c933103
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:19 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:
It is so easy for us to sit at home or in the office on airliners.net in our safe environment and criticise people in an evacuation taking their hand luggage with them. These people have just gone from "normal" to a major traumatising, life threatening event in seconds and survival instincts kick in. Part of those survival instincts are to get yourself and your belongings to safety and back to "normal" as soon as possible.
I would bet if questioned later they do not even remember collecting their carry-on.
This will almost certainly be a once in a lifetime event for those involved and threatening passengers with legal action will make no difference at all. We have seen it happen repeatedly in the past and will see it happen in the future unless pax are physically seperated from their belongings.


If someone dies due to my actions, and it wasn't intentional, it is still manslaughter. There is no "we weren't thinking" involved. This is why the crew emphasizes that you should pay attention to the safety video/instruction and read the seat back.

While I am sure it was all overwhelming and it wasn't their intent, but they do say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

What if the action is not just not intentional but also out of your control? As the Russian report linked about said, in such extreme situation, behavior of human are mechanical and it would be asking too much for people to think of the consequences because conducting their action because that is not how our brain work.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
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shamrock350
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:20 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Will the SSJ be grounded as a temporary precaution whilst accident investigators do their work ?


Why? So far there's nothing to suggest this incident is related to the aircraft itself nor has there been any recent crashes of similar nature.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:21 pm

Airport says landing started plane fire

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/russia-air ... -1.4408900
 
Blankbarcode
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:26 pm

Video is surfacing showing a bounced landing caused the fire
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:27 pm

Blerg wrote:
spacecookie wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:
It is so easy for us to sit at home or in the office on airliners.net in our safe environment and criticise people in an evacuation taking their hand luggage with them. These people have just gone from "normal" to a major traumatising, life threatening event in seconds and survival instincts kick in. Part of those survival instincts are to get yourself and your belongings to safety and back to "normal" as soon as possible.
I would bet if questioned later they do not even remember collecting their carry-on.
This will almost certainly be a once in a lifetime event for those involved and threatening passengers with legal action will make no difference at all. We have seen it happen repeatedly in the past and will see it happen in the future unless pax are physically seperated from their belongings.

No sir
Just a dump person thinks about luggage if a plane is on fire.
I could not care less about material stuff if someone can got hurt


I usually travel with a business bag or a backpack which I rarely put in the overhead compartment, usually it's between my legs or under the seat in front of me. So in an emergency I would pull it up and leave the plane. Someone like you would attack me for holding up the line while in reality that's not the case. Maybe we shouldn't rush to judgement and to attack people just like that.


Why would someone attack you if you weren’t holding up the line? The point is you have children scorched in back because someone wants to mindlessly grab their belongings. You’d let the kid fry I guess - others might step up and get things moving. That action might even save the life of the person grabbing their luggage.

giopan1975 wrote:
https://twitter.com/KFM936/status/1125121672212828162


Now superimpose people grabbing their bags out of the overhead bin, then add in the person behind them patiently waiting versus taking action.
Last edited by PlanesNTrains on Sun May 05, 2019 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:27 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
GO AROUND, dammit....
Don't try to save the landing, push the trottles.

Unless of course there was some sort of control problem that caused the hard landing in the first place, and that makes a controlled go around doubtful.
Perhaps the video is sped up but they seem to be pretty fast. The aircraft starts in the video with a slight nose up attitude, lowers the nose, bounces, and then touches down hard. Either the pilot had no idea what he's doing or there was some external influence to this.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:30 pm

Blankbarcode wrote:
Video is surfacing showing a bounced landing caused the fire


Caused or helped by the raising speed? In the last 16 sec. altitude decreased 150ft while spreed grew 7 kts to 148, as per the graph provided by flightradar:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#20671283
 
c933103
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:34 pm

https://lenta.ru/news/2019/05/05/morde/
Some of the dead bodies remain inside the aircraft are so badly burnt that visual identification of their identity is not possible and DNA analysis will be needed.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
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andrefranca
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:36 pm

"At least 13 killed on Aeroflot jet" according to BBC

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48171392
Andre F. :blockhead:
 
rbavfan
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:38 pm

c933103 wrote:
https://www.interfax.ru/moscow/660212
According to Russian report, the evacuation was rather quick, but some passengers trying to take their personal belonging from luggage rack have made it difficult for passengers at the back to evacuate and thus caused their death.


And they are on video & in Russia. Maybe if they get charged for criminal neglect others will think before grabbing their bags & killing someone over crap you can replace.Has happened on too many evacs now Including AA 767 on fire. Time for heads to role on these self centered self absorbed jerks. And yes I cleaned this up.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:44 pm

The landing filmed from outside. It's no wonder the jet erupted in flame: https://twitter.com/bazabazon/status/11 ... 7598651393
Last edited by SpaceshipDC10 on Sun May 05, 2019 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
SocalApproach
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:45 pm

I am amazed that anyone was able to walