greendot
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Mon May 06, 2019 4:02 pm

CanesFan wrote:
Potential 15 knot tailwind in a thunderstorm + wet/ungrooved runway + deferred T/R. I don't see how any part 121 pilot would think that's a good idea. Wow.


You'ld be surprised. Most operators will go right to the legal limits. The prevailing attitude is if it's legal, it's ok. The companies are ok with that because they know the real legal liability falls on the pilot to accept or reject it in real time. The airline will probably not be faulted and this will probably fall squarely on the pilot. The fact that a TR was MELed is something I disagree with personally. I far too often see aircraft with lists of MEL items. MEL items can be kept as inoperative for 3, 10, etc... days depending on the category of MEL. I think airlines are able to MEL far too many things for far too long. The problem is much deeper though... I often see multiple MEL writeups because the problem cannot be reproduced. So is maintenance really a glorified part swapping operation or do they have the ability to diagnose? Furthermore, pilots are reluctant to write up anything that "goes away" on its own. So personally, I've never been happy with how airplanes are maintained as a matter of systemic issues industry wide.

Oh yeah... and pilots have no legal protection for their choices.

Had this pilot chosen to divert, the company could use that against him later. If he's a "troublemaker" pilot, the company can use any excuse to fire him. A simple diversion will be second guessed and used to keep him on the corporation's radar. What we need is a law that prevents a pilot from being asked to come in to see the chief pilot for any decision made while on duty. This exists for fatigue calls but not for everything else. So who knows if this guy has a colored history and this time it influenced him not to divert or delay landing.
 
CanesFan
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:49 pm

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Mon May 06, 2019 4:10 pm

greendot wrote:
CanesFan wrote:
Potential 15 knot tailwind in a thunderstorm + wet/ungrooved runway + deferred T/R. I don't see how any part 121 pilot would think that's a good idea. Wow.


You'ld be surprised. Most operators will go right to the legal limits. The prevailing attitude is if it's legal, it's ok. The companies are ok with that because they know the real legal liability falls on the pilot to accept or reject it in real time. The airline will probably not be faulted and this will probably fall squarely on the pilot. The fact that a TR was MELed is something I disagree with personally. I far too often see aircraft with lists of MEL items. MEL items can be kept as inoperative for 3, 10, etc... days depending on the category of MEL. I think airlines are able to MEL far too many things for far too long. The problem is much deeper though... I often see multiple MEL writeups because the problem cannot be reproduced. So is maintenance really a glorified part swapping operation or do they have the ability to diagnose? Furthermore, pilots are reluctant to write up anything that "goes away" on its own. So personally, I've never been happy with how airplanes are maintained as a matter of systemic issues industry wide.

Oh yeah... and pilots have no legal protection for their choices.

Had this pilot chosen to divert, the company could use that against him later. If he's a "troublemaker" pilot, the company can use any excuse to fire him. A simple diversion will be second guessed and used to keep him on the corporation's radar. What we need is a law that prevents a pilot from being asked to come in to see the chief pilot for any decision made while on duty. This exists for fatigue calls but not for everything else. So who knows if this guy has a colored history and this time it influenced him not to divert or delay landing.


In and of itself, I don't have a problem with an MEL'ed T/R. It's when you combine the deferred reverser, the wet/ungrooved runway, and the ambient conditions, the hair on the back of my neck stands up. There's no way I would have accepted that approach under those circumstances. My union would have my back 100 percent in that case. Is Miami Air non-union? Edit: Looks like they are represented by the Teamsters.
 
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SamYeager2016
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:22 pm

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Mon May 06, 2019 5:29 pm

9w748capt wrote:
I see very little mention of the national origin of these pilots, or the country they trained in. I'm wondering why that would be? I know it's early and let's not jump to conclusions, but that certainly didn't happen in other threads. So why all of the sudden the restraint in this one?

Well we are talking about the good old US of A with its well trained pilots with not just hundreds of hours but thousands of hours. :sarcastic:
 
greendot
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Mon May 06, 2019 5:35 pm

CanesFan wrote:
greendot wrote:
CanesFan wrote:
Potential 15 knot tailwind in a thunderstorm + wet/ungrooved runway + deferred T/R. I don't see how any part 121 pilot would think that's a good idea. Wow.


You'ld be surprised. Most operators will go right to the legal limits. The prevailing attitude is if it's legal, it's ok. The companies are ok with that because they know the real legal liability falls on the pilot to accept or reject it in real time. The airline will probably not be faulted and this will probably fall squarely on the pilot. The fact that a TR was MELed is something I disagree with personally. I far too often see aircraft with lists of MEL items. MEL items can be kept as inoperative for 3, 10, etc... days depending on the category of MEL. I think airlines are able to MEL far too many things for far too long. The problem is much deeper though... I often see multiple MEL writeups because the problem cannot be reproduced. So is maintenance really a glorified part swapping operation or do they have the ability to diagnose? Furthermore, pilots are reluctant to write up anything that "goes away" on its own. So personally, I've never been happy with how airplanes are maintained as a matter of systemic issues industry wide.

Oh yeah... and pilots have no legal protection for their choices.

Had this pilot chosen to divert, the company could use that against him later. If he's a "troublemaker" pilot, the company can use any excuse to fire him. A simple diversion will be second guessed and used to keep him on the corporation's radar. What we need is a law that prevents a pilot from being asked to come in to see the chief pilot for any decision made while on duty. This exists for fatigue calls but not for everything else. So who knows if this guy has a colored history and this time it influenced him not to divert or delay landing.


In and of itself, I don't have a problem with an MEL'ed T/R. It's when you combine the deferred reverser, the wet/ungrooved runway, and the ambient conditions, the hair on the back of my neck stands up. There's no way I would have accepted that approach under those circumstances. My union would have my back 100 percent in that case. Is Miami Air non-union? Edit: Looks like they are represented by the Teamsters.


How would the union have your back? I assume they are ALPA? Normally they will let you get fired, then they will try to get you rehired.
 
greendot
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Mon May 06, 2019 5:45 pm

SamYeager2016 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
I see very little mention of the national origin of these pilots, or the country they trained in. I'm wondering why that would be? I know it's early and let's not jump to conclusions, but that certainly didn't happen in other threads. So why all of the sudden the restraint in this one?

Well we are talking about the good old US of A with its well trained pilots with not just hundreds of hours but thousands of hours. :sarcastic:


Hundreds of hours don't matter nearly as much as education. You can educate yourself via self-study, formal education, or exposure (what you call experience). In civil flying, there is no guarantee someone has 20,000 hrs and literally knows nothing about the physics of flight. That's why in the USA the FAA requires training at your airline about how to recover from a high altitude stall. Trivial stuff but most pilots don't know this stuff!!!
 
cwienck
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:01 pm

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Mon May 06, 2019 6:46 pm

Hey it's that P-8 guy again. The plane was in the same spot when I left work today.

As for the arresting gear, I don't think I've seen the gear in battery in a while on 10/28. Mostly it's 14/32 that has the gear up, and that runway is too short for any of us to use. Either way, rolling over the arresting gear has never been an issue at any speed for the P-8 (which is a significantly heavier 737 than the one in question). And no, the P-3 and P-8 DO NOT use the arresting gear for ANY reason. We don't have a hook or anything. It's installed for tactical jet aircraft recoveries only.

As for the non-grooved runway thing: Yes, they rebuilt the runway. And no, it wasn't grooved. We asked, they said "nah its sloped or something" and that was it. And don't ask how many potential hydroplaning issues we have had with 737s on this runway, because the answer is "not zero."
 
FF630
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Mon May 06, 2019 8:45 pm

Sounds like someone in the puzzle palace (Pentagon) made the decision not to grove the runway. That individual must have been clueless as to the typical semi tropical weather in the area. Thunderstorm season has just begun here. At least the P8 pilots are very well trained and know how to handle slick runways.
 
CanesFan
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:49 pm

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 12:04 am

greendot wrote:
CanesFan wrote:
greendot wrote:

You'ld be surprised. Most operators will go right to the legal limits. The prevailing attitude is if it's legal, it's ok. The companies are ok with that because they know the real legal liability falls on the pilot to accept or reject it in real time. The airline will probably not be faulted and this will probably fall squarely on the pilot. The fact that a TR was MELed is something I disagree with personally. I far too often see aircraft with lists of MEL items. MEL items can be kept as inoperative for 3, 10, etc... days depending on the category of MEL. I think airlines are able to MEL far too many things for far too long. The problem is much deeper though... I often see multiple MEL writeups because the problem cannot be reproduced. So is maintenance really a glorified part swapping operation or do they have the ability to diagnose? Furthermore, pilots are reluctant to write up anything that "goes away" on its own. So personally, I've never been happy with how airplanes are maintained as a matter of systemic issues industry wide.

Oh yeah... and pilots have no legal protection for their choices.

Had this pilot chosen to divert, the company could use that against him later. If he's a "troublemaker" pilot, the company can use any excuse to fire him. A simple diversion will be second guessed and used to keep him on the corporation's radar. What we need is a law that prevents a pilot from being asked to come in to see the chief pilot for any decision made while on duty. This exists for fatigue calls but not for everything else. So who knows if this guy has a colored history and this time it influenced him not to divert or delay landing.


In and of itself, I don't have a problem with an MEL'ed T/R. It's when you combine the deferred reverser, the wet/ungrooved runway, and the ambient conditions, the hair on the back of my neck stands up. There's no way I would have accepted that approach under those circumstances. My union would have my back 100 percent in that case. Is Miami Air non-union? Edit: Looks like they are represented by the Teamsters.


How would the union have your back? I assume they are ALPA? Normally they will let you get fired, then they will try to get you rehired.


APA, actually. Our union and training department both preach conservative decision-making. I would be more concerned about losing my job if I deviated from SOP and had an accident/incident.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 12:52 am

The main factor here isn’t tailwind, TRW overhead, MEL’d T/R, it’s the faulty risk analysis of continuing into NAS Jax. KJAX or NAS Mayport, if it had to USN were both nearby and having better weather. Or hold or stop short at KDAY, KMLB or KCOF.

No DO of an airline is going fire a captain for a properly executed diversion. The pressure to continue was entirely self-imposed by the operating crew.

GF
 
greendot
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 2:02 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The main factor here isn’t tailwind, TRW overhead, MEL’d T/R, it’s the faulty risk analysis of continuing into NAS Jax. KJAX or NAS Mayport, if it had to USN were both nearby and having better weather. Or hold or stop short at KDAY, KMLB or KCOF.

No DO of an airline is going fire a captain for a properly executed diversion. The pressure to continue was entirely self-imposed by the operating crew.

GF


Allegiant didn't pressure their pilots when they were having lots of maintenance problems? I seem to remember this was discovered through an investigative reporter doing an expose on a major maintstream media network.

Sure, the DO will always say they never exert pressure or push for unsafe practices - they even write beautifully written SOPs that make flying at > 5 knots crosswind into a dangerous activity :-) DO's don't usually get involved since it's well above their daily attention level. Usually pilots deal with scheduling people or occasionally chief pilots, which can be a mixed bag. A CP will set up all kinds of perjury traps to see if you change your story to any degree or if you weren't aware of some technicality. These are tools used by management to put pressure on pilots (the threat of things on your company record). So, I think new regulations are needed that provide more protections from any employment or disciplinary practices from the employer. Some operators are under a lot of pressure because their existence depends on performance, so the "norm" becomes less acceptable than the practices of the #1 legacy airline.

