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TC957
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Re: Thomas Cook Airlines Selling Discussion Thread

Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:21 pm

Jet2 don't have a big network of expensive retail outlets to feed the tour operation. Instead they work with the retail travel trade of other companies and of course their own website distribution channel.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Thomas Cook Airlines Selling Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:48 pm

There are reports that Thomas Cook has put off a crunch meeting with its bondholder creditors until next week, giving the stricken tour operator more time to sort out a £1.1bn rescue package. A big problem is that the hedge funds which hold bonds can derail the rescue bid if the credit default swaps (CDS) they bought on their loans, which act as a kind of insurance that only pays out if the bonds become worthless, are not triggered. So, TC is trying to reorganise its debt in a way that will trigger losses for bondholders.but this is a complicated thing to do.

On the ATOL front, it seems as if the CAA has not been convinced that the licence should be renewed for another year as a licenced TC which collapses after 30 September will be a huge failure which would require an unprecedented drain on the Air Travel Trust Fund to repatriate stranded people and to provide refunds.
 
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adv40624
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Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:21 am

Thomas Cook Group Plc has filed for Chapter 15 court protection in the U.S. as part of a broader debt restructuring for the U.K. travel agent.

The company’s Chapter 15 petition was filed in the Southern District of New York, court papers dated Sept. 16 show. Law firm Latham & Watkins is representing the company, according to the documents.

Chapter 15 of U.S. bankruptcy law shields foreign companies from lawsuits by U.S. creditors while they reorganize in another country. The filing may also trigger the payout of default insurance on Thomas Cook debt.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/thomas-c ... 25861.html
 
Blerg
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Re: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:32 am

What does this mean for their European operations?
 
phollingsworth
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Re: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:14 am

Blerg wrote:
What does this mean for their European operations?


In actuality not a whole lot. What it really does is prevent Thomas Cook's US creditors from seeking to collect the debt or collateral in the interim or separate from any proceedings that take place in the UK. However, it does signify that TC feels, at least under US law, that they are insolvent. Further, in some cases the UG court could force companies for which TC is a creditor to pay off their debts earlier than anticipated.
 
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DL747400
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Re: Thomas Cook Airlines Selling Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:59 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Another European airline being suicidally competitive. Its the USA in the 1990's all over again.

Consolidation is needed now!


I was going to say the USA in the 1980's, but I do agree with your statement. Europe is desperately in need of consolidation in the airline sector so that the industry can reorganize and financially stabilize itself.

For a long long time, I've been curious: Why have "tour & package holiday" companies such as Thomas Cook long occupied a larger segment of the market in Europe than in the USA and elsewhere? Here in the States, their share of the market is tiny by comparison to the UK and Europe.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
KingB123
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:02 pm

Honestly, just sell off the company and let the other airlines chew it apart and take what is needed, this wont last much longer.
King B
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Thomas Cook Airlines Selling Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:22 pm

DL747400 wrote:

For a long long time, I've been curious: Why have "tour & package holiday" companies such as Thomas Cook long occupied a larger segment of the market in Europe than in the USA and elsewhere? Here in the States, their share of the market is tiny by comparison to the UK and Europe.


I would offer that the answer to that is less European labor market flexibility. It's easier to lay off employees in the U.S., and the bankruptcy courts showed a willingness to cut wages and benefits (see, for example, https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2005/02/ual-f08.html ) that does not exist in major countries in Europe. I'm not arguing that this is fair or desirable to employees, but it does show that AA/DL/UA were able to restructure to meet LCC competition more readily than AF/BA/LH/AZ. So, a market for low-cost tour operators exists in Europe while the demand is met by legacy and LCC carriers in the U.S.
 
aircrew
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:39 pm

Sorry to see TC in this predicament, such an iconic brand. Very surprised that the British news (BBC News incl) have not (as of this posting time) reported the BK Filing in the USA.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Thomas Cook Airlines Selling Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:20 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Another European airline being suicidally competitive. Its the USA in the 1990's all over again.

Consolidation is needed now!


I was going to say the USA in the 1980's, but I do agree with your statement. Europe is desperately in need of consolidation in the airline sector so that the industry can reorganize and financially stabilize itself.

For a long long time, I've been curious: Why have "tour & package holiday" companies such as Thomas Cook long occupied a larger segment of the market in Europe than in the USA and elsewhere? Here in the States, their share of the market is tiny by comparison to the UK and Europe.


