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Junglejames
Posts: 69
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:51 pm

Reports there was a Malaysian A380 at Manchester last night which took off back to Malaysia to recover passengers within minutes of the announcement.
Question. Is this true, and if so, what was a Malaysian A380 doing at Manchester?

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usflyer msp
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:54 pm

LH should not be allowed to purchase DE, even under the current circumstances. They have far too much control over the Central European aviation market. DE should be freestanding or if it has to be sold to one of the big groups, it should go to IAG.
 
ktof
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:58 pm

Junglejames wrote:
Reports there was a Malaysian A380 at Manchester last night which took off back to Malaysia to recover passengers within minutes of the announcement.
Question. Is this true, and if so, what was a Malaysian A380 doing at Manchester?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Not quite...

The A380 flew IN from KUL last night arriving around 00:10, sat on the tarmac for about 14 hours and departed to PMI to repatriate passengers around 14:30 this aft.

Due back into Manchester around 21:30 tonight.
 
egnr
Posts: 419
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:01 pm

Junglejames wrote:
Reports there was a Malaysian A380 at Manchester last night which took off back to Malaysia to recover passengers within minutes of the announcement.
Question. Is this true, and if so, what was a Malaysian A380 doing at Manchester?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


On Twitter it's reported as operating twice daily between Palma and Manchester to repatriate Thomas Cook passengers: https://twitter.com/airportnewsMAN/stat ... 39776?s=09
Last edited by egnr on Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
 
leghorn
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:01 pm

I see URLs like this existed on the Thomas Cook Website: https://www.thomascook.com/airlines/flybe/

Did FlyBE or Norwegian get paid in advance for the seats or are FlyBE and Norwegian out of pocket trying to sell the seats to someone else before they expire.
It is not just FlyBE, they use LCCs like Ryanair too.

I see the dynamic pricing on seats is kicking in on booking engines of other airlines in response to the demand being taken out of the market so that will help profits(slightly) for other airlines in the coming months
Last edited by leghorn on Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:02 pm

Looks like on Saturday night, Eastern sent two 767s towards the problem. One of them, N700KW, made it as far as Shannon and is still there. The other one, N703KW, went on from SNN to Menorca, Spain (MHH) and is now about to land at Gatwick.

Eastern has 8 lightly-used 767 aircraft (4 762s, 4 763s). Here's thinking that if they could staff them and they could be made to operate reliably, they could pick up a little business here.
 
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RobK
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:03 pm

ktof wrote:
Junglejames wrote:
Reports there was a Malaysian A380 at Manchester last night which took off back to Malaysia to recover passengers within minutes of the announcement.
Question. Is this true, and if so, what was a Malaysian A380 doing at Manchester?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Not quite...

The A380 flew IN from KUL last night arriving around 00:10, sat on the tarmac for about 14 hours and departed to PMI to repatriate passengers around 14:30 this aft.

Due back into Manchester around 21:30 tonight.


MAS hasn't gone anywhere. It's still there from when it arrived after midnight and isn't currently flight planned to go anywhere either.
 
vfw614
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:05 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
LH should not be allowed to purchase DE, even under the current circumstances. They have far too much control over the Central European aviation market. DE should be freestanding or if it has to be sold to one of the big groups, it should go to IAG.


From an anti-trust perspectives, it will depend on how the authorities define the relevant sub-markets. If Lufthansa were interested in Condor's longhaul business, the comparison would be with BA/AA on TATL services. Not sure if BA/AA could claim a dominant position with regard to the Lufthansa group.

But realistically, what has Condor to offer? Slots and staff are the only assets of interests and you don't need to take over Condor to get hold of those.
 
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RobK
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:06 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Looks like on Saturday night, Eastern sent two 767s towards the problem. One of them, N700KW, made it as far as Shannon and is still there. The other one, N703KW, went on from SNN to Menorca, Spain (MHH) and is now about to land at Gatwick.

Eastern has 8 lightly-used 767 aircraft (4 762s, 4 763s). Here's thinking that if they could staff them and they could be made to operate reliably, they could pick up a little business here.


