flyjay123
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:53 am

Appologies if this has already been discussed

Is H3 (Thomas Cook aviation Germany) still operating - what's its future prospects? Also curious what its genealogy/history is?
 
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Finn350
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:40 am

Phosphorus wrote:
WingsOfLove wrote:
jomur wrote:
The Official Receiver has control of all of TC slots


and her / his duty is to sell it to whoever offers the most, unless the competition authorities object


All very good and dandy. However. The Official Receiver either
1) has no operational airline credentials, and then has no right to slots
2) has operational airline credentials, may hold on to slots, but THEN is liable to perform contracted (and often prepaid) transportation services as a common carrier, no?

You cannot have it both ways, the "Schrödinger's cat box" was opened, and the cat is either dead or alive.

Of course, both Official Receiver and ACL like to pretend the box is still closed -- because if ACL pronounces the cat to be dead, and the slots to be back into the general pool, up for grabs -- creditors of TC are stiffed, and some of them may take the issue in courts. And if Official Receiver says that the cat is alive -- why all the fuss with TCA being grounded, and evacuation flights are in full swing?


There is no way for TC to continue operations, as the planes would be impounded at the airports due to non-payment of leases, airport charges, fuel etc. TC cannot start paying those, as it would be preferential treatment of creditors.
 
User001
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:56 am

Virgin are going after the Manchester slots:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... cook-slots

And as a sign of how serious they are, they say that should they get them, they will use Delta to grab the slots owing to the fact VS don’t have much spare capacity to be able to throw aircraft at MAN. That’s more detail than they have given re:LGW.
 
jomur
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:24 am

User001 wrote:
Virgin are going after the Manchester slots:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... cook-slots

And as a sign of how serious they are, they say that should they get them, they will use Delta to grab the slots owing to the fact VS don’t have much spare capacity to be able to throw aircraft at MAN. That’s more detail than they have given re:LGW.


VS might have a surprise on thier hands as someone else has plans for them and will give them a run for their money.. Just saying....
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:29 am

Finn350 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
WingsOfLove wrote:

and her / his duty is to sell it to whoever offers the most, unless the competition authorities object


All very good and dandy. However. The Official Receiver either
1) has no operational airline credentials, and then has no right to slots
2) has operational airline credentials, may hold on to slots, but THEN is liable to perform contracted (and often prepaid) transportation services as a common carrier, no?

You cannot have it both ways, the "Schrödinger's cat box" was opened, and the cat is either dead or alive.

Of course, both Official Receiver and ACL like to pretend the box is still closed -- because if ACL pronounces the cat to be dead, and the slots to be back into the general pool, up for grabs -- creditors of TC are stiffed, and some of them may take the issue in courts. And if Official Receiver says that the cat is alive -- why all the fuss with TCA being grounded, and evacuation flights are in full swing?


There is no way for TC to continue operations, as the planes would be impounded at the airports due to non-payment of leases, airport charges, fuel etc. TC cannot start paying those, as it would be preferential treatment of creditors.


The part of "no way for TC to continue operations" is actually clear.
Now, the concept of a "slot" as a tradeable good is, unless I am fundamentally wrong, intrinsically linked to an ability to actually use it. You don't have a bank or a leasing company or a hedge fund, directly owning a bunch of slots, sitting on them, and using or not using them, as they see fit. To own a slot, it looks like you have to be an actual airline, with all paperwork in order, alive and kicking. Besides, a slot ownership appears, among other things, to be a perishable commodity -- even you are a living, breathing, flying airline, but not not using this particular slot for a while (or underusing it), the ownership right is null and void.

Now, you have "slot ownership" by an entity that has "no way for TC to continue operations" stamped over it.
In saner world, the slot portfolio would be thus found to be without a qualified owner (a liquidator who shut down the airline, and does not intend to fly it, obviously isn't one). Apparently, no-one dares to do this, as liquidators and creditors are obviously expected to go ballistic. So, the "grey area" of "TC is no longer an airline enough to actually fly, but still an airline enough to be in legitimate possession of its airport slot portfolio" is maintained for a while.
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Boeing74741R
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:45 am

User001 wrote:
Virgin are going after the Manchester slots:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... cook-slots

And as a sign of how serious they are, they say that should they get them, they will use Delta to grab the slots owing to the fact VS don’t have much spare capacity to be able to throw aircraft at MAN. That’s more detail than they have given re:LGW.