Security. Book the holidays with a tour operator and everything becomes the tour operator´s risk. If an airline goes bust, the tour operator has to refund you, if the hotel is overbooked, same, and so on.
 
flyjay123
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Re: Thomas Cook Airlines Selling Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:24 pm

For a long long time, I've been curious: Why have "tour & package holiday" companies such as Thomas Cook long occupied a larger segment of the market in Europe than in the USA and elsewhere? /quote]



Canada's leisure orientated airlines and tour/ package holiday companies have held a successfull share of the market historically.
 
JHwk
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Re: Thomas Cook Airlines Selling Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:27 pm

DL747400 wrote:
For a long long time, I've been curious: Why have "tour & package holiday" companies such as Thomas Cook long occupied a larger segment of the market in Europe than in the USA and elsewhere? Here in the States, their share of the market is tiny by comparison to the UK and Europe.

More (and real) vacation time in Europe, harsher winters, and more countries within a 6-hour flight time that don’t speak your native tongue. For the UK specifically I am not sure about the difference, as their vacation time is similar to the US.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Thomas Cook Airlines Selling Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:29 pm

DL747400 wrote:
For a long long time, I've been curious: Why have "tour & package holiday" companies such as Thomas Cook long occupied a larger segment of the market in Europe than in the USA and elsewhere? Here in the States, their share of the market is tiny by comparison to the UK and Europe.


Without going too off-topic and I say this with the greatest of respect to Americans, I would hazard a guess that Europeans that Thomas Cook and other European-based firms cater for are more prepared and wanting to travel to different countries.

In the USA, it's perfectly possible to experience different climates within the same country, so anybody from say the northern part of the USA wanting a beach holiday can head to places such as Florida or California. Many European nations don't have that luxury due to their size and climates being similar more or less nationwide, so anybody from the likes of the UK, Germany and other Northern European nations wanting a beach holiday in warm weather have to go to the likes of Spain, Greece, Portugal etc. where it is guaranteed. In the UK, the advent of package holidays 50 years ago allowed people who would have otherwise spent their summer holidays at places such as Blackpool to go abroad.

How some of these package holiday firms have or haven't moved with the times is a different subject, though no doubt some will look at whether Thomas Cook have reacted sufficiently given the changes to the package holiday landscape over the last 20 years and decide whether it's linked to their current woes.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:30 pm

aircrew wrote:
Sorry to see TC in this predicament, such an iconic brand. Very surprised that the British news (BBC News incl) have not (as of this posting time) reported the BK Filing in the USA.


It's really not a big deal - they just need their European filing recognized in the States. It's not anything new or different from what has already happened in Europe.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Thomas Cook Airlines Selling Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:38 pm

seahawk wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Another European airline being suicidally competitive. Its the USA in the 1990's all over again.

Consolidation is needed now!


I was going to say the USA in the 1980's, but I do agree with your statement. Europe is desperately in need of consolidation in the airline sector so that the industry can reorganize and financially stabilize itself.

For a long long time, I've been curious: Why have "tour & package holiday" companies such as Thomas Cook long occupied a larger segment of the market in Europe than in the USA and elsewhere? Here in the States, their share of the market is tiny by comparison to the UK and Europe.


Security. Book the holidays with a tour operator and everything becomes the tour operator´s risk. If an airline goes bust, the tour operator has to refund you, if the hotel is overbooked, same, and so on.


The European Tourism market grew early really big, especially before the Internet. The need for holidays in the south (Mediterranean etc.) was already big in the late 70s & early 80s, before there actually were LCCs and ULCCs. As there is also, due to the social-democratic protection, a lot of "holiday time" available people wanted to go away, preferably by plane. Driving to holiday is there but not as huge has in the US for example.

This were the best foundations for package holiday companies, and as demand grew this companies built their own resorts and bought their own aircraft to drive prices down, as buying tickets on legacy carriers back then was really expensive.

Now that the generation of holidaymakers changes from package bookers to the generation of digital natives that use new forms of booking, all them companies slowly die.

In the US it was always ok to drive hours if not even days to your destination. Motels are common along the high ways. In Europe this kind of accommodation was never really established and if you didnt had a camper and were not able to reach your target within a 12-16h drive you had to fly.

EDIT: On top of that, there are a lot of natural barriers to cross that made driving a torture: The alps/pyrenees and the channel
 
phollingsworth
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:13 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
aircrew wrote:
Sorry to see TC in this predicament, such an iconic brand. Very surprised that the British news (BBC News incl) have not (as of this posting time) reported the BK Filing in the USA.