N700KW due to leave for Las Palmas in an hour. The Gatwick one is delayed and hasn't left yet.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Thomas Cook Airlines News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:10 pm

ual763 wrote:
Ronaldo747 wrote:
First, thoughts to the TC staff!

Ronaldo747 wrote:

I guess they will wait until the very last second. Fingers crossed they will do it, at least taking the brand back.


For now I'm less optimistic to it after reading some German media. Lufthansa reportedly dismissed taking them back earlier this year after looking into their books, despite being profitable. Their fleet is old and needs massive investment.


Which is why I am thinking they may take just the brand. And then use some of Eurowings’ Airbuses to focus on European short-haul leisure destinations. And then *possibly* some of the Lufthansa Cityline A330s could be transferred to the Condor side to start back up some of the popular Caribbean/Indian Ocean long haul destinations in Winter. Back when Lufthansa owned Condor, they used to transfer aircraft between fleets regularly.


A handful of the Eurowings A320's and A319's are from the early/mid 90's, with all of the Cityline A340's from the same period (unless I'm mistaken and Cityline does have much newer 330's).
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
oschkosch
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:14 pm

vfw614 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
LH should not be allowed to purchase DE, even under the current circumstances. They have far too much control over the Central European aviation market. DE should be freestanding or if it has to be sold to one of the big groups, it should go to IAG.


From an anti-trust perspectives, it will depend on how the authorities define the relevant sub-markets. If Lufthansa were interested in Condor's longhaul business, the comparison would be with BA/AA on TATL services. Not sure if BA/AA could claim a dominant position with regard to the Lufthansa group.

But realistically, what has Condor to offer? Slots and staff are the only assets of interests and you don't need to take over Condor to get hold of those.
Staff will be too highly paid for LH to be interested, so they areba liability and not an asset....

Planes are also way too old for LH.

But anyway, cartel authorities will not allow it in any case.

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:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
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OA260
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:16 pm

Junglejames wrote:
Reports there was a Malaysian A380 at Manchester last night which took off back to Malaysia to recover passengers within minutes of the announcement.
Question. Is this true, and if so, what was a Malaysian A380 doing at Manchester?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


The CAA had this on their website but such is the scale of the rescue times will change at short notice and delays will happen as we have seen today.


New flight details

Date 23 September
Flight code MH991
Departure airport Palma De Mallorca (PMI)
Arrival airport Manchester (MAN)
Departure time (local) 19:40
Arrival time (local) 21:30

https://thomascook.caa.co.uk/customers/ ... september/
 
ktof
Posts: 51
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:18 pm

RobK wrote:
ktof wrote:
Junglejames wrote:
Reports there was a Malaysian A380 at Manchester last night which took off back to Malaysia to recover passengers within minutes of the announcement.
Question. Is this true, and if so, what was a Malaysian A380 doing at Manchester?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Not quite...

The A380 flew IN from KUL last night arriving around 00:10, sat on the tarmac for about 14 hours and departed to PMI to repatriate passengers around 14:30 this aft.

Due back into Manchester around 21:30 tonight.


MAS hasn't gone anywhere. It's still there from when it arrived after midnight and isn't currently flight planned to go anywhere either.


Odd one, I read that it was due out of MAN at 14:30, apologies.

it's definitely scheduled for the PMI repatriation as per the Thomas Cook CAA website.

https://thomascook.caa.co.uk/customers/ ... september/
 
fraT
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:18 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
LH should not be allowed to purchase DE, even under the current circumstances. They have far too much control over the Central European aviation market. DE should be freestanding or if it has to be sold to one of the big groups, it should go to IAG.


What if IAG is not interested?
Problem is that DE is heavily relying on LH feed for their longhaul flights. The minute they would be taken over by IAG, LH will cut those deals. So that is for the longhaul routes. For the flight to the Med area, I have also doubts that IAG is eager to enter this market with ever growing competition from LCCs.