And yes... ultimately the pilots self-impose. The individual is always responsible. What is concerning is what they used as a rationale to perform the landing attempt. I'm sure they made a logical, formulaic decision. The question is: what inputs did they consider and/or discount?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 2:46 am

I’ve been both an AF DO, commander, an airline pilot, a 91/135 charter pilot, an MEC member and chief pilot at a large corporate flight department. Your characterization is not my experience or the manner I led in those positions. I, and every management pilot in my acquaintance, were the ones saying, “whoa, slow down.” Maybe I was lucky.

GF
 
greendot
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 3:51 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’ve been both an AF DO, commander, an airline pilot, a 91/135 charter pilot, an MEC member and chief pilot at a large corporate flight department. Your characterization is not my experience or the manner I led in those positions. I, and every management pilot in my acquaintance, were the ones saying, “whoa, slow down.” Maybe I was lucky.

GF


I've been / I am all those too.... I've seen some really bad operations. They do happen. A friend of mine told me that at a certain 121 carrier, pilots were being called in to the chief pilot's office for writing up discrepancies into the logbook. Evidently this stopped only because the FAA was alerted to the practice. I worked at one shady operation and I personally fought back at least 3 times, but I had my background to help me so nothing adverse ever happened to me. I was the one pushing safety whereas the company was operationally complacent. Others get punished in creative ways to include suspension, loss of pay, or termination. If you get on their radar, they'll find some parallel thing to hang you with. That's why I think pilots need legal protection from their employer.
 
MD80Ttail
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 4:30 am

SamYeager2016 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
I see very little mention of the national origin of these pilots, or the country they trained in. I'm wondering why that would be? I know it's early and let's not jump to conclusions, but that certainly didn't happen in other threads. So why all of the sudden the restraint in this one?

Well we are talking about the good old US of A with its well trained pilots with not just hundreds of hours but thousands of hours. :sarcastic:


All the more reason not to let kids with 150 hrs at the Controls. If a pilot with 1,000s of hrs can muck it up sometimes that’s even more proof insanely low times pilots shouldn’t be at the controls. A super low time pilot may be competent and educated but he / she can’t be experienced. It take hours to be experienced.

No one died. This is more of a runway excursion. Damage to the plane will classify it as an accident but it’s really just an unfortunate incident.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7852
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 6:09 am

MD80Ttail wrote:
No one died. This is more of a runway excursion. Damage to the plane will classify it as an accident but it’s really just an unfortunate incident.


Tell that to the people who lost their pets. Really insensitive. It's an accident, and the fact that no humans died is just a coincidence.
 
kalvado
Posts: 1878
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 7:15 am

MD80Ttail wrote:
SamYeager2016 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
I see very little mention of the national origin of these pilots, or the country they trained in. I'm wondering why that would be? I know it's early and let's not jump to conclusions, but that certainly didn't happen in other threads. So why all of the sudden the restraint in this one?

Well we are talking about the good old US of A with its well trained pilots with not just hundreds of hours but thousands of hours. :sarcastic:


All the more reason not to let kids with 150 hrs at the Controls. If a pilot with 1,000s of hrs can muck it up sometimes that’s even more proof insanely low times pilots shouldn’t be at the controls. A super low time pilot may be competent and educated but he / she can’t be experienced. It take hours to be experienced.

No one died. This is more of a runway excursion. Damage to the plane will classify it as an accident but it’s really just an unfortunate incident.

Great reasoning for going towards pilotless, though.
 
Avgeek21
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:44 am

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 7:37 am

How many hours you have on a 737 or total is irrelevant. It’s all about training and company ethos. If the Captain was PF he should have chosen to fly this leg, or taken control when the full situation became apparent. Preverably before TOD. Ar my company we run Boeing’s Onboard Performance Tool (OPT) Landing data for every landing. Every landing, even at home base. (TALPA) I’ve landed a few times with an MEL’d T/R Inop. It requires thourough planning and briefing before you even see the runway. And performance calculations are a big deal in this process. The 737 can wasily be landed on short runways even in marginal conditions. But use common sense, fly it as per FCOM and run the OPT.
 
THS214
Posts: 214
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 8:14 am

MD80Ttail wrote:
SamYeager2016 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
I see very little mention of the national origin of these pilots, or the country they trained in. I'm wondering why that would be? I know it's early and let's not jump to conclusions, but that certainly didn't happen in other threads. So why all of the sudden the restraint in this one?

Well we are talking about the good old US of A with its well trained pilots with not just hundreds of hours but thousands of hours. :sarcastic:


All the more reason not to let kids with 150 hrs at the Controls. If a pilot with 1,000s of hrs can muck it up sometimes that’s even more proof insanely low times pilots shouldn’t be at the controls. A super low time pilot may be competent and educated but he / she can’t be experienced. It take hours to be experienced.

No one died. This is more of a runway excursion. Damage to the plane will classify it as an accident but it’s really just an unfortunate incident.


Every pilot has started with 0 hours in their logbook. Most of them flew through their career without accidents. So what is your point? No pilots plane?
 
THS214
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 8:16 am

kalvado wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
SamYeager2016 wrote:
Well we are talking about the good old US of A with its well trained pilots with not just hundreds of hours but thousands of hours. :sarcastic:


All the more reason not to let kids with 150 hrs at the Controls. If a pilot with 1,000s of hrs can muck it up sometimes that’s even more proof insanely low times pilots shouldn’t be at the controls. A super low time pilot may be competent and educated but he / she can’t be experienced. It take hours to be experienced.

No one died. This is more of a runway excursion. Damage to the plane will classify it as an accident but it’s really just an unfortunate incident.

Great reasoning for going towards pilotless, though.


Kalvado

Same thinking but you were faster. :)
 
flybaby
Posts: 174
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 8:36 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The main factor here isn’t tailwind, TRW overhead, MEL’d T/R, it’s the faulty risk analysis of continuing into NAS Jax. KJAX or NAS Mayport, if it had to USN were both nearby and having better weather. Or hold or stop short at KDAY, KMLB or KCOF.

No DO of an airline is going fire a captain for a properly executed diversion. The pressure to continue was entirely self-imposed by the operating crew.

GF


KDAY?

What was the weather like at KVQQ?
 
User avatar
Veigar
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 8:58 am

wjcandee wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
No one died. This is more of a runway excursion. Damage to the plane will classify it as an accident but it’s really just an unfortunate incident.


Tell that to the people who lost their pets. Really insensitive. It's an accident, and the fact that no humans died is just a coincidence.


Sure it sucks, but I don't think people are particularly surprised at animals dying on aircraft. This happens a lot due to shock and heat anyways. Sounds dark but true.

As for the coincidence part of your post, how was it? Was it just a coincidence the plane didn't randomly explode after stopping in the water?

Simple answer, it was just a runway excursion.
 
kalvado
Posts: 1878
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 9:14 am

THS214 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:

All the more reason not to let kids with 150 hrs at the Controls. If a pilot with 1,000s of hrs can muck it up sometimes that’s even more proof insanely low times pilots shouldn’t be at the controls. A super low time pilot may be competent and educated but he / she can’t be experienced. It take hours to be experienced.

No one died. This is more of a runway excursion. Damage to the plane will classify it as an accident but it’s really just an unfortunate incident.

Great reasoning for going towards pilotless, though.


Kalvado

Same thinking but you were faster. :)

I was thinking about even more perverted ways if twisting experience argument. How would you like this one:
What is actually experience? Hours sitting bored in a cockpit, as some pilots report? Probably opposite.
We live in a world strongly fed by Hollywood "happy end" stories. The real experience is that it is not the case.
Crew in this, and many other crew related accidents probably have cut corners before, and made it fine. What is called "survivor bias" in statistics. They just assumed they can cut corner again and they will be ok.
It makes total sense to require at least captains to have that true experience. Nobody in left seat should get there without going through a crash, or at least reportable accident. @MD80Ttail, do you have one, or it just hours and gray hair which put you in the left seat?
 
kalvado
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Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 9:16 am

Veigar wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
No one died. This is more of a runway excursion. Damage to the plane will classify it as an accident but it’s really just an unfortunate incident.


Tell that to the people who lost their pets. Really insensitive. It's an accident, and the fact that no humans died is just a coincidence.


Sure it sucks, but I don't think people are particularly surprised at animals dying on aircraft. This happens a lot due to shock and heat anyways. Sounds dark but true.

As for the coincidence part of your post, how was it? Was it just a coincidence the plane didn't randomly explode after stopping in the water?

Simple answer, it was just a runway excursion.

What would happen if water was 15 feet deep I stead of 6?
 
bgm
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 9:19 am

Veigar wrote:
Sure it sucks, but I don't think people are particularly surprised at animals dying on aircraft. This happens a lot due to shock and heat anyways. Sounds dark but true.


Sure it sucks, but I don't think people are particularly surprised at people dying on aircraft. This happens a lot due to various medical conditions anyways. Sounds dark but true.

See how silly that sounds?

Also, I don't think there are many cases of pets dying from drowning due to the aircraft being submerged in water.
████ ███ █ ███████ ██ █ █████ ██ ████ [redacted]
 
User avatar
Veigar
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 9:26 am

bgm wrote:
Veigar wrote:
Sure it sucks, but I don't think people are particularly surprised at animals dying on aircraft. This happens a lot due to shock and heat anyways. Sounds dark but true.


Sure it sucks, but I don't think people are particularly surprised at people dying on aircraft. This happens a lot due to various medical conditions anyways. Sounds dark but true.

See how silly that sounds?

Also, I don't think there are many cases of pets dying from drowning due to the aircraft being submerged in water.



How many people have died in similar incidents like this where an aircraft overruns a runway? I'm sure there are, but usually people would be very surprised if there are confirmed fatalities on a runway excursion incident. Point being, you are significantly less likely to die in a runway excursion.

Also, I was making that point in reference to pets in specific, since usually humans do not die in shock endued accidents while on a plane / dying of heat stroke because you are stuffed in the cargo bay. Humans are also not put in pet carriers.
 
THS214
Posts: 214
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:01 pm

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 9:50 am

kalvado wrote:
THS214 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Great reasoning for going towards pilotless, though.


Kalvado

Same thinking but you were faster. :)

I was thinking about even more perverted ways if twisting experience argument. How would you like this one:
What is actually experience? Hours sitting bored in a cockpit, as some pilots report? Probably opposite.
We live in a world strongly fed by Hollywood "happy end" stories. The real experience is that it is not the case.
Crew in this, and many other crew related accidents probably have cut corners before, and made it fine. What is called "survivor bias" in statistics. They just assumed they can cut corner again and they will be ok.
It makes total sense to require at least captains to have that true experience. Nobody in left seat should get there without going through a crash, or at least reportable accident. @MD80Ttail, do you have one, or it just hours and gray hair which put you in the left seat?


Your not thinking perverting. Your actually putting your brain cells working, something I admire. Well, trying to answer your questions.

1. What is actually experience? Let me put it this way. Equally qualified pilots... one that has failed and crashed, the other one never crashed? Damn you already answered this one!
2. Experience? Hours or flights? C152 hours and landings when flying B777?
2. Cutting corners? Well this is were no-one has experience. Or have you ever heard a drunk driver saying... this was my first time and I got caught. So no-one has ever been driving when drunk but once. The more you cut corners and get away with it, the more you continue. Except you cut more corners until you get caught, or kill yourself.
 
THS214
Posts: 214
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:01 pm

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 9:53 am

kalvado wrote:
Veigar wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

Tell that to the people who lost their pets. Really insensitive. It's an accident, and the fact that no humans died is just a coincidence.


Sure it sucks, but I don't think people are particularly surprised at animals dying on aircraft. This happens a lot due to shock and heat anyways. Sounds dark but true.

As for the coincidence part of your post, how was it? Was it just a coincidence the plane didn't randomly explode after stopping in the water?

Simple answer, it was just a runway excursion.

What would happen if water was 15 feet deep I stead of 6?


It would have been a submarine?
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 12:14 pm

THS214 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
What would happen if water was 15 feet deep I stead of 6?

It would have been a submarine?

I guess it must be time to drag this photo out of the archives....

Image
As usual, thx & credit to Wikipedia
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
kalvado
Posts: 1878
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 12:22 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
THS214 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
What would happen if water was 15 feet deep I stead of 6?

It would have been a submarine?

I guess it must be time to drag this photo out of the archives....

Image
As usual, thx & credit to Wikipedia

Yep, but in case case of this crash we have a plane sitting well deeper in the water even in first pictures, and a flooded hold.
If there was belly damage - more likely in case of overrun than straight water landing - thing could go a bit differently.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 2:12 pm

flybaby wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The main factor here isn’t tailwind, TRW overhead, MEL’d T/R, it’s the faulty risk analysis of continuing into NAS Jax. KJAX or NAS Mayport, if it had to USN were both nearby and having better weather. Or hold or stop short at KDAY, KMLB or KCOF.

No DO of an airline is going fire a captain for a properly executed diversion. The pressure to continue was entirely self-imposed by the operating crew.

GF


KDAY?

What was the weather like at KVQQ?


I was thinking Daytona. If that’s Mayport, the radar image I saw, it was clear there.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 4:04 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
I guess it must be time to drag this photo out of the archives....

Image
As usual, thx & credit to Wikipedia
kalvado wrote:
Yep, but in case case of this crash we have a plane sitting well deeper in the water even in first pictures, and a flooded hold.

If you've got pictures showing the Jacksonville 737 just seconds after it hit the water, I would love to see them.

If the earliest picture you have got is even five minutes later, then we are talking about a different scenario. Most of what I have seen were clearly taken later than that.

e.g. I can find alternative photos of US 1549 taken a short while after the ditching, showing it getting lower and lower in the water until pretty much only the tail is visible....

kalvado wrote:
If there was belly damage - more likely in case of overrun than straight water landing - thing could go a bit differently.
Don't you ever give up?
If we assume that the crew managed at least some braking action, it is quite likely they only overran the runway at 50 kts or less, with the MLG still intact.
This wouldn't be the first time a 737 slid off the runway at walking pace.
They may even have entered the water with the MLG still attached; I haven't seen any info suggesting it was left behind on the runway. (If I've missed it, shoot me!)

But above all else, do not underestimate the power of water. If you hit it hard, it hits you right back just as hard. :box:

In Sully's case they hit the water at full landing speed, and in the process the left engine was ripped off the wing (and recovered later from the riverbed.)

So that leaves us with the same two possibilities we had at the beginning; this 737 might have floated for a while, or it might not.
Either way, before too long it would have ended up resting on the mud at the bottom.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 5:05 pm

Not sure if this has been asked yet. In an incident like this are the pilots not allowed to fly again until the accident is fully investigated?
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 5:25 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Not sure if this has been asked yet. In an incident like this are the pilots not allowed to fly again until the accident is fully investigated?


I would imagine even if they were found to be not at any fault, they would surely be allowed generous time off for counseling and trauma evaluations.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
flybaby
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 5:50 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
flybaby wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The main factor here isn’t tailwind, TRW overhead, MEL’d T/R, it’s the faulty risk analysis of continuing into NAS Jax. KJAX or NAS Mayport, if it had to USN were both nearby and having better weather. Or hold or stop short at KDAY, KMLB or KCOF.

No DO of an airline is going fire a captain for a properly executed diversion. The pressure to continue was entirely self-imposed by the operating crew.

GF


KDAY?

What was the weather like at KVQQ?


I was thinking Daytona. If that’s Mayport, the radar image I saw, it was clear there.


Ah, gotcha. KDAY is Dayton, OH (Daytona is KDAB).

KVQQ is Cecil Field, located a few miles west of NAS JAX. Sometimes when the Navy has issues it sends aircraft to Cecil Field. That’s where NAS JAX planes operated from during that long-term runway shutdown for renovations at NAS JAX a few years ago.
 
MD80Ttail
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 6:33 pm

wjcandee wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
No one died. This is more of a runway excursion. Damage to the plane will classify it as an accident but it’s really just an unfortunate incident.


Tell that to the people who lost their pets. Really insensitive. It's an accident, and the fact that no humans died is just a coincidence.


I’m sure the people know they and their loved ones are safe and sound and alive. Animals are not people. No one died. I love my pair of German Shepherds and think of them as my kids and they even sleep in our bed if so inclined. They even have a “pet portal” and can paw it and connect with me via my phone on a video and audio chat when I’m gone. I have a button I push and they get a dispensed bone. So I love animals. One of the pair is my wife’s service dog. So ya. They are family. But they still are animals. As sad as a loss of a pet is it’s still not a human life and the value equation isn’t the same. I’m sorry they died. Take comfort in the fact I’ve read drowning is actually peaceful once the first ingestion of water fills the lungs and wish the families the best. Still, no humans died. Sad the animals perished. Happy the humans lived. So this is a no loss of human life accident. Flame me that’s fine. I love all animals and donate a rather large amount to Paul Watson’s Sea Shepherd Society fo save whales and marine life. I’ll get flamed on here For this comment but you can convince me an animal life is equal to or greater than a human life.
 
MD80Ttail
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 6:35 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Not sure if this has been asked yet. In an incident like this are the pilots not allowed to fly again until the accident is fully investigated?



Their fault or not they will most likely be retrained and requalify and be back to flying. Same thing happened to US5050 pilots and the FO in the AA M80 accident and so many others. Same as the pilots in the World Dc10 BOS incident.
 