Also confirms the worst kept secret of a Clubhouse opening next Spring as part of the TP works. Both are statements of intent. Using DL to operate flights makes sense as I was struggling to work out how VS could operate extra flights next year without taking on new planes (which would need to be done quickly and refitted over winter) or postponing planned A340/747 withdrawals.
 
Andy33
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:04 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Now, you have "slot ownership" by an entity that has "no way for TC to continue operations" stamped over it.
In saner world, the slot portfolio would be thus found to be without a qualified owner (a liquidator who shut down the airline, and does not intend to fly it, obviously isn't one). Apparently, no-one dares to do this, as liquidators and creditors are obviously expected to go ballistic. So, the "grey area" of "TC is no longer an airline enough to actually fly, but still an airline enough to be in legitimate possession of its airport slot portfolio" is maintained for a while.


Your logic is perfectly clear, but there was an actual court case over this only 2 years ago, involving what happened to Monarch's slots. The court ruled that the slots could be traded even though the airline they were allocated to was bankrupt and not flying. However, there is an 80% usage rule - if a slot is not used for 80% or more of the days for which it is valid, it is forfeited and up for reallocation. As slots are allocated separately for summer and winter IATA seasons, Thomas Cook will have operated enough summer season flights to keep those slots open to be sold for next years flights, and the winter ones don't even start until the last weekend in October, in all probability they will have been sold by then.

Do I think this is the right way to go? No.but it will take legislation to alter it. Note that this is absolutely nothing to do with the EU - in fact the UK is the only country in Europe where slots can be sold separately from the airline that they are allocated to.
 
WingsOfLove
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:45 pm

flyjay123 wrote:
Is H3 (Thomas Cook aviation Germany) still operating - what's its future prospects? Also curious what its genealogy/history is?


H3 & H5 are operating as CFG with 'owner unknown' :D
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:57 pm

Andy33 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Now, you have "slot ownership" by an entity that has "no way for TC to continue operations" stamped over it.
In saner world, the slot portfolio would be thus found to be without a qualified owner (a liquidator who shut down the airline, and does not intend to fly it, obviously isn't one). Apparently, no-one dares to do this, as liquidators and creditors are obviously expected to go ballistic. So, the "grey area" of "TC is no longer an airline enough to actually fly, but still an airline enough to be in legitimate possession of its airport slot portfolio" is maintained for a while.


Your logic is perfectly clear, but there was an actual court case over this only 2 years ago, involving what happened to Monarch's slots. The court ruled that the slots could be traded even though the airline they were allocated to was bankrupt and not flying. However, there is an 80% usage rule - if a slot is not used for 80% or more of the days for which it is valid, it is forfeited and up for reallocation. As slots are allocated separately for summer and winter IATA seasons, Thomas Cook will have operated enough summer season flights to keep those slots open to be sold for next years flights, and the winter ones don't even start until the last weekend in October, in all probability they will have been sold by then.

Do I think this is the right way to go? No.but it will take legislation to alter it. Note that this is absolutely nothing to do with the EU - in fact the UK is the only country in Europe where slots can be sold separately from the airline that they are allocated to.


Thanks for clearing this up, I appreciate your effort to enlighten (me, for sure; broader audience -- too).
So, this is curiouser and curiouser, but I guess it makes perfect sense in bankruptcy as "momentary photo" and sell-off of everything, captured in that photo, process.

And yes, I appreciate these are particular UK rules and processes. No "evil Eurocrats from Brussels" setting up this maze -- only centuries of HM Red Tape and court precedents, and decades of "Turbo-capitalism, Anglo-Saxon style".
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TC957
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:50 pm

VS could I guess get the three newest MT A332's G-TCXB/C/D for expanding MAN operations as these aircraft are newer than the ex-AB 332's they obtained. Refitting them shouldn't take more than a few weeks. But it would also be nice if they kept the A346's on longer than planned at LHR to release a few A333's from there to MAN. Time will tell how serious VS are at building up MAN.
 
User001
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:09 pm

TC957 wrote:
VS could I guess get the three newest MT A332's G-TCXB/C/D for expanding MAN operations as these aircraft are newer than the ex-AB 332's they obtained. Refitting them shouldn't take more than a few weeks. But it would also be nice if they kept the A346's on longer than planned at LHR to release a few A333's from there to MAN. Time will tell how serious VS are at building up MAN.


They have already announced extra flights and capacity for Manchester this winter so seems they are serious.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:07 pm

jomur wrote:
User001 wrote:
Virgin are going after the Manchester slots:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... cook-slots

And as a sign of how serious they are, they say that should they get them, they will use Delta to grab the slots owing to the fact VS don’t have much spare capacity to be able to throw aircraft at MAN. That’s more detail than they have given re:LGW.


VS might have a surprise on thier hands as someone else has plans for them and will give them a run for their money.. Just saying....


Interesting...
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:09 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
User001 wrote:
Virgin are going after the Manchester slots:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... cook-slots

And as a sign of how serious they are, they say that should they get them, they will use Delta to grab the slots owing to the fact VS don’t have much spare capacity to be able to throw aircraft at MAN. That’s more detail than they have given re:LGW.


Also confirms the worst kept secret of a Clubhouse opening next Spring as part of the TP works. Both are statements of intent. Using DL to operate flights makes sense as I was struggling to work out how VS could operate extra flights next year without taking on new planes (which would need to be done quickly and refitted over winter) or postponing planned A340/747 withdrawals.


I believe the clubhouse is to have a spa - which was unexpected.

Looks like they have added capacity to New York and Bridgetown this winter, with plans to announce additional capacity to Orlando shortly as well.

There were comments about new services and destinations in the near future, so it sounds like there is a fair bit going on at VS/DL at this moment in time.
 
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seemyseems
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:13 pm

jomur wrote:
User001 wrote:
Virgin are going after the Manchester slots:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... cook-slots

And as a sign of how serious they are, they say that should they get them, they will use Delta to grab the slots owing to the fact VS don’t have much spare capacity to be able to throw aircraft at MAN. That’s more detail than they have given re:LGW.


VS might have a surprise on thier hands as someone else has plans for them and will give them a run for their money.. Just saying....


Care to elaborate?
seemyseems in ATL
 
jomur
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:31 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
User001 wrote:
Virgin are going after the Manchester slots:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... cook-slots

And as a sign of how serious they are, they say that should they get them, they will use Delta to grab the slots owing to the fact VS don’t have much spare capacity to be able to throw aircraft at MAN. That’s more detail than they have given re:LGW.


Also confirms the worst kept secret of a Clubhouse opening next Spring as part of the TP works. Both are statements of intent. Using DL to operate flights makes sense as I was struggling to work out how VS could operate extra flights next year without taking on new planes (which would need to be done quickly and refitted over winter) or postponing planned A340/747 withdrawals.


I believe the clubhouse is to have a spa - which was unexpected.

Looks like they have added capacity to New York and Bridgetown this winter, with plans to announce additional capacity to Orlando shortly as well.

There were comments about new services and destinations in the near future, so it sounds like there is a fair bit going on at VS/DL at this moment in time.



Orlando flights on VS are quite often half full during the quieter winter months hence why the merge the 2 daily flights to one. So until they have consistently full flights there won't be the demand for extra flights.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:01 pm

Back on track, ex TC staff had a meeting today at MAN for help on how to claim monies owed to them and other help.
Many are a really desperate place in their lives.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-498 ... s-49855348
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
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bennett123
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:07 pm

I thought that staff wages were priority creditors.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:09 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Back on track, ex TC staff had a meeting today at MAN for help on how to claim monies owed to them and other help.
Many are a really desperate place in their lives.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-498 ... s-49855348


Link wasn't working.
I suspect many staff live 'paycheck to paycheck' with little or no financial reserves, have families to support, pay high costs of living, and with Brexit with its affects soon on the Pound and jobs available, many need all the income they can get.
 