It's really not a big deal - they just need their European filing recognized in the States. It's not anything new or different from what has already happened in Europe.


There actually hasn’t been the equivalent a filling in the UK, as of yet. What the overall group is trying to do is something similar to a CVA where the creditors agree to take a haircut. Strictly speaking the UK doesn’t have the equivalent of the US Bankruptcy code, especially to Ch 11. Companies are at risk while trying to negotiate a CVA. This is part of what the Ch 15 filling does, prevents US creditors from calling in debts. If TC agree on a CVA or similar then the second part of the filing applies, as you mentioned. Also, in some cases the Ch 15 filing may allow credit default swaps to become active, increasing the likelihood that creditors will agree to the CVA.

If the airline ends up having to call in the administrators they will cease operations immediately as they will lose their AOC.
 
phollingsworth
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Re: Thomas Cook Airlines Selling Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:17 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:

For a long long time, I've been curious: Why have "tour & package holiday" companies such as Thomas Cook long occupied a larger segment of the market in Europe than in the USA and elsewhere? Here in the States, their share of the market is tiny by comparison to the UK and Europe.


I would offer that the answer to that is less European labor market flexibility. It's easier to lay off employees in the U.S., and the bankruptcy courts showed a willingness to cut wages and benefits (see, for example, https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2005/02/ual-f08.html ) that does not exist in major countries in Europe. I'm not arguing that this is fair or desirable to employees, but it does show that AA/DL/UA were able to restructure to meet LCC competition more readily than AF/BA/LH/AZ. So, a market for low-cost tour operators exists in Europe while the demand is met by legacy and LCC carriers in the U.S.


Keep in mind that the type of restructuring pursued by the likes of AA/DL/UA/US/NW in the US is not available to UK airlines. Outside of administration all other restructuring is under voluntary agreements that are not protected. In administration the company is run by an outside group on behalf of the creditors and does get some protection. However, because the airline is not longer run by “fit and proper” persons the CAA will immediately suspend its AOC. This means the airline must cease to trade and be liquidated.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:24 pm

phollingsworth wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
aircrew wrote:
Sorry to see TC in this predicament, such an iconic brand. Very surprised that the British news (BBC News incl) have not (as of this posting time) reported the BK Filing in the USA.


It's really not a big deal - they just need their European filing recognized in the States. It's not anything new or different from what has already happened in Europe.


There actually hasn’t been the equivalent a filling in the UK, as of yet. What the overall group is trying to do is something similar to a CVA where the creditors agree to take a haircut. Strictly speaking the UK doesn’t have the equivalent of the US Bankruptcy code, especially to Ch 11. Companies are at risk while trying to negotiate a CVA. This is part of what the Ch 15 filling does, prevents US creditors from calling in debts. If TC agree on a CVA or similar then the second part of the filing applies, as you mentioned. Also, in some cases the Ch 15 filing may allow credit default swaps to become active, increasing the likelihood that creditors will agree to the CVA.

If the airline ends up having to call in the administrators they will cease operations immediately as they will lose their AOC.


I don't know the ins and outs of UK restructuring law, but debtors file a 15 to seek recognition of a foreign proceeding, so I'm reasonably certain there's a proceeding somewhere.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:28 am

Credit Derivatives Determinations Committee will meet at midday UK time on Thursday 19 September to decide if the Chapter 15 bankruptcy filing in the USA has triggered a credit event invoking protection of the credit default swaps. To those who are not involved in finance, this may sounds dry-as-dust, but the outcome of the meeting may have a significant impact on the survival (or not) of Thomas Cook
https://www.cdsdeterminationscommittees ... group-plc/
 
phollingsworth
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:57 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Credit Derivatives Determinations Committee will meet at midday UK time on Thursday 19 September to decide if the Chapter 15 bankruptcy filing in the USA has triggered a credit event invoking protection of the credit default swaps. To those who are not involved in finance, this may sounds dry-as-dust, but the outcome of the meeting may have a significant impact on the survival (or not) of Thomas Cook
https://www.cdsdeterminationscommittees ... group-plc/


That is a big deal. Am I correct in my understanding that if it is deemed to trigger the credit default swaps this is actually a good thing for Thomas Cook as it makes it easier to get the necessary creditor buy-in?
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:03 pm

If the committee decide a credit event has occurred, then the hedge funds holding a substantial amount of the bonds will be likely to vote in favour of the Fosun restructuring and Thomas Cook has a better chance of survival in 2020
 
BealineV953
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Re: Thomas Cook Airlines Selling Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:36 am

FluidFlow wrote:
seahawk wrote:
DL747400 wrote:

For a long long time, I've been curious: Why have "tour & package holiday" companies such as Thomas Cook long occupied a larger segment of the market in Europe than in the USA and elsewhere? Here in the States, their share of the market is tiny by comparison to the UK and Europe.


