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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:37 am

aaexecplat wrote:
Some context to a few points made here. I have hired and worked with outsourced talent (software engineering and call center) from India and the Philippines. There is nothing inherently wrong or bad with outsourcing. It can be a fantastic tool for companies to manage their cost for fairly modular business requirements.

With that out of the way...I have never outsourced any software enginneering to India or anywhere else at $9/hour. Not because it is not possible, but because it would be reckless. I had a good conversation with the CMO of Fidelity a few years ago and he shared with me that he keeps a teal of PHDs in India that manage and run analytics on all their data. Compensation for these folks was around $60k/yr. A bargain for folks of this skill level. $9/hr comes out to about $18k/yr. That means bottom of the barrel skill level. IMO, if that kind of skill level has no place in any company I work in, then it surely has no place in a company like Boeing.

The other item I have (lots of) experience with is media. Trust me when I tell you that the media, including the biggest newspapers in the US have zero ability to conspire against a company like Boeing. Here's how it works...media hires young people willing to do what it takes to find stories that sell. After that, each reporter is completely on their own (which is why resources like HARO exist) and editors merely turn down or accept stories based on their commercial appeal or legal implications. Given how thin all media is staffed these days, the amount of real analysis or cooperation is very limited.

So there is zero comparison between the resources Boeing has at its disposal (PR and legal) vs what a paper like the NYT or a media outlet has at its disposal.

Given your statement about how thinly staffed today's media including NYT is, why the bleep are you willing to believe their characterization of Boeing's hiring practices???

As we see on this very forum, talk of outsourcing is a dog whistle that triggers lots of people.

Given how today's media is thinly staffed and gets paid by the click, it should be obvious that their work consists of finding a few tidbits that trigger people and projecting them as widely as possible.

Thus we get posts like:

speedking wrote:
737MAX: Made in the USA no more? Now Assembled in the USA. Designed in India?

https://eyelighting.com/made-vs-manufactured-in-usa
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FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:57 am

I really wonder why people get so angry about outsourcing. Our company does it, we outsourced the cleaning, the accounting and the hosting. There is nothing bad in that because why hire a cleaner for 2h a week when you can outsource it. The same goes for big companies, you can buy in expertise for projects instead of hire and fire. You need to do your assessment to make sure you take the right company you want to outsource to but that is basic economics. If you fail there you can end up in deep shit.
 
sillystrings
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:50 am

FluidFlow wrote:
I really wonder why people get so angry about outsourcing. Our company does it, we outsourced the cleaning, the accounting and the hosting. There is nothing bad in that because why hire a cleaner for 2h a week when you can outsource it. The same goes for big companies, you can buy in expertise for projects instead of hire and fire. You need to do your assessment to make sure you take the right company you want to outsource to but that is basic economics. If you fail there you can end up in deep shit.

Maybe when your job gets outsourced you will understand? Having to train the people taking your job would certainly piss someone off. The Disney debacle comes to mind, and there many more examples.
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:58 am

sillystrings wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
I really wonder why people get so angry about outsourcing. Our company does it, we outsourced the cleaning, the accounting and the hosting. There is nothing bad in that because why hire a cleaner for 2h a week when you can outsource it. The same goes for big companies, you can buy in expertise for projects instead of hire and fire. You need to do your assessment to make sure you take the right company you want to outsource to but that is basic economics. If you fail there you can end up in deep shit.

Maybe when your job gets outsourced you will understand? Having to train the people taking your job would certainly piss someone off. The Disney debacle comes to mind, and there many more examples.


There are things I would outsource and things I wouldn't.

I do wonder if a lot of the financial scandals we now have are due to the penchant for outsourcing finance. In the old days you grew your financial controllers and future FD's by their progression through the business. They came with an intimate knowledge of the business and could spot when things didn't look right. Now we happily outsource to providers who meet and SLA and have no real interest in following the unexpected to see what has happened. It isn't in their remit after all. Nowadays the Financial Controllers and FD's are hired in. They don't know the business either.

So for me when an area is outsourced you lose a) the skills in house and probably b) the people with the deep understanding.,
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:11 pm

When it comes to safety, some things just shouldn’t be outsourced.

Risk mitigation would be key, and given how important some of the work that had been outsourced was to getting this software right, it’s hardly ideal to lose some control over that process.

Every business grapples with cost vs efficiency decisions on an ongoing basis, but given the complexity of these machines, it’s a very fine line in this industry.
 
Eyad89
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:20 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
I really wonder why people get so angry about outsourcing. Our company does it, we outsourced the cleaning, the accounting and the hosting. There is nothing bad in that because why hire a cleaner for 2h a week when you can outsource it. The same goes for big companies, you can buy in expertise for projects instead of hire and fire. You need to do your assessment to make sure you take the right company you want to outsource to but that is basic economics. If you fail there you can end up in deep shit.


