The government should not bail out a private company. You can't have a system where profits go to shareholders during good times and losses are picked up by taxpayers when everything hits the fan.

If it can't rescue itself, it should be allowed to fail.

Elshad wrote:

The government should not bail out a private company. You can't have a system where profits go to shareholders during good times and losses are picked up by taxpayers when everything hits the fan.

If it can't rescue itself, it should be allowed to fail.

Talking about the company as a viable concern or the thousands of Brits who get stranded in foreign countries bombarding the embassies of their government along with family at home getting their MP's involved to bring them back home?
Hopefully they could get a refund with little to no penalty if the government brings them home if heaven forbid, worst case happens.

flyjay123 wrote:

f4f3a wrote:

I wonder whether it’s cheaper to let them go bust then people will buy which bits they want and leave the rest . Can some profitable companies rise out of the ashes ?
I think the chance of a government bail out loan is a long shot . They didn’t bail out The steel makers which was much more politically sensitive . However with an election likely in the not to distant future might be a cheap political win

If TC fails, sadly the biggest loser is the British tax payer to the sum of 600 million rescue costs + thousands of people unemployed and huge disruption to the travelling public!

However, Fosun will probably end up grabbing what its want off the administrators for far less than they are offering to inject today. And run a slimmed down more efficiant TC mark 2 tour operation. Win Win.

The Nordic operation is contributing profit so will continue as usual. Win win.

Lufthansa will probably jump on a Condor bargain. Win win.

A significant amount of the slimned down tour operation flying programme could potentially be taken over by LCC's, especially in the short term as we go into the quieter winter season. Win win for them.

The Thomas Cook brand will contiue on.... in ny opinion!

If that would be the case, what happens to holiday packages already booked, would they still be continued as planned or cancelled?

if its a pre packaged administration then FOSUN or who ever will just carry on as it is now current / future bookings would be secure, but FOSUN cannot own more than 49% of the airline so they will have to do a deal where they own a minority share with another party or put all the customers on jet2/ryan air / easy jet etc not a easy task and a huge headacre trying to get passengers to destination.

looks like FOSUN will buy the tour op's from the administrator and I'm hoping the banks keep the airline running as it is profitable

So I might be lucky as flights of my package holiday are on Qatar Airways, so TC just dealing with the hotel I suppose...

AlexA340B777 wrote:

So I might be lucky as flights of my package holiday are on Qatar Airways, so TC just dealing with the hotel I suppose...

As long as you have tickets issued you should be ok. You would need to call hotel direct and see if they have been paid. The issues arise if you have paid the company in this case being Thomas Cook and they have not paid the suppliers.

OA260 wrote:

AlexA340B777 wrote:

So I might be lucky as flights of my package holiday are on Qatar Airways, so TC just dealing with the hotel I suppose...

As long as you have tickets issued you should be ok. You would need to call hotel direct and see if they have been paid. The issues arise if you have paid the company in this case being Thomas Cook and they have not paid the suppliers.

Tickets are issued already, so those I could keep anyways? (worst case I maybe just would need to rebook a hotel by myself and keep the flight tickets).

So far, I have only paid the downpayment to TC... final balance due at the beginning of November, trip is in December...
So, the best would be to just wait and see how it goes?

AlexA340B777 wrote:

OA260 wrote:

AlexA340B777 wrote:

So I might be lucky as flights of my package holiday are on Qatar Airways, so TC just dealing with the hotel I suppose...

As long as you have tickets issued you should be ok. You would need to call hotel direct and see if they have been paid. The issues arise if you have paid the company in this case being Thomas Cook and they have not paid the suppliers.

Tickets are issued already, so those I could keep anyways? (worst case I maybe just would need to rebook a hotel by myself and keep the flight tickets).

So far, I have only paid the downpayment to TC... final balance due at the beginning of November, trip is in December...
So, the best would be to just wait and see how it goes?

Yes wait and see you cant do anything until you know either way. Worse case you maybe able to approach the hotel directly and tell them you still want the booking and pay them the amount direct but you would be paying them the full amount. To protect yourself you may want to hold an alternative option on Booking.com or similar one which has free cancellation up to 24 hours prior to departure just as security. Hopefully things will not get that far and somehow TC will pull through but you need to secure yourself also.

par13del wrote:

readytotaxi wrote:

Very much agree, you take out travel insurance to cover your trip unless you are stupid, why should the system have to cover stupid for no extra cost? If they don't learn the lesson they will keep putting their hand in the fire.

If your government using your taxes is going to pick up the cost, why pay twice?
Just saying there is a flip side.

What taxes are you talking about? As far as the UK is concerned the ATOL system is funded by a levy of £2.50 on every package holiday sold, if you don't buy package holidays you don't pay it. The money collected is held in a ring-fenced fund until it is needed to cover the collapse of a package holiday company.
Now I don't take package holidays, I arrange my own, but I do have travel insurance that includes cover for failure of scheduled air carriers. None of my taxes are used to help those who do choose package holidays.

AlexA340B777 wrote:

OA260 wrote:

AlexA340B777 wrote:

So I might be lucky as flights of my package holiday are on Qatar Airways, so TC just dealing with the hotel I suppose...

As long as you have tickets issued you should be ok. You would need to call hotel direct and see if they have been paid. The issues arise if you have paid the company in this case being Thomas Cook and they have not paid the suppliers.

Tickets are issued already, so those I could keep anyways? (worst case I maybe just would need to rebook a hotel by myself and keep the flight tickets).

So far, I have only paid the downpayment to TC... final balance due at the beginning of November, trip is in December...
So, the best would be to just wait and see how it goes?

It's such a mess for the travelling public with all this uncertainty. Someone wrote, the balance of £7500 was due to TC yetserday. They asked to delay payment for a week until more was known, but they were told to either pay or lose their holiday and £500 deposit. They forfeited the deposit and booked elsewhere.

I'm not sure if your QR flights will still be valid if TC go into administration. I think contractually you would need to apply for a refund and re-book - probably those same flights again with another operator.

I wish you luck, and just hope TC make it!

Thanks a lot for your feedbacks OA260 and flyjay123.

flyjay123 wrote:

Someone wrote, the balance of £7500 was due to TC yetserday. They asked to delay payment for a week until more was known, but they were told to either pay or lose their holiday and £500 deposit. They forfeited the deposit and booked elsewhere.

Saw that article but it did not state what decision they made . Interesting to know they went with the loss of deposit. I was actually wondering what I would do myself in that situation but they probably made the right choice. Better to loose £500 then £7500. Hard choice to make.

sprite86 wrote:

looks like FOSUN will buy the tour op's from the administrator and I'm hoping the banks keep the airline running as it is profitable

The airline is only profitable whilst being fed by the tour operator. It wouldnt be profitable without it. A FOSUN tour op may not contract its flying programme to TC airlines - surely it will go with the cheapest bid - like Club Med!

The banks must know more than we do ... otherwise why insist on a contingency fund at the 11th hour and jeopardise all the ref-finacing work done so far and the entire organisation .

Any news on potential repatriation aircraft yet?
i've noticed there are two Neos 789's on the ground at BHX (EI-NEO and EI-NUA) however they parked near the Monarch MRO hanger suggesting they are there for MX?

Hi everybody!

What's the prognosis for Condor? I have booked tickets (throught the airline itself) in November/December for a family vacation and already paid a large deposit for a holiday villa at the destination. What are the odds of the Condor flights not taking place? Is there anything I can do at the moment to prepare for the worst case? Would it be wise to try getting refundable alternative tickets at the same dates - as a backup?

flyjay123 wrote:

sprite86 wrote:

looks like FOSUN will buy the tour op's from the administrator and I'm hoping the banks keep the airline running as it is profitable

The airline is only profitable whilst being fed by the tour operator. It wouldnt be profitable without it. A FOSUN tour op may not contract its flying programme to TC airlines - surely it will go with the cheapest bid - like Club Med!

The banks must know more than we do ... otherwise why insist on a contingency fund at the 11th hour and jeopardise all the ref-finacing work done so far and the entire organisation .

Plus, the is nothing to say that the airline is actually profitable. The Thomas Cook group could easily account for its losses in the tour operation to make it look better...

PlaneInsomniac wrote:

Hi everybody!

What's the prognosis for Condor? I have booked tickets (throught the airline itself) in November/December for a family vacation and already paid a large deposit for a holiday villa at the destination. What are the odds of the Condor flights not taking place? Is there anything I can do at the moment to prepare for the worst case? Would it be wise to try getting refundable alternative tickets at the same dates - as a backup?

A refundable alternative might be a good back up at no additional cost to you. However I can't see Lufthansa letting Condor fold - and I would have thought it would be snapped up quickly, then your original booking would most likely be honoured.

