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InnsbruckFlyer
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Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Wed May 01, 2019 8:13 pm

I was living in Seattle when they cancelled it. Flew that flight many many times, and was always full. Not to mention, you could always find award space on it. Why on earth did they cancel it? SEA-NRT is a very profitable route!

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LAXBUR
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Wed May 01, 2019 8:15 pm

lol. What? If there’s always award space that’s usually a sign it isn’t performing that well. What is going on with this forum?
 
Rdh3e
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Wed May 01, 2019 8:18 pm

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
I was living in Seattle when they cancelled it. Flew that flight many many times, and was always full. Not to mention, you could always find award space on it. Why on earth did they cancel it? SEA-NRT is a very profitable route!

So you state it was always full, then state that there were always cheap seats available. Which one is it?

The last year it flew it only had 74% load factor - that is not stellar.
 
rwsea
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Wed May 01, 2019 8:19 pm

It's now served by NH, which is a UA joint venture partner.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Wed May 01, 2019 8:19 pm

Apparently it wasn't profitable for UA and they didn't see hope for a turnaround, otherwise they wouldn't have ended service.
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LAXintl
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Wed May 01, 2019 8:32 pm

NRT-SEA was a non-rev express.

As Jim Compton, United's chief revenue officer stated at the time:
1) It was loss making for many years
2) SEA is neither a hub or focus city so resources can be better allocated
3) Market dynamics over the years changed making route ever less viable
4) JV partner ANA covers the route already, so no need to duplicate with own metal.

Also remember UA kept a pilot base open to support the flying in SEA.
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jayunited
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Wed May 01, 2019 8:39 pm

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
I was living in Seattle when they cancelled it. Flew that flight many many times, and was always full. Not to mention, you could always find award space on it. Why on earth did they cancel it? SEA-NRT is a very profitable route!


Maybe years ago it was a profitable route but in its final years of operation it was the nonrev savior flight to and from NRT. There were many days you had more nonrevs on either SEA-NRT or NRT-SEA than revenue customers. Once UA started reducing service to SEA during the bankruptcy years you knew it was only a matter of time before the NRT flight would be canceled.
 
parodu
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Wed May 01, 2019 9:08 pm

The addition of DEN-NRT nonstop didn't help either. For many years, DEN was a tag on UA's NRT-SEA-DEN route, albeit with an equipment change much of the time, so it wasn't really a "single seat" flight. I took it quite a few times, and it was convenient in a way because SEA is almost perfectly aligned with the great circle route between DEN and NRT, so there wasn't any backhauling.

Once the nonstop from DEN opened up, there wasn't much incentive to stop and change planes in SEA anymore. UA's 788 was right-sized to DEN-NRT, and the 772 on SEA-NRT suddenly became way too much plane without the connecting traffic from DEN and behind.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Wed May 01, 2019 11:38 pm

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
I was living in Seattle when they cancelled it. Flew that flight many many times, and was always full. Not to mention, you could always find award space on it. Why on earth did they cancel it? SEA-NRT is a very profitable route!


A full plane does not equal profit in the airline industry.

As almost everyone said in past threads, the SEA-NRT was the low yielding 'express'. Full of price sensitive VFR, tourists on budget fares and people on non-revs. Filling the plane that way is a complete recipe to lose money on a long haul route.

No point continuing the route when a JV partner can fly the route at much higher yields, and the planes on SEA-NRT would be better utilised elsewhere at UA's hubs.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 12:32 am

compensateme wrote:
Apparently it wasn't profitable for UA and they didn't see hope for a turnaround, otherwise they wouldn't have ended service.



That's not correct in the least. When we got the Pan AM Pacific division the DOT decided we didn't need the SEA NRT and SEA HKG routes anymore. And they wanted some other US carrier tp get the routes. first they went to Continental then Delta, Neither could service the routes once they had them, but!! They wouldn't return to United because they thought we were getting too big too fast, As I recall? I believe NWA finally flew the routes until their merger with Delta where Delta cut the routes for some reason. the New Narita tall terminals were under construction and you had to take Busses from the airplane to the terminal. When you looked out the window?
All you saw were 747 tails. I Remember everybody turning and Looking out the window as Delta was Landing their L1011-500 as it was the only one on the field at that time of day. . The Asians Kind of had a fetish about the 747 as it was the biggest at the time and they all wanted to fly the top of the line equipment which they considered the 747 to be. I also found it interesting that Toyota had a Mercedes looking Limousine. You had to look twice to Not mistake it for a Mercedes. Also in Seoul? Hyundai had a HUGE sedan type Limo as well..
 
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Jamake1
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 12:58 am

strfyr51 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Apparently it wasn't profitable for UA and they didn't see hope for a turnaround, otherwise they wouldn't have ended service.



That's not correct in the least. When we got the Pan AM Pacific division the DOT decided we didn't need the SEA NRT and SEA HKG routes anymore. And they wanted some other US carrier tp get the routes. first they went to Continental then Delta, Neither could service the routes once they had them, but!! They wouldn't return to United because they thought we were getting too big too fast, As I recall? I believe NWA finally flew the routes until their merger with Delta where Delta cut the routes for some reason. the New Narita tall terminals were under construction and you had to take Busses from the airplane to the terminal. When you looked out the window?
All you saw were 747 tails. I Remember everybody turning and Looking out the window as Delta was Landing their L1011-500 as it was the only one on the field at that time of day. . The Asians Kind of had a fetish about the 747 as it was the biggest at the time and they all wanted to fly the top of the line equipment which they considered the 747 to be. I also found it interesting that Toyota had a Mercedes looking Limousine. You had to look twice to Not mistake it for a Mercedes. Also in Seoul? Hyundai had a HUGE sedan type Limo as well..


I think the original poster was referring to when UA operated SEA-NRT in recent years with the B777-200 , and not in the post Pan Am route acquisition days.
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luckyone
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 1:07 am

strfyr51 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Apparently it wasn't profitable for UA and they didn't see hope for a turnaround, otherwise they wouldn't have ended service.