The general rule in business is to outsource whatever that is not a core competence of your business. One can argue that writing codes isn't a part of Boeing's competence , and so it makes sense for Boeing to hand over this part to more capable software programming companies, but it falls on Boeing to choose the most qualified programming company to write those codes so that a similar incident can never happen.
 
goosebayguy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:54 pm

I'm thinking this entire problem is due to a systemic failure of Boeing management.

Firstly it was the B787 battery fires and the solution was to allow the fires to continue by building in a containment system whereas AIrbus just reverted to the previous safe battieries on the A350.

Then we have the FOD problem on the B767 for the USAF. A very basic aerospace engineering error which should never ever be happening. Why no tool shadow boards or inspection system? Its as though someone has been working in McDolnalds and suddenly finds themselves on a production line with little training.

Then we have the MAX problem. An unstable aircraft made more unstable by a poorly executed MCAS system kept secret from airlines and pilots.Fighter aircraft are unstable controlled by computers which when they go wrong lead to the pilot ejecting. Passenger aircraft should be stable in flight. There are no ejection seats.

Boeing need to return to the drawing board and make this aircraft stable.
 
JHwk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:09 pm

IndianicWorld wrote:
When it comes to safety, some things just shouldn’t be outsourced.

Why? Who is to say that the outsourced “specialist” isn’t more capable at that function? Oh, you mean for cost reduction... well, the same logic is what created the specialist contractors.

You should never outsource your core business function or the things that differentiate you in the industry. Everything else is fair game. The challenge is for the MBAs to actually understand what the core business function is.
 
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unrave
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:14 pm

$9/hr is excellent salary in India. I am in fact surprised that people working on Boeing contracts are paid so much.
Strange that a business news portal like Bloomberg would insinuate that the low pay - relative to the US - given to Indian engineers reflects in the quality of work. Haven't they heard about purchasing power differences?

And if you are triggered on learning about Boeing outsourcing work to Indian companies you can take comfort from the fact that Airbus sources even greater share of work from India.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
aaexecplat
Posts: 499
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:19 pm

Revelation wrote:
aaexecplat wrote:
Some context to a few points made here. I have hired and worked with outsourced talent (software engineering and call center) from India and the Philippines. There is nothing inherently wrong or bad with outsourcing. It can be a fantastic tool for companies to manage their cost for fairly modular business requirements.

With that out of the way...I have never outsourced any software enginneering to India or anywhere else at $9/hour. Not because it is not possible, but because it would be reckless. I had a good conversation with the CMO of Fidelity a few years ago and he shared with me that he keeps a teal of PHDs in India that manage and run analytics on all their data. Compensation for these folks was around $60k/yr. A bargain for folks of this skill level. $9/hr comes out to about $18k/yr. That means bottom of the barrel skill level. IMO, if that kind of skill level has no place in any company I work in, then it surely has no place in a company like Boeing.

The other item I have (lots of) experience with is media. Trust me when I tell you that the media, including the biggest newspapers in the US have zero ability to conspire against a company like Boeing. Here's how it works...media hires young people willing to do what it takes to find stories that sell. After that, each reporter is completely on their own (which is why resources like HARO exist) and editors merely turn down or accept stories based on their commercial appeal or legal implications. Given how thin all media is staffed these days, the amount of real analysis or cooperation is very limited.

So there is zero comparison between the resources Boeing has at its disposal (PR and legal) vs what a paper like the NYT or a media outlet has at its disposal.

Given your statement about how thinly staffed today's media including NYT is, why the bleep are you willing to believe their characterization of Boeing's hiring practices???

As we see on this very forum, talk of outsourcing is a dog whistle that triggers lots of people.

Given how today's media is thinly staffed and gets paid by the click, it should be obvious that their work consists of finding a few tidbits that trigger people and projecting them as widely as possible.

Thus we get posts like:

speedking wrote:
737MAX: Made in the USA no more? Now Assembled in the USA. Designed in India?

https://eyelighting.com/made-vs-manufactured-in-usa


To answer your initial question: Because Boeing themselves did not deny using those outsourcing outfits...the article clearly outlines that they did not use them for MCAS, but for display and flight testing software instead. Are you now seriously arguing with me over something Boeing have said themselves in response to Bloomberg's request for comment? Do you have proof that the journalist who authored the piece falsified or invented Boeing's statement?

Increasingly, I find it pretty rich to have you rant about people being triggered when you seem like the most triggered person around these parts. I don't disagree with your assessment of media creating clickbait. But that doesn't mean I can't believe Boeing's own statements nor does it imply that all reporting is bad/dead. I checked the Bloomberg article and beyond the clickbaity and misleading headline, this article shows evidence of good journalism...thorough research followed by providing Boeing an opportunity to set the record straight, which they did. Just because the title is clickbait doesn't mean we get to throw the baby out with the (inconvenient) bathwater.

