world software developers”, “third world pretty much everything” in this country. Saying is the fault lies at using engineers from poorer countries is just a way to shift the blame somewhere else and make it less of an American problem.

US born engineers believe it or not make mistakes as well, everyone does, it’s like Samsung would blame using filipino engineers for their exploding phones.

“Stuff” will always have issues that need to be worked out regardless of who works on them, the most important part is of the process is not the actual engineering but the all powerful signature of whoever finally green lights the project as safe and viable. Whoever didn’t do it’s just properly to simple send the project back and say “make it better” instead of “crap we have to beat airbus at every turn! Speed things up!”
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:07 pm

kuhne wrote:
I don’t think Boeing using “third world engineers” as they are calling them here is the problem.

Of course. The problem is the fact of outsourcing itself. And additional complications of language barrier, working with people in different time zone... All of these compound the problem.
 
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Asturias
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:08 pm

Revelation wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
speedking wrote:
Incredible. 737MAX, designed by third world engineers. The Cheapest.

The software was, not the MAX itself. It’s disgraceful enough without your hyperbole

Wait, did anyone actually read the article?

If you did, you'd find it is click bait using the MAX tragedy as a vehicle to vent frustration about outsourcing.

All the freaking article says is:

Longtime Boeing engineers say the effort was complicated by a push to outsource work to lower-paid contractors.

It says NOTHING like the troll message above, "737MAX, designed by third world engineers".

The fact that people are going with such a suggestion shows what utter click bait it is.

TFA also says:

Boeing said the company did not rely on engineers from HCL and Cyient for the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, which has been linked to the Lion Air crash last October and the Ethiopian Airlines disaster in March. The Chicago-based planemaker also said it didn’t rely on either firm for another software issue disclosed after the crashes: a cockpit warning light that wasn’t working for most buyers.


I get it. I've been in a similar situation. It is frustrating. But there's no fighting outsourcing.


The article, which you've read, mentions that there's at least one person disagrees with your assessment:

Under Dennis Muilenburg, a longtime Boeing engineer who became chief executive in 2015, the company has said that it planned to bring more work back in-house for its newest planes.


I'm not even sure what you mean exactly by your statement, it's very hyperbolic - outsourcing is like any other tool. Sometimes it's appropriate to use it, sometimes it isn't.

After years of McNerney's MBA outsourcing/business venture experiments, it seems that the conclusion by the current CEO, is that it doesn't make that much sense after all for Boeing. Some outsourcing will make sense, but far less.

This has nothing to do with the MAX, I believe Boing 100% when they say that the FCC coding wasn't outsourced in the MAX. In fact I sincerely doubt one can find any 68k assembly code capable software engineers at any cheap Indian subcontractor - expertise on such low-level and close to the metal CPUs is rare and not in great demand. It's a very specialized skill, and one cannot hire anyone for $8/hour to do that kind of work or as an off-the-shelf subcontractor. This is one case where outsourcing wouldn't make a lick of sense, for instance.

Reading that article is not condemning the MAX at all, but rather the atrocious and incompetent executive decisions and policies made by McNerney as CEO. Everything that's wrong with Boeing today can be directly attributed to his reign as CEO. Now before anyone claims that he made shareholders a lot of profit, that seems to have been achieved by devaluing the Boeing brand in many different ways, from safety to quality - thus putting future profit at risk.

In other words, squeezing profit for the immediate future, is not impressive or desirable at all if it hurts profit for the long term. I'm not a fan of McNerney's reign, obviously, I'm obviously biased - but I feel his record speaks louder than anything I write - and his record is, among many, many things, the 737 MAX as it is today, the outsourcing extravaganza of the 787 and the scrapping of the 757 line, to name a few. Making the Boeing Aircraft company more of a financial institution which happens to make airplanes.
Tonight we fly
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:40 pm

LDRA wrote:
Ertro wrote:
I believe Boeing did not use HCL or Cyient for MCAS. However I remember reading from somewhere months ago that MCAS SW was subcontracted to some other company which I cannot remember else than it had a respected American company name. Whether that other company used 9$ engineers is another discussion.

