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vaughanparry
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:03 am

The BBC has this piece on its website today entitled Boeing: Battle Over Blame

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/sd9LGK ... over_blame
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:36 am

vaughanparry wrote:
The BBC has this piece on its website today entitled Boeing: Battle Over Blame

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/sd9LGK ... over_blame



Yes - very in depth. I'm finding it all a bit boring now.

At the end of the day Boeing will have to prove the plane is safe to fly again regardless of who gets blamed for the two crashes so far
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:19 pm

AI126 wrote:
The FAA, on the other hand, needs to be completely revamped and metaphorically burned at the stake. I'm very happy to see Ethiopia, the EASA, CAAC, Indonesia's DGCA, TransCanada, et al. are taking such a tough stance on the FAA. That they didn't up until now after the deaths of nearly 350 innocent civilians is bad as it is, but better late than never. It's good that other regulators are intending to independently certify the MAX and not just take the FAA's word for it. It's about time that this happened, and hopefully it finally forces the FAA to get its act together already.

The FAA needs to be completely and utterly revamped and reconstituted from the ground up. That it took the deaths of nearly 350 innocent civilians is ridiculous, but let's at least do it now.

The FAA have to comply with the law that describes how it work. It look like the introduction of the FAA delegation in the law was one of the holes that aligned to create the 737 MAX MCAS issue.
 
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Asturias
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:57 pm

Boeing Says It’s Open to Changing the Name of Grounded 737 Max Jet

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 37-max-jet

Fair use quote excerpt:

Boeing Co. is open to dropping the “Max” branding for its latest 737 jetliner, depending on an assessment of consumer and airline responses to an aircraft name that’s been tarnished by two fatal crashes and a three-month grounding.

“I’d say we’re being open-minded to all the input we get,” Chief Financial Officer Greg Smith said Monday in an interview on the sidelines of the Paris Air Show. “We’re committed to doing what we need to do to restore it. If that means changing the brand to restore it, then we’ll address that. If it doesn’t, we’ll address whatever is a high priority.”
Tonight we fly
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:51 pm

Asturias wrote:
Boeing Says It’s Open to Changing the Name of Grounded 737 Max Jet

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 37-max-jet

Fair use quote excerpt:

Boeing Co. is open to dropping the “Max” branding for its latest 737 jetliner, depending on an assessment of consumer and airline responses to an aircraft name that’s been tarnished by two fatal crashes and a three-month grounding.

“I’d say we’re being open-minded to all the input we get,” Chief Financial Officer Greg Smith said Monday in an interview on the sidelines of the Paris Air Show. “We’re committed to doing what we need to do to restore it. If that means changing the brand to restore it, then we’ll address that. If it doesn’t, we’ll address whatever is a high priority.”


This is an absolute no brainer to do. But, they should continue to brand it as the MAX for the ungrounding. Then, rebrand it a few weeks later. If they do it before the ungrounding every report will say, "the Boeing 737Ultimate, formerly known as the 737MAX." If they wait for the ungrounding news to pass, the "bad reputation" will be remembered with the MAX name and the average flyer that sees 737Ultimate-8 on the safety card won't even think for a second about the crashes.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:59 pm

If a structural abnormality should occur on a MAX, such as an “externally caused” incident or even aircraft systems failure due to fire or some other structural event....

Does the MCAS system aid and assist a typically flyable plane, or would the MCAS system be JUST ANOTHER COMPLICATION, which might hinder an otherwise safe landing where as, a non-MCAS equipped aircraft would have no issue landing safely during a similar emergency?

A bit theoretical I know, but as we all know “sht happens,” and most of all one does not want it happening on your own plane.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:16 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
If a structural abnormality should occur on a MAX, such as an “externally caused” incident or even aircraft systems failure due to fire or some other structural event....

Does the MCAS system aid and assist a typically flyable plane, or would the MCAS system be JUST ANOTHER COMPLICATION, which might hinder an otherwise safe landing where as, a non-MCAS equipped aircraft would have no issue landing safely during a similar emergency?

A bit theoretical I know, but as we all know “sht happens,” and most of all one does not want it happening on your own plane.


Assuming that a flaps up landing isn't being attempted, MCAS will have nothing to do with anything as it doesn't activate with flaps out. Unless you have some sort of particular scenario in mind, it isn't even theoretical. MCAS is designed to keep the stick force gradient constant and not get lighter in certain approach to stall situations. I don't think having it become easier to stall in an emergency would be a good thing.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:27 pm

planecane wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
If a structural abnormality should occur on a MAX, such as an “externally caused” incident or even aircraft systems failure due to fire or some other structural event....

Does the MCAS system aid and assist a typically flyable plane, or would the MCAS system be JUST ANOTHER COMPLICATION, which might hinder an otherwise safe landing where as, a non-MCAS equipped aircraft would have no issue landing safely during a similar emergency?