The BBC news at 6pm was playing the story in a bad light, nothing positive.
Been looking at LGW for any odd aircraft arrivals incase the company is pooling seats but nothing yet. Let's hope it turns out fine.

PlaneInsomniac wrote:

Hi everybody!

What's the prognosis for Condor? I have booked tickets (throught the airline itself) in November/December for a family vacation and already paid a large deposit for a holiday villa at the destination. What are the odds of the Condor flights not taking place? Is there anything I can do at the moment to prepare for the worst case? Would it be wise to try getting refundable alternative tickets at the same dates - as a backup?

If you are an elite member of an airline, book an economy miles ticket. You can cancel with no penely. If you are not, it may still be worth it since the penalty isn't that bad. If you need miles, get one of those credit cards

flyjay123 wrote:

PlaneInsomniac wrote:

Hi everybody!

What's the prognosis for Condor? I have booked tickets (throught the airline itself) in November/December for a family vacation and already paid a large deposit for a holiday villa at the destination. What are the odds of the Condor flights not taking place? Is there anything I can do at the moment to prepare for the worst case? Would it be wise to try getting refundable alternative tickets at the same dates - as a backup?

A refundable alternative might be a good back up at no additional cost to you. However I can't see Lufthansa letting Condor fold - and I would have thought it would be snapped up quickly, then your original booking would most likely be honoured.

Surely the LH group all-ready has an cheque made out to the administrators on hand, just waiting for the right moment to take the bid an grab Condor.

Andy33 wrote:

par13del wrote:

readytotaxi wrote:

Very much agree, you take out travel insurance to cover your trip unless you are stupid, why should the system have to cover stupid for no extra cost? If they don't learn the lesson they will keep putting their hand in the fire.

If your government using your taxes is going to pick up the cost, why pay twice?
Just saying there is a flip side.

What taxes are you talking about? As far as the UK is concerned the ATOL system is funded by a levy of £2.50 on every package holiday sold, if you don't buy package holidays you don't pay it. The money collected is held in a ring-fenced fund until it is needed to cover the collapse of a package holiday company.

If that has enough money to cover the cost then fine, time will tell, hopefully TC won't go down that road.

Btw which are the largest bases/destinations for TC in terms of passengers? (so which airports will be more affected). Manchester?

SCQ83 wrote:

Btw which are the largest bases/destinations for TC in terms of passengers? (so which airports will be more affected). Manchester?

LGW and MAN followed by BHX I believe.

CWL757 wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

Btw which are the largest bases/destinations for TC in terms of passengers? (so which airports will be more affected). Manchester?

LGW and MAN followed by BHX I believe.

And id imagine TFS, PMI, LPA and ACE for destinations.

zkncj wrote:

Surely the LH group all-ready has an cheque made out to the administrators on hand, just waiting for the right moment to take the bid an grab Condor.

I guess they will wait until the very last second. Fingers crossed they will do it, at least taking the brand back.

Thomas cook group will meet with its banks, bond holders and FOSUN tomorrow in London at 9am to seek a urgent meeting to secure the rescue of the company.

If the meeting doesn’t have the desired out come then administrators will be called

https://news.sky.com/story/thomas-cook- ... e-11816496

CWL757 wrote:

CWL757 wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

Btw which are the largest bases/destinations for TC in terms of passengers? (so which airports will be more affected). Manchester?

LGW and MAN followed by BHX I believe.

And id imagine TFS, PMI, LPA and ACE for destinations.

Thomas Cook do have a lot of flights to Turkey and Egypt and are the largest tour operator to Tunisia I believe.

CWL757 wrote:

CWL757 wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

Btw which are the largest bases/destinations for TC in terms of passengers? (so which airports will be more affected). Manchester?

LGW and MAN followed by BHX I believe.

And id imagine TFS, PMI, LPA and ACE for destinations.

I'd say more Turkey (DLM and AYT), HRG, RMF and NBE will be the victims really. Long haul will also suffer.

TFS/LPA/ACE/PMI - Jet2/Tui have well and truly got them covered.

CWL757 wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

Btw which are the largest bases/destinations for TC in terms of passengers? (so which airports will be more affected). Manchester?

LGW and MAN followed by BHX I believe.

GLA has at least 3 A321s and long haul

Unfortunately, regardless of the outcome of tomorrow mornings’ emergency meeting, it’s terminal damage already.

The brand has been damaged so badly now, with this weeks news, that consumers will not have faith to book with TC anymore. It’s a downward spiral I’d say, sadly.