Also I have now learnt many times that everything Boeing says has been optimized by dozen lawyers and PR people to be the best possible spin for everything and so when Boeing says "We did not subcontract to these 2 specific companies" I can take that as a confirmation that they did subcontract it to somebody. Otherwise the Boeing line would have been "We did not subcontract MCAS SW period."

The reason why thought this was bad is that subcontracting to another company is always bad for engineering critical complex stuff as those other companies cannot be expected to have deep understanding of 737 as a whole and information how each individual small detail can affect the whole plane behaviour does not flow upwards in organization so easily to be recorded into some document or persons mind. The engineers in subcontractors do not have pride and sense of responsibility like inhouse engineers have. For subcontractors it is just a job that pays their bills until some other design work for some other client next month. Fulfill the specs and that is end of it.


I believe FCC is Honeywell part. So high chance Honeywell did the coding

Best I can figure its Rockwell Collins and from the last software revision description one liner I found.
'Collins FCC software P/N 2270-COL-AC2-22 (known as “P11.1” software) MAX and NG – Jan 2019'

Ray

PS: However, the same source indicates there are BOTH Rockwell Collins and Honeywell FCCs! I wonder if this is how the dis-similar software is achieved with both producing hardware and including both companies software in the two processors?

Somebody our there must know?
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:59 pm

Asturias wrote:

After years of McNerney's MBA outsourcing/business venture experiments, it seems that the conclusion by the current CEO, is that it doesn't make that much sense after all for Boeing. Some outsourcing will make sense, but far less.

Reading that article is not condemning the MAX at all, but rather the atrocious and incompetent executive decisions and policies made by McNerney as CEO. Everything that's wrong with Boeing today can be directly attributed to his reign as CEO. Now before anyone claims that he made shareholders a lot of profit, that seems to have been achieved by devaluing the Boeing brand in many different ways, from safety to quality - thus putting future profit at risk.

In other words, squeezing profit for the immediate future, is not impressive or desirable at all if it hurts profit for the long term. I'm not a fan of McNerney's reign, obviously, I'm obviously biased - but I feel his record speaks louder than anything I write - and his record is, among many, many things, the 737 MAX as it is today, the outsourcing extravaganza of the 787 and the scrapping of the 757 line, to name a few. Making the Boeing Aircraft company more of a financial institution which happens to make airplanes.


Couldn't be farther from the truth. It was Mullaly that brought about the "outsourcing extravaganza of the 787" long before McNerney came to Boeing. Similarly the 757 was scrapped before McNerney came to Boeing. IIRC Boeing was already going down the path towards ODA when McNerney arrived. Looks like you have an axe to grind -- please get your facts straight.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:31 pm

Asturias wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
The software was, not the MAX itself. It’s disgraceful enough without your hyperbole

Wait, did anyone actually read the article?

If you did, you'd find it is click bait using the MAX tragedy as a vehicle to vent frustration about outsourcing.

All the fine article says is:

Longtime Boeing engineers say the effort was complicated by a push to outsource work to lower-paid contractors.

It says NOTHING like the absurdly exaggerated message above, "737MAX, designed by third world engineers".

The article, which you've read, mentions that there's at least one person disagrees with your assessment:

Nice post, but you mis-characterize my assessment.

My assessment is that the article is click bait because it starts by saying Boeing engineers lives are complicated by outsourcing and names two things that have been outsourced by Boeing, some flight test software that presumably doesn't even fly with the aircraft and some display software, and not much more, but it includes enough dog whistles to make people reach the conclusion "737MAX, designed by third world engineers".

My assessment is that you can't tell if any other outsourcing is happening on the program, nor can you say if any of the outsourcing resulted in any safety issues, yet it is launched in the current climate where people are predisposed to make mountains out of molehills.

My assessment is they are leveraging people's jingoism and their disappointment with regard to Boeing to generate clicks.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Asturias
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:39 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
Asturias wrote:

After years of McNerney's MBA outsourcing/business venture experiments, it seems that the conclusion by the current CEO, is that it doesn't make that much sense after all for Boeing. Some outsourcing will make sense, but far less.

Reading that article is not condemning the MAX at all, but rather the atrocious and incompetent executive decisions and policies made by McNerney as CEO. Everything that's wrong with Boeing today can be directly attributed to his reign as CEO. Now before anyone claims that he made shareholders a lot of profit, that seems to have been achieved by devaluing the Boeing brand in many different ways, from safety to quality - thus putting future profit at risk.

In other words, squeezing profit for the immediate future, is not impressive or desirable at all if it hurts profit for the long term. I'm not a fan of McNerney's reign, obviously, I'm obviously biased - but I feel his record speaks louder than anything I write - and his record is, among many, many things, the 737 MAX as it is today, the outsourcing extravaganza of the 787 and the scrapping of the 757 line, to name a few. Making the Boeing Aircraft company more of a financial institution which happens to make airplanes.


Couldn't be farther from the truth. It was Mullaly that brought about the "outsourcing extravaganza of the 787" long before McNerney came to Boeing. Similarly the 757 was scrapped before McNerney came to Boeing. IIRC Boeing was already going down the path towards ODA when McNerney arrived. Looks like you have an axe to grind -- please get your facts straight.


Couldn't be farther from the actual truth. McNerney was CEO from 2005, Chairman and President of Boeing - while Mulally was *never* CEO of the Boeing Company. Get your facts straight, before trying to come off all indignant and patronizing. It looks like you have some personal interest in defending the honor of McNerney. If you had bothered to read my post, I did concede that I am biased against McNerney. So not only does it *seem* I have an axe to grind, I actually do. As I already wrote. Am I to applaud your insight?

McNerney did not reverse the outsourcing extravaganza of the 787, rather increased it, spanning now engineering in both hardware and software. You really should get your facts straight before espousing your unsolicited opinion. McNerney had no plan, idea or vision for the 757 either, and scrapped the line and tooling. That was all done on his watch. But that isn't even scratching the surface of the blunders of McNerney, so spare us the fake indignation.

Don't waste our time with your opinion of what happened under McNerney, let's stick to facts. That being said, if you want to think of McNerney as a fantastic CEO, go right ahead. I as said, his actions and decisions speak more of him than any words.
Last edited by Asturias on Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Asturias
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:41 pm

Revelation wrote:
Asturias wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Wait, did anyone actually read the article?

If you did, you'd find it is click bait using the MAX tragedy as a vehicle to vent frustration about outsourcing.

All the fine article says is:


It says NOTHING like the absurdly exaggerated message above, "737MAX, designed by third world engineers".

The article, which you've read, mentions that there's at least one person disagrees with your assessment:

Nice post, but you mis-characterize my assessment.

My assessment is that the article is click bait because it starts by saying Boeing engineers lives are complicated by outsourcing and names two things that have been outsourced by Boeing, some flight test software that presumably doesn't even fly with the aircraft and some display software, and not much more, but it includes enough dog whistles to make people reach the conclusion "737MAX, designed by third world engineers".

My assessment is that you can't tell if any other outsourcing is happening on the program, nor can you say if any of the outsourcing resulted in any safety issues, yet it is launched in the current climate where people are predisposed to make mountains out of molehills.

My assessment is they are leveraging people's jingoism and their disappointment with regard to Boeing to generate clicks.


Very much agreed - that article was pure clickbait and misrepresents many things, as you correctly point out. I apologize for mis-charactrarizing your post, that was not my intention. Rather to underline and emphasize that I find it completely out of the question that Boeing has outsourced critical software engineering to third party contractors, software engineering which is not only highly specialized, but almost unique - with the caveat that software included from third party suppliers, such as Honeywell or Rockwell, may engineered by those suppliers, or for them by contractors on their behalf.

I have seen no indications that software outsourcing has resulted in any safety issues, and I am confident Boeing would never outsource software engineering of such critical nature. Outsourcing software engineering is certainly confined to non-critical systems. Even so, it is good to know that Boeing plans on limiting software outsourcing going forward.
Last edited by Asturias on Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:51 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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xmp125a
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:41 pm

Norlander wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
spongenotbob wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-28/boeing-s-737-max-software-outsourced-to-9-an-hour-engineers

(Use incognito to get past paywall)

America’s favorite form of cost-cutting finally comes home to roost.