A bit theoretical I know, but as we all know “sht happens,” and most of all one does not want it happening on your own plane.


Assuming that a flaps up landing isn't being attempted, MCAS will have nothing to do with anything as it doesn't activate with flaps out. Unless you have some sort of particular scenario in mind, it isn't even theoretical. MCAS is designed to keep the stick force gradient constant and not get lighter in certain approach to stall situations. I don't think having it become easier to stall in an emergency would be a good thing.


I was thinking of some sort of deformation of the wing, engine, and engine pylon interface actually.

Thanks for the insight regarding a flaps up landing aboard a MAX and a non MAX.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:33 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
planecane wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
If a structural abnormality should occur on a MAX, such as an “externally caused” incident or even aircraft systems failure due to fire or some other structural event....

Does the MCAS system aid and assist a typically flyable plane, or would the MCAS system be JUST ANOTHER COMPLICATION, which might hinder an otherwise safe landing where as, a non-MCAS equipped aircraft would have no issue landing safely during a similar emergency?

A bit theoretical I know, but as we all know “sht happens,” and most of all one does not want it happening on your own plane.


Assuming that a flaps up landing isn't being attempted, MCAS will have nothing to do with anything as it doesn't activate with flaps out. Unless you have some sort of particular scenario in mind, it isn't even theoretical. MCAS is designed to keep the stick force gradient constant and not get lighter in certain approach to stall situations. I don't think having it become easier to stall in an emergency would be a good thing.


I was thinking of some sort of deformation of the wing, engine, and engine pylon interface actually.

Thanks for the insight regarding a flaps up landing aboard a MAX and a non MAX.


MCAS would only activate if the speed and AoA conditions were met and it wouldn't know about the deformation. Besides, if something like that happens, no aircraft is going to perform predictably, MCAS or not. I wouldn't worry about it.

I guess if an engine falls off and then the crew is trying to get to an AoA near a stall for some reason, MCAS would make it more difficult because 1/2 of the induced lift is gone. However, if an engine falls off I think there are going to be much bigger problems to deal with.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:47 pm

planecane wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
planecane wrote:

Assuming that a flaps up landing isn't being attempted, MCAS will have nothing to do with anything as it doesn't activate with flaps out. Unless you have some sort of particular scenario in mind, it isn't even theoretical. MCAS is designed to keep the stick force gradient constant and not get lighter in certain approach to stall situations. I don't think having it become easier to stall in an emergency would be a good thing.


I was thinking of some sort of deformation of the wing, engine, and engine pylon interface actually.

Thanks for the insight regarding a flaps up landing aboard a MAX and a non MAX.


MCAS would only activate if the speed and AoA conditions were met and it wouldn't know about the deformation. Besides, if something like that happens, no aircraft is going to perform predictably, MCAS or not. I wouldn't worry about it.

I guess if an engine falls off and then the crew is trying to get to an AoA near a stall for some reason, MCAS would make it more difficult because 1/2 of the induced lift is gone. However, if an engine falls off I think there are going to be much bigger problems to deal with.


Just knowing unpredictable things in the air have occurred in the past:

•un-contained engine failures have happened
•floor collapsed onto control cables
•tires have exploded damaging wing systems
•asymmetric flap retractions
•mid air collisions
•engines caught fire
•etc...

Bricks can be made to fly with computers and thrust, but take the computer away and a brick is still a brick and all that is left is thrust (well hopefully, anyway).
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:29 pm

planecane wrote:
Asturias wrote:
Boeing Says It’s Open to Changing the Name of Grounded 737 Max Jet

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 37-max-jet

Fair use quote excerpt:

Boeing Co. is open to dropping the “Max” branding for its latest 737 jetliner, depending on an assessment of consumer and airline responses to an aircraft name that’s been tarnished by two fatal crashes and a three-month grounding.

“I’d say we’re being open-minded to all the input we get,” Chief Financial Officer Greg Smith said Monday in an interview on the sidelines of the Paris Air Show. “We’re committed to doing what we need to do to restore it. If that means changing the brand to restore it, then we’ll address that. If it doesn’t, we’ll address whatever is a high priority.”


This is an absolute no brainer to do. But, they should continue to brand it as the MAX for the ungrounding. Then, rebrand it a few weeks later. If they do it before the ungrounding every report will say, "the Boeing 737Ultimate, formerly known as the 737MAX." If they wait for the ungrounding news to pass, the "bad reputation" will be remembered with the MAX name and the average flyer that sees 737Ultimate-8 on the safety card won't even think for a second about the crashes.