Maybe it is time for you to step back and calm down and read what the rest of us write (in my case fairly dispassionately I might add) before flying off the handle?
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:51 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
I really wonder why people get so angry about outsourcing. Our company does it, we outsourced the cleaning, the accounting and the hosting. There is nothing bad in that because why hire a cleaner for 2h a week when you can outsource it. The same goes for big companies, you can buy in expertise for projects instead of hire and fire. You need to do your assessment to make sure you take the right company you want to outsource to but that is basic economics. If you fail there you can end up in deep shit.


What your company outsources is services that other companies are vastly more efficient at. No one outsources in the area of their core expertise. You can be sure cleaning company does not hire outside help for cleaning, accounting company does their own accounting, and hosting company does not further outsource hosting.

If Boeing has to outsource critical s/w writing then it is exactly what I'm talking about - erosion of expertise.
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:55 pm

unrave wrote:
$9/hr is excellent salary in India.

Maybe so, but not for expert programmers. In fact s/w development in India became so expensive companies start to move development back to NA. 60K per year would be expected cost to hire programmer there.

The fact that boeing paid $9/h, means they were hiring desperate bottom of the barrel programmers.
 
LDRA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:57 pm

ArgentoSystems wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
I really wonder why people get so angry about outsourcing. Our company does it, we outsourced the cleaning, the accounting and the hosting. There is nothing bad in that because why hire a cleaner for 2h a week when you can outsource it. The same goes for big companies, you can buy in expertise for projects instead of hire and fire. You need to do your assessment to make sure you take the right company you want to outsource to but that is basic economics. If you fail there you can end up in deep shit.


What your company outsources is services that other companies are vastly more efficient at. No one outsources in the area of their core expertise. You can be sure cleaning company does not hire outside help for cleaning, accounting company does their own accounting, and hosting company does not further outsource hosting.

If Boeing has to outsource critical s/w writing then it is exactly what I'm talking about - erosion of expertise.


With auto code generation from controls model, lot of flight control code writing is actually outsourced to computer already, not people...
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:02 pm

ArgentoSystems wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
I really wonder why people get so angry about outsourcing. Our company does it, we outsourced the cleaning, the accounting and the hosting. There is nothing bad in that because why hire a cleaner for 2h a week when you can outsource it. The same goes for big companies, you can buy in expertise for projects instead of hire and fire. You need to do your assessment to make sure you take the right company you want to outsource to but that is basic economics. If you fail there you can end up in deep shit.


What your company outsources is services that other companies are vastly more efficient at. No one outsources in the area of their core expertise. You can be sure cleaning company does not hire outside help for cleaning, accounting company does their own accounting, and hosting company does not further outsource hosting.

If Boeing has to outsource critical s/w writing then it is exactly what I'm talking about - erosion of expertise.



Of course I agree. It seems that Boeing has not enough good programmers and to be fair, it is quiet possible that there is no talent in the US to actually fill them positions. Same problems in the EU. And stupid immigration laws prevent to bring enough in to do the work here.
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:12 pm

LDRA wrote:

With auto code generation from controls model, lot of flight control code writing is actually outsourced to computer already, not people...


1) it does not make sense.
2) It is irrelevant

Applying the same logic you would probably argue s/w is outsourced to compilers, but that is just silly.
 
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WesternDC6B
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:42 pm

Absynth wrote:
Revelation wrote:
PW100 wrote:

This makes me wonder how long Boeing will stay in denial and keep producion at 42 planes/m and 52 engines/m. I can see them willing to eat the cost of ordering excess engines from CFM just to prevent the opportunity for Airbus to jump into that gap and increase their 320 engine orders

Either way, the silver lining for Boeing will be they will be the first airplane manufacturer to break the 1000 deliveries a year milestone. I can see them deliver up to 1200 planes next year, a record Airbus probably wont be able to break for at least 10 years.


My question is: if they keep on producing that many airframes per month, not knowing when - or if - the Max will receive clearance to fly, where can they park them all?
Remember: Only one dwarf in seven is Happy.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:46 pm

WesternDC6B wrote:
Absynth wrote:
Revelation wrote:


My question is: if they keep on producing that many airframes per month, not knowing when - or if - the Max will receive clearance to fly, where can they park them all?


There should be more space in various facilities because the airlines that aren't receiving 737s aren't over capacity and therefore don't need to park any of their aircraft. I am also confident that it is a when, not if, it will get cleared to fly. Even if they had to change the FCC hardware, it will get done eventually.
 
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unrave
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:21 pm

ArgentoSystems wrote:
unrave wrote:
$9/hr is excellent salary in India.

Maybe so, but not for expert programmers. In fact s/w development in India became so expensive companies start to move development back to NA. 60K per year would be expected cost to hire programmer there.

The fact that boeing paid $9/h, means they were hiring desperate bottom of the barrel programmers.


Calling bullshit on that one. I am very well aware of what Indian SW engineers make and their level of expertise.
Perhaps you are mixing up "cost to outsource" and "salary paid to the employer".
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:06 pm

Please continue discussion in Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Thread Q3 2019

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