OB1504
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 7:07 am

bgm wrote:
Yet another 737 runway overrun. Why do these incidents always seem to be on that aircraft? Higher approach speeds vs other aircraft?


It’s also the most popular airplane in the world, so wouldn’t that mean that most overruns would have a higher likelihood of being a 737?
 
slcguy
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Re: Plane crash in Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 7:14 am

Wingtips56 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Oh Christ, CNN has Schiavo pontificating already...

She does nothing to improve CNN's trustworthiness. I stopped listening to her years ago. She came from NTSB as I recall, but she's full of crap.


There's a reason she is no longer with the NTSB and now just a talking head for CNN. Listen to her for 5 minutes! I know having to listen to anything on CNN now is a pain. 30 years ago they were a good news network, but times change.
Last edited by slcguy on Sat May 04, 2019 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
bgm
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 7:17 am

OB1504 wrote:
bgm wrote:
Yet another 737 runway overrun. Why do these incidents always seem to be on that aircraft? Higher approach speeds vs other aircraft?


It’s also the most popular airplane in the world, so wouldn’t that mean that most overruns would have a higher likelihood of being a 737?


The A320 series is also very popular but you don’t see anywhere near the number of runway overruns as the 737, specifically the NG.
████ ███ █ ███████ ██ █ █████ ██ ████ [redacted]
 
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zkojq
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 7:29 am

bgm wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
bgm wrote:
Yet another 737 runway overrun. Why do these incidents always seem to be on that aircraft? Higher approach speeds vs other aircraft?


It’s also the most popular airplane in the world, so wouldn’t that mean that most overruns would have a higher likelihood of being a 737?


The A320 series is also very popular but you don’t see anywhere near the number of runway overruns as the 737, specifically the NG.


Indeed. ROPS is a key reason for that.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... amily.html

Please note that I'm not flaming the 737NG or anything.
First to fly the 787-9
 
wjcandee
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Re: Plane crash in Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 7:31 am

SierraPacific wrote:

Miami Air is based in the North side of the Miami airport along with a couple of other airlines like Skylease, Amerijet, and World Atlantic Airlines. It is nicknamed corrosion corner because of the terrible maintenance of their aircraft and the tendency for them to abandon their aircraft on the northeast side of MIA.

They are generally known as very sketchy airlines that on average have a serious accident once a year. I was referencing the last time Skylease overran a runway in November which was the last corrosion corner airline accident.


Not fair to lump them together. Miami Air is considered to be a very good pax charter carrier. Amerijet has had new owners for over a year, is expanding, and is swamped with business. It's the best of the cargo carriers that ply the Islands and South America. Amerijet leases all its aircraft from CAM, and its heavy maintenance is done by AMES at ILN -- just like the Patriots' 767s, Len Blavatnik's 767, ABX Air's maintenance, ATI's maintenance, some Delta 767 maintenance, and all of the UPS 767 cockpit upgrades. So to say that Amerijet doesn't have good maintenance is just uninformed.

It's fun to know what terms like "corrosion corner" are referring to -- "Look, I'm in the know!!!!" -- but such broad generalizations are often not fair or true, and this one isn't.

Skylease, OTOH, is a carrier that keeps soldiering on, apparently on the thinnest of financial threads and with pilots who continue to fly for them just to preserve the possibility that they might someday be paid, if you believe that scuttlebutt.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Plane crash in Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 7:47 am

slcguy wrote:
Wingtips56 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Oh Christ, CNN has Schiavo pontificating already...

She does nothing to improve CNN's trustworthiness. I stopped listening to her years ago. She came from NTSB as I recall, but she's full of crap.


There's a reason she is no longer with the NTSB and now just a talking head for CNN. Listen to her for 5 minutes! I know having to listen to anything on CNN now is a pain. 30 years ago they were a good news network, but times change.