Security. Book the holidays with a tour operator and everything becomes the tour operator´s risk. If an airline goes bust, the tour operator has to refund you, if the hotel is overbooked, same, and so on.


The European Tourism market grew early really big, especially before the Internet. The need for holidays in the south (Mediterranean etc.) was already big in the late 70s & early 80s, before there actually were LCCs and ULCCs. As there is also, due to the social-democratic protection, a lot of "holiday time" available people wanted to go away, preferably by plane. Driving to holiday is there but not as huge has in the US for example.

This were the best foundations for package holiday companies, and as demand grew this companies built their own resorts and bought their own aircraft to drive prices down, as buying tickets on legacy carriers back then was really expensive.

Now that the generation of holidaymakers changes from package bookers to the generation of digital natives that use new forms of booking, all them companies slowly die.

In the US it was always ok to drive hours if not even days to your destination. Motels are common along the high ways. In Europe this kind of accommodation was never really established and if you didnt had a camper and were not able to reach your target within a 12-16h drive you had to fly.

EDIT: On top of that, there are a lot of natural barriers to cross that made driving a torture: The alps/pyrenees and the channel


Adding to the earlier interesting answers to your question, for the UK I’d give three reasons why the ‘Inclusive Tour’ developed: geography, information and currency exchange restrictions. Of those, ‘information’ is the key reason.

Geography:
Stating the obvious, the UK is separated from Continent by the Channel. There have Cross-channel ferries for many years, but the sea crossing makes driving to Europe more challenging than it might otherwise be. Flying is attractive, but if you fly you then need transport (buses, trains or whatever) at your destination.
The weather in the UK is not reliable. We can have warm sunny summers, but we also have cloudy wet summers. As a result, there was and is much demand for holidays with guaranteed sun.

Information:
In the pre-internet world (I remember it well) it was difficult for potential holiday makers to get information about flights, hotels, trains, buses and the like. Finding out what a hotel was like, how much a room was and whether there was availability would be fun if you phoned the hotel but didn’t speak Spanish, Italian or whatever language was needed.
High Street travel agents had much of the information needed. They referred to books 10cm thick listing flights (the ABC World Airways Guide), train services, hotels and so on. Travel Agents earned their commission by making numerous telephone calls and sending telegrams to check availability and to make bookings. In the late 1960s airlines introduced what would come to be called ‘Global Distribution Systems’. At first these were used within airlines, but later Travel Agents were given access to airline schedule, price and availability information to enable them to make bookings. In time train operators, hotels and others put their information onto GDSs (eg Sabre, Worldspan, Galileo, Amadeus). This greatly reduced the calls between Travel Agents and airlines, hotels and train operators, but it didn’t eliminate the need for Holiday Makers to make bookings through Travel Agents.

To get around these challenges, in the early 1950s the ‘Inclusive Tour’ holiday was created. Tour Operators put together a package that included flights, transfers and accommodation. Holiday makers could book direct with the Tour Operator, or through a Travel Agent who would have to deal with only the Tour Operator. All this was much simpler than having to contact each service provider. It is generally reckoned that in the UK the ‘Horizon’ holiday company pioneered mass package holidays.

In 1954 the Convention on International Civil Aviation was amended to liberalise charter flights to Spain, enabling growth in travel from the UK to Spain.

Exchange rate restrictions:
In July 1966 the UK Government imposed a £50 ‘travel allowance’ limit for British citizens. For travel, UK citizens could exchange only £50 into foreign currency. Back then £50 went a lot further than it does today (£50 then is worth more than £900 today) but it may not have been enough to cover all the costs of a two week family holiday.

When the exchange rate limit was introduced, holiday makers were able to side-step the restriction by paying their Tour Operator in the UK in Sterling.