I agree that the name change needs to occur a few months after grounding is lifted. Hopefully non-engineers decide the name.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:36 pm

lightsaber wrote:
planecane wrote:
Asturias wrote:
Boeing Says It’s Open to Changing the Name of Grounded 737 Max Jet

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 37-max-jet

Fair use quote excerpt:

Boeing Co. is open to dropping the “Max” branding for its latest 737 jetliner, depending on an assessment of consumer and airline responses to an aircraft name that’s been tarnished by two fatal crashes and a three-month grounding.

“I’d say we’re being open-minded to all the input we get,” Chief Financial Officer Greg Smith said Monday in an interview on the sidelines of the Paris Air Show. “We’re committed to doing what we need to do to restore it. If that means changing the brand to restore it, then we’ll address that. If it doesn’t, we’ll address whatever is a high priority.”


This is an absolute no brainer to do. But, they should continue to brand it as the MAX for the ungrounding. Then, rebrand it a few weeks later. If they do it before the ungrounding every report will say, "the Boeing 737Ultimate, formerly known as the 737MAX." If they wait for the ungrounding news to pass, the "bad reputation" will be remembered with the MAX name and the average flyer that sees 737Ultimate-8 on the safety card won't even think for a second about the crashes.

I agree that the name change needs to occur a few months after grounding is lifted. Hopefully non-engineers decide the name.

Lightsaber

Just drop the MAX part and make it 737-8 etc. There is no reason to market it in a differentiating way anymore. Nobody is ordering the NG anymore.

That or call it the 737FG (final generation).
 
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ER757
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:37 pm

planecane wrote:
Asturias wrote:
Boeing Says It’s Open to Changing the Name of Grounded 737 Max Jet

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 37-max-jet

Fair use quote excerpt:

Boeing Co. is open to dropping the “Max” branding for its latest 737 jetliner, depending on an assessment of consumer and airline responses to an aircraft name that’s been tarnished by two fatal crashes and a three-month grounding.

“I’d say we’re being open-minded to all the input we get,” Chief Financial Officer Greg Smith said Monday in an interview on the sidelines of the Paris Air Show. “We’re committed to doing what we need to do to restore it. If that means changing the brand to restore it, then we’ll address that. If it doesn’t, we’ll address whatever is a high priority.”


This is an absolute no brainer to do. But, they should continue to brand it as the MAX for the ungrounding. Then, rebrand it a few weeks later. If they do it before the ungrounding every report will say, "the Boeing 737Ultimate, formerly known as the 737MAX." If they wait for the ungrounding news to pass, the "bad reputation" will be remembered with the MAX name and the average flyer that sees 737Ultimate-8 on the safety card won't even think for a second about the crashes.

That is a well thought out response to the notion of a name change - you nailed it. Doing so before it's back in the air will simply bring immediate attention to all that the new name is simply the Max with a new moniker. FWIW, this might be the one positive thing to come out of the whole affair, ditching that hideous name - always thought is was just an awful idea.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:06 am

Let’s face it... most people hated the tiny bathrooms on the MAX anyway.
The slimline not padded seats did no help either.

Here is a chance for the airlines to get this part right during a rebranding.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
FTMCPIUS
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:28 am

Asturias wrote:
Boeing Says It’s Open to Changing the Name of Grounded 737 Max Jet

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 37-max-jet

Fair use quote excerpt:

Boeing Co. is open to dropping the “Max” branding for its latest 737 jetliner, depending on an assessment of consumer and airline responses to an aircraft name that’s been tarnished by two fatal crashes and a three-month grounding.

“I’d say we’re being open-minded to all the input we get,” Chief Financial Officer Greg Smith said Monday in an interview on the sidelines of the Paris Air Show. “We’re committed to doing what we need to do to restore it. If that means changing the brand to restore it, then we’ll address that. If it doesn’t, we’ll address whatever is a high priority.”

Removing the "A" = MX. This would eliminate harsh-sounding Max and be fairly easy for B to update its manuals, promotional materials, etc.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:18 am

FTMCPIUS wrote:
Asturias wrote:
Boeing Says It’s Open to Changing the Name of Grounded 737 Max Jet

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 37-max-jet

Fair use quote excerpt:

Boeing Co. is open to dropping the “Max” branding for its latest 737 jetliner, depending on an assessment of consumer and airline responses to an aircraft name that’s been tarnished by two fatal crashes and a three-month grounding.

“I’d say we’re being open-minded to all the input we get,” Chief Financial Officer Greg Smith said Monday in an interview on the sidelines of the Paris Air Show. “We’re committed to doing what we need to do to restore it. If that means changing the brand to restore it, then we’ll address that. If it doesn’t, we’ll address whatever is a high priority.”

Removing the "A" = MX. This would eliminate harsh-sounding Max and be fairly easy for B to update its manuals, promotional materials, etc.

MX, as in needs it frequently? :spin:
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:51 am

Asturias wrote:
Boeing Says It’s Open to Changing the Name of Grounded 737 Max Jet

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 37-max-jet

Fair use quote excerpt:

Boeing Co. is open to dropping the “Max” branding for its latest 737 jetliner, depending on an assessment of consumer and airline responses to an aircraft name that’s been tarnished by two fatal crashes and a three-month grounding.

“I’d say we’re being open-minded to all the input we get,” Chief Financial Officer Greg Smith said Monday in an interview on the sidelines of the Paris Air Show. “We’re committed to doing what we need to do to restore it. If that means changing the brand to restore it, then we’ll address that. If it doesn’t, we’ll address whatever is a high priority.”

Yeah, I bet a dollar that Boeing already has a team in place working on rebranding the aircraft. Someone here suggested just using 737-8, -9, -10 and I think that would probably be the best thing to do. IATA codes (B38M, B39M) would remain the same.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA HA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:22 am

Is it really worth going on with the Boeing MAX 10?

I think Boeing realistically should announce the cancellation of the MAX 10 program as we all know it will never enter service or see the light of day (as branded). Kind of a safe starter for Boeing.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
IADFCO
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:59 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
planecane wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
If a structural abnormality should occur on a MAX, such as an “externally caused” incident or even aircraft systems failure due to fire or some other structural event....

Does the MCAS system aid and assist a typically flyable plane, or would the MCAS system be JUST ANOTHER COMPLICATION, which might hinder an otherwise safe landing where as, a non-MCAS equipped aircraft would have no issue landing safely during a similar emergency?

A bit theoretical I know, but as we all know “sht happens,” and most of all one does not want it happening on your own plane.


Assuming that a flaps up landing isn't being attempted, MCAS will have nothing to do with anything as it doesn't activate with flaps out. Unless you have some sort of particular scenario in mind, it isn't even theoretical. MCAS is designed to keep the stick force gradient constant and not get lighter in certain approach to stall situations. I don't think having it become easier to stall in an emergency would be a good thing.


I was thinking of some sort of deformation of the wing, engine, and engine pylon interface actually.

Thanks for the insight regarding a flaps up landing aboard a MAX and a non MAX.


It's probably not what you were thinking, but a scenario that would concern me is a turn following an engine failure, approaching stall but with MCAS activating only once in the turn. Then you might have a troublesome wing airflow situation further complicated by yawed flow due to sideslip, and no MCAS protection, leading to a stall hard to recover from.

In this scenario, things could be made even worse by a worried pilot ("high gain pilot") and/or a pilot distracted by all the other warnings and things to do to cope with the failure ("low dwell fraction"). Both could lead to PIO-like instabilities.

The aerodynamic scenario is just an informed speculation, as there are no publicly available data. The pilot issues are well known in the handling qualities technical community, and I'm sure that there are many knowledgeable people within Boeing. So it may be a serious problem or a minor nuisance, we outside Boeing don't know.

However, if I were the FAA or EASA, I would definitely test the scenario in flight. I don't think it would take more than a half hour to check.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:14 am

planecane wrote:
Asturias wrote:
Boeing Says It’s Open to Changing the Name of Grounded 737 Max Jet

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 37-max-jet

Fair use quote excerpt:

Boeing Co. is open to dropping the “Max” branding for its latest 737 jetliner, depending on an assessment of consumer and airline responses to an aircraft name that’s been tarnished by two fatal crashes and a three-month grounding.

“I’d say we’re being open-minded to all the input we get,” Chief Financial Officer Greg Smith said Monday in an interview on the sidelines of the Paris Air Show. “We’re committed to doing what we need to do to restore it. If that means changing the brand to restore it, then we’ll address that. If it doesn’t, we’ll address whatever is a high priority.”


This is an absolute no brainer to do. But, they should continue to brand it as the MAX for the ungrounding. Then, rebrand it a few weeks later. If they do it before the ungrounding every report will say, "the Boeing 737Ultimate, formerly known as the 737MAX." If they wait for the ungrounding news to pass, the "bad reputation" will be remembered with the MAX name and the average flyer that sees 737Ultimate-8 on the safety card won't even think for a second about the crashes.

Progressively change the name of each MAX as and when the hardware and software changes are completed.
 
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BoeingVista
Posts: 1958
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:30 am

dampfnudel wrote:
Asturias wrote:
Boeing Says It’s Open to Changing the Name of Grounded 737 Max Jet

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 37-max-jet

Fair use quote excerpt:

Boeing Co. is open to dropping the “Max” branding for its latest 737 jetliner, depending on an assessment of consumer and airline responses to an aircraft name that’s been tarnished by two fatal crashes and a three-month grounding.