Yup. Disgraceful.


That report is getting quite a lot of outrage press across popular media, it will cause Boeing additional problems from a purely perception point of view, in addition to it being a massive misstep for them, hopefully whoever though up that idea will feel the ramifications.


Airline in my country intended to buy a number of Sukhoi Superjet 100. There was huge outrage among flying public and swearing that they will boycott the airline, even if this would be exceedingly difficult. At the end, the deal fell through. But, it shows that Airbus and Boeing have huge brand value just due to the fact that they are "Made in EU/USA". Of course hiring Indian software engineers is something many companies do, but they perhaps are not as reliant on "made in the West" brand as the Boeing. So, while outsourcing is something everyone does, it can really make a dent in Boeing brand, because people prefer to fly Boeing over Russian or Chinese brand planes exactly because they believe that all the critical components are Western made (even the Superjet has a number of western-made components for exactly that reason).

So stupid stupid stupid move that outsourcing by Boeing.
 
JibberJim
Posts: 73
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:42 pm

LDRA wrote:
ArgentoSystems wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Please share your impression of how much of the MAX and 787 software is being outsourced, and why you think it is "so much".

For critical product, such as an airplane, any part of s/w outsourced is too much. You lose point of accountability and you lose control over transfer of expertise when developers leaves the company.


As long as documentation is maintained, tracibility is valid, validations were correctly executed, there should not be issue

For safety critical software, if developer leaving can cause loss of knowledge and expertise on code written, there is serious process issue


Absolutely, life time of a plane software is decades, there's simply no chance that you can maintain developers currency on such code, so it has to be built and documented in such a way that it can be understood quickly by the new team that will be picking things up in the future.
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:57 pm

Asturias wrote:
7BOEING7 wrote:
Asturias wrote:

After years of McNerney's MBA outsourcing/business venture experiments, it seems that the conclusion by the current CEO, is that it doesn't make that much sense after all for Boeing. Some outsourcing will make sense, but far less.

Reading that article is not condemning the MAX at all, but rather the atrocious and incompetent executive decisions and policies made by McNerney as CEO. Everything that's wrong with Boeing today can be directly attributed to his reign as CEO. Now before anyone claims that he made shareholders a lot of profit, that seems to have been achieved by devaluing the Boeing brand in many different ways, from safety to quality - thus putting future profit at risk.

In other words, squeezing profit for the immediate future, is not impressive or desirable at all if it hurts profit for the long term. I'm not a fan of McNerney's reign, obviously, I'm obviously biased - but I feel his record speaks louder than anything I write - and his record is, among many, many things, the 737 MAX as it is today, the outsourcing extravaganza of the 787 and the scrapping of the 757 line, to name a few. Making the Boeing Aircraft company more of a financial institution which happens to make airplanes.


Couldn't be farther from the truth. It was Mullaly that brought about the "outsourcing extravaganza of the 787" long before McNerney came to Boeing. Similarly the 757 was scrapped before McNerney came to Boeing. IIRC Boeing was already going down the path towards ODA when McNerney arrived. Looks like you have an axe to grind -- please get your facts straight.


Couldn't be farther from the actual truth. McNerney was CEO from 2005, Chairman and President of Boeing - while Mulally was *never* CEO of the Boeing Company. Get your facts straight, before trying to come off all indignant and patronizing. It looks like you have some personal interest in defending the honor of McNerney.

McNerney did not reverse the outsourcing extravaganza of the 787, rather increased it, spanning now engineering in both hardware and software. You really should get your facts straight before espousing your unsolicited opinion. McNerney had no plan, idea or vision for the 757 either, and scrapped the line and tooling. That was all done on his watch.

Don't waste our time with your opinion of what happened under McNerney, let's stick to facts.


That's right "facts". Mullaly was behind all the outsourcing of 787 -- we all thought it was an accident looking for a place to happen. He took it to the Board which did not include McNerney at the time and the 787 was born. Without the aggressive outsourcing proposed by Mullaly it never would have flown because it would have cost too much -- what do you know, it cost too much anyway.