That's not correct in the least. When we got the Pan AM Pacific division the DOT decided we didn't need the SEA NRT and SEA HKG routes anymore. And they wanted some other US carrier tp get the routes. first they went to Continental then Delta, Neither could service the routes once they had them, but!! They wouldn't return to United because they thought we were getting too big too fast, As I recall? I believe NWA finally flew the routes until their merger with Delta where Delta cut the routes for some reason. the New Narita tall terminals were under construction and you had to take Busses from the airplane to the terminal. When you looked out the window?
All you saw were 747 tails. I Remember everybody turning and Looking out the window as Delta was Landing their L1011-500 as it was the only one on the field at that time of day. . The Asians Kind of had a fetish about the 747 as it was the biggest at the time and they all wanted to fly the top of the line equipment which they considered the 747 to be. I also found it interesting that Toyota had a Mercedes looking Limousine. You had to look twice to Not mistake it for a Mercedes. Also in Seoul? Hyundai had a HUGE sedan type Limo as well..

The vehicle you’re mentioning is likely the Toyota Century. The Korean one could be one of several made by Hyundai or Ssang Yong.

Also, I think your timeline is a bit blurry. The Tristars has been gone for about seven years when Delta and NW announced their merger. The NRT route was the domain of the MD-11 until about 2004ish, and then the type was retired. It was often discussed around here at the time that the MD-11s were living on borrowed time pending 777 pilot agreements and fitting of a crew rest that would allow it to fly ATL-NRT with adequate rest facilities.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 1:23 am

strfyr51 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Apparently it wasn't profitable for UA and they didn't see hope for a turnaround, otherwise they wouldn't have ended service.



That's not correct in the least. When we got the Pan AM Pacific division the DOT decided we didn't need the SEA NRT and SEA HKG routes anymore. And they wanted some other US carrier tp get the routes. first they went to Continental then Delta, Neither could service the routes once they had them, but!! They wouldn't return to United because they thought we were getting too big too fast, As I recall? I believe NWA finally flew the routes until their merger with Delta where Delta cut the routes for some reason. the New Narita tall terminals were under construction and you had to take Busses from the airplane to the terminal. When you looked out the window?
All you saw were 747 tails. I Remember everybody turning and Looking out the window as Delta was Landing their L1011-500 as it was the only one on the field at that time of day. . The Asians Kind of had a fetish about the 747 as it was the biggest at the time and they all wanted to fly the top of the line equipment which they considered the 747 to be. I also found it interesting that Toyota had a Mercedes looking Limousine. You had to look twice to Not mistake it for a Mercedes. Also in Seoul? Hyundai had a HUGE sedan type Limo as well..


It is correct. Yes, the courts forced UA to give its SEA-NRT route to CO in the late 1980s... but surly you're aware UA operated the route once again from the mid-1990s until early 2014? I really, really, really, really doubt the OP was asking about a discontinuance that happened over 30 years ago...
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N649DL
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 1:38 am

It was a Smisek era "Scorched Earth" cut along with closing BKK. Sure SEA-NRT was probably breaking even (or not as profitable as the other routes to NRT) but the main reason I believe was the SEA base was super senior and did cost a lot of money to maintain it.

Although it did give DL the green light to own the market once UAL shut it down (DL I think inherited SEA-NRT from NW) so I wonder if UA is kicking themselves now?

"It is correct. Yes, the courts forced UA to give its SEA-NRT route to CO in the late 1980s... but surly you're aware UA operated the route once again from the mid-1990s until early 2014? I really, really, really, really doubt the OP was asking about a discontinuance that happened over 30 years ago..."

Is that true? I thought UA operated SEA-NRT at the same time as CO and then AA purchased it from CO or something like that? Then didn't AA drop it after 9/11 and focused on LAX-NRT instead?
 
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compensateme
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 2:09 am

N649DL wrote:
It was a Smisek era "Scorched Earth" cut along with closing BKK. Sure SEA-NRT was probably breaking even (or not as profitable as the other routes to NRT) but the main reason I believe was the SEA base was super senior and did cost a lot of money to maintain it.

Although it did give DL the green light to own the market once UAL shut it down (DL I think inherited SEA-NRT from NW) so I wonder if UA is kicking themselves now?

"It is correct. Yes, the courts forced UA to give its SEA-NRT route to CO in the late 1980s... but surly you're aware UA operated the route once again from the mid-1990s until early 2014? I really, really, really, really doubt the OP was asking about a discontinuance that happened over 30 years ago..."

Is that true? I thought UA operated SEA-NRT at the same time as CO and then AA purchased it from CO or something like that? Then didn't AA drop it after 9/11 and focused on LAX-NRT instead?


UA began operating SEA-NRT in 1983; after it acquired PA's Pacific network, in a contested decision, the DOT awarded the route to CO. CO operated it for just over two years (1989-1991); AA acquired the route from CO during its 1990 bankruptcy, began flying it in 1991 and discontinued it in late 2001.

UA was granted the rights to the route in 1998, and operated it until early 2014. CO never operated the route again (after 1991).

Image

SEA-NRT almost unquestionably lost money for UA during the entire length of its second reincarnation. The route was announced/began life as a 744, but was quickly downgauged to the 777 -- which was a pretty big deal 20 years ago (it may have been UA's first and only t-pac route operated with the 777). Throughout its history, it was popular among non-revs, award tickets and those seeking "easy upgrades." Throughout most of its life, the 777 operated same plane service from ORD, so it was possible to sit up front the whole way.

UA giving up the route made a lot of sense. UA was explicit that it was losing money, and DL had just announced its intentions to open a hub in SEA. Ultimately, UA is a for-profit corporation and did the right thing for its owners (shareholders).
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N174UA
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 3:06 am

compensateme wrote:
N649DL wrote:
It was a Smisek era "Scorched Earth" cut along with closing BKK. Sure SEA-NRT was probably breaking even (or not as profitable as the other routes to NRT) but the main reason I believe was the SEA base was super senior and did cost a lot of money to maintain it.