“I’d say we’re being open-minded to all the input we get,” Chief Financial Officer Greg Smith said Monday in an interview on the sidelines of the Paris Air Show. “We’re committed to doing what we need to do to restore it. If that means changing the brand to restore it, then we’ll address that. If it doesn’t, we’ll address whatever is a high priority.”

Yeah, I bet a dollar that Boeing already has a team in place working on rebranding the aircraft. Someone here suggested just using 737-8, -9, -10 and I think that would probably be the best thing to do. IATA codes (B38M, B39M) would remain the same.


There is the danger though that rebranding the MAX could to an uninformed public make all 737's the MAX, they are not going to know the difference between a 737-8 & a 737-800
BV
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:55 am

IADFCO wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
planecane wrote:

Assuming that a flaps up landing isn't being attempted, MCAS will have nothing to do with anything as it doesn't activate with flaps out. Unless you have some sort of particular scenario in mind, it isn't even theoretical. MCAS is designed to keep the stick force gradient constant and not get lighter in certain approach to stall situations. I don't think having it become easier to stall in an emergency would be a good thing.


I was thinking of some sort of deformation of the wing, engine, and engine pylon interface actually.

Thanks for the insight regarding a flaps up landing aboard a MAX and a non MAX.


It's probably not what you were thinking, but a scenario that would concern me is a turn following an engine failure, approaching stall but with MCAS activating only once in the turn. Then you might have a troublesome wing airflow situation further complicated by yawed flow due to sideslip, and no MCAS protection, leading to a stall hard to recover from.

In this scenario, things could be made even worse by a worried pilot ("high gain pilot") and/or a pilot distracted by all the other warnings and things to do to cope with the failure ("low dwell fraction"). Both could lead to PIO-like instabilities.

The aerodynamic scenario is just an informed speculation, as there are no publicly available data. The pilot issues are well known in the handling qualities technical community, and I'm sure that there are many knowledgeable people within Boeing. So it may be a serious problem or a minor nuisance, we outside Boeing don't know.

However, if I were the FAA or EASA, I would definitely test the scenario in flight. I don't think it would take more than a half hour to check.


Why would MCAS need to activate more than once in the same turn? The speed should be pretty constant and as the AoA increases past the threshold for that speed, MCAS will activate. It is going to move the trim for up to 10 seconds to the point where the stick force gradient is correct. It isn't going to back out the trim that it put in at that point. If the pilots are incompetent and somehow keep increasing the AoA towards a stall during the turn after MCAS activates, MCAS will reach the maximum trim input. 10 seconds is a long time. Once it has reached the maximum trim input for that airspeed, it can't need to activate again because it was never supposed to in normal operations. The only way it would need to activate again is if the AoA is reduced to the point that MCAS takes out the trim that it put in because it is "done" and then the pilots start to approach a stall again.

In your scenario, the issue woudl be if the pilots counteracted MCAS for some resaon.when it was actually needed. However, I'm pretty sure that you aren't supposed to trim in a turn (correct me if I'm wrong) so they shoudn't be counteracting anything but an MCAS runaway at that pont.

I think people are misunderstanding the single activation per event and thinking it means that it was designed to activate more than once per event. Letting it activate more than once per event was the biggest screw up, not the design intention. That's what gave it unlimited authority to go tot he nose down stop.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:57 am

BoeingVista wrote:
dampfnudel wrote:
Asturias wrote:
Boeing Says It’s Open to Changing the Name of Grounded 737 Max Jet

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 37-max-jet

Fair use quote excerpt:

Boeing Co. is open to dropping the “Max” branding for its latest 737 jetliner, depending on an assessment of consumer and airline responses to an aircraft name that’s been tarnished by two fatal crashes and a three-month grounding.

“I’d say we’re being open-minded to all the input we get,” Chief Financial Officer Greg Smith said Monday in an interview on the sidelines of the Paris Air Show. “We’re committed to doing what we need to do to restore it. If that means changing the brand to restore it, then we’ll address that. If it doesn’t, we’ll address whatever is a high priority.”

Yeah, I bet a dollar that Boeing already has a team in place working on rebranding the aircraft. Someone here suggested just using 737-8, -9, -10 and I think that would probably be the best thing to do. IATA codes (B38M, B39M) would remain the same.


There is the danger though that rebranding the MAX could to an uninformed public make all 737's the MAX, they are not going to know the difference between a 737-8 & a 737-800


They already do. My neighbor said he flew "on one of those planes that crashed" a couple of months back (after the grounding). He was also flying Delta.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:29 am

planecane wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
planecane wrote:

This is an absolute no brainer to do. But, they should continue to brand it as the MAX for the ungrounding. Then, rebrand it a few weeks later. If they do it before the ungrounding every report will say, "the Boeing 737Ultimate, formerly known as the 737MAX." If they wait for the ungrounding news to pass, the "bad reputation" will be remembered with the MAX name and the average flyer that sees 737Ultimate-8 on the safety card won't even think for a second about the crashes.