Well, she's a lawyer and author who specializes in airline accident litigation. Anytime she's on the air with her Scary Mary stuff, it's really just an effort to drive business to her law firm. She knows all the lingo, but her ability actually to reason is in my view more-limited than most people. She parlayed her status as Inspector General for the NTSB (a beancounter position, not an accident investigative position) into a "career" as a tut-tutter by implying that she has experience that she doesn't. There are some very good retired NTSB investigators who have intelligent commentary to make, but she was never an accident investigator and just used the name of the agency to imply that she was something she wasn't. The crap she says is so often uninformed, but it's right up the alley of the folks at CNN, who now have really no credibility as to anything they write or say about pretty-much anything. All of these folks make money by being colorful and dramatic, because that's what CNN etc want, so nothing they say should be taken at face value.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Plane crash in Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 7:51 am

SierraPacific wrote:
I have heard they are hiring CFI's right at 1500 hours so it would not surprise me if that was a factor in this accident at all


Southern is hiring folks for its 737s with 1000 hours total time, no turbine time, and a restricted ATP.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 9:08 am

The B737's wing is closer to the ground, increasing ground effect. This probably causes the aircraft to be floaty and the main gear wheels to have less weight on them to grip the ground. This by itself decreases the braking effect, but could be exacerbated on wet runways by the activation of anti-skid (this is what we call the ABS on aircraft).

This probaby explains the high number of B737 overruns in wet weather.
 
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CrimsonNL
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 9:42 am

With the exception of 1 or 2 years, Miami Air have been regulars at AMS every summer since 2007. Operating summer-leases for Martinair, Transavia and Tui. In fact the accident aircraft was scheduled to operate out of AMS this year again. Around AMS they are known as a very reliable and professional operator, hence the recurring leases!

I've never heard of anyone here having bad experiences with them, unlike some of the Eastern-European airlines that operate these leases as well. I really understand why someone suggested that they are a dodgy operator, on par with some of the other "corrosion corner" MIA based carriers.

Martijn
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
BUFJACK10
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 9:48 am

bgm wrote:
Yet another 737 runway overrun. Why do these incidents always seem to be on that aircraft? Higher approach speeds vs other aircraft?


Could be that the sheer number of 737’s in service increase the odds of an incident. Can’t really say the aircraft is at fault until all the facts are in.
AA AK AL AQ AS B6 CO DL EA FL F9 HP KN NY MO NW PA PE PI RC QX TW UA UR US WN AF AN AO CS IB OA TR VS
A300 A319 A320 BAE146 BAC111 DC8 DC9 DC10 MD80 707 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 787 L10 F27 F28 F100 ERJ CRJ SE-210 SSC B1900 ATR42 ATR72 DH8 E120 SWM
 
ltbewr
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 10:03 am

Did the aircraft land too far down the runway, especially in what were rainy/wet conditions ? Was the rain heavier than the PF expected ? That are the first things I would look at. Was there a problem with cross or tail winds, wind shear, the brakes, the anti-skid systems not working properly or a tire failure. Was it not possible to do a 'go around' ?. Did the PF just screw up the landing ? All that is subject to investigation as possible circumstances of this serious incident. There should be plenty of data from the plane's recorders and ATC. The pilots are alive and physically ok.
 
kalvado
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 10:11 am

BUFJACK10 wrote:
bgm wrote:
Yet another 737 runway overrun. Why do these incidents always seem to be on that aircraft? Higher approach speeds vs other aircraft?


Could be that the sheer number of 737’s in service increase the odds of an incident. Can’t really say the aircraft is at fault until all the facts are in.

I see 7008 NG in service, and 865 older generation. Airbus got 1811 of 321, 4774 of 320, 2329 of 319 and 57 of 318, for a total of 8971
So it looks there are slightly more airbus narrowbodies flying.
 
slcguy
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Re: Plane crash in Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 10:14 am

wjcandee wrote:
slcguy wrote:
Wingtips56 wrote:
She does nothing to improve CNN's trustworthiness. I stopped listening to her years ago. She came from NTSB as I recall, but she's full of crap.


There's a reason she is no longer with the NTSB and now just a talking head for CNN. Listen to her for 5 minutes! I know having to listen to anything on CNN now is a pain. 30 years ago they were a good news network, but times change.