I would guess if the meeting does not go as planned, it will be curtains at midnight tomorrow, perhaps earlier as the CAA are on alert.

LuxuryTravelled wrote:

CWL757 wrote:

CWL757 wrote:

LGW and MAN followed by BHX I believe.

And id imagine TFS, PMI, LPA and ACE for destinations.

Thomas Cook do have a lot of flights to Turkey and Egypt and are the largest tour operator to Tunisia I believe.

Sorry I was being a bit one sided and only thinking of Spain. Yes Tunisia will really suffer and people are still quite cautious about Egypt so they may suffer. I think the void in Turkey and Greece will be filled by TUI/Jet2 fairly quickly. I don't suspect any of the Canaries will have trouble filling the void left either. I think the issue will be lack of available capacity with LS/BY.

CWL757 wrote:

CWL757 wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

Btw which are the largest bases/destinations for TC in terms of passengers? (so which airports will be more affected). Manchester?

LGW and MAN followed by BHX I believe.

And id imagine TFS, PMI, LPA and ACE for destinations.

There will indeed be a short term impact in the Canaries as Thomas Cook are a big enough operation there and of course the hotels/apartments they contract will suffer. TUI/EZY/JET2 can only increase based on what is physically possible / aircraft available. We will also see price increases as demand for seats outweigh current capacity. Airlines had already increased capacity due to FR pulling the plug in the Canaries.

Les Oranges hotel in Enfidha has locked Thomas Cook guests in over unpaid bills. Videos of the scene on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/caseeeyjaneeeee/sta ... 57313?s=21

https://twitter.com/ivana83556697/statu ... 67750?s=21

I wonder if IAG would be interested in buying the Thomas Cook name from the Administrator.

I am sure better management could save parts of the company and secure some sort of future.

FCAFLYBOY wrote:

I would guess if the meeting does not go as planned, it will be curtains at midnight tomorrow, perhaps earlier as the CAA are on alert.

I imagine that if the outcome of the 9 am meeting ends without a positive way forward, then closure would not wait till midnight.
However, the government is under pressure to do something, not least as one of the banks, RBS, requiring the additional £200m is state owned.

Could it be an easing of conditions or a lifeline, an organised wind down or will it end in liquidation?

The next few hours are critical.

Jet2/TUI,EZY etc are all rubbing their hands right now, its a win win for the competitors.

davidjohnson6 wrote:

If the meeting on Sunday morning fails to solve the problem, I think flights will continue until Sunday night - at least so everything gets back to home bass An orderly wind-down is to be desired - not something that leaves aircraft arrested away from their home base with several months delay of haggling with local creditors in different courts

Hopefully they have the operating capital to return the a/c back to base, we already have reports /rumors of guest being locked in for non-payment....

par13del wrote:

davidjohnson6 wrote:

If the meeting on Sunday morning fails to solve the problem, I think flights will continue until Sunday night - at least so everything gets back to home bass An orderly wind-down is to be desired - not something that leaves aircraft arrested away from their home base with several months delay of haggling with local creditors in different courts

Hopefully they have the operating capital to return the a/c back to base, we already have reports /rumors of guest being locked in for non-payment....

Some of that will likely come down to aircraft owners (and airport companies if they are owed money). You could understand that some lessors would be willing to get the aircraft back to an manageable base quick as possible rather than randomly spread out across the network. Makes it much essayer to start claiming the aircraft back, and getting them ready to release if they are all in an couple of locations rather than having to go get them from random out posts.

But at the same time its likely that most Airports will be owed money by now, and once they get wind of Thomas Cook entering administration they will not permit the the aircraft to leave as they will want to hold it as security.

zkncj wrote:

.

But at the same time its likely that most Airports will be owed money by now, and once they get wind of Thomas Cook entering administration they will not permit the the aircraft to leave as they will want to hold it as security.

Primera entered administration at 3pm, with the afternoon bank of flights departing on time at 4pm and continuing as scheduled until midnight, one even diverted on the way back with a medical and was still able to make it back.

Would imagine it’d be the same for TCX

MT1742 has left LGW.

Hopefully they are good for another day.

eagles94 wrote:

Les Oranges hotel in Enfidha has locked Thomas Cook guests in over unpaid bills. Videos of the scene on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/caseeeyjaneeeee/sta ... 57313?s=21

https://twitter.com/ivana83556697/statu ... 67750?s=21

Not a nice way to treat guests especially after the support Thomas Cook gave them after the terror attacks and their tourism industry was flattened. Certainly does nothing to promote their country.