LH is flying on many Interkont routes wing to wing with DE, same as LH/EW on EU leisure routes. So there is no need for LH to jump into action. I see it more as the last straw for DE and it's employees.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:30 pm

Although I am terribly sorry for all those poor people who have been working hard for the proud TC name, now my main concern is for the Condor brand to stay afloat, and "make a speedy recovery" out of the whims of the TC group. I'm one of those who is dreaming of an LH-owned DE. All it takes is to paint the Condor bird roundel back on those tails, in lieu of that stupid ass-shaped heart!
 
vfw614
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:37 pm

oschkosch wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
LH should not be allowed to purchase DE, even under the current circumstances. They have far too much control over the Central European aviation market. DE should be freestanding or if it has to be sold to one of the big groups, it should go to IAG.


From an anti-trust perspectives, it will depend on how the authorities define the relevant sub-markets. If Lufthansa were interested in Condor's longhaul business, the comparison would be with BA/AA on TATL services. Not sure if BA/AA could claim a dominant position with regard to the Lufthansa group.

But realistically, what has Condor to offer? Slots and staff are the only assets of interests and you don't need to take over Condor to get hold of those.


Staff will be too highly paid for LH to be interested, so they areba liability and not an asset....


I did not talk about a take-over. Lufthansa will wait until these employees are on the employment market and then offer contracts certainly not based on the old Condor contracts. The big if is whether or not Condor can stay afloat in its own right or whether or not a white knight is around the corner who is a risk for a wait and see approach.
 
Jetty
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:38 pm

Does anyone have a clue why this is called 'Operation Matterhorn'? Such an odd choice given that the original operation with the same name was about bombing Japan and Thomas Cook didn't even fly to Switzerland. Also it offended the Swiss, but of course you can count on Brits to offend Europeans when it is their own airline that fails.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news ... n-zermatt/
 
Andy33
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Quick question, why doesn't the CAA charter the Thomas Cook jets who are now sitting everywhere doing nothing. Could bring in some cash for the company for their creditors. The money now goes to companies who are working fine.


Because under UK law, the AOC of any airline in bankruptcy or administration is automatically cancelled. This is not the case in Germany, for example, and it would be perfectly possible to have changed the law to match really quickly, if only someone hadn't prorogued Parliament.
The planes themselves belong (in the main) to a variety of leasing companies, and they might start seizing them even if TCX was still operational.
 
Junglejames
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:57 pm

ktof wrote:
Junglejames wrote:
Reports there was a Malaysian A380 at Manchester last night which took off back to Malaysia to recover passengers within minutes of the announcement.
Question. Is this true, and if so, what was a Malaysian A380 doing at Manchester?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Not quite...

The A380 flew IN from KUL last night arriving around 00:10, sat on the tarmac for about 14 hours and departed to PMI to repatriate passengers around 14:30 this aft.

Due back into Manchester around 21:30 tonight.
So somebody was preempting the announcement.

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Cunard
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:09 pm

StrandedatMKG


Is that a responsible reply, I don't think so.

Once a company has gone into administration the employees whether they are management or front-line employees will be totally banned from their previous place of work and in some circumstances escorted off the premises. No time to steal the company's belongings as they are no longer that company's belongings they belong to the administrator's which in this case is KPMG.

At the end of the day whatever way that you look at it, it's theft and it might even affect any redundancy payments owed to that person.

Is it worth it, no it is not.

I'll give you an example.

I know of two waiters who were made redundant who stole the entire silver cutlery from the restaurant on their last day. They were searched and the cutlery was immediately found, they lost all of their money owed as part of the redundancy package. They were both went arrested and went to court for the offence and each have a criminal record for doing something that they both knew that they shouldn't have done in the first place.

I've been made redundant four times in my working career, did I think about stealing anything that wasn't nailed to the floor, no I didn't but I have very good self control and I think before I make rational decisions.