Well, she's a lawyer and author who specializes in airline accident litigation. Anytime she's on the air with her Scary Mary stuff, it's really just an effort to drive business to her law firm. She knows all the lingo, but her ability actually to reason is in my view more-limited than most people. She parlayed her status as Inspector General for the NTSB (a beancounter position, not an accident investigative position) into a "career" as a tut-tutter by implying that she has experience that she doesn't. There are some very good retired NTSB investigators who have intelligent commentary to make, but she was never an accident investigator and just used the name of the agency to imply that she was something she wasn't. The crap she says is so often uninformed, but it's right up the alley of the folks at CNN, who now have really no credibility as to anything they write or say about pretty-much anything. All of these folks make money by being colorful and dramatic, because that's what CNN etc want, so nothing they say should be taken at face value.


Thank you for backing me up!
 
Armodeen
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 10:27 am

bgm wrote:
Yet another 737 runway overrun. Why do these incidents always seem to be on that aircraft? Higher approach speeds vs other aircraft?


And another one in the USA landing with a tailwind in heavy rain on a short (ish) runway. Thank god for those 1500 hour minimums eh! :roll:

I’m glad everyone is ok, and let’s hope the animals survive. As the poster above mentioned this aircraft looks done for unfortunately.
 
crownvic
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Re: Plane crash in Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 10:38 am

csturdiv wrote:
Is the nose cone off on that picture posted above?


Could be question of the year posting...
 
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BirdBrain
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 10:38 am

So ... is it a write off
:duck:
 
crownvic
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Re: Plane crash in Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 10:49 am

What's a "corrosion corner overrun'?[/quote]

SieeraPacific quote:

Miami Air is based in the North side of the Miami airport along with a couple of other airlines like Skylease, Amerijet, and World Atlantic Airlines. It is nicknamed corrosion corner because of the terrible maintenance of their aircraft and the tendency for them to abandon their aircraft on the northeast side of MIA.

They are generally known as very sketchy airlines that on average have a serious accident once a year. I was referencing the last time Skylease overran a runway in November which was the last corrosion corner airline accident.[/quote]

THIS IS TOTALLY WRONG


Biscayne738 quote:

Not correct! Corrosion Corner was named after the many propliners that were abandoned on the northwest corner of the airport in the 60 and 70s. I spent many years on the North side of MIA. It’s no longer Corrosion Corner and is known as the NW36th Street gang. Miami Air is a solid airline, operating civilian and military charters all over the world safely for many year

THIS IS TOTALLY CORRECT
 
FlyingColours
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 10:56 am

CrimsonNL wrote:
With the exception of 1 or 2 years, Miami Air have been regulars at AMS every summer since 2007. Operating summer-leases for Martinair, Transavia and Tui. In fact the accident aircraft was scheduled to operate out of AMS this year again. Around AMS they are known as a very reliable and professional operator, hence the recurring leases!

I've never heard of anyone here having bad experiences with them, unlike some of the Eastern-European airlines that operate these leases as well. I really understand why someone suggested that they are a dodgy operator, on par with some of the other "corrosion corner" MIA based carriers.

Martijn


Indeed Miami Air had a good reputation here in the UK too, at XL Airways we had 737s off them for several summers and would even send them some of ours for the winter seasons. Incidentally the former G-OXLD was one of the last aircraft I worked on as crew, having gone to Tenerife and back 6 days before we went bust.

The aircraft were in good shape and when we sent our birds Stateside they always came back in good condition too.

At least there was no major casualties in this crash though I sincerely hope that any animals in the hold are rescued safe & sound.

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
OB1504
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Re: Plane crash in Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 11:23 am

wjcandee wrote:
It's fun to know what terms like "corrosion corner" are referring to -- "Look, I'm in the know!!!!" -- but such broad generalizations are often not fair or true, and this one isn't.


Especially given that Corrosion Corner has been gone for almost two decades now.
 
morrisond
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 11:49 am

As someone pointed out above - there was a tailwind - generally that's a big no-no.
 
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FLIHGH
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Re: Plane crash in Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 12:11 pm

SierraPacific wrote:
KAUSpilot wrote:
Biscayne738 wrote:


LOL.

You know when they're losing pilots even to places like Atlas there are problems. They pay dung and probably get dung for pilots right now.


I have heard they are hiring CFI's right at 1500 hours so it would not surprise me if that was a factor in this accident at all

Frontier has recently had hired CFIs with 1,000 hours total time. Let’s not make assumptions.
 
maint123
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 12:12 pm

Lucky passangers. Could have been much worse.
Only two possibilities -
1. Pilot error due to decline in training standards.
2. ATC mistake. Alowing the Boeing 737 to land on a shortened runaway during wet weather.
 
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OA940
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 12:12 pm

Yikes. Glad to see everyone is ok.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
TheOldDude
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 12:28 pm

OB1504 wrote:
bgm wrote:
Yet another 737 runway overrun. Why do these incidents always seem to be on that aircraft? Higher approach speeds vs other aircraft?


It’s also the most popular airplane in the world, so wouldn’t that mean that most overruns would have a higher likelihood of being a 737?


Excellent question! While everyone has an opinion, does anyone have the facts necessary to answer this question? For example, in the past five years, which five aircraft had the highest ratio of overruns to landings? If not that, use a reasonable proxy for landings...

Surely the data must be accessible somewhere.
 
N766UA
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Re: Plane crash in Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 12:29 pm

KAUSpilot wrote:
Biscayne738 wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:


LOL.

You know when they're losing pilots even to places like Atlas there are problems. They pay dung and probably get dung for pilots right now.


I personally know of one enormous heaping dung pile that went there.
 
SamTheGeek
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 12:29 pm

bgm wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
bgm wrote:
Yet another 737 runway overrun. Why do these incidents always seem to be on that aircraft? Higher approach speeds vs other aircraft?


It’s also the most popular airplane in the world, so wouldn’t that mean that most overruns would have a higher likelihood of being a 737?


The A320 series is also very popular but you don’t see anywhere near the number of runway overruns as the 737, specifically the NG.


True, though I think part of this is likely that the 737NG has been popular for longer than the A32X series, meaning the average fleet age is higher and they’re more likely to trickle down to operators who don’t solely fly them between large public airports — increasing risk factors unrelated to the airframe itself.
 
Aviation737
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 12:35 pm

kalvado wrote:
BUFJACK10 wrote:
bgm wrote:
Yet another 737 runway overrun. Why do these incidents always seem to be on that aircraft? Higher approach speeds vs other aircraft?


Could be that the sheer number of 737’s in service increase the odds of an incident. Can’t really say the aircraft is at fault until all the facts are in.

I see 7008 NG in service, and 865 older generation. Airbus got 1811 of 321, 4774 of 320, 2329 of 319 and 57 of 318, for a total of 8971
So it looks there are slightly more airbus narrowbodies flying.

So what do you think 737 got more accidents?
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 12:50 pm

Aviation737 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
BUFJACK10 wrote:

Could be that the sheer number of 737’s in service increase the odds of an incident. Can’t really say the aircraft is at fault until all the facts are in.

I see 7008 NG in service, and 865 older generation. Airbus got 1811 of 321, 4774 of 320, 2329 of 319 and 57 of 318, for a total of 8971
So it looks there are slightly more airbus narrowbodies flying.

So what do you think 737 got more accidents?


A study was done a few years ago:

The 737NG has 0.27 hull losses per million departures

The A320 has 0.26 hull losses per million departures.

The numbers are very similar.

Statistics though don’t always tell a good story. The 737 has had 5 significant runway excursion events in the last year, but Fewer than that the prior 5 years. Generalizations on safety are not easy to make
Last edited by Weatherwatcher1 on Sat May 04, 2019 12:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
kalvado
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 12:53 pm

SamTheGeek wrote:
bgm wrote:
OB1504 wrote:

It’s also the most popular airplane in the world, so wouldn’t that mean that most overruns would have a higher likelihood of being a 737?


The A320 series is also very popular but you don’t see anywhere near the number of runway overruns as the 737, specifically the NG.


True, though I think part of this is likely that the 737NG has been popular for longer than the A32X series, meaning the average fleet age is higher and they’re more likely to trickle down to operators who don’t solely fly them between large public airports — increasing risk factors unrelated to the airframe itself.

NG flown commercially in 1997, a320 in 1988. Should be the other way around.
 
kalvado
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 12:56 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Aviation737 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
I see 7008 NG in service, and 865 older generation. Airbus got 1811 of 321, 4774 of 320, 2329 of 319 and 57 of 318, for a total of 8971
So it looks there are slightly more airbus narrowbodies flying.

So what do you think 737 got more accidents?


A study was done a few years ago:

The 737NG has 0.27 hull losses per million departures

The A320 has 0.26 hull losses per million departures.

The numbers are very similar.

737 seems to have more runway overruns specifically. Previous one is WN in BUR in December. Would be interesting to look at that specific statistics
 
rlwynn
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 1:04 pm

Too bad about the animals.
I can drive faster than you
 
N766UA
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 1:06 pm

kalvado wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Aviation737 wrote:
So what do you think 737 got more accidents?


A study was done a few years ago:

The 737NG has 0.27 hull losses per million departures

The A320 has 0.26 hull losses per million departures.

The numbers are very similar.

737 seems to have more runway overruns specifically. Previous one is WN in BUR in December. Would be interesting to look at that specific statistics


It’s my understanding that the 737, particularly the -700, has significantly better runway performance than the 320. Hence why you see them in EYW, for example. Total conjecture, but perhaps 737’s tend to operate from shorter runways more often than 320’s, hence an increased risk? Personally I think it’s all coincidence, but...
 
ual763
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Re: Plane crash in Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 1:09 pm

Planetalk wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
It had been raining in the area at the time of the aircraft's approach so the runway was wet and had ponding water on it.


Imagine if American pilots had to fly in kind of conditions that are routine in the monsoon season in SE Asia. It'd be carnage. Those pilots out there must be damn good.

Having lived in Colombia a while, which is basically covered in monster cumulonimbus year round, and terrain that makes for some very interesting (visual only!) approaches a lot of pilots get nowhere near enough respect on this forum if they're not from the right country.


Meet Florida

Funny, you’re saying this, because most Colombian airline pilots train in Florida.
Last edited by ual763 on Sat May 04, 2019 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 1:10 pm

BirdBrain wrote:
So ... is it a write off
:duck:

Though it was a. 2001 build, according to the last SDR I could find (strangely from 2015) it had pretty low cycles and hours totals.

That being said, it looks to have landing gear, engine and avionics damage, which are pretty much the 3most expensive things to replace or fix on an aircraft. I’d be surprised to See it repaired.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
Etheereal
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Re: Plane crash in Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 1:10 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
Glad all are safe. Has to be a nerve wracking experience. Hopefully the media doesn't start some mass 737 hysteria now, however....

I got from google notifs as a "new 737 max story" .. just to talk about hysteria and fake news.
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
ual763
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 1:16 pm

bgm wrote:
Yet another 737 runway overrun. Why do these incidents always seem to be on that aircraft? Higher approach speeds vs other aircraft?


Seems there was quite a high profile one on the MD-88 a few years ago at LGA. Or could it be due to the fact that the 737 is the most popular airliner in the World...
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
F27500
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 1:16 pm

Any word on how the animals in the hold made out? Were they rescued, I hope ?
 
PIMountaineer
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Re: Plane crash in Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 1:19 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Oh Christ, CNN has Schiavo pontificating already...


Indeed. And full of more useless hot air than the Hindenburg.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 1:28 pm

kalvado wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Aviation737 wrote:
So what do you think 737 got more accidents?


A study was done a few years ago:

The 737NG has 0.27 hull losses per million departures

The A320 has 0.26 hull losses per million departures.

The numbers are very similar.