The 757 program was terminated in October of 2003, also when Mullaly was in charge of the commercial division. The last plane was delivered in 2004 also before McNerney arrived. He was in charge when the "carcass" was destroyed but that room was needed to increase 737 production. It was a dead horse!!!
 
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PITingres
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:04 pm

ArgentoSystems wrote:
For critical product, such as an airplane, any part of s/w outsourced is too much. You lose point of accountability and you lose control over transfer of expertise when developers leaves the company.


Bat puckey. Outsourcing is not inherently good or bad. It depends on who you are outsourcing to.

Pretty much every corporation in the world, except for 3 or 4, outsource their DBMS requirements. They also outsource their operating systems. Saying that it's bad because it's outsourced is just thinking with the wrong head.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:08 pm

shankly wrote:
SE-RTC (call sign NAX1TD) currently West of La Rochelle @ FL200.....out of Malaga, but headed for?

How is this possible?

After the initial grounding notification, which allowed positioning flights, a subsequent EASA notification prohibits all flights, for any reason.
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:14 pm

smartplane wrote:
shankly wrote:
SE-RTC (call sign NAX1TD) currently West of La Rochelle @ FL200.....out of Malaga, but headed for?

How is this possible?

After the initial grounding notification, which allowed positioning flights, a subsequent EASA notification prohibits all flights, for any reason.


Maybe they got an exemption for this flight. FL200 and "slow" -- could be with the flaps out to prevent MCAS.
 
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PW100
Posts: 3719
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:24 pm

planecane wrote:
PW100 wrote:
planecane wrote:
These incidents don't appear to have anything to do with the MAX or the potential microprocessor lock up. They all appear to be autopilot related. If I recall correctly from the posts about those incidents back in March or April, the recovery was accomplished by disengaging the autopilot.


Can we disregard the possibility that auopilot commands are send through the same trim motor controller and/or processor to manipulate the horizontal stabelizer?

Do any of the NG reports say that the trim changed? Uncommanded nose down can be caused by the elevator also.


Do any of the NG reports say that the trim changed? I'm not sure, but it was my understanding that the autopilot performs pitch control through stabelizer trim motor. But I may be mistaken on that.
You wrote "They all appeared autopilot related", hence my remark to you.
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smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:33 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
smartplane wrote:
shankly wrote:
SE-RTC (call sign NAX1TD) currently West of La Rochelle @ FL200.....out of Malaga, but headed for?

How is this possible?

After the initial grounding notification, which allowed positioning flights, a subsequent EASA notification prohibits all flights, for any reason.


Maybe they got an exemption for this flight. FL200 and "slow" -- could be with the flaps out to prevent MCAS.

But on what grounds? Must be some compelling arguments involved.

Commercial aviation insurers have suspended hull and liability insurance in relation to all MAX flights, so a flight would have to have one off cover, or be operated under a Boeing test policy.
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:40 pm

smartplane wrote:
7BOEING7 wrote:
smartplane wrote:
How is this possible?

After the initial grounding notification, which allowed positioning flights, a subsequent EASA notification prohibits all flights, for any reason.


Maybe they got an exemption for this flight. FL200 and "slow" -- could be with the flaps out to prevent MCAS.

But on what grounds? Must be some compelling arguments involved.

Commercial aviation insurers have suspended hull and liability insurance in relation to all MAX flights, so a flight would have to have one off cover, or be operated under a Boeing test policy.


I'd guess a "one off" rather than Boeing test policy -- with no passengers, flaps out of up, no possible MCAS, so no issue relative to the original grounding.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:44 pm

PW100 wrote:
planecane wrote:
PW100 wrote:

Can we disregard the possibility that auopilot commands are send through the same trim motor controller and/or processor to manipulate the horizontal stabelizer?

Do any of the NG reports say that the trim changed? Uncommanded nose down can be caused by the elevator also.


Do any of the NG reports say that the trim changed? I'm not sure, but it was my understanding that the autopilot performs pitch control through stabelizer trim motor. But I may be mistaken on that.
You wrote "They all appeared autopilot related", hence my remark to you.

The autopilot adjusts the trim but it doesn't control the pitch only with trim. It moves the elevator.
 
cat3appr50
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:32 pm

Let me note first, I strongly believe Boeing manufactures great aircraft and aerospace systems, which aviation history going back over a hundred years (i.e. for aircraft) objectively proves…the B737 Max situation being, IMO (as an American) a sad and troubling inflection point relative to the current 737 Max MCAS and THS trim issues, and including the FAA’s (up to this point the premier aviation regulatory organization in the world) abdication of regulatory responsibilities. After a quick review of Boeing’s (official) website it’s confusing with reference to Boeing's “737 Max Update” news statement. Quoting that article relative to specific updates to be implemented, “Flight control system will now compare inputs from both AOA sensors. If the sensors disagree by 5.5 degrees or more with the flaps retracted, MCAS will not activate. An indicator on the flight deck display will alert the pilots.” I assume this “indicator” refers to an “AoA disagree” alert light only?

Below that same news article is an article “737 Max Flight Deck Displays.” As part of that article, graphical representations of the Max PFD updates are shown, with an AoA indicator and AoA Disagree alert/light on both the Captains and F.O’s side. Is this what is going to be provided on each aircraft as “standard” upon the FAA approval of the Max changes? Since it’s shown directly below the “737 Max Update” news statement, one would assume that the PFD changes shown were also going to be implemented as standard on all aircraft.

But, relative to Boeing’s other news statement on their official website entitled, “Boeings Statement on AoA Disagree Alert”, quoting, “When the MAX returns to service, all MAX production aircraft will have an activated and operable AOA Disagree alert and an OPTIONAL (my caps) angle of attack indicator. All customers with previously delivered MAX airplanes will have the ability to activate the AOA Disagree alert.”

Does this mean that all new Max aircraft currently sitting on the Boeing production areas storage lots to be delivered to airlines will be updated before delivery with “an” (as quoted above, implying only one) AoA disagree alert. And as an “option” (at X $ optional price) can also get “an” (as quoted above, implying only one) AoA indicator on one of the PFD’s? If so, then why the graphical representation noted above with both on both PFD’s? In addition, with previously delivered Max airplanes, there will be capability to activate (one) AoA Disagree alert only, but not any means to get AoA indicators on the PFD’s on both sides? Is that correct?
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:11 pm

cat3appr50 wrote:


Does this mean that all new Max aircraft currently sitting on the Boeing production areas storage lots to be delivered to airlines will be updated before delivery with “an” (as quoted above, implying only one) AoA disagree alert. And as an “option” (at X $ optional price) can also get “an” (as quoted above, implying only one) AoA indicator on one of the PFD’s? If so, then why the graphical representation noted above with both on both PFD’s? In addition, with previously delivered Max airplanes, there will be capability to activate (one) AoA Disagree alert only, but not any means to get AoA indicators on the PFD’s on both sides? Is that correct?


"An" does not mean one in this case.

All airplanes delivered in the future as well as all previously delivered will have the AOA DISAGREE alert -- they were supposed to be that way to begin with -- displayed on both PFD's.

If the customer wants the optional AOA indicator (most don't), it will also be displayed on both PFD's (same as NG"S).

I believe the HUD has the AOA indicator as standard.
 
aaexecplat
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:21 pm

Some context to a few points made here. I have hired and worked with outsourced talent (software engineering and call center) from India and the Philippines. There is nothing inherently wrong or bad with outsourcing. It can be a fantastic tool for companies to manage their cost for fairly modular business requirements.

With that out of the way...I have never outsourced any software enginneering to India or anywhere else at $9/hour. Not because it is not possible, but because it would be reckless. I had a good conversation with the CMO of Fidelity a few years ago and he shared with me that he keeps a teal of PHDs in India that manage and run analytics on all their data. Compensation for these folks was around $60k/yr. A bargain for folks of this skill level. $9/hr comes out to about $18k/yr. That means bottom of the barrel skill level. IMO, if that kind of skill level has no place in any company I work in, then it surely has no place in a company like Boeing.