User001
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:20 pm

jomur wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:

Also confirms the worst kept secret of a Clubhouse opening next Spring as part of the TP works. Both are statements of intent. Using DL to operate flights makes sense as I was struggling to work out how VS could operate extra flights next year without taking on new planes (which would need to be done quickly and refitted over winter) or postponing planned A340/747 withdrawals.


I believe the clubhouse is to have a spa - which was unexpected.

Looks like they have added capacity to New York and Bridgetown this winter, with plans to announce additional capacity to Orlando shortly as well.

There were comments about new services and destinations in the near future, so it sounds like there is a fair bit going on at VS/DL at this moment in time.



Orlando flights on VS are quite often half full during the quieter winter months hence why the merge the 2 daily flights to one. So until they have consistently full flights there won't be the demand for extra flights.


Virgin gave confirmed that they will run extra flights so they clearly think there is demand
 
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OA260
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:32 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Back on track, ex TC staff had a meeting today at MAN for help on how to claim monies owed to them and other help.
Many are a really desperate place in their lives.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-498 ... s-49855348


They could arrest Fankhauser and seize his mansion in Surrey then sell and put money towards paying the staff. Sadly that will not happen but in an ideal world etc...

I see Debus had to apologise for a video posted on Condor showing staff celebrating and clapping managers. Not quite appropriate when their “Colleagues” are on their knees .
 
CWL757
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:43 pm

G-TCDA is due to leave LGW at some point in the next few hours for Montepellier.
A319, A320, 738, 743, 744, 752, 772, 788, C150, E175, E190, F70, R22
 
flyjay123
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:57 pm

They could arrest Fankhauser and seize his mansion in Surrey then sell and put money towards paying the staff.[/quote]

Wishfull thinking, that beautiful mansion around the corner from me, currently with securiry guard.... is rented!

Doesnt he reside now in Israel ?
Last edited by flyjay123 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:58 pm

ltbewr wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
Back on track, ex TC staff had a meeting today at MAN for help on how to claim monies owed to them and other help.
Many are a really desperate place in their lives.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-498 ... s-49855348


Link wasn't working.
I suspect many staff live 'paycheck to paycheck' with little or no financial reserves, have families to support, pay high costs of living, and with Brexit with its affects soon on the Pound and jobs available, many need all the income they can get.

new link
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49855348
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vandoc
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:37 pm

flyjay123 wrote:
Appologies if this has already been discussed

Is H3 (Thomas Cook aviation Germany) still operating - what's its future prospects? Also curious what its genealogy/history is?


H3 is still operating and was acquired by Condor during the liquidation of airberlin. H3 was founded as airberlin aeronautics with the purpose to be a wetlease operator for AB. Later it was renamed as airberlin aviation before it was sold to Condor.
 
WingsOfLove
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:26 pm

Brussels Airlines cancels 105 flights for October that relied heavily on Thomas Cook bookings

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... tinations/

Belgium's Travel Guarantee Fund will reimburse those who booked TC holiday packages
 
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GCT64
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:02 pm

CWL757 wrote:
G-TCDA is due to leave LGW at some point in the next few hours for Montepellier.


Another A321, OY-TCI, left TRD yesterday for Toulouse Francazal.

I would expect to see a lot more leave for storage / lessors soon.
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:11 pm

    GCT64 wrote:
    CWL757 wrote:
    G-TCDA is due to leave LGW at some point in the next few hours for Montepellier.


    Another A321, OY-TCI, left TRD yesterday for Toulouse Francazal.

    I would expect to see a lot more leave for storage / lessors soon.


    One of the three A321's at GLA was transponding yesterday briefly, alleged to be being prepped for departure next week. The A330 there was moved to a Northside remote space in order to let Hifly's A380 park on stand 37. I'm advised by an airfield ops manager, the three A321's will depart in the coming days.
     
    bennett123
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    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:16 pm

    G-TCDA now landed in Montpellier.
     
    Stickpusher
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    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:55 pm

    It was a bit sad yesterday to see a TCX A321 head over into Bristol. I checked on FR24 and it was one of the leased-in aircraft from Avion/Smartlynx/whoever now operating repatriation flights for Titan. It was a puzzler for a few minutes, though.

    Off topic, while checking FR24 I also noticed a red symbol for Loganair E145 G-RJXH - ABZ-SEN - which circled weirdly over the south midlands before heading rather crookedly for EMA, where it landed apparently with a medevac helicopter in close attendance. No news on what that diversion was for, or which emergency squawk it was. The a/c hasn't moved since then, at least according to FR24. Sorry, digressing...
     
    Sunbao
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    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:05 pm

    GCT64 wrote:
    CWL757 wrote:
    G-TCDA is due to leave LGW at some point in the next few hours for Montepellier.


    Another A321, OY-TCI, left TRD yesterday for Toulouse Francazal.

    I would expect to see a lot more leave for storage / lessors soon.

    Yeah, Thomas Cook Airlines Scandinavia, seems to be en the market for a new/used 321 to replace it.
    But well could be worse, only lost one plane it seems. The 332 in JFK should head back to Denmark tonight.
     
    Cafe5150
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    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:21 pm

    Aigle Azur gone as well.
     
    BOAC1966
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    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:24 pm

    CAA has done rather well with Operation Matterhorn! Well done. Very polished performance and typically well executed ....yes we do get a few things right in the UK!
     
    bennett123
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    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:07 pm

    2 A321 parked at BRS, (G-TCVC and G-TCDB).

    Also seen yesterday (Saturday) at BRS were B737 I-NEOW and A330 EC-MII which were probably doing repatriation flights.
     
    bananaboy
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    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:39 am

    BOAC1966 wrote:
    CAA has done rather well with Operation Matterhorn! Well done. Very polished performance and typically well executed ....yes we do get a few things right in the UK!


    Agreed re the repatriation..have been on CAA calls every day this week and they've reported that at least 95% of customers have flown back on the day they were originally scheduled to.

    I think they could have done better regarding some of their other obligations but that is outside the scope of this thread.

    Mark
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    NG263
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    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:23 am

    Just this morning there is an article in the German newspaper FAZ concerning Condor's financial results. Unfortunately this is only in the printed version, I did not find it online so far.

    EBIT of the last 10 years (operational profit):

    2008: €57m
    2009: €55m
    2010: €61m
    2011: €68m
    2012: €45m
    2013: €57m
    2014: €62m
    2015: €67m
    2016: -€17m (only year with a loss in the last 10 years, connected to the Turkey Crisis)
    2017: €10m
    2018: €43m


    Does anyone have some figures for TC Airlines UK & Scandinavia? Would like to see how this would compare.
     
    oschkosch
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    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:10 am

    NG263 wrote:
    Just this morning there is an article in the German newspaper FAZ concerning Condor's financial results. Unfortunately this is only in the printed version, I did not find it online so far.

    EBIT of the last 10 years (operational profit):

    2008: €57m
    2009: €55m
    2010: €61m
    2011: €68m
    2012: €45m
    2013: €57m
    2014: €62m
    2015: €67m
    2016: -€17m (only year with a loss in the last 10 years, connected to the Turkey Crisis)
    2017: €10m
    2018: €43m


    Does anyone have some figures for TC Airlines UK & Scandinavia? Would like to see how this would compare.
    Wow, so a company with what? 1,6 - 1,8 Billion Euro turnover had so little profit yet everywhere in media it is called "highly profitable"?

    Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
     
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    DrPaul
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    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:42 am

    As I write there is a Malaysian Airlines A380, 9M-MNF, northbound over the Midlands on a Palma da Mallorca to Manchester flight. Presumably this is a Thomas Cook emergency return trip.
     
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    CarbonFibre
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    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:53 am

    JannEejit wrote:

    One of the three A321's at GLA was transponding yesterday briefly, alleged to be being prepped for departure next week. The A330 there was moved to a Northside remote space in order to let Hifly's A380 park on stand 37. I'm advised by an airfield ops manager, the three A321's will depart in the coming days.


    The three A321s are parked by the control tower and blocked in by a snow plough!
     
    Sunbao
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    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:37 pm

    NG263 wrote:
    Just this morning there is an article in the German newspaper FAZ concerning Condor's financial results. Unfortunately this is only in the printed version, I did not find it online so far.