Development:
UK Tour Operators quickly realised that through vertical integration they could reduce cost and so increase their margins. Many Tour Operators either acquired or set up their own airline. If I remember correctly, Thompson Holidays bought Britannia Airways (formerly Euravia) and Clarksons bought Autair, quickly developing it into Court Line. Monarch was associated with Cosmos through the Globus Group. Intasun set up Air Europe. Dan-Air was not owned by a tour operator, but operated services for many of them.
Through the 1970s and into the 1980s the market grew but there was little significant change. Competition was fierce, margins were thin and economic down-turns led to some Tour Operators going out of business (eg in 1974 Horizon / Clarksons collapsed). Generally speaking UK consumers continued to like the ease of buying an ‘Inclusive Tour’ package in one simple transaction. In the 1980s the long-haul market (eg Florida) developed.
Then, in 1991, the World Wide Web came along. Airlines, train companies, hotels, bus operators and the like came to realise that they could use the internet to get their information directly to the end customer. Holiday makers now had access to the same price and availability information that Travel Agents had. Then the so called ‘aggregators’ appeared (for example eBookers and Expedia) enabling Holiday Makers to see all the information they needed in one place.
UK travelers quickly became comfortable with putting together their own holiday, using the internet to compare airlines and hotels and to book their own flights, transfers and accommodation directly with the providers.

In the UK ‘Inclusive Tour’ remains popular. Some of us are happy to spend hours on the internet doing research and making bookings. Others still want all that done for them. The UK still has ‘Inclusive Tour’ airlines, but the definition is becoming blurred. As well as continuing to sell seats to Tour Operators to be part of a package, typically they now also offer ‘seat only’ direct to the consumer. TUI (formerly Britannia) and Jet2 certainly fall into this group.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
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seahawk
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:11 pm

Another thing to not forget is how comfortable a package holiday is. And if the airline cancels the flight or the hotel is overbooked, you do not have to deal with them, you can deal with the tour operator and if there is a need to go to court about an issue, you can do in your home country. You do not have to fight with the airline or the hotel directly.

And at least here in Germany many smaller tour operators have started to built packages that are a far deal from the typical tour operator in the past. Thomas Cook missed to diversify though and they still mostly do the mass tourism price orientated deals. This also missed to build their own resorts, compared to TUI. And they have nothing to match xTUI, where you can quite freely choose a hotel and flight and still buy it as a package from TUI. Due to the last years on uncertainty for many airlines, I have used that service a lot and I always was happy to have done so. (when air berlin failed, our flight changed 3 times and in the end we flew business on Iberia for the same price as airberlin economy)
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:15 pm

Very good analysis BealineV953!

One slight correction regarding your final sentence. You're right about TUI selling flights on a 'seat-only' basis and at one point they had their own LCC (the original Thomsonfly) alongside Britannia before merging them into Thomsonfly. Jet2 was the other way round, starting off as a LCC before launching Jet2Holidays which arguably now provide a significant amount of passengers for Jet2's flights.

I would also argue that the proliferation of the internet in the 1990's combined with LCC's such as easyJet embracing the internet that contributed towards folk moving away from the traditional package holiday concept and having to go down to the travel agent or doing it over the phone. Since then, we've seen long-established brands go under, as well as consolidation with mergers such as First Choice being taken over by TUI, Travel City Direct being taken over by Virgin Holidays after the XL collapse and, relevant to this thread, Thomas Cook merging with MyTravel. Those brands have had mixed fortunes. The MyTravel brand disappeared along with the airline merging into Thomas Cook Airlines, First Choice Airways was merged into Thomsonfly but the First Choice brand remained and now used for all inclusive holidays, with Travel City Direct being used by Virgin Holidays as a lower cost brand for Florida holidays (a bit like how it was when TCD was part of XL and they had their own branded 747's flying from various UK airports to Orlando Sanford) before it was retired last year.

Package holiday operators still have a future. However, they need to be flexible, keep up with the times and maintain relevance in the marketplace. This is easier said than done for some companies, particularly those that are hamstrung by legacy issues.
 
BealineV953
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Re: Thomas Cook Airlines Selling Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:41 pm

A321200 wrote:
Monarch had very little in the way of assets when Greybull rode into town, all they had going for them was a bunch of 737Max’s on order, perhaps they saw value in that.



After Monarch ceased trading the slots it held at LGW were treated as assets and sold. For UK airports this was unusual; typically where an airline goes out of business its slots are 'returned' to the pool to be reallocated to other airlines. KPMG, Monarch's Administrator, took legal action to secure the right to sell the Monarch's slots at airports including Gatwick, Luton and Manchester. IAG bought the Monarch slots at LGW, primarily to be used by BA.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
eagles94
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:51 pm

From another forum:

Lots of unusual handling requests for early morning arrivals on October 1st at LGW.
HiFly A380 ex BYJ
Titan B752 ex STN
BA Cityflyer E190 ex SEN
Atlas Air B744 ex SNN
Turkish A330 ex IST (with an irregular flight number)
National B752 ex YQX
Grand Cru A320 ex VNO


If true, looks like the CAA has kicked their contingency into action. Of course this doesn’t really mean anything, as they did this for Monarch in 2016 and they got a last minute bailout, rendering the efforts and costs of the CAA(or the taxpayers) redundant.
 