MD80Ttail
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 7:21 pm

THS214 wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
SamYeager2016 wrote:
Well we are talking about the good old US of A with its well trained pilots with not just hundreds of hours but thousands of hours. :sarcastic:


All the more reason not to let kids with 150 hrs at the Controls. If a pilot with 1,000s of hrs can muck it up sometimes that’s even more proof insanely low times pilots shouldn’t be at the controls. A super low time pilot may be competent and educated but he / she can’t be experienced. It take hours to be experienced.

No one died. This is more of a runway excursion. Damage to the plane will classify it as an accident but it’s really just an unfortunate incident.


Every pilot has started with 0 hours in their logbook. Most of them flew through their career without accidents. So what is your point? No pilots plane?


I don’t get the vehement defense of 150 hr total time pilots at the controls of mainline schedule pax planes. Your argument is spurious all pilots start with zero hours. While true you are missing the point.

Let me try and explain it differently. Let’s say you want to be a race car driver like NASCAR. You don’t wake up one day, take a 100 or 150 hour race driving course (they do have those btw) and go enter the Daytona 500 after done. You start at lower levels. At junior and rookies series. You build experience. You build time in the car. You try things out. You learn what works and doesn’t. You learn how a car feels in a lower series before it steps out on you and spins. You learn how hot temperatures and racing at tacks aft different elevations change the handling of the car. You progressively move up to bigger cars, more horsepower, faster cars as your skills and experience builds. You gain seat time. Then you move up to the next level as your prove yourself capable of handling more speed, more power and challenges. Sure your first time in the car at a new level is your your first time but you have thousands of laps of experience and thousands of hours of practice you can apply to a more challenging situation.

Sure you can be super smart...brilliant even. You can read books and take comprehensive, immersive classes about understeer and oversteer and all of the things NASCAR drivers need to know. Sure you can practice in a simulator. Sure you can go down to Daytona and strap in a race car with an experienced driver and in tandem take some hot laps at speed. Does that mean you are ready to be at the wheel for the Daytona 500? I think not.

Why?

You need to prove yourself, you need experience. Could you maybe enter a race after a class and a few tandem laps. Sure. Maybe you won’t even wreck and cross the finish line running. Can you really say afterwards you were totally prepared without a lot of prior experience for the race? Can you say you were as good as the other drivers like a Dale Earnhardt, JR or Chase or Bill Elliott with with all of their experiences in racing they have to draw from and apply to their book knowledge and skills? I think not.

So let’s look at putting a kid say in his 20s in the right seat of a B737 or A320 or B767 or 777 whatever. He or she is in their 20s. They don’t even have many life experiences yet. Let alone experiences flying in a multitude of weather and situations. They have gone from single seat or twin engine piston to flying from major airports with 150-300 people they are responsible for all in 150 total hours??

Now you can justify it by saying well it’s been done and usually it’s fine. Sure has and Flying is super safe. I guess it’s valid argument. The facts prove it to an extent. The only reason the facts prove it is because flying is so safe and so automated. Almost never does anything bad happen. Hell, the airlines don’t even want pilots to touch the controls really. So you get your statistics that make it look just fine, not because it really is but because 99.999 percent of the time everything works as it should.

If we are honest and really looked at it there is no way to say a pilot of a 737 or mainline plane has as much experience to draw from at 150 or 200 hrs total time than a guy or gal that has flown thousands of hours total. We can make one off arguments. We can Cite accidents where very experienced pilots screwed up and did something stupid. To me that’s all the more reason to want experience in the cockpit. If a high or higher time pilot can screw up then imagine the opportunities for an insanely low time pilot. My fav response is well I rather have a competent pilot with 150 hours than an idiot with 6,000. Hell yes. Me too. So would I. Are we insane to want to have a 6,000hr incompetent pilot in the cockpit??. We should look at why that sometimes happens. Is it because of affirmative action hires, privacy laws for mental health problems, lack of oversight or background checks?? Sure I’d rather fly with a 100hr sober competent pilot than a drunk 6,000hr pilot. We should not, however use a statement like that to justify the 150hr guy. We should say what the heck is wrong we have an incompetent drunk 6,000hr guy. Shame on us for letting him have 6,000hrs to try and kill someone. The argument people make the 150 hr guy is somehow safe is the same reason a 6,000hr idiot hasn’t killed someone yet. Don’t use the fact to justify the low time guy.

Also I see arguments..spurious again....well every 737 pilot or whatever has zero hours on type then the started. Yes. Of course. But they should have prior experiences they can draw from flying other types of planes. I cannot see any real and rational way to justify a pilot with a total lifetime number of hours flown at say 150-250-300 where they have any business being in the cockpit of a mainline jet as their FIRST job and responsibility out of flight school. I don’t care how good the flight school or how immersive. You cannot inject experiences and circumstances into someone’s brain. They have to learn and experience themselves and they shouldn’t be doing that with 100(s) of passengers on board.

Again make all the one off arguments you want. Doesn’t change the fact it is better to have experienced pilots in the cockpit. Do we honestly think a 150hr total time pilot..total time as in just out of flight school that’s every minute he has ever flown anything that flys...at 159 hours and maybe this person is brilliant. The equivalent of Picasso in the cockpit....do we really think and expect they are able to cope with Sully’s circumstances? Al Haynes and UA232? Aloha’s 737 convertible. What about the AS MD80. Those pilots had Tremendous experience but still crashed yes. But they flew a damn MD80 upside down for several minutes and recovered. They stayed calm. Do we expect a 150hr TOTAL TIME pilot to be able to successfully handfly a damaged plane upside down that wasn’t even meant to fly upside down? What about the NW 747 what had a massive rudder failure over the pacific. Those guys and I’ve watched their interviews had a couple hundred years of experience between them and they struggled hard. They said they had no procedures for this type of failure. They had to use their tremendous experience to safely land a fully loaded 747 in dire circumstances. The AC767 glider, Japan Air 747 w basically no tail bc is fell off. Only the experience of those pilots kept the planes in the air and in most of those crashes saved lives. You are on board. You want a guy w a total of 150 hrs or a guy with over 18,000hrs in the NW case? How good do you feel about his book smarts in this situation and a few hrs sim time?