The other item I have (lots of) experience with is media. Trust me when I tell you that the media, including the biggest newspapers in the US have zero ability to conspire against a company like Boeing. Here's how it works...media hires young people willing to do what it takes to find stories that sell. After that, each reporter is completely on their own (which is why resources like HARO exist) and editors merely turn down or accept stories based on their commercial appeal or legal implications. Given how thin all media is staffed these days, the amount of real analysis or cooperation is very limited.

So there is zero comparison between the resources Boeing has at its disposal (PR and legal) vs what a paper like the NYT or a media outlet has at its disposal.
 
speedking
Posts: 68
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:37 am

737MAX: Made in the USA no more? Now Assembled in the USA. Designed in India?

https://eyelighting.com/made-vs-manufactured-in-usa
 
anshabhi
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:21 am

speedking wrote:
737MAX: Made in the USA no more? Now Assembled in the USA. Designed in India?

https://eyelighting.com/made-vs-manufactured-in-usa


Hey don't blame India only for the crashes.
If it ever flies again as a successful a/c, credit should go to India for that too.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 588
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:17 am

aaexecplat wrote:
Some context to a few points made here. I have hired and worked with outsourced talent (software engineering and call center) from India and the Philippines. There is nothing inherently wrong or bad with outsourcing. It can be a fantastic tool for companies to manage their cost for fairly modular business requirements.

With that out of the way...I have never outsourced any software enginneering to India or anywhere else at $9/hour. Not because it is not possible, but because it would be reckless. I had a good conversation with the CMO of Fidelity a few years ago and he shared with me that he keeps a teal of PHDs in India that manage and run analytics on all their data. Compensation for these folks was around $60k/yr. A bargain for folks of this skill level. $9/hr comes out to about $18k/yr. That means bottom of the barrel skill level. IMO, if that kind of skill level has no place in any company I work in, then it surely has no place in a company like Boeing.

The other item I have (lots of) experience with is media. Trust me when I tell you that the media, including the biggest newspapers in the US have zero ability to conspire against a company like Boeing. Here's how it works...media hires young people willing to do what it takes to find stories that sell. After that, each reporter is completely on their own (which is why resources like HARO exist) and editors merely turn down or accept stories based on their commercial appeal or legal implications. Given how thin all media is staffed these days, the amount of real analysis or cooperation is very limited.

So there is zero comparison between the resources Boeing has at its disposal (PR and legal) vs what a paper like the NYT or a media outlet has at its disposal.


Some good points raised. I am literally sat on PR731 right now, going to Manila to oversee the go live of a service desk for a rather large energy company.

If you only want cheap then you will get exactly that, but if you are happy to pay good local wages and put in the time, training and ongoing support that you would with your own local employees then you can have excellent results and cost savings without going cheap.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:57 am

7BOEING7 wrote:
smartplane wrote:
7BOEING7 wrote:

Maybe they got an exemption for this flight. FL200 and "slow" -- could be with the flaps out to prevent MCAS.

But on what grounds? Must be some compelling arguments involved.

Commercial aviation insurers have suspended hull and liability insurance in relation to all MAX flights, so a flight would have to have one off cover, or be operated under a Boeing test policy.


I'd guess a "one off" rather than Boeing test policy -- with no passengers, flaps out of up, no possible MCAS, so no issue relative to the original grounding.


SE-RTC flew OSL-LPA on 12th March and hadn't moved since.

Yesterday it flew LPA-AGP-OSL and 20,000ft was maximum altitude on both legs.
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rheinwaldner
Posts: 1708
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:57 am

scbriml wrote:
7BOEING7 wrote:
smartplane wrote:
But on what grounds? Must be some compelling arguments involved.

Commercial aviation insurers have suspended hull and liability insurance in relation to all MAX flights, so a flight would have to have one off cover, or be operated under a Boeing test policy.


I'd guess a "one off" rather than Boeing test policy -- with no passengers, flaps out of up, no possible MCAS, so no issue relative to the original grounding.


SE-RTC flew OSL-LPA on 12th March and hadn't moved since.

Yesterday it flew LPA-AGP-OSL and 20,000ft was maximum altitude on both legs.

Above 20kft flaps can not be extended with the 737, so they probably wanted the flaps to be available as MCAS counter measure.
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