CWL757
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:18 pm

eagles94 wrote:
From another forum:

Lots of unusual handling requests for early morning arrivals on October 1st at LGW.
HiFly A380 ex BYJ
Titan B752 ex STN
BA Cityflyer E190 ex SEN
Atlas Air B744 ex SNN
Turkish A330 ex IST (with an irregular flight number)
National B752 ex YQX
Grand Cru A320 ex VNO


If true, looks like the CAA has kicked their contingency into action. Of course this doesn’t really mean anything, as they did this for Monarch in 2016 and they got a last minute bailout, rendering the efforts and costs of the CAA(or the taxpayers) redundant.

As you mentioned they did this for ZB in 2016 and there was outrage when the public found out. So would the CAA risk that again unless they were 99% sure they weren't going to survive? I wish TCX the absolute best but I must admit I'm starting to fear the worst.
A319, A320, 738, 743, 744, 752, 772, 788, C150, E175, E190, F70, R22
 
CrawleyBen
Posts: 181
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:36 pm

An update from Sky News here in the UK

https://news.sky.com/story/thomas-cook- ... e-11814043

Cheers

Ben
 
eagles94
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:56 pm

Thomas Cook seems to have set up a new company called Parkway Holdco
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/12208064
 
mattyfitzg
Topic Author
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:47 pm

eagles94 wrote:
Thomas Cook seems to have set up a new company called Parkway Holdco
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/12208064


Uh oh, remember this happening when Monarch bit the dust, fingers crossed something gets sorted.
 
Armodeen
Posts: 1265
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:42 pm

As someone due to travel with TCX on a package booking in mid October I am watching with interest. I wish them the best of luck for the coming days and weeks.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:43 am

There is a report that a group of bank creditors, led by RBS and Lloyds, is concerned that Thomas Cook will still have inadequate funds to tide it over during the off-peak season and is threatening to scupper the rescue deal unless an extra £200 million is pumped into the rescue package. Unless this funding is found soon, Thomas Cook's board will have to call in administrators within days, which can be as early as Sunday, as it is a criminal offence to continue trading – and to take holiday bookings – when insolvent.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:07 am

I imagine that Thomas Cook management will probably want to carry on trading until the very last possible minute in the hope of finding a deal. There are a number of critical meetins taking place next week which might offer the possibility of saving the company. It would seem a bit lame for trading to cease on Sunday 22 September before those meetings have happened...
 
sprite86
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Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:08 am

Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:39 am

Looking on the travel weekly site, the CAA has named the repatriation effect as operation Matterhorn, will involve repatriation of 150,000 - 160,000 customers, aircraft are already being flown in to some destinations already (unconfirmed not seen any thing unusual on FR24), the CAA say it may go bust this weekend.

the new plan is to try and sell the Nordic tour business and airline to another operator who has already shown an interest in acquiring that part of the business to raise the £200 million required by the banks. Not sure how FOSUN will take that news are they would be acquiring a much smaller business than proposed for there £450 million investment.

How will JET2 holidays and TUI + other operators cope if TC does fail the huge influx of customers would be very difficult to handle, finding spare aircraft to meet demand etc ?
 
TC957
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:04 pm

Thanks for that info Sprite86. many spare planes are already committed to subbing for the MAX grounding and operating for Norwegian, so it might be interesting to see what they'll bring in. Might be a good spotting weekend !
 
ryan78
Posts: 357
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:24 pm

I wonder how the demise of TCX will impact Air Transat? They signed a lease agreement last year and with the busy Canadian winter season almost upon us the loss of these leases will have a huge impact on their operation. By mid December Transat should have 10 Thomas Cook A321's on lease while in turn sending 4 A332's to TCX over the winter months. It'll be interesting to see this play out though, I hope they can manage to stick around. I can't loose both XL Airways & Thomas Cook in the same week! :(
 
B777LRF
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:31 pm

sprite86 wrote:
Not sure how FOSUN will take that news are they would be acquiring a much smaller business than proposed for their £450 million investment


Since TC Scandinavia has been the only consistently profitable entity in the TCX group, one has a feeling that "not very well" would be the correct answer to that question.