Although it did give DL the green light to own the market once UAL shut it down (DL I think inherited SEA-NRT from NW) so I wonder if UA is kicking themselves now?

"It is correct. Yes, the courts forced UA to give its SEA-NRT route to CO in the late 1980s... but surly you're aware UA operated the route once again from the mid-1990s until early 2014? I really, really, really, really doubt the OP was asking about a discontinuance that happened over 30 years ago..."

Is that true? I thought UA operated SEA-NRT at the same time as CO and then AA purchased it from CO or something like that? Then didn't AA drop it after 9/11 and focused on LAX-NRT instead?


UA began operating SEA-NRT in 1983; after it acquired PA's Pacific network, in a contested decision, the DOT awarded the route to CO. CO operated it for just over two years (1989-1991); AA acquired the route from CO during its 1990 bankruptcy, began flying it in 1991 and discontinued it in late 2001.

UA was granted the rights to the route in 1998, and operated it until early 2014. CO never operated the route again (after 1991).

Image

SEA-NRT almost unquestionably lost money for UA during the entire length of its second reincarnation. The route was announced/began life as a 744, but was quickly downgauged to the 777 -- which was a pretty big deal 20 years ago (it may have been UA's first and only t-pac route operated with the 777). Throughout its history, it was popular among non-revs, award tickets and those seeking "easy upgrades." Throughout most of its life, the 777 operated same plane service from ORD, so it was possible to sit up front the whole way.

UA giving up the route made a lot of sense. UA was explicit that it was losing money, and DL had just announced its intentions to open a hub in SEA. Ultimately, UA is a for-profit corporation and did the right thing for its owners (shareholders).


A LOT of controversy regarding the first era of the SEA-NRT route. It started pre-Pan Am, in 1983 as you said, as part of the "Royal Pacific Service" launch, which included several cities in Asia, such as SEL, BKK, MNL, et. al. United continued the route until 1987, when the courts/DOT Secretary Elizabeth Dole engineered the termination of UA's service, and it went to Continental, who CEO Frank Lorenzo had close ties with her and Sen. Robert Dole.

The second era of UA's SEA-NRT was really the casualty of a lot of factors, most of which being the 2001 recession, 9/11, UA's bankruptcy, and eventually Smisek who gutted UA's SEA operation. The flight originated and terminated in DEN, which at the time couldn't alone support DEN-NRT with a 777. But once the 787 came into the fleet, DEN-NRT nonstop was a priority, and that was likely the final nail in the coffin for SEA-NRT on UA.

I worked for UA in SEA in the summer of '96, and besides UA, NWA operated SEA-NRT with a 742 (later A332), and AA operated it with an MD-11 (later 772).
 
yeginleduc
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 3:09 am

I agree with the SEA-NRT on UA being the non-rev express. That was always the backup plan when trying to get home from asia. As long as you can get to NRT to connect to the UA flight you would be fine and really didn't need to check loads. SEA-HND on DL became that after it launched as well.
 
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 3:13 am

IIRC UA had attempted to downgauge the route to a 763 but was prohibited from doing so (by the pilots union maybe for a lack of crew rest?) for some reason or another.
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UA444
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 4:21 am

compensateme wrote:
N649DL wrote:
It was a Smisek era "Scorched Earth" cut along with closing BKK. Sure SEA-NRT was probably breaking even (or not as profitable as the other routes to NRT) but the main reason I believe was the SEA base was super senior and did cost a lot of money to maintain it.

Although it did give DL the green light to own the market once UAL shut it down (DL I think inherited SEA-NRT from NW) so I wonder if UA is kicking themselves now?

"It is correct. Yes, the courts forced UA to give its SEA-NRT route to CO in the late 1980s... but surly you're aware UA operated the route once again from the mid-1990s until early 2014? I really, really, really, really doubt the OP was asking about a discontinuance that happened over 30 years ago..."

Is that true? I thought UA operated SEA-NRT at the same time as CO and then AA purchased it from CO or something like that? Then didn't AA drop it after 9/11 and focused on LAX-NRT instead?


UA began operating SEA-NRT in 1983; after it acquired PA's Pacific network, in a contested decision, the DOT awarded the route to CO. CO operated it for just over two years (1989-1991); AA acquired the route from CO during its 1990 bankruptcy, began flying it in 1991 and discontinued it in late 2001.

UA was granted the rights to the route in 1998, and operated it until early 2014. CO never operated the route again (after 1991).

Image

SEA-NRT almost unquestionably lost money for UA during the entire length of its second reincarnation. The route was announced/began life as a 744, but was quickly downgauged to the 777 -- which was a pretty big deal 20 years ago (it may have been UA's first and only t-pac route operated with the 777). Throughout its history, it was popular among non-revs, award tickets and those seeking "easy upgrades." Throughout most of its life, the 777 operated same plane service from ORD, so it was possible to sit up front the whole way.

UA giving up the route made a lot of sense. UA was explicit that it was losing money, and DL had just announced its intentions to open a hub in SEA. Ultimately, UA is a for-profit corporation and did the right thing for its owners (shareholders).

Love that photo.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 4:22 am

N174UA wrote:
The second era of UA's SEA-NRT was really the casualty of a lot of factors, most of which being the 2001 recession, 9/11, UA's bankruptcy, and eventually Smisek who gutted UA's SEA operation. The flight originated and terminated in DEN, which at the time couldn't alone support DEN-NRT with a 777. But once the 787 came into the fleet, DEN-NRT nonstop was a priority, and that was likely the final nail in the coffin for SEA-NRT on UA..


I doubt the second incarnation ever made money; you can't blame it on 9-11 or Smisek (UA's position in SEA began declining many, many years before he took the helm of the company, as it built of SFO). Reality is, SEA wasn't a large enough market to support the level of competition, and NW's relationship with AS ultimately made it the winner. NW flew mostly high-capacity 747 and 744 on the route, with DC-10, 332 and 333 briefly serving some time as well.

USAirALB wrote:
IIRC UA had attempted to downgauge the route to a 763 but was prohibited from doing so (by the pilots union maybe for a lack of crew rest?) for some reason or another.