    EBIT of the last 10 years (operational profit):

    2008: €57m
    2009: €55m
    2010: €61m
    2011: €68m
    2012: €45m
    2013: €57m
    2014: €62m
    2015: €67m
    2016: -€17m (only year with a loss in the last 10 years, connected to the Turkey Crisis)
    2017: €10m
    2018: €43m


    Does anyone have some figures for TC Airlines UK & Scandinavia? Would like to see how this would compare.



    Well the scandinavia Airline had 536 mill sales in 2017 With a profit of 27. 5 mill euro and in 2018 539 mill sales With 29.8 mill profit.
     
    max999
    Posts: 1138
    Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:42 pm

    Sunbao wrote:
    NG263 wrote:
    Just this morning there is an article in the German newspaper FAZ concerning Condor's financial results. Unfortunately this is only in the printed version, I did not find it online so far.

    EBIT of the last 10 years (operational profit):

    2008: €57m
    2009: €55m
    2010: €61m
    2011: €68m
    2012: €45m
    2013: €57m
    2014: €62m
    2015: €67m
    2016: -€17m (only year with a loss in the last 10 years, connected to the Turkey Crisis)
    2017: €10m
    2018: €43m


    Does anyone have some figures for TC Airlines UK & Scandinavia? Would like to see how this would compare.



    Well the scandinavia Airline had 536 mill sales in 2017 With a profit of 27. 5 mill euro and in 2018 539 mill sales With 29.8 mill profit.


    https://amp.scmp.com/comment/opinion/ar ... homas-cook

    This editorial blames the failure on Thomas Cook's inability to digitize its business.

    While the airlines were profitable, the rest of the company dragged it down.
    All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
     
    Andy33
    Posts: 2498
    Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:16 pm

    I don't really see how anyone can say whether the airlines were truly profitable or not, since it all depends what internal credits were made for seats occupied by customers of the package holiday divisions, and what was charged back to the airline divisions by way of group overhead for shared services. Indeed if the package holiday divsions and the retail agencies hadn't channeled customers to the airlines they'd be unlikely to have survived as long as they did..

    The overall performance of the group is audited annually and can presumably be proved accurate, but the individual subsidiaries were subject to whatever intra-group trading policies applied. Now this may have been different for Condor since there were other shareholders, so had they challenged the figures it would have been necessary to justify the internal costs/receipts, but Condor was less of a supplier to the rest of the group and more of a free standing airline. Whether it is viable without the package holiday customers remains to be seen.
     
    WingsOfLove
    Posts: 218
    Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:54 am

    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:37 pm

    Andy33 wrote:
    it all depends what internal credits were made for seats occupied by customers of the package holiday divisions, and what was charged back to the airline divisions by way of group overhead for shared services


    Generally agree, it's just that TCG plc was trying to sell the airlines only in February and any potential buyer, that's exactly what they're auditing.
     
    artflyer
    Posts: 39
    Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:08 pm

    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:40 pm

    Andy33 wrote:
    Phosphorus wrote:
    Now, you have "slot ownership" by an entity that has "no way for TC to continue operations" stamped over it.
    In saner world, the slot portfolio would be thus found to be without a qualified owner (a liquidator who shut down the airline, and does not intend to fly it, obviously isn't one). Apparently, no-one dares to do this, as liquidators and creditors are obviously expected to go ballistic. So, the "grey area" of "TC is no longer an airline enough to actually fly, but still an airline enough to be in legitimate possession of its airport slot portfolio" is maintained for a while.


    Your logic is perfectly clear, but there was an actual court case over this only 2 years ago, involving what happened to Monarch's slots. The court ruled that the slots could be traded even though the airline they were allocated to was bankrupt and not flying. However, there is an 80% usage rule - if a slot is not used for 80% or more of the days for which it is valid, it is forfeited and up for reallocation. As slots are allocated separately for summer and winter IATA seasons, Thomas Cook will have operated enough summer season flights to keep those slots open to be sold for next years flights, and the winter ones don't even start until the last weekend in October, in all probability they will have been sold by then.

    Do I think this is the right way to go? No.but it will take legislation to alter it. Note that this is absolutely nothing to do with the EU - in fact the UK is the only country in Europe where slots can be sold separately from the airline that they are allocated to.