I agree that the name change needs to occur a few months after grounding is lifted. Hopefully non-engineers decide the name.

Lightsaber

Just drop the MAX part and make it 737-8 etc. There is no reason to market it in a differentiating way anymore. Nobody is ordering the NG anymore.

That or call it the 737FG (final generation).



Maybe 737LG? Last generation? :biggrin:
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:46 am

dampfnudel wrote:
Yeah, I bet a dollar that Boeing already has a team in place working on rebranding the aircraft. Someone here suggested just using 737-8, -9, -10 and I think that would probably be the best thing to do. IATA codes (B38M, B39M) would remain the same.

Not only that, but most most (if not all) administrative documents use the 737-8 and 737-9 names (see the A16WE type certificate for example). The "MAX" seem to be only a marketing addition.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:57 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Is it really worth going on with the Boeing MAX 10?

I think Boeing realistically should announce the cancellation of the MAX 10 program as we all know it will never enter service or see the light of day (as branded). Kind of a safe starter for Boeing.


They'd be dumb to not have anything to offer in that segment, and I'm sure most of the work is done at this point.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:00 am

Going to be tricky NOT to drag normal 737's into the bad publicity

One thing that shouldn't happen is making it hard for the public to know what they are on and make a choice etc
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:32 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
If a structural abnormality should occur on a MAX, such as an “externally caused” incident or even aircraft systems failure due to fire or some other structural event....

Does the MCAS system aid and assist a typically flyable plane, or would the MCAS system be JUST ANOTHER COMPLICATION, which might hinder an otherwise safe landing where as, a non-MCAS equipped aircraft would have no issue landing safely during a similar emergency?

A bit theoretical I know, but as we all know “sht happens,” and most of all one does not want it happening on your own plane.


Perhaps they can take this opportunity to rename MCAS to System for Characteristic and Augmentated Manouvering . . .
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konrad
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:34 am

737 MAX > 737 MCAS ?

OK, let's get serious: 737 MAX > 737 PAX ?
Saving on paint, just a bit...
 
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PW100
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:37 am

oschkosch wrote:
planecane wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I agree that the name change needs to occur a few months after grounding is lifted. Hopefully non-engineers decide the name.
Lightsaber

Just drop the MAX part and make it 737-8 etc. There is no reason to market it in a differentiating way anymore. Nobody is ordering the NG anymore.
That or call it the 737FG (final generation).

Maybe 737LG? Last generation? :biggrin:


737MG (Max/Mcas Generation):
Image
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:39 am

PW100 wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
If a structural abnormality should occur on a MAX, such as an “externally caused” incident or even aircraft systems failure due to fire or some other structural event....

Does the MCAS system aid and assist a typically flyable plane, or would the MCAS system be JUST ANOTHER COMPLICATION, which might hinder an otherwise safe landing where as, a non-MCAS equipped aircraft would have no issue landing safely during a similar emergency?

A bit theoretical I know, but as we all know “sht happens,” and most of all one does not want it happening on your own plane.


Perhaps they can take this opportunity to rename MCAS to System for Characteristic and Augmentated Manouvering . . .


SCAM? lol
BV
 
FrancisBegbie
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:51 am

Asturias wrote:
Boeing Says It’s Open to Changing the Name of Grounded 737 Max Jet

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 37-max-jet

Fair use quote excerpt:

Boeing Co. is open to dropping the “Max” branding for its latest 737 jetliner, depending on an assessment of consumer and airline responses to an aircraft name that’s been tarnished by two fatal crashes and a three-month grounding.

“I’d say we’re being open-minded to all the input we get,” Chief Financial Officer Greg Smith said Monday in an interview on the sidelines of the Paris Air Show. “We’re committed to doing what we need to do to restore it. If that means changing the brand to restore it, then we’ll address that. If it doesn’t, we’ll address whatever is a high priority.”


Sure. To add some historical perspective they could go for MD-37, MD-38, MD-39. It’s not like we’re miles away from any similarities...
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:18 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
If a structural abnormality should occur on a MAX, such as an “externally caused” incident or even aircraft systems failure due to fire or some other structural event....
Does the MCAS system aid and assist a typically flyable plane, or would the MCAS system be JUST ANOTHER COMPLICATION, which might hinder an otherwise safe landing where as, a non-MCAS equipped aircraft would have no issue landing safely during a similar emergency?