BTW superfan80's comments were totally out of order and his previous posts showed a total lack of empathy. I don't think that you have even taken time to entirely read this thread, if you had done you would have read his previous posts where others have commented in a similar way to myself. I totally stand by the comments made in my post.
Last edited by Cunard on Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
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OA260
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:11 pm

Sky News reporting that PMI-MAN will operate at midnight. Also Thomas Cook clients that arrived yesterday/today are being kicked out of hotels they mentioned the Martinique Hotel Magaluf. Some guests have headed back to PMI as no accomodation.
 
moa999
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:15 pm

Andy33 wrote:
Because under UK law, the AOC of any airline in bankruptcy or administration is automatically cancelled. This is not the case in Germany, for example, and it would be perfectly possible to have changed the law to match really quickly, if only someone hadn't prorogued Parliament.
The planes themselves belong (in the main) to a variety of leasing companies, and they might start seizing them even if TCX was still operational.


And the leasing company wants a UK court to quickly deal with the various transfer, and get the asset back working.

And not risk some foreign court granting a lien on the aircraft just because of the logo.
 
StdTank80002
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:22 pm

OA260 wrote:
Sky News reporting that PMI-MAN will operate at midnight. Also Thomas Cook clients that arrived yesterday/today are being kicked out of hotels they mentioned the Martinique Hotel Magaluf. Some guests have headed back to PMI as no accomodation.


I thought Atol protection stepped in here? They might have to move hotel but it will all be paid for.
 
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RobK
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:22 pm

OA260 wrote:
Sky News reporting that PMI-MAN will operate at midnight. Also Thomas Cook clients that arrived yesterday/today are being kicked out of hotels they mentioned the Martinique Hotel Magaluf. Some guests have headed back to PMI as no accomodation.


MAS8494 due off blocks at 7.30pm local time for Palma.

Atlas Air operates the TCX2868 flight to Orlando as GTI2868 at 6pm with N480MC B744.
 
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OA260
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:24 pm

RobK wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Sky News reporting that PMI-MAN will operate at midnight. Also Thomas Cook clients that arrived yesterday/today are being kicked out of hotels they mentioned the Martinique Hotel Magaluf. Some guests have headed back to PMI as no accomodation.


MAS8494 due off blocks at 7.30pm local time for Palma.


Great thanks for update that ties in then.
 
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RobK
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:32 pm

OA260 wrote:
RobK wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Sky News reporting that PMI-MAN will operate at midnight. Also Thomas Cook clients that arrived yesterday/today are being kicked out of hotels they mentioned the Martinique Hotel Magaluf. Some guests have headed back to PMI as no accomodation.


MAS8494 due off blocks at 7.30pm local time for Palma.


Great thanks for update that ties in then.


MAS8495 ETD Palma 2330Z Manchester 0145Z.
 
jubaexpress
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:33 pm

RobK wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Sky News reporting that PMI-MAN will operate at midnight. Also Thomas Cook clients that arrived yesterday/today are being kicked out of hotels they mentioned the Martinique Hotel Magaluf. Some guests have headed back to PMI as no accomodation.


MAS8494 due off blocks at 7.30pm local time for Palma.

Atlas Air operates the TCX2868 flight to Orlando as GTI2868 at 6pm with N480MC B744.


I just saw the 747 crew being escorted through the airport at about 17.15. Perhaps 1800 is optimistic?

Malaysian A380 is definitely parked up pretty much adjacent to the 747 round the back ish of T1.
 
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OA260
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:33 pm

StdTank80002 wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Sky News reporting that PMI-MAN will operate at midnight. Also Thomas Cook clients that arrived yesterday/today are being kicked out of hotels they mentioned the Martinique Hotel Magaluf. Some guests have headed back to PMI as no accomodation.


I thought Atol protection stepped in here? They might have to move hotel but it will all be paid for.


With such a confusing situation often things do not work as supposed to so they may have to claim money back upon arrival back into the UK. Not ideal situation if you have just arrived and got no where to stay and dont have money to buy new hotel rooms again. Some people will have the money and stay and claim back but those that dont best option is to get back and see what they can claim back due to being denied what they have paid for. At least its better compared to what the Tunisian hotels did and held people hostage. There has been a lot of anger about that today on various channels and rightly so. People will not forget that in a hurry.

Good that if reported further up that in Turkey the local authorities have set up funding to any hotels that loose money and have outlawed charging people. Thats the way to treat tourists who are in distress.
 
avek00
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:36 pm

vfw614 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
LH should not be allowed to purchase DE, even under the current circumstances. They have far too much control over the Central European aviation market. DE should be freestanding or if it has to be sold to one of the big groups, it should go to IAG.


From an anti-trust perspectives, it will depend on how the authorities define the relevant sub-markets. If Lufthansa were interested in Condor's longhaul business, the comparison would be with BA/AA on TATL services. Not sure if BA/AA could claim a dominant position with regard to the Lufthansa group.

But realistically, what has Condor to offer? Slots and staff are the only assets of interests and you don't need to take over Condor to get hold of those.


A takeover of Condor by Lufthansa would likely assert (and prevail in using) the "failing firm" defense in antitrust/competition law, which enables a merger transaction that otherwise might be blocked if the alternative is the shutdown of the target company. Condor is not viable in its current condition, and has no real ability to access the financial markets. DE also faces tens of millions of euros in recent/future bookings made thru MT for which DE won't be timely paid, and may not get paid in full or at all (airlines don't get paid for bookings issued on OAL ticket stock until several months after travel is completed).
Live life to the fullest.
 
phollingsworth
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:42 pm

StdTank80002 wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Sky News reporting that PMI-MAN will operate at midnight. Also Thomas Cook clients that arrived yesterday/today are being kicked out of hotels they mentioned the Martinique Hotel Magaluf. Some guests have headed back to PMI as no accomodation.


I thought Atol protection stepped in here? They might have to move hotel but it will all be paid for.


It is supposed to, but that does not mean the hotel has to accept the CAA’s guarantee that they will be paid. Even the the CAA will be hard pressed to contact all the hotels right away.
 
phollingsworth
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:45 pm

Andy33 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Quick question, why doesn't the CAA charter the Thomas Cook jets who are now sitting everywhere doing nothing. Could bring in some cash for the company for their creditors. The money now goes to companies who are working fine.


Because under UK law, the AOC of any airline in bankruptcy or administration is automatically cancelled. This is not the case in Germany, for example, and it would be perfectly possible to have changed the law to match really quickly, if only someone hadn't prorogued Parliament.
The planes themselves belong (in the main) to a variety of leasing companies, and they might start seizing them even if TCX was still operational.


While it is customary for an airlines AOC to be suspended when it enters administration it isn’t strictly required. The issue is few administrators are willing to take on the burdens the CAA imposes. This was an issue raised in the review commissioned by HMG after the Monarch collapse. Even the it doesn’t apply here as TC went into Liquidation not Administration.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:01 pm

avek00 wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
LH should not be allowed to purchase DE, even under the current circumstances. They have far too much control over the Central European aviation market. DE should be freestanding or if it has to be sold to one of the big groups, it should go to IAG.


From an anti-trust perspectives, it will depend on how the authorities define the relevant sub-markets. If Lufthansa were interested in Condor's longhaul business, the comparison would be with BA/AA on TATL services. Not sure if BA/AA could claim a dominant position with regard to the Lufthansa group.

But realistically, what has Condor to offer? Slots and staff are the only assets of interests and you don't need to take over Condor to get hold of those.


A takeover of Condor by Lufthansa would likely assert (and prevail in using) the "failing firm" defense in antitrust/competition law, which enables a merger transaction that otherwise might be blocked if the alternative is the shutdown of the target company.


There are - sensibly - restrictions to the failing firm defense in EU competition law. One that must be met is that is no alternative purchaser for the assets that would be less anti-competitive. LH is far from the only conceivable purchaser of Condor assets.
 
musman9853
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:04 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
330 still parked on T4 ramp at JFK this morning.

I would upload a picture but this site makes that a pain in the behind so use your imagination.