Your memory is off here. Nothing would've stopped UA from downgauging the route to the 763 -- UA operates both 763 and 764 from EWR & IAD to HNL on flights that are blocked longer than SEA-NRT would be. UA was explicit the route wasn't profitable, and cut the route shortly after DL announced it would build an intercontinental hub at SEA. From a business perspective, the route wasn't vital to its network, wasn't making money and had little hope of turning around.

As mentioned repeatedly on here, it was a favorite among non-revs for years -- hardly prosperous.
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N649DL
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 5:05 am

N174UA wrote:
compensateme wrote:
N649DL wrote:
It was a Smisek era "Scorched Earth" cut along with closing BKK. Sure SEA-NRT was probably breaking even (or not as profitable as the other routes to NRT) but the main reason I believe was the SEA base was super senior and did cost a lot of money to maintain it.

Although it did give DL the green light to own the market once UAL shut it down (DL I think inherited SEA-NRT from NW) so I wonder if UA is kicking themselves now?

"It is correct. Yes, the courts forced UA to give its SEA-NRT route to CO in the late 1980s... but surly you're aware UA operated the route once again from the mid-1990s until early 2014? I really, really, really, really doubt the OP was asking about a discontinuance that happened over 30 years ago..."

Is that true? I thought UA operated SEA-NRT at the same time as CO and then AA purchased it from CO or something like that? Then didn't AA drop it after 9/11 and focused on LAX-NRT instead?


UA began operating SEA-NRT in 1983; after it acquired PA's Pacific network, in a contested decision, the DOT awarded the route to CO. CO operated it for just over two years (1989-1991); AA acquired the route from CO during its 1990 bankruptcy, began flying it in 1991 and discontinued it in late 2001.

UA was granted the rights to the route in 1998, and operated it until early 2014. CO never operated the route again (after 1991).

Image

SEA-NRT almost unquestionably lost money for UA during the entire length of its second reincarnation. The route was announced/began life as a 744, but was quickly downgauged to the 777 -- which was a pretty big deal 20 years ago (it may have been UA's first and only t-pac route operated with the 777). Throughout its history, it was popular among non-revs, award tickets and those seeking "easy upgrades." Throughout most of its life, the 777 operated same plane service from ORD, so it was possible to sit up front the whole way.

UA giving up the route made a lot of sense. UA was explicit that it was losing money, and DL had just announced its intentions to open a hub in SEA. Ultimately, UA is a for-profit corporation and did the right thing for its owners (shareholders).


A LOT of controversy regarding the first era of the SEA-NRT route. It started pre-Pan Am, in 1983 as you said, as part of the "Royal Pacific Service" launch, which included several cities in Asia, such as SEL, BKK, MNL, et. al. United continued the route until 1987, when the courts/DOT Secretary Elizabeth Dole engineered the termination of UA's service, and it went to Continental, who CEO Frank Lorenzo had close ties with her and Sen. Robert Dole.

The second era of UA's SEA-NRT was really the casualty of a lot of factors, most of which being the 2001 recession, 9/11, UA's bankruptcy, and eventually Smisek who gutted UA's SEA operation. The flight originated and terminated in DEN, which at the time couldn't alone support DEN-NRT with a 777. But once the 787 came into the fleet, DEN-NRT nonstop was a priority, and that was likely the final nail in the coffin for SEA-NRT on UA.

I worked for UA in SEA in the summer of '96, and besides UA, NWA operated SEA-NRT with a 742 (later A332), and AA operated it with an MD-11 (later 772).


I've been on a big SNL kick recently and I know it's off topic but can't help it because you mentioned BOB DOLE LOL: https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live ... ing/n10910
 
Max Q
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 6:21 am

Didnt UA operate SEA-HKG for a while with a DC10-30 ?
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STT757
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 6:36 am

With regards to Tokyo, I don’t think anyone can complain about UA. Yes they dropped SEA-NRT but they added DEN-NRT.

Also there was DL dropping SFO-NRT so UA dropped SEA-NRT.


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Jamake1
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 7:28 am

N174UA wrote:
A LOT of controversy regarding the first era of the SEA-NRT route. It started pre-Pan Am, in 1983 as you said, as part of the "Royal Pacific Service" launch, which included several cities in Asia, such as SEL, BKK, MNL, et. al.


FWIW, United operated only three routes to Asia prior to the Pan Am Pacific Division purchase: SEA-HKG, SEA-NRT, and PDX-NRT. SEL, BKK, MNL, et.al. were all destinations that came as part of the Pan Am purchase.
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UA444
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 9:25 am

compensateme wrote:
N174UA wrote:
The second era of UA's SEA-NRT was really the casualty of a lot of factors, most of which being the 2001 recession, 9/11, UA's bankruptcy, and eventually Smisek who gutted UA's SEA operation. The flight originated and terminated in DEN, which at the time couldn't alone support DEN-NRT with a 777. But once the 787 came into the fleet, DEN-NRT nonstop was a priority, and that was likely the final nail in the coffin for SEA-NRT on UA..


I doubt the second incarnation ever made money; you can't blame it on 9-11 or Smisek (UA's position in SEA began declining many, many years before he took the helm of the company, as it built of SFO). Reality is, SEA wasn't a large enough market to support the level of competition, and NW's relationship with AS ultimately made it the winner. NW flew mostly high-capacity 747 and 744 on the route, with DC-10, 332 and 333 briefly serving some time as well.

USAirALB wrote:
IIRC UA had attempted to downgauge the route to a 763 but was prohibited from doing so (by the pilots union maybe for a lack of crew rest?) for some reason or another.


Your memory is off here. Nothing would've stopped UA from downgauging the route to the 763 -- UA operates both 763 and 764 from EWR & IAD to HNL on flights that are blocked longer than SEA-NRT would be. UA was explicit the route wasn't profitable, and cut the route shortly after DL announced it would build an intercontinental hub at SEA. From a business perspective, the route wasn't vital to its network, wasn't making money and had little hope of turning around.