It's a bit like selling someone a shopping mall only to announce at the last minute, that the only stores who pay their rent on time are not included in the deal.
Signature. You just read one.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Thomas Cook Airlines Selling Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:48 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
Exchange rate restrictions:
In July 1966 the UK Government imposed a £50 ‘travel allowance’ limit for British citizens. For travel, UK citizens could exchange only £50 into foreign currency. Back then £50 went a lot further than it does today (£50 then is worth more than £900 today) but it may not have been enough to cover all the costs of a two week family holiday.

When the exchange rate limit was introduced, holiday makers were able to side-step the restriction by paying their Tour Operator in the UK in Sterling.


That's an interesting - and valid - point but the UK lifted currency restrictions in 1979.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:32 pm

sprite86 wrote:
How will JET2 holidays and TUI + other operators cope if TC does fail the huge influx of customers would be very difficult to handle, finding spare aircraft to meet demand etc ?

If their customers are on TC aircraft then this is a big problem but these operators are also big enough to deal with it. Fortunately this isn't a peak period such as July/August so some capacity may be available. You will be surprised at how many carriers are around: last May I was on a TC Sport trip from Stansted to Baku on a chartered Enter Air 737-800 which was based at CDG although it's a Polish airline, all news to me even though I'm reasonably knowledgeable about the aviation business. However, let's be in no doubt that a TC collapse would be by far the biggest in the UK travel market and people abroad won't be brought back home quickly.
 
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AlexA340B777
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:41 pm

I am booked for December on a package holiday of TC daughter Neckermann-Reisen, so that trip would be cancelled in case TC goes bust?

The flights of the tour package are on QR and the tickets are already issued, would the flights still be happening so maybe I just need to rebook a new hotel in addition, or QR would cancel those flights as TC is going bust?

Worrying times...


Thanks for your input,

Alex
6 continents, 85 countries, 746 flights, 90 airlines, 37 aircraft types
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1813
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:38 pm

B777LRF wrote:
sprite86 wrote:
Not sure how FOSUN will take that news are they would be acquiring a much smaller business than proposed for their £450 million investment


Since TC Scandinavia has been the only consistently profitable entity in the TCX group, one has a feeling that "not very well" would be the correct answer to that question.

It's a bit like selling someone a shopping mall only to announce at the last minute, that the only stores who pay their rent on time are not included in the deal.

If TC went bust, where would that leave their subsidiaries? Would TC Scandinavia, Condor be forced to cease as well? What about their hotels, are those independent enough to keep looking after their guests or would travellers find themselves without a flight and a hotel?

IIRC Niki kept flying for three more months after Air Berlin ceased operations. They remained operational until Lufthansa withdrew their acquistion offer.
 
Blueknows
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:59 pm

Looks like some slots soon to open up for B6 Europe plans.
 
phollingsworth
Posts: 759
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:05 am

Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:35 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
Very good analysis BealineV953!

One slight correction regarding your final sentence. You're right about TUI selling flights on a 'seat-only' basis and at one point they had their own LCC (the original Thomsonfly) alongside Britannia before merging them into Thomsonfly. Jet2 was the other way round, starting off as a LCC before launching Jet2Holidays which arguably now provide a significant amount of passengers for Jet2's flights.

I would also argue that the proliferation of the internet in the 1990's combined with LCC's such as easyJet embracing the internet that contributed towards folk moving away from the traditional package holiday concept and having to go down to the travel agent or doing it over the phone. Since then, we've seen long-established brands go under, as well as consolidation with mergers such as First Choice being taken over by TUI, Travel City Direct being taken over by Virgin Holidays after the XL collapse and, relevant to this thread, Thomas Cook merging with MyTravel. Those brands have had mixed fortunes. The MyTravel brand disappeared along with the airline merging into Thomas Cook Airlines, First Choice Airways was merged into Thomsonfly but the First Choice brand remained and now used for all inclusive holidays, with Travel City Direct being used by Virgin Holidays as a lower cost brand for Florida holidays (a bit like how it was when TCD was part of XL and they had their own branded 747's flying from various UK airports to Orlando Sanford) before it was retired last year.

Package holiday operators still have a future. However, they need to be flexible, keep up with the times and maintain relevance in the marketplace. This is easier said than done for some companies, particularly those that are hamstrung by legacy issues.


You tend to find 'package' holidays in weird places these days. If you book a flight on BA or VS's websites and click on 'add a car' or 'add a hotel' these end up as package holidays through their respective holiday arms. I done this a couple of times as it was cheaper for the flights+car than the flights alone. Low an behold once the reservation came through there was the ATOL certificate.
 