    Certainly UK is not the only country in Europe where it goes that way as it goes the same way in Poland. A couple of years ago LO bought a number of slots in WAW from a charter operator going into insolvency.
     
    Andy33
    Posts: 2498
    Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:57 pm

    WingsOfLove wrote:
    Andy33 wrote:
    it all depends what internal credits were made for seats occupied by customers of the package holiday divisions, and what was charged back to the airline divisions by way of group overhead for shared services


    Generally agree, it's just that TCG plc was trying to sell the airlines only in February and any potential buyer, that's exactly what they're auditing.


    And look how successful that attempted sale was!
     
    User001
    Posts: 944
    Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:18 pm

    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:19 pm

    random question.

    When airlines go insolvent, and aircraft impounded, the aircraft are usually blocked in by some form of airport equipment. In the case of 1 Thomas Cook A330 at MAN, it’s ‘blocked in’ by a small mobile generator that frankly the A330 could be manouvered over the top of if they wanted to.

    So, my question, what’s the point?

    In the case of that particular A330, that generator will stop no one should they want to ‘unlawfully’ take the aircraft back. And in the case of most block ins, surely if you can move a 100 odd tonne aircraft, you can move a 10 tonne or so van or tractor should you be desperate enough to try and take back an aircraft. Let’s not even go into the fact airside should be a secure area where’s people entering have to state their business and have a legitimate need to be there so you could stop any take back at the security gate?

    In essence, is it just ‘theatre’ to give an impounded aircraft more visual impact?
     
    User avatar
    aemoreira1981
    Posts: 2935
    Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:21 pm

    TC957 wrote:
    VS could I guess get the three newest MT A332's G-TCXB/C/D for expanding MAN operations as these aircraft are newer than the ex-AB 332's they obtained. Refitting them shouldn't take more than a few weeks. But it would also be nice if they kept the A346's on longer than planned at LHR to release a few A333's from there to MAN. Time will tell how serious VS are at building up MAN.


    I could see that happening. Then there is the issue of sourcing one additional A330-243, maybe from Air Europa as that fleet draws down?. Engine-wise, those ex-AB A332s are oddballs (P&W frames where the rest of the Airbus fleet and B789 fleet are all Rolls Royce).

    User001 wrote:
    random question.

    When airlines go insolvent, and aircraft impounded, the aircraft are usually blocked in by some form of airport equipment. In the case of 1 Thomas Cook A330 at MAN, it’s ‘blocked in’ by a small mobile generator that frankly the A330 could be manouvered over the top of if they wanted to.

    So, my question, what’s the point?

    In the case of that particular A330, that generator will stop no one should they want to ‘unlawfully’ take the aircraft back. And in the case of most block ins, surely if you can move a 100 odd tonne aircraft, you can move a 10 tonne or so van or tractor should you be desperate enough to try and take back an aircraft. Let’s not even go into the fact airside should be a secure area where’s people entering have to state their business and have a legitimate need to be there so you could stop any take back at the security gate?

    In essence, is it just ‘theatre’ to give an impounded aircraft more visual impact?


    There is also OY-VKF impounded at JFK, on the DHL ramp, which is in a remote area.
    Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
     
    WingsOfLove
    Posts: 218
    Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:54 am

    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:32 pm

    Andy33 wrote:
    And look how successful that attempted sale was!


    Didn't TCG plc withdraw, because Fosun made an offer for the whole company?
     
    LJ
    Posts: 4877
    Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:04 pm

    Andy33 wrote:
    I don't really see how anyone can say whether the airlines were truly profitable or not, since it all depends what internal credits were made for seats occupied by customers of the package holiday divisions, and what was charged back to the airline divisions by way of group overhead for shared services. Indeed if the package holiday divsions and the retail agencies hadn't channeled customers to the airlines they'd be unlikely to have survived as long as they did..


    The package tour business accounted fot 20% of Condors business only. As such we can say that Condor was/is profitable. The situation for the UK airline is different as they had a bigger dependancy on the package tour business of Thomas Cook.