As mentioned repeatedly on here, it was a favorite among non-revs for years -- hardly prosperous.

He was correct, under the old pilot contract, the 763 was forbidden from doing flights to Asia because of the crew rest area requirements.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 10:06 am

UA444 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
N174UA wrote:
The second era of UA's SEA-NRT was really the casualty of a lot of factors, most of which being the 2001 recession, 9/11, UA's bankruptcy, and eventually Smisek who gutted UA's SEA operation. The flight originated and terminated in DEN, which at the time couldn't alone support DEN-NRT with a 777. But once the 787 came into the fleet, DEN-NRT nonstop was a priority, and that was likely the final nail in the coffin for SEA-NRT on UA..


I doubt the second incarnation ever made money; you can't blame it on 9-11 or Smisek (UA's position in SEA began declining many, many years before he took the helm of the company, as it built of SFO). Reality is, SEA wasn't a large enough market to support the level of competition, and NW's relationship with AS ultimately made it the winner. NW flew mostly high-capacity 747 and 744 on the route, with DC-10, 332 and 333 briefly serving some time as well.

USAirALB wrote:
IIRC UA had attempted to downgauge the route to a 763 but was prohibited from doing so (by the pilots union maybe for a lack of crew rest?) for some reason or another.


Your memory is off here. Nothing would've stopped UA from downgauging the route to the 763 -- UA operates both 763 and 764 from EWR & IAD to HNL on flights that are blocked longer than SEA-NRT would be. UA was explicit the route wasn't profitable, and cut the route shortly after DL announced it would build an intercontinental hub at SEA. From a business perspective, the route wasn't vital to its network, wasn't making money and had little hope of turning around.

As mentioned repeatedly on here, it was a favorite among non-revs for years -- hardly prosperous.

He was correct, under the old pilot contract, the 763 was forbidden from doing flights to Asia because of the crew rest area requirements.


He’s not correct. UA planned a 787-8 on the route, not a 763, but terminated the route once DL — which was operating twice daily service to TYO (NRT and short lived HND) — announced it was opening a hub at SEA. At the time, UA claimed the service had been unprofitable, they didn’t see the situation improving and NH served the route as well.

Honestly, I don’t get why the UA fan boys refuse to believe this flight wasn’t profitable, and it was all some giant conspiracy by the Evil Jeff Smisek to destroy UA.

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... iners.html
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 10:42 am

All legacies retrenched to hubs during this time period.


It goes beyond SEA NRT on one airline. Look at UA at MIA and JFK during the same period.

Beyond Delta, the other two legacies never really resumed P2P (or focus city) flights like this again.

Some great posts above...particularly about the 763 not having adequate crew rest areas per UA contract, the CO/UA route award in the 80s, and the 90s inaugural photo
 
wernerga3
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 1:33 pm

compensateme wrote:

UA began operating SEA-NRT in 1983; after it acquired PA's Pacific network, in a contested decision, the DOT awarded the route to CO. CO operated it for just over two years (1989-1991); AA acquired the route from CO during its 1990 bankruptcy, began flying it in 1991 and discontinued it in late 2001.


UA officially began their purchased PAA routes in 1986, after the sale in late 1985- Not 1983. Along with the routes came the 11 747SPs, 6 L1011-500s, and one DC10-30 (national). It was $750 million ($715.5 million for Pacific routes and 747SPs/L1011s, and $34.5 million for the DC10-30).

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html


A lot of the reasoning was fleet standardization, and to fund the 1987 upcoming cabin changes they could not afford.

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KlimaBXsst
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 3:51 pm

The L1011-500 seems like a good fit at the time for the long thin routes.

Wonder how much of a factor equipment played in UA’s decision.
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Sancho99504
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 6:12 pm

compensateme wrote:
UA444 wrote:
compensateme wrote:

I doubt the second incarnation ever made money; you can't blame it on 9-11 or Smisek (UA's position in SEA began declining many, many years before he took the helm of the company, as it built of SFO). Reality is, SEA wasn't a large enough market to support the level of competition, and NW's relationship with AS ultimately made it the winner. NW flew mostly high-capacity 747 and 744 on the route, with DC-10, 332 and 333 briefly serving some time as well.



Your memory is off here. Nothing would've stopped UA from downgauging the route to the 763 -- UA operates both 763 and 764 from EWR & IAD to HNL on flights that are blocked longer than SEA-NRT would be. UA was explicit the route wasn't profitable, and cut the route shortly after DL announced it would build an intercontinental hub at SEA. From a business perspective, the route wasn't vital to its network, wasn't making money and had little hope of turning around.

As mentioned repeatedly on here, it was a favorite among non-revs for years -- hardly prosperous.

He was correct, under the old pilot contract, the 763 was forbidden from doing flights to Asia because of the crew rest area requirements.


He’s not correct. UA planned a 787-8 on the route, not a 763, but terminated the route once DL — which was operating twice daily service to TYO (NRT and short lived HND) — announced it was opening a hub at SEA. At the time, UA claimed the service had been unprofitable, they didn’t see the situation improving and NH served the route as well.

Honestly, I don’t get why the UA fan boys refuse to believe this flight wasn’t profitable, and it was all some giant conspiracy by the Evil Jeff Smisek to destroy UA.

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... iners.html

That was after the merger. Before the merger, Tilton and Co wanted to further downgauge to 763 but couldn't get pilots to budge on the contract limitations. AFTER the merger, it was supposed to go 788 before they pulled it because DEN-NRT was performing better than expected and the JV with NH nade UA unnecessary on SEA-NRT.


The route operated for a long while on 77E DEN-SEA-NRT-SEA-DEN. Before the abrubt retirement of the 737s, UA had a decent amount of flights into and out of SEA. Post bankruptcy, Tilton decided the only way to profitability, was to shrink. SEA saw drastic cuts in service prior to the merge with CO.
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 8:28 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
The route operated for a long while on 77E DEN-SEA-NRT-SEA-DEN.