The way you ask that shows that you know the answer, right?
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:11 pm

I don't see a name change in the cards. Like, why? It is a safe plane, and they just made it even safer. Now it is the safest airplaine ever to to roam the skies. :twisted: It is not something to be embarrassed about. If anything, they should repaint MAX in a bigger and bolder font.

Now, if instead they decide to change the name, that make me (as a member of general public) think wait... Something is wrong with that airplane if they had to hide it's original name.
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:17 pm

Seriously though I think airlines would oppose such move very strongly, especially those that don't plan to own MAXes in future, since that just extends the bad publicity to all of 737.
 
LDRA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:31 pm

Rebrand as 797, problem solved
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:51 pm

The Muilenburg death watch has begun:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... g-survive/
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ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:27 pm

I'd like to get back to the issue of the 'mistake' of not communicating the about the AOA warning light.

First, I think it is ridiculous that they call it a mistake. More like a deliberate decision to circumvent the process. They should name the person in charge of it and publicly fire them to make a point.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:40 pm

Why shouldn't he go. Under his watch Boeing can't make 737s, 767s, 777s, so has become a one horse disaster. And as I before have mentioned, Boeing doesn't like its mechanics, engineers, home state despite billions in illegal tax abatements, and now apparently the airlines who used to buy its planes, nor their passengers. (Note, this is a bit of an exaggeration from a home teamer)
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:51 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Why shouldn't he go. Under his watch Boeing can't make 737s, 767s, 777s, so has become a one horse disaster. And as I before have mentioned, Boeing doesn't like its mechanics, engineers, home state despite billions in illegal tax abatements, and now apparently the airlines who used to buy its planes, nor their passengers. (Note, this is a bit of an exaggeration from a home teamer)

I think he will go, but only after MAX is back to shipping 50+/month so his successor doesn't have to unwind this mess.

Unfortunately for him the world has gotten to know his face through the MAX tragedy, and unfortunately such associations are hard to break, so I think he will have to go.

The good news for him is that he is clearing tens of millions of dollars per annum till he finally does go, and when he's finally gone he'll have the kind of retirement package that mere mortals can only dream of.
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Asturias
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:04 pm

Revelation wrote:
The Muilenburg death watch has begun:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... g-survive/


That's a damn shame, Muilenburg wasn't the CEO when the MAX was designed or launched. I have great faith in the man, he's a Boeing lifetime employee, engineer and seems very level-headed.

Right now, Boeing needs a man like Muilenburg and does not need to start sacrificing scapegoats to please real or imagined critics. Calling for his departure from the company is extremely myopic and I hope it will not come to pass.
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9Patch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:52 pm

Asturias wrote:
Revelation wrote:
The Muilenburg death watch has begun:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... g-survive/


That's a damn shame, Muilenburg wasn't the CEO when the MAX was designed or launched. I have great faith in the man, he's a Boeing lifetime employee, engineer and seems very level-headed.

Right now, Boeing needs a man like Muilenburg and does not need to start sacrificing scapegoats to please real or imagined critics. Calling for his departure from the company is extremely myopic and I hope it will not come to pass.

Right on.
The public doesn't care if Mullenburg is fired or not.
Most people don't know who the CEO of Boeing is (or Airbus).
Canning him will do nothing to restore confidence in the brand.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:00 pm

9Patch wrote:
Asturias wrote:
That's a damn shame, Muilenburg wasn't the CEO when the MAX was designed or launched. I have great faith in the man, he's a Boeing lifetime employee, engineer and seems very level-headed.

Right now, Boeing needs a man like Muilenburg and does not need to start sacrificing scapegoats to please real or imagined critics. Calling for his departure from the company is extremely myopic and I hope it will not come to pass.

Right on.
The public doesn't care if Mullenburg is fired or not.
Most people don't know who the CEO of Boeing is (or Airbus).
Canning him will do nothing to restore confidence in the brand.

Yet having a major leasing customer publicly questioning his future at a major industry event, citing his actions (or lack thereof) during the crisis, is pretty damning.

Those are the kinds of messages the BoD (i.e. Muilenburg's bosses) listen to.

Personally I hope he makes it through, but eventually a reckoning will have to come and I don't think it'll end well for him, given he owns the crisis management phase of this tragedy.
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PixelPilot
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:04 pm

Revelation wrote:
9Patch wrote:
Asturias wrote:
That's a damn shame, Muilenburg wasn't the CEO when the MAX was designed or launched. I have great faith in the man, he's a Boeing lifetime employee, engineer and seems very level-headed.

Right now, Boeing needs a man like Muilenburg and does not need to start sacrificing scapegoats to please real or imagined critics. Calling for his departure from the company is extremely myopic and I hope it will not come to pass.

Right on.
The public doesn't care if Mullenburg is fired or not.
Most people don't know who the CEO of Boeing is (or Airbus).
Canning him will do nothing to restore confidence in the brand.