    Andy33 wrote:
    The overall performance of the group is audited annually and can presumably be proved accurate, but the individual subsidiaries were subject to whatever intra-group trading policies applied. Now this may have been different for Condor since there were other shareholders, so had they challenged the figures it would have been necessary to justify the internal costs/receipts, but Condor was less of a supplier to the rest of the group and more of a free standing airline. Whether it is viable without the package holiday customers remains to be seen.


    Subsidiaries are audited as well for tax reasons (at least the foreign ones). Though moving profits and losses is possible, there are limits to what one can do or else the tax authorities come in. Moreover, the Thomas Cook PLC annual account should contain details on its subsidiaries perfomance (in the annual disclosure). In addition, it must make public how it calculated those figures. These are audited as well if you're listed on an exchange. Non compliance is an offense. Note that during a sale of the airline(s) Thomas Cook would need to show to any potential buyer the dependancy on the package tour business.
     
    User avatar
    Phosphorus
    Posts: 636
    Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:44 pm

    User001 wrote:
    random question.

    When airlines go insolvent, and aircraft impounded, the aircraft are usually blocked in by some form of airport equipment. In the case of 1 Thomas Cook A330 at MAN, it’s ‘blocked in’ by a small mobile generator that frankly the A330 could be manouvered over the top of if they wanted to.

    So, my question, what’s the point?

    In the case of that particular A330, that generator will stop no one should they want to ‘unlawfully’ take the aircraft back. And in the case of most block ins, surely if you can move a 100 odd tonne aircraft, you can move a 10 tonne or so van or tractor should you be desperate enough to try and take back an aircraft. Let’s not even go into the fact airside should be a secure area where’s people entering have to state their business and have a legitimate need to be there so you could stop any take back at the security gate?

    In essence, is it just ‘theatre’ to give an impounded aircraft more visual impact?


    It's actually fairly common sense.
    Imagine -- you believe you are a rightful owner of said A330, and you have some paperwork you believe proves it (court order from another jurisdiction, or repossession notice from a leasing company -- something).
    On the other hand, airport authority is not as confident, who is the rightful owner, but is very confident that the previous owner/operator of this A330 owes the airport, fueling companies, ATC, and a bunch of other folks a lot of money.
    You climb aboard the aircraft, staple the repossession notice, and proclaim yourself a rightful owner.
    So far, maybe you have not broken any laws.
    Your entourage of pilots and mechanics inspect the aircraft, and proclaim it airworthy, fueled, good to go.
    You start up the engines. Maybe it's still legal. Even if somebody is unhappy -- their claims are civil, property-related, and it's a question -- in what jurisdiction are they to be debated (Cape Town treaty, all that).
    By now, the airport authority is clearly alerted, and is an interested observer -- via CCTV, or even with an employee onsite, observing. Maybe even airport police have arrived on the scene, and are beaming with curiosity.

    Now, there is a piece of airport-owned equipment -- a snowplow, for example, that boxes you in. You cannot taxi without moving it.
    Snowplow is a property of an airport authority, needs a special license to be driven in principle, and needs a clearance from owner/operator to be started up and to start moving, in particular (it's an airport-specific equipment on airport property. People don't drive snowplows within airport perimeter without airport authority agreeing to it).
    The moment you try to do something to the snowplow -- tow it, start it up, maybe even climb into the driver seat -- you have broken some regulations, and maybe some laws. The legal machinery springs into action -- and this action will stop you from taking the airplane, until you've paid. In the process, some of your merry troop may be detained, arrested, charged, etc. -- those are details; very important to people in question. But the main idea is simple -- the snowplow is there, so you cannot just take that airplane without breaking some laws and/or regulations, that place you in the welcoming hands of the law, delivered to you by the airport authority -- that you tried to avoid paying to...
    AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
    Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
     
    ei146
    Posts: 267
    Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

    Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

    Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:06 pm

    Phosphorus wrote:
    ...

    What you describe I know as "Nötigung" (coercion). Under German law (and probably many others) this is a crime. Just imagine your neighbour wants his broken window paid, that your kids broke playing ball. Now to make you pay faster he blocks your garage with his own car.
    The only way the aiports can legally block an aircraft is if they have some legal paperwork themselfs.
    Things become interesting if there are contradicting documents from both sides...

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