Not really sure that the entire run was a 777 the entire time. Buddy of mine flew United 875 in December of 2010. United 875 from DEN to SEA was a Boeing 757-200. United 875 from SEA to NRT was a 777, as was United 875 from NRT to SIN, although there was a change of aircraft involved.
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 8:37 pm

AirKevin wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
The route operated for a long while on 77E DEN-SEA-NRT-SEA-DEN.

Not really sure that the entire run was a 777 the entire time. Buddy of mine flew United 875 in December of 2010. United 875 from DEN to SEA was a Boeing 757-200. United 875 from SEA to NRT was a 777, as was United 875 from NRT to SIN, although there was a change of aircraft involved.

When I quit UA in 07, it was still coming fron DEN as a 77E. Not sure when it switched. But then again, I believe 972, SEA-FRA was a SEA-IAD on 752 and IAD-FRA on 77E. 936 was SEA-LHR via ORD on 752 switching to 77E in ORD. So, 752 to 77E doesn't really surprise me.
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AirKevin
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 9:06 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
The route operated for a long while on 77E DEN-SEA-NRT-SEA-DEN.

Not really sure that the entire run was a 777 the entire time. Buddy of mine flew United 875 in December of 2010. United 875 from DEN to SEA was a Boeing 757-200. United 875 from SEA to NRT was a 777, as was United 875 from NRT to SIN, although there was a change of aircraft involved.

When I quit UA in 07, it was still coming fron DEN as a 77E. Not sure when it switched. But then again, I believe 972, SEA-FRA was a SEA-IAD on 752 and IAD-FRA on 77E. 936 was SEA-LHR via ORD on 752 switching to 77E in ORD. So, 752 to 77E doesn't really surprise me.

Copy. Did not know it was a 777 back then. I guess they added NRT-SIN at some point since United 875 in December of 2010 was DEN-SEA-NRT-SIN rather than just DEN-SEA-NRT..
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 9:11 pm

AirKevin wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Not really sure that the entire run was a 777 the entire time. Buddy of mine flew United 875 in December of 2010. United 875 from DEN to SEA was a Boeing 757-200. United 875 from SEA to NRT was a 777, as was United 875 from NRT to SIN, although there was a change of aircraft involved.

When I quit UA in 07, it was still coming fron DEN as a 77E. Not sure when it switched. But then again, I believe 972, SEA-FRA was a SEA-IAD on 752 and IAD-FRA on 77E. 936 was SEA-LHR via ORD on 752 switching to 77E in ORD. So, 752 to 77E doesn't really surprise me.

Copy. Did not know it was a 777 back then. I guess they added NRT-SIN at some point since United 875 in December of 2010 was DEN-SEA-NRT-SIN rather than just DEN-SEA-NRT..


I started with UA in SEA in 2002, it was a 777 then. Every now and then, we'd get a 744 or 763 from DEN, but it would go back to DEN.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 9:59 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
That was after the merger. Before the merger, Tilton and Co wanted to further downgauge to 763 but couldn't get pilots to budge on the contract limitations. AFTER the merger, it was supposed to go 788 before they pulled it because DEN-NRT was performing better than expected and the JV with NH nade UA unnecessary on SEA-NRT.

The route operated for a long while on 77E DEN-SEA-NRT-SEA-DEN. Before the abrubt retirement of the 737s, UA had a decent amount of flights into and out of SEA. Post bankruptcy, Tilton decided the only way to profitability, was to shrink. SEA saw drastic cuts in service prior to the merge with CO.


I spent several years with UA, You have to understand, the ~60 daily flights UA operated into SEA in the late 1990s/early 2000s -- all to its hubs, including numerous widebodies (domestic and three-cabin versions of the DC-10, 747, 767 and 777), has a lot to do (as a principle, not SEA specifically) with why UA struggled so badly in the 2000s to begin with. If the legacies would've focused on margin and profit instead of chasing market share, the problems the industry faced would've never reached the depth that they did. Businesses evolve, industries evolve and the UA fan boys who think UA should still be dominating SEA today because they had such a high market share in the 1980s and 1990s need to realize this. Consider that nearly half of those 60 flights were operated by the Shuttle, designed to fend off WN... and WN subsequently cut more than 25% of its peak SEA operation, even as SEA has nearly doubled the number of flight offerings.

Reality is, SEA-NRT wasn't profitable for UA. They absorbed years of losses, and even committed to maintaining service with the 787, but DL's decision to establish a hub at SEA lead them to end service. UA was losing money in the market, DL was operating two flights (HND and NRT at the time) and was committed to heavy losses at SEA in order to establish a hub. UA would've been crazy NOT to have cut service.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
N649DL
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 10:09 pm

UA444 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
N174UA wrote:
The second era of UA's SEA-NRT was really the casualty of a lot of factors, most of which being the 2001 recession, 9/11, UA's bankruptcy, and eventually Smisek who gutted UA's SEA operation. The flight originated and terminated in DEN, which at the time couldn't alone support DEN-NRT with a 777. But once the 787 came into the fleet, DEN-NRT nonstop was a priority, and that was likely the final nail in the coffin for SEA-NRT on UA..


I doubt the second incarnation ever made money; you can't blame it on 9-11 or Smisek (UA's position in SEA began declining many, many years before he took the helm of the company, as it built of SFO). Reality is, SEA wasn't a large enough market to support the level of competition, and NW's relationship with AS ultimately made it the winner. NW flew mostly high-capacity 747 and 744 on the route, with DC-10, 332 and 333 briefly serving some time as well.

USAirALB wrote:
IIRC UA had attempted to downgauge the route to a 763 but was prohibited from doing so (by the pilots union maybe for a lack of crew rest?) for some reason or another.


Your memory is off here. Nothing would've stopped UA from downgauging the route to the 763 -- UA operates both 763 and 764 from EWR & IAD to HNL on flights that are blocked longer than SEA-NRT would be. UA was explicit the route wasn't profitable, and cut the route shortly after DL announced it would build an intercontinental hub at SEA. From a business perspective, the route wasn't vital to its network, wasn't making money and had little hope of turning around.