Yet having a major leasing customer publicly questioning his future at a major industry event, citing his actions (or lack thereof) during the crisis, is pretty damning.

Those are the kinds of messages the BoD (i.e. Muilenburg's bosses) listen to.

Personally I hope he makes it through, but eventually a reckoning will have to come and I don't think it'll end well for him, given he owns the crisis management phase of this tragedy.


Looks like MAX will be fine after the IAG announcement.
I see this endorsement as a vote of confidence + a good deal of course but those people know a lot more about the state of the aircraft that anybody here.
Shitstorm from A fanboiz is coming that's for sure. After all max is dead and Boeing should die.. lol. I guess BA will lose customers now too and will sink as well duh!
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:13 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Looks like MAX will be fine after the IAG announcement.

That's an extremely premature statement, IMO.

Yet I've said on this thread a few times now that one year from now this will all be a fading memory, and I stand by that.

Let's see the FAA take its long awaited test flight with Boeing and have some public sign of FAA's acceptance before we get too giddy.
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PixelPilot
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Looks like MAX will be fine after the IAG announcement.

That's an extremely premature statement, IMO.

Yet I've said on this thread a few times now that one year from now this will all be a fading memory, and I stand by that.

Let's see the FAA take its long awaited test flight with Boeing and have some public sign of FAA's acceptance before we get too giddy.


I see your point but I have good faith in regulators and the manufacturer to fix the issue and make this bird absolutely safe.
At this point unless there is some hidden problem that we don't know about the max slots are set for quite some time.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:30 pm

IADFCO wrote:
It's probably not what you were thinking, but a scenario that would concern me is a turn following an engine failure, approaching stall but with MCAS activating only once in the turn. Then you might have a troublesome wing airflow situation further complicated by yawed flow due to sideslip, and no MCAS protection, leading to a stall hard to recover from.

In this scenario, things could be made even worse by a worried pilot ("high gain pilot") and/or a pilot distracted by all the other warnings and things to do to cope with the failure ("low dwell fraction"). Both could lead to PIO-like instabilities.

The aerodynamic scenario is just an informed speculation, as there are no publicly available data. The pilot issues are well known in the handling qualities technical community, and I'm sure that there are many knowledgeable people within Boeing. So it may be a serious problem or a minor nuisance, we outside Boeing don't know.

However, if I were the FAA or EASA, I would definitely test the scenario in flight. I don't think it would take more than a half hour to check.


Thanks for an additional perspective.


asdf wrote:
The way you ask that shows that you know the answer, right?


I have my suspicions.

gatibosgru wrote:

They'd be dumb to not have anything to offer in that segment, and I'm sure most of the work is done at this point.


The MAX is never flying again as the MAX. The 10 might and probably will with improvements.

PW100 wrote:

Perhaps they can take this opportunity to rename MCAS to System for Characteristic and Augmentated Manouvering . . .


Uniquely oblique (;

BoeingVista wrote:

SCAM? lol


Witty
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:40 pm

Revelation wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Looks like MAX will be fine after the IAG announcement.

That's an extremely premature statement, IMO.

Yet I've said on this thread a few times now that one year from now this will all be a fading memory, and I stand by that.

Let's see the FAA take its long awaited test flight with Boeing and have some public sign of FAA's acceptance before we get too giddy.


Do you think that Boeing would have submitted the fix and begun the process of the FAA test flight if they weren't absolutely sure it would perform perfectly in the testing? You want to talk about bad press, imagine if the FAA found issues in the certification test flight.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:54 pm

AI126 wrote:
Boeing, as a corporation, has and only one single job: maximize profits no matter what. This is literally what a corporation is designed to do by law, and if they don't do that, that means that they are breaking the law. And yes that means that they maximize profits no matter how many things go wrong or how many people lose their lives because of shoddy practices on their part.

That's not entirely true.

In a technical sense, shipping flawed aircraft comes with a price, which directly hampers the ROI. Financially spoken, the MAX as it was will generate much less profit compared to a properly designed one. We can already say, that MCASv1 will have one of the worst ROIs of any technical solutions in aviation ever. It was a trade off, going cheap did win at first, but the outcome now could mean, that the associated cost could reach levels of an entirely new program (the worst cost figures, that circulated in the press to handle the grounding, the compensation of punitive damages, was multi billions).

Therefore, how can you consider the MAX as a profit maximizing aircraft? Its profit destroying on an unseen scale.
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KlimaBXsst
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:41 pm

So what would make the “last generation 737” better to rehabilitate its image?

I proposed a mid cabin boarding door on the 8 and 9 to quicken turn around times.

Not looking for negatives like “can’t and won’t happen,” but positives that would get people to want to get onboard

73 rebranded 7?
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!

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