Andy33
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Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:03 pm

Blueknows wrote:
Looks like some slots soon to open up for B6 Europe plans.


That really isn't how it works, unless B6 is ready to start transatlantic operations within the next 2 months. Slots in Europe are on a use-it-or-lose it basis. Unless slots are flown on 80% of all dates they are valid for in an IATA season, they are forfeited and returned to the slot coordinators without any payment. The slot coordinators then reallocate them to airlines on a waiting list, who have to be in a position to use them for 80% of the time between allocation and the end of the current IATA season, then following the standard pattern in subsequent seasons.

UK slots are tradeable so B6 could buy them, those that TC group holds for services from other EU member states are not - they'd need to buy the airline to get the slots, which they can't because of foreign ownership rules. But B6 has no way of using the UK slots except on transatlantic flights because it lacks route authorities, and would lose them before a single flight happened due to the 80% rule.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:20 pm

In the UK the CAA have started the wheels moving, it is called "Operation Matterhorn". They are gathering available aircraft seats incase the banks pull the plug on Sunday. Fosun has the funds to top up but seems unwilling. Over 10,000 customers abroad bought flight only tickets and they will not be covered by the CAA resucue if needed. Hope things go well.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
eagles94
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:51 pm

Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:27 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
In the UK the CAA have started the wheels moving, it is called "Operation Matterhorn". They are gathering available aircraft seats incase the banks pull the plug on Sunday. Fosun has the funds to top up but seems unwilling. Over 10,000 customers abroad bought flight only tickets and they will not be covered by the CAA resucue if needed. Hope things go well.


Looks like Gatwick is going to get some very strange carriers coming in and out should Op Matterhorn get initiated. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that.
 
bananaboy
Posts: 1674
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:58 am

Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:54 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
In the UK the CAA have started the wheels moving, it is called "Operation Matterhorn". They are gathering available aircraft seats incase the banks pull the plug on Sunday. Fosun has the funds to top up but seems unwilling. Over 10,000 customers abroad bought flight only tickets and they will not be covered by the CAA resucue if needed. Hope things go well.


After Monarch failed and the CAA repatriated everyone, regardless of whether they were covered or not, I think that they would do the same here.

Makes a mockery of the ATOL protection scheme if those that are getting benefit from it haven't paid in to support it.

Mark
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
Bealine251
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 10:30 am

Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:28 pm

Just returned home after a package holiday to Madeira. It was booked with Thomas Cook and everything in resort was Thomas Cook but the flights where operated by Easy jet. Last year's holiday also booked with Thomas Cook but the flights were flown by Norwegian.
 
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readytotaxi
Posts: 7331
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:29 pm

bananaboy wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
In the UK the CAA have started the wheels moving, it is called "Operation Matterhorn". They are gathering available aircraft seats incase the banks pull the plug on Sunday. Fosun has the funds to top up but seems unwilling. Over 10,000 customers abroad bought flight only tickets and they will not be covered by the CAA resucue if needed. Hope things go well.


After Monarch failed and the CAA repatriated everyone, regardless of whether they were covered or not, I think that they would do the same here.

Makes a mockery of the ATOL protection scheme if those that are getting benefit from it haven't paid in to support it.

Mark

Very much agree, you take out travel insurance to cover your trip unless you are stupid, why should the system have to cover stupid for no extra cost? If they don't learn the lesson they will keep putting their hand in the fire.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7791
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Updated: Thomas Cook Files for U.S. Bankruptcy Protection

Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:33 pm

bananaboy wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
In the UK the CAA have started the wheels moving, it is called "Operation Matterhorn". They are gathering available aircraft seats incase the banks pull the plug on Sunday. Fosun has the funds to top up but seems unwilling. Over 10,000 customers abroad bought flight only tickets and they will not be covered by the CAA resucue if needed. Hope things go well.


After Monarch failed and the CAA repatriated everyone, regardless of whether they were covered or not, I think that they would do the same here.

Makes a mockery of the ATOL protection scheme if those that are getting benefit from it haven't paid in to support it.

Mark


It also makes a mockery of capitalism and deregulated markets if you're not going to let carriers fail. Maybe they've had some bad luck but if public funds (or government arm-twisting to inject private funds) are used to sustain them it just weakens the stronger carriers. What's the argument that Thomas Cook provides essential competition when a dozen other EU carriers have unrestricted flight rights?
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