As mentioned repeatedly on here, it was a favorite among non-revs for years -- hardly prosperous.

He was correct, under the old pilot contract, the 763 was forbidden from doing flights to Asia because of the crew rest area requirements.


There was a UA 763 on LHR-DEL in the 1990s. How did they get around the crew rest issue back then? That's also a very long flight.
 
Bonafide
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 10:16 pm

UA and DL made a deal. If DL dropped SFO-NRT then UA would drop SEA to NRT which were the building blocks to DL in SEA
 
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 10:28 pm

compensateme wrote:
UA444 wrote:
compensateme wrote:

I doubt the second incarnation ever made money; you can't blame it on 9-11 or Smisek (UA's position in SEA began declining many, many years before he took the helm of the company, as it built of SFO). Reality is, SEA wasn't a large enough market to support the level of competition, and NW's relationship with AS ultimately made it the winner. NW flew mostly high-capacity 747 and 744 on the route, with DC-10, 332 and 333 briefly serving some time as well.



Your memory is off here. Nothing would've stopped UA from downgauging the route to the 763 -- UA operates both 763 and 764 from EWR & IAD to HNL on flights that are blocked longer than SEA-NRT would be. UA was explicit the route wasn't profitable, and cut the route shortly after DL announced it would build an intercontinental hub at SEA. From a business perspective, the route wasn't vital to its network, wasn't making money and had little hope of turning around.

As mentioned repeatedly on here, it was a favorite among non-revs for years -- hardly prosperous.

He was correct, under the old pilot contract, the 763 was forbidden from doing flights to Asia because of the crew rest area requirements.


He’s not correct. UA planned a 787-8 on the route, not a 763, but terminated the route once DL — which was operating twice daily service to TYO (NRT and short lived HND) — announced it was opening a hub at SEA. At the time, UA claimed the service had been unprofitable, they didn’t see the situation improving and NH served the route as well.

Honestly, I don’t get why the UA fan boys refuse to believe this flight wasn’t profitable, and it was all some giant conspiracy by the Evil Jeff Smisek to destroy UA.

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... iners.html

I'm not an UA fan-boy nor am I a CO fan-boy so I don't know the reason to get all defensive.

I'm speaking in pre-merger times around 2008/2007. It was around the same time that Tilton proposed to shift all IAD-Europe flights to BOB food in Y.
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compensateme
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 10:29 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
When I quit UA in 07, it was still coming fron DEN as a 77E. Not sure when it switched. But then again, I believe 972, SEA-FRA was a SEA-IAD on 752 and IAD-FRA on 77E. 936 was SEA-LHR via ORD on 752 switching to 77E in ORD. So, 752 to 77E doesn't really surprise me.

Copy. Did not know it was a 777 back then. I guess they added NRT-SIN at some point since United 875 in December of 2010 was DEN-SEA-NRT-SIN rather than just DEN-SEA-NRT..


I started with UA in SEA in 2002, it was a 777 then. Every now and then, we'd get a 744 or 763 from DEN, but it would go back to DEN.


In the late 1990s/early 2000s, UA operated multiple widebodies daily into SEA from ORD and DEN, including DC-10, 747, 763 and 777. IAD saw the occasional 763 and 777 as well. Both ORD and DEN (as well as IAD) saw three-cabin 777 service, but the aircraft that continued to/from NRT typically came from ORD. DEN may have retained the through flight number, I can't remember. After the 777 took over one of the ORD flights, as well as IAD, it was scheduled less often via SEA - mostly on a seasonal basis.

Bonafide wrote:
UA and DL made a deal. If DL dropped SFO-NRT then UA would drop SEA to NRT which were the building blocks to DL in SEA


Collusion is very much illegal in the USA. If you have knowledge or proof that happened, I suggest you get in contact with a lawyer before the statue of limitations runs out, since you'll be entitled to a whistleblower reward.
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compensateme
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 10:35 pm

USAirALB wrote:
compensateme wrote:
UA444 wrote:
He was correct, under the old pilot contract, the 763 was forbidden from doing flights to Asia because of the crew rest area requirements.


He’s not correct. UA planned a 787-8 on the route, not a 763, but terminated the route once DL — which was operating twice daily service to TYO (NRT and short lived HND) — announced it was opening a hub at SEA. At the time, UA claimed the service had been unprofitable, they didn’t see the situation improving and NH served the route as well.

Honestly, I don’t get why the UA fan boys refuse to believe this flight wasn’t profitable, and it was all some giant conspiracy by the Evil Jeff Smisek to destroy UA.

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... iners.html

I'm not an UA fan-boy nor am I a CO fan-boy so I don't know the reason to get all defensive.

I'm speaking in pre-merger times around 2008/2007. It was around the same time that Tilton proposed to shift all IAD-Europe flights to BOB food in Y.


I was with UA through 2009, and the topic never came up. The Company wanted to convert its two-cabin 763 for intercontinental use, but didn't have the cash (virtually all capex expenses were going into refurbishing the premium cabins on the 763, 777 and 744; inital plans were to update the economy cabins on the 763 and 777 as well, but the 763 didn't make the cut due to lack of funding). If any discussion took place, it was in late 2009 or after, but I'm skeptical that UA would insure the 763 for Pacific use for a single money losing flight.
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 11:26 pm

wernerga3 wrote:
compensateme wrote:

UA began operating SEA-NRT in 1983; after it acquired PA's Pacific network, in a contested decision, the DOT awarded the route to CO. CO operated it for just over two years (1989-1991); AA acquired the route from CO during its 1990 bankruptcy, began flying it in 1991 and discontinued it in late 2001.


UA officially began their purchased PAA routes in 1986, after the sale in late 1985- Not 1983. Along with the routes came the 11 747SPs, 6 L1011-500s, and one DC10-30 (national). It was $750 million ($715.5 million for Pacific routes and 747SPs/L1011s, and $34.5 million for the DC10-30).

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html


A lot of the reasoning was fleet standardization, and to fund the 1987 upcoming cabin changes they could not afford.

Image



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Stitch
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Thu May 02, 2019 11:53 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
The route operated for a long while on 77E DEN-SEA-NRT-SEA-DEN.

AirKevin wrote:
Not really sure that the entire run was a 777 the entire time. Buddy of mine flew United 875 in December of 2010. United 875 from DEN to SEA was a Boeing 757-200. United 875 from SEA to NRT was a 777, as was United 875 from NRT to SIN, although there was a change of aircraft involved.

Sancho99504 wrote:
When I quit UA in 07, it was still coming fron DEN as a 77E. Not sure when it switched. But then again, I believe 972, SEA-FRA was a SEA-IAD on 752 and IAD-FRA on 77E. 936 was SEA-LHR via ORD on 752 switching to 77E in ORD. So, 752 to 77E doesn't really surprise me.


I flew UA a fair bit in/out of SEA in the mid-2000s and I could reliably book a 777 SEA-ORD and DEN-SEA (as well as IAD-DEN swapping to the 757 for the DEN-SEA leg) and I believe the latter was UA 875 DEN-SEA-NRT. I also flew 875 SEA-NRT in 2005 and it was an awesome flight. The Purser set up a cart with linen and flowers for the Business Class meal service so it was "seat-side" like the First Class service up front (the cabin was fairly empty which may have contributed to why she did it that way, but I appreciated the effort).
 
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Fri May 03, 2019 1:29 am

Bonafide wrote:
UA and DL made a deal. If DL dropped SFO-NRT then UA would drop SEA to NRT which were the building blocks to DL in SEA


I can’t tell if you are joking or not. As another poster pointed out, it doesn’t work this way unless you’d like to be everyone’s boy in jail.
 
LittleFokker
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Fri May 03, 2019 2:09 am

parodu wrote:
The addition of DEN-NRT nonstop didn't help either. For many years, DEN was a tag on UA's NRT-SEA-DEN route, albeit with an equipment change much of the time, so it wasn't really a "single seat" flight. I took it quite a few times, and it was convenient in a way because SEA is almost perfectly aligned with the great circle route between DEN and NRT, so there wasn't any backhauling.

Once the nonstop from DEN opened up, there wasn't much incentive to stop and change planes in SEA anymore. UA's 788 was right-sized to DEN-NRT, and the 772 on SEA-NRT suddenly became way too much plane without the connecting traffic from DEN and behind.


I may be off on my timeline, but wasn't SEA-NRT discontinued at least a year before DEN-NRT began? I didn't think DEN-NRT starting had anything to do with SEA-NRT discontinuing.
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FlyingElvii
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Fri May 03, 2019 5:32 am

jayunited wrote:
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
I was living in Seattle when they cancelled it. Flew that flight many many times, and was always full. Not to mention, you could always find award space on it. Why on earth did they cancel it? SEA-NRT is a very profitable route!


Maybe years ago it was a profitable route but in its final years of operation it was the nonrev savior flight to and from NRT. There were many days you had more nonrevs on either SEA-NRT or NRT-SEA than revenue customers. Once UA started reducing service to SEA during the bankruptcy years you knew it was only a matter of time before the NRT flight would be canceled.

The demise of the Wingswest/Mesa partnership might have had something to with it, as well. United tried for years to compete with Horizon/Alaska in the Northwest, later with Skywest as a partner, and just couldn’t make it work.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Fri May 03, 2019 5:07 pm

Stitch wrote:
I flew UA a fair bit in/out of SEA in the mid-2000s and I could reliably book a 777 SEA-ORD and DEN-SEA (as well as IAD-DEN swapping to the 757 for the DEN-SEA leg) and I believe the latter was UA 875 DEN-SEA-NRT. I also flew 875 SEA-NRT in 2005 and it was an awesome flight. The Purser set up a cart with linen and flowers for the Business Class meal service so it was "seat-side" like the First Class service up front (the cabin was fairly empty which may have contributed to why she did it that way, but I appreciated the effort).

Copy. I can't speak for 2005, but at least in December of 2010, 875 was DEN-SEA-NRT-SIN with DEN-SEA being a 757. I wonder if the flight was full when DEN-SEA was a 777.
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Sancho99504
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Fri May 03, 2019 5:25 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
jayunited wrote:
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
I was living in Seattle when they cancelled it. Flew that flight many many times, and was always full. Not to mention, you could always find award space on it. Why on earth did they cancel it? SEA-NRT is a very profitable route!


Maybe years ago it was a profitable route but in its final years of operation it was the nonrev savior flight to and from NRT. There were many days you had more nonrevs on either SEA-NRT or NRT-SEA than revenue customers. Once UA started reducing service to SEA during the bankruptcy years you knew it was only a matter of time before the NRT flight would be canceled.

The demise of the Wingswest/Mesa partnership might have had something to with it, as well. United tried for years to compete with Horizon/Alaska in the Northwest, later with Skywest as a partner, and just couldn’t make it work.



EMB-120s flying to PDX, GEG and EUG didn't really stack up against CRJ-700s and Q400s.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
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Stitch
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Fri May 03, 2019 6:27 pm

AirKevin wrote:
I can't speak for 2005, but at least in December of 2010, 875 was DEN-SEA-NRT-SIN with DEN-SEA being a 757. I wonder if the flight was full when DEN-SEA was a 777.


In general it was not, but the first time I flew her there was a tremendous blizzard descending upon DEN and she was literally one of the last frames UA was getting out that day so she went out at 100%. :wink2:
 
gwrudolph
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Re: Why did UA cancel SEA-NRT?

Sat May 04, 2019 12:00 am

I think the reason for stopping SEA-NRT was a combination of realizing that staffing and equipping international flights from a gateway where you don’t have scale just doesn’t make economic sense (better to use the aircraft elsewhere more profitably) and the fact that concepts like west coast gateways, which once made sense from a range perspective, were no longer necessary and therefore made no economic sense. Hence the reason DL ended SFO-NRT and UA SEA-NRT. To my knowledge, the only UA non-hub O/D flight that still exists is HNL-NRT and I will bet that’s under constant scrutiny

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