Perhaps the hotel has ongoing problems getting money from Thomas Cook.

I have also heard a few times that these firms cut the hotels and other providers to the bone. The result is a distinct lack of goodwill.

KingB123 wrote:

Jet2/TUI,EZY etc are all rubbing their hands right now, its a win win for the competitors.

So will Virgin up at Manchester!

Will we see BA's densified 777's try their luck out of MAN by next spring .... or if they survive Norwegian dreamliners maybe!

OA260 wrote:

CWL757 wrote:

CWL757 wrote:

LGW and MAN followed by BHX I believe.

And id imagine TFS, PMI, LPA and ACE for destinations.

There will indeed be a short term impact in the Canaries as Thomas Cook are a big enough operation there and of course the hotels/apartments they contract will suffer. TUI/EZY/JET2 can only increase based on what is physically possible / aircraft available. We will also see price increases as demand for seats outweigh current capacity. Airlines had already increased capacity due to FR pulling the plug in the Canaries.

I am not sure they will massively increase the offer to cover for those lost seats.

Canarias is already suffering this 2019 (two-digit drop in international arrivals) and 2020 promises to be catastrophic with further reductions and the closure of Ryanair bases. And other carriers haven't been rushing to add the lost FR seats. Also the UK was overall the country that was more stable for 2020 in terms of offered seats VS 2019 when compared to Germany or Scandinavia.

https://turismodeislascanarias.com/site ... 16_sep.pdf

So losing TC's flights to Canarias will only put the UK "in line" with other countries like Germany or Sweden in the reduction of seats for next year.

Monarch went bankrupt at this time in 2017 which was a more favourable economic environment in Europe, so at that point it made more sense for other carriers to jump into their market.

uta999 wrote:

I wonder if IAG would be interested in buying the Thomas Cook name from the Administrator.

I am sure better management could save parts of the company and secure some sort of future.

The Chinese FOSUN want that brand name, they'll use it all over asia if they could. They like all things British - and thats an iconic brand name that they want their hands on.

SCQ83 wrote:

OA260 wrote:

CWL757 wrote:

And id imagine TFS, PMI, LPA and ACE for destinations.

There will indeed be a short term impact in the Canaries as Thomas Cook are a big enough operation there and of course the hotels/apartments they contract will suffer. TUI/EZY/JET2 can only increase based on what is physically possible / aircraft available. We will also see price increases as demand for seats outweigh current capacity. Airlines had already increased capacity due to FR pulling the plug in the Canaries.

And other carriers haven't been rushing to add the lost FR seats. Also the UK was overall the country that was more stable for 2020 in terms of offered seats VS 2019 when compared to Germany or Scandinavia.
.

Well taking ACE for example IBX has increased 13 flights a week to MAD. Vueling has taken the VLC slots from FR and Jet2 have increased ACE-LBA to compensate. Apparently TUI wants to increase to UK regionals too.

bennett123 wrote:

Perhaps the hotel has ongoing problems getting money from Thomas Cook.

I have also heard a few times that these firms cut the hotels and other providers to the bone. The result is a distinct lack of goodwill.

Tour operators like TC TUI Jet2 etc pay hotels after guests have stayed, unless they have advance payments written into the contracts for security of beds. Thomas Cook are known for late payments to suppliers, sometimes for months on end, or not even paying at all. It’s poor of the hotel to do this to the guests and it should be put to TC, but they know they aren’t going to get paid and there’s going to be a lot of other hoteliers feeling the same.

OA260 wrote:

Well taking ACE for example IBX has increased 13 flights a week to MAD. Vueling has taken the VLC slots from FR and Jet2 have increased ACE-LBA to compensate. Apparently TUI wants to increase to UK regionals too.

Iberia increases MAD-ACE from 11 to 13 weekly and Ryanair decreases MAD-ACE from 12 to 7. So there are still 3 "missing" frequencies. And MAD is a very specific route because there is much more than holiday traffic (captive traffic - VFR, business - that is not moving to Egypt or Tunisia) and Iberia Express can connect passengers from Europe to Lanzarote, of which probably there are now more given that there are fewer flights from ACE to Europe.

Some carriers might increase or open new routes but the lost seats do not account to any extent to the new additions.

OY-VKH diverted from ARN/CPH to MAN...
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