You need a heart transplant. Do you want a new surgeon just out of school. Look buddy, I can do your heart transplant. I went to the best school, Harvard or whatever, I’ve helped do a few and even done a couple on my own. I graduated top of my class. Been published. Genius IQ. Look I’ve got 200hrs of heart transplant experience. Ya each procedure is a 10 hr deal but I’ve done 20. Or do you want the guy that’s done 200 heart transplants and has 2,000 hrs of swapping hearts out successfully with a proven track record.

I mean truthfully we don’t even let people with 209 hrs of total driving time drive busses and semi trucks yet you are ok with putting them in a mainline jet with hundreds of pax?

I want a proven pilot in the cockpit. Someone that has a body of work done successfully and time tested. You can’t be time tested with 209hrs total time.

There are even folks that won’t buy a car the first year it comes out as a new model. Why? They want the new model to prove itself. Yet people argue with a straight face about putting a new pilot in a cockpit with almost no hrs of total time. SMH

Past performance is not a guarantee of future results. But it’s a pretty darn good indicator.
 
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Moose135
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 8:13 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
I don’t get the vehement defense of 150 hr total time pilots at the controls of mainline schedule pax planes. Your argument is spurious all pilots start with zero hours. While true you are missing the point.


And I don't get your repeated rants about pilot time either. You have posted the same thing in multiple threads - do we have any idea who were flying this plane, what their total hours were, and what roll that that may have played in the incident? Remember, it wasn't all that long ago that it was perfectly legal for a 250hour pilot to fly in the right seat of a commercial airliner, and I don't recall airplanes dropping like flies because of that. Don't forget, the rule that changed that came from a crash where both pilots had significantly more than 1,500 hours each.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
wjcandee
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 9:22 pm

TTail: My point about the pets is that the accident wasn't consequence-free and should be treated as the very, very serious incident that it was. No loss of human life was a coincidence.

As to your pilot-time post, very fine job of refuting the one-off arguments that always come up here. I would add to the incidents that you cite a simple one: the Ameristar runway overrun with the college basketball team on board. The PF was doing a captain upgrade on the MD80 and did not have a lot of time in type. But he had like 6000 hours or something in the DC9. The airline's chief pilot was in the right seat. The PF aborted above V1 and the thing went off the end. The chief pilot was saying "Dammit don't abort above V1 like that. F&^@!", and almost tried to override him but stayed in his lane, as the Company's rules required. Turns out that the PF knew the moment he pulled back on the yoke that the thing wasn't going to fly, and instantaneously checked himself by pulling back more, then simply announced "Abort" and did the abort procedure. His feel for the aircraft saved his life. Had he screwed around even another 5 seconds, knowing he was above V1 and second-guessing himself, they likely all would have died. The feel he had for that series of aircraft, his thousands of hours in type, let him know instantly that the abort was the right move. As they were going off the end, he said to the CP, "It wasn't going to fly." He told the NTSB that it felt like there was a stack of bricks on the nose. And two years later, the NTSB lauded his decision glowingly, having done all sorts of engineering analysis as to what had happened mechanically and why, and reached the conclusion that indisputably the thing would not have flown. He only had a second to make that call -- one that he knew should be made only in the very rarest of circumstances -- and he did, confidently. And that's what experience brings to the table.
 
jaxfss
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 10:43 pm

Just saw on WJXT ch4 that the A/C was loaded onto a barge. Two slings were placed under the plane and it was lifted up by two large cranes, a barge was placed under the plane and it was lowered. It was moved to an area south of the runway where it will remain the night. Tomorrow it will be moved under the Buckman Bridge which should be fun to watch to Green Cove Springs about 18 miles south of NIP where there is a large marina that was used to store old naval vessels. The CVR has been recovered. WJXT also had video of NTSB personnel going through the cabin checking seat back and tray tables.
 
osprey12
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Tue May 07, 2019 11:00 pm

Audio with JAX Approach from the local news
https://youtu.be/QFvHATd1J2I
 
MJackson
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Wed May 08, 2019 11:39 am

Lifted out of the water Tuesday Afternoon, and starting the journey down the St. John's River Wednesday Morning.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/photos/photos-miami-air-plane-that-skidded-off-jacksonville-runway-moves-down-st-johns-river-on-barge/947330489

There are a couple of photos from different angles. Need to use the Grid View to navigate between them.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Plane crash in Jacksonville

Wed May 08, 2019 2:22 pm

Planetalk wrote:
ual763 wrote:
Planetalk wrote:

Imagine if American pilots had to fly in kind of conditions that are routine in the monsoon season in SE Asia. It'd be carnage. Those pilots out there must be damn good.

Having lived in Colombia a while, which is basically covered in monster cumulonimbus year round, and terrain that makes for some very interesting (visual only!) approaches a lot of pilots get nowhere near enough respect on this forum if they're not from the right country.


Meet Florida

Funny, you’re saying this, because most Colombian airline pilots train in Florida.


Please tell me about the mountains in Florida ;) Pilots there also get a nice 6 month window of balmy blue skies. As opposed to visuals into stormy mountain valleys year round. Those mountains are the same reason Bogotá to Medellín is a 25 minute flight, only 134 miles straight line but takes 10-12 hours on the road. I guess you could drive the length of Florida in that time.

Anyway I digress, glad we're not in agreement Colombian pilots are pretty damn good.

Space Mountain, Mount Everest. That mountain the built hogwarts on.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
greendot
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Wed May 08, 2019 7:12 pm

Moose135 wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
Remember, it wasn't all that long ago that it was perfectly legal for a 250hour pilot to fly in the right seat of a commercial airliner, and I don't recall airplanes dropping like flies because of that.


You may not get airplanes dropping like flies, but you will end up with lots of incidents that will never reach the public because they get hidden using the FAA's SMS program. The general public only gets to hear about incidents that trigger large scale investigations (e.g. NTSB). You're never going to hear about all the other problems caused by 250 hr wonders. As a Captain myself, and former USAF instructor, I don't like flying with these new guys because I have to work 10 times harder and you don't get legal protection nor get paid more for being an instructor. A low time pilot can actually suck your SA and be worse than having no one in the seat. If they say something wrong, it takes mental time and energy to disprove them because at first you assume they are correct about things. Eventually this will erode your response time and proper decision making to actual problems.

I'm not a fan of measuring pilot skill and knowledge by hours alone, but if I did have to nail down numbers, I'd say 1500 hrs is not nearly enough to be responsible for > 9 lives. I think pilots need significantly more education and training. Right now all air carriers are required to do high altitude stall training because most civil pilots keep screwing it up. Too many pilots are still "powering through stalls" because they don't understand the fundamental physics involved. Keep in mind, this problem exists with pilots with thousands of hours. Could you imagine how bad it would be with 250 hr wonders?
 
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litz
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Wed May 08, 2019 7:39 pm

The NTSB B-roll shows a sizeable rock berm at the water's edge ... and the airplane plowed right through/over it ...

Safe to say, not much of the underside probably withstood that very well.

The pictures of the recovery onto the barge don't seem to show any kind of intact landing gear (not surprising after hitting those rocks)
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Thu May 09, 2019 12:17 am

Any 737 pilot here: does the FMS PERF page do the speeds and corrections for dry, wet and contaminated runways or do you to refer to paper or iPad device for performance? Point being, hows data done and could the crew skipped over it in the change in runway?



Gf
 
CanesFan
Posts: 151
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Thu May 09, 2019 12:30 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Any 737 pilot here: does the FMS PERF page do the speeds and corrections for dry, wet and contaminated runways or do you to refer to paper or iPad device for performance? Point being, hows data done and could the crew skipped over it in the change in runway?



Gf


The FMC will give you Takeoff speeds for dry, wet, and wet/skid resistant, but not under those specified conditions for landing distance data. It will give approach speeds based on weight only. At AA we use an iPad landing app for landing distance calculations for short and other than wet/braking action good. In the absence of that we can get data from dispatch and also our manual.
 
impilot
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Thu May 09, 2019 3:02 am

greendot wrote:
Moose135 wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
Remember, it wasn't all that long ago that it was perfectly legal for a 250hour pilot to fly in the right seat of a commercial airliner, and I don't recall airplanes dropping like flies because of that.


You may not get airplanes dropping like flies, but you will end up with lots of incidents that will never reach the public because they get hidden using the FAA's SMS program. The general public only gets to hear about incidents that trigger large scale investigations (e.g. NTSB). You're never going to hear about all the other problems caused by 250 hr wonders. As a Captain myself, and former USAF instructor, I don't like flying with these new guys because I have to work 10 times harder and you don't get legal protection nor get paid more for being an instructor. A low time pilot can actually suck your SA and be worse than having no one in the seat. If they say something wrong, it takes mental time and energy to disprove them because at first you assume they are correct about things. Eventually this will erode your response time and proper decision making to actual problems.

I'm not a fan of measuring pilot skill and knowledge by hours alone, but if I did have to nail down numbers, I'd say 1500 hrs is not nearly enough to be responsible for > 9 lives. I think pilots need significantly more education and training. Right now all air carriers are required to do high altitude stall training because most civil pilots keep screwing it up. Too many pilots are still "powering through stalls" because they don't understand the fundamental physics involved. Keep in mind, this problem exists with pilots with thousands of hours. Could you imagine how bad it would be with 250 hr wonders?

Whoa there. Plenty of mil guys screw it up both in the airlines and in the military. Better check that mil ego you got. It’s dangerous.

Edit: if “most civil guys keep screwing it up” we’d see a ton of high altitude stalls. We see a few a year, but enough to make it a special emphasis item.
 
greendot
Posts: 214
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Re: Miami Air 737 runway overrun into river at NAS Jacksonville

Thu May 09, 2019 7:05 am

impilot wrote:
greendot wrote:
Moose135 wrote:


You may not get airplanes dropping like flies, but you will end up with lots of incidents that will never reach the public because they get hidden using the FAA's SMS program. The general public only gets to hear about incidents that trigger large scale investigations (e.g. NTSB). You're never going to hear about all the other problems caused by 250 hr wonders. As a Captain myself, and former USAF instructor, I don't like flying with these new guys because I have to work 10 times harder and you don't get legal protection nor get paid more for being an instructor. A low time pilot can actually suck your SA and be worse than having no one in the seat. If they say something wrong, it takes mental time and energy to disprove them because at first you assume they are correct about things. Eventually this will erode your response time and proper decision making to actual problems.

I'm not a fan of measuring pilot skill and knowledge by hours alone, but if I did have to nail down numbers, I'd say 1500 hrs is not nearly enough to be responsible for > 9 lives. I think pilots need significantly more education and training. Right now all air carriers are required to do high altitude stall training because most civil pilots keep screwing it up. Too many pilots are still "powering through stalls" because they don't understand the fundamental physics involved. Keep in mind, this problem exists with pilots with thousands of hours. Could you imagine how bad it would be with 250 hr wonders?

Whoa there. Plenty of mil guys screw it up both in the airlines and in the military. Better check that mil ego you got. It’s dangerous.

Edit: if “most civil guys keep screwing it up” we’d see a ton of high altitude stalls. We see a few a year, but enough to make it a special emphasis item.


I'm specifically saying that because the FAA is requiring it, who only has civil jurisdiction.

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