737 seems to have more runway overruns specifically. Previous one is WN in BUR in December. Would be interesting to look at that specific statistics


The statistics on use on shorter runways in the United States show the impact of Southwest’s fleet

Yesterday there were 61 737 departures from BUR and only 6 A320 family

Yesterday there was 83 737 departures from SNA and only 18 A320 family
 
Jetty
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 1:30 pm

With this incident included the last 8(!) civil aviation incidents causing death or hull loss were with Boeing planes. :shock: Doesn’t look good.
 
dr1980
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 1:39 pm

maint123 wrote:
Lucky passangers. Could have been much worse.
Only two possibilities -
1. Pilot error due to decline in training standards.
2. ATC mistake. Alowing the Boeing 737 to land on a shortened runaway during wet weather.


#2 ultimately ends up being #1 as the pilot has the final say/responsibility.
Dave/CYHZ
 
achmafooma
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 1:56 pm

maint123 wrote:
Lucky passangers. Could have been much worse.
Only two possibilities -
1. Pilot error due to decline in training standards.
2. ATC mistake. Alowing the Boeing 737 to land on a shortened runaway during wet weather.

If it is #2, wouldn't pilot error still be a cause (whether it be root or contributing)? If ATC tells you to land with a tailwind on a short, wet runway, I assume the pilot has a responsibility to tell ATC that's not doable (or at least not advisable) and ask for another runway or a diversion to another field. IANAP so happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. (EDIT: I see dr1980 already said the same thing.)

Runway overruns seem to be (relatively) common, as air accidents go. I'm curious how long pilots have to initiate a go-around...I usually hear about 'em when they miss the approach or aren't lined up properly or something, but once you're on the ground and you aren't slowing down fast enough, can you initiate a go-around at that point? Obviously it depends on your speed and how much runway you have ahead of you...but in a typical landing scenario, is there time to deploy the speed brakes and reversers, figure out that they aren't doing enough, and do a go around?

I just heard a rumor from one of the TV talking heads that there might have been a hydraulic or brake failure (no idea what the original source on that might be so I'm not believing it at this point)... But I am curious if you bring a plane to a complete stop on the reversers alone in the case of a brake failure? I assume yes. I also assume that the other way around (no reversers, but working brakes) would be much more difficult on a wet runway with a tailwind.

Most importantly, glad that all the [humans] are safe. Unfortunately they have not yet reached the pets in the hold, so they are not optimistic about their survival :cry:: https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/jacksonville/woman-aboard-plane-that-skidded-into-river-says-landing-didnt-feel-right

There were also pets checked in the luggage compartment below. Bormann said they have not been rescued, and they likely didn't make it.

This statement was released by NAS Jacksonville this morning:

"Many people are asking about the pets aboard the aircraft that skidded off the runway into the St. Johns River last night at NAS Jacksonville. Unfortunately, they have not been retrieved yet due to safety issues with the aircraft. Our hearts and prayers go out to those pet owners during this terrible incident."
 
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exFWAOONW
Posts: 636
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 2:01 pm

Why would they attempt to land with a gusting tailwind? A big gust at the flare and a lot of runway is behind you.

One more link in the chain of events/Decisions that add up to a bad result.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
Planetalk
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:12 pm

Re: Plane crash in Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 2:17 pm

ual763 wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
It had been raining in the area at the time of the aircraft's approach so the runway was wet and had ponding water on it.


Imagine if American pilots had to fly in kind of conditions that are routine in the monsoon season in SE Asia. It'd be carnage. Those pilots out there must be damn good.

Having lived in Colombia a while, which is basically covered in monster cumulonimbus year round, and terrain that makes for some very interesting (visual only!) approaches a lot of pilots get nowhere near enough respect on this forum if they're not from the right country.


Meet Florida

Funny, you’re saying this, because most Colombian airline pilots train in Florida.


Please tell me about the mountains in Florida ;) Pilots there also get a nice 6 month window of balmy blue skies. As opposed to visuals into stormy mountain valleys year round. Those mountains are the same reason Bogotá to Medellín is a 25 minute flight, only 134 miles straight line but takes 10-12 hours on the road. I guess you could drive the length of Florida in that time.

Anyway I digress, glad we're not in agreement Colombian pilots are pretty damn good.
 
Etheereal
Posts: 321
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:44 am

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 2:22 pm

Jetty wrote:
With this incident included the last 8(!) civil aviation incidents causing death or hull loss were with Boeing planes. :shock: Doesn’t look good.

And the point is ... ?
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
ilovelamp
Posts: 296
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:45 am

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 2:25 pm

N766UA wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

A study was done a few years ago:

The 737NG has 0.27 hull losses per million departures

The A320 has 0.26 hull losses per million departures.

The numbers are very similar.

737 seems to have more runway overruns specifically. Previous one is WN in BUR in December. Would be interesting to look at that specific statistics


It’s my understanding that the 737, particularly the -700, has significantly better runway performance than the 320. Hence why you see them in EYW, for example. Total conjecture, but perhaps 737’s tend to operate from shorter runways more often than 320’s, hence an increased risk? Personally I think it’s all coincidence, but...


The 320 isn’t authorized for EYW at Delta. The 319 and 737-7 are the only ones.


ILL
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1068
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 2:36 pm

achmafooma wrote:
I'm curious how long pilots have to initiate a go-around...I usually hear about 'em when they miss the approach or aren't lined up properly or something, but once you're on the ground and you aren't slowing down fast enough, can you initiate a go-around at that point? Obviously it depends on your speed and how much runway you have ahead of you...but in a typical landing scenario, is there time to deploy the speed brakes and reversers, figure out that they aren't doing enough, and do a go around?

No. Once the reversers are out and/or any noticeable braking has occured you won't attempt to go around any more. Spoilers are afaik a bit more variable since these are usually automatically deployed on touchdown, can be stowed quickly and don't actually slow the aircraft much. You have a few seconds to press the TOGA button, e. g. if you bounce.

Re failed brakes; reverse thrust alone will eventually stop the plane but the landing distance will be far greater. Here's a report of a full brake failure on an Alitalia A321 that deccelerated to ~ 40 knots within ~ 2500 m (8200 ft): http://avherald.com/h?article=43e9ebf7 Slowing to a full stop took another couple 100 meters.
 
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AirKevin
Posts: 483
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:18 am

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 2:56 pm

achmafooma wrote:
Runway overruns seem to be (relatively) common, as air accidents go. I'm curious how long pilots have to initiate a go-around...I usually hear about 'em when they miss the approach or aren't lined up properly or something, but once you're on the ground and you aren't slowing down fast enough, can you initiate a go-around at that point? Obviously it depends on your speed and how much runway you have ahead of you...but in a typical landing scenario, is there time to deploy the speed brakes and reversers, figure out that they aren't doing enough, and do a go around?

Once the reversers are deployed, you're committed to the landing. If you were to attempt a go-around with the reversers deployed and for some reason, one of them didn't stow properly, things are going to get very messy very quickly.
Captain Kevin
 
greendot
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 3:29 pm

I'd be curious to see what the base was reporting in terms of RCAM, contamination amount, and depth of contamination. Being a Navy field, they might not even use RCAM. Furthermore, I'm curious to know exactly what performance charts the pilots used and if they downgraded it to include the possibility of pooled water on the runway. In my opinion, RCAM is still not as good as the USAF's RCR values along with its various contamination reporting requirements but it's definitely a step in the right direction while keeping it relatively simple. Most pilots are still baffled by RCAM though...
 
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Gonzalo
Posts: 1821
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Sat May 04, 2019 3:33 pm

bgm wrote:
Yet another 737 runway overrun. Why do these incidents always seem to be on that aircraft? Higher approach speeds vs other aircraft?


Simple, almost 11.000 737´s has been built through the different versions, it is the most prolific aircraft type in commercial aviation history.
A logical consequence is that they are involved in more incidents and accidents compared with other types, as you have more car wrecks involving Chevorlets and Fords compared to Infinity or Lexus.
The approach and landing speed of almost all 737´s is on average the same - or very close - to the speeds of all the other ( similar capacity and range ) models from the competition ( i.e. A320 family aircraft ). This kind of accidents are -99 per cent of the time- the final result you have after a bad choice from the flying crew that attemps to land and stop against the odds, and dismiss the most safe option/s of going around or divert to a field with better conditions at the time.... has nothing to do with the aircraft itself, no matter the type.

Rgds.
G.
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