Sad end


just post it on imgur and paste the link.


https://imgur.com/upload?beta
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
Diverskii
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:12 pm

A real shame for all of the staff and pax.

Anyone who looked at the books would have seen what a mess TCG was in. No wonder the banks walked away... This is a group that has been loosing money for years, has virtually no assets and a whole load of liabilities. https://twitter.com/Frances_Coppola/sta ... 1582075904

It's a cruel market but adapt or die is the name of the game.
 
alan3
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:17 pm

avek00 wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
LH should not be allowed to purchase DE, even under the current circumstances. They have far too much control over the Central European aviation market. DE should be freestanding or if it has to be sold to one of the big groups, it should go to IAG.


From an anti-trust perspectives, it will depend on how the authorities define the relevant sub-markets. If Lufthansa were interested in Condor's longhaul business, the comparison would be with BA/AA on TATL services. Not sure if BA/AA could claim a dominant position with regard to the Lufthansa group.

But realistically, what has Condor to offer? Slots and staff are the only assets of interests and you don't need to take over Condor to get hold of those.


A takeover of Condor by Lufthansa would likely assert (and prevail in using) the "failing firm" defense in antitrust/competition law, which enables a merger transaction that otherwise might be blocked if the alternative is the shutdown of the target company. Condor is not viable in its current condition, and has no real ability to access the financial markets. DE also faces tens of millions of euros in recent/future bookings made thru MT for which DE won't be timely paid, and may not get paid in full or at all (airlines don't get paid for bookings issued on OAL ticket stock until several months after travel is completed).


Back in the day did LH ever own a majority of DE or was it always a minority share? Also, back in those days I guess there was more competition with LTU, Hapag Lloyd, Germania, etc.
 
Cafe5150
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:20 pm

With the Avion and Smartphone flights coming into the UK right now, will those aircraft be imposed as well?
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:20 pm

Thoughts to all of those suddenly out of the aviation career they loved.

Maybe we can see some heritage photos in time how Thompson Cook Airlines arrived on the scene through amalgamations.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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CarbonFibre
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:25 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Maybe we can see some heritage photos in time how Thompson Cook Airlines arrived on the scene through amalgamations.


I've added a few TCX photos to Flickr. Didn't manage to catch any Airworld, Caledonian, Flying Colours or JMC on digi.

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmHdaP9s
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:28 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
LH should not be allowed to purchase DE, even under the current circumstances. They have far too much control over the Central European aviation market. DE should be freestanding or if it has to be sold to one of the big groups, it should go to IAG.


For at least the short haul. TUI or easyJet would be better from a competition standpoint, unless it were spun off without the parent’s debt.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:30 pm

Could the government managed the bankruptcy to have ended less abruptly? And cheaper than estimates I have seen?
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:36 pm

A company I knew of had to lay off some of their CSA's. They did this on a Friday. But supervisors did not stay after their shift, the last shift of the day, to monitor those that had not left for the day. Several disgruntled employees that had been told they were layed off, took phones and files from their desk and put them into the trash bins in the break rooms. These files has Social Security numbers, and would normally only be disposed of in a locked bin for later shredding.

What the disgruntled employees never knew, was the the trash was never picked up later that Friday, as the cleaning crew did not come in later on Friday's, but came in on Sunday instead. And so, the phones and files were discovered and retrieved from the trash bins.

I can only assume the company put in new guidelines for when employees were laid off, especially since, if word got out to the general public, that there was such a breach of security to customers files going into a common trash bin, and not into the secured bin, there could have been costly damage to the company by customers using another client.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
sbworcs
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:52 pm

Gutted is the only word I can think of. Thomas Cook has been part of my travels for the best part of the last 35 years. You really have to feel for the the staff that have lost their jobs.

Whilst it is upsetting for cusotmers to have lost their holidays at least those that have bought packages will get their money back and can book at another time - the staff unfortunately don't have that luxury.

Hopefully some options will become available for them - lots of experience to lose in one fell swoop
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
IWMBH
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:53 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Could the government managed the bankruptcy to have ended less abruptly? And cheaper than estimates I have seen?


I don't know what the rules are in Britain and what the UK's governments stand is on this subject. But, in Germany Air Berlin was kept on life support by the German government if I remember correctly just to avoid this kind of situation. I think it is maybe a little cheaper in de long-run because you can use the Thomas Cook-fleet instead of leasing planes, which is relatively expensive with the MAX-groundings I imagine.
 
Cafe5150
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:54 pm

I meant will the Avion Express and Smartlynx aircraft be impounded at Manchester as well?
 
Binford
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:00 pm

Cafe5150 wrote:
I meant will the Avion Express and Smartlynx aircraft be impounded at Manchester as well?


No as they only operating on a wet lease basis for TCX and not owned or belonging to the Thomas Cook Fleet.

Moste of them are already back in the air doing repatriation flights operating for Titan Airways (AWC) at this time.
Last edited by Binford on Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:02 pm

Thomas cook 330 still on T4 ramp.

They moved it further from the terminal, adjacent Taxiway A.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:02 pm

Cafe5150 wrote:
I meant will the Avion Express and Smartlynx aircraft be impounded at Manchester as well?


I think most Avion and Smartlynx jets are already returned (except for 2 Smartlynx A321?). But, if not the jets will probably just return to the lessor (in this case Avion and Smartlynx). I don't think banks or airports can impound jets that are not wholly owned by Thomas Cook.
 
WingsOfLove
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:05 pm

alan3 wrote:
did LH ever own a majority of DE?


Lufthansa owned Condor from 1959 - 1997

Deutsche Lufthansa AG acquired Deutsche Flugdienst GmbH in 1959, which acquired Condor Luftreederei in 1961 and in November of that year changed its name to Condor Flugdienst GmbH.
In 1997 C&N Touristik AG became the new owner of Condor.
 
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OA260
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:06 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
A company I knew of had to lay off some of their CSA's. They did this on a Friday. But supervisors did not stay after their shift, the last shift of the day, to monitor those that had not left for the day. Several disgruntled employees that had been told they were layed off, took phones and files from their desk and put them into the trash bins in the break rooms. These files has Social Security numbers, and would normally only be disposed of in a locked bin for later shredding.

What the disgruntled employees never knew, was the the trash was never picked up later that Friday, as the cleaning crew did not come in later on Friday's, but came in on Sunday instead. And so, the phones and files were discovered and retrieved from the trash bins.

I can only assume the company put in new guidelines for when employees were laid off, especially since, if word got out to the general public, that there was such a breach of security to customers files going into a common trash bin, and not into the secured bin, there could have been costly damage to the company by customers using another client.



I guess thats why they secure all property usually in a case such as this. Not that I would expect such a thing to happen at Thomas Cook as the staff showed the utmost dignity and loyalty right up until the plug was pulled. They were looking after customers on Twitter and at resorts and airports. As with Monarch they were professional while having to deal with personal loss. In cases where redundancy is happening in a company that is still in business often staff have to sign agreements which state their payments will be cancelled should they partake in misconduct up until their departure from the company.

With regards Thomas Cook employees I have already seen various travel companies reaching out and offering opportunities and being the highly trained and motivated workforce they are I have no doubt that many will find new jobs.
Last edited by OA260 on Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Bongodog49
Posts: 182
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Re: Thomas Cook Bankruptcy Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:09 pm

leghorn wrote:
GB £ was at US $1.47 on Brexit vote day on 23rd June 2016.
It never got back near that in the last three years.
When your main centre of interest in the UK and you are buying inputs to your business in Dollars and Euro that doesn't give you the oxygen to breath when your business needs to handle a step change like the move by Consumers to internet bookings of flights and accommodation.


The exchange rate today is more or less exactly the same as it was in January 2017, in the meantime it has risen by about 5% and then dropped back again. Tour companies are typically taking bookings about 6 months ahead of travel, the fluctuations inthat timescale have been no different to what has happened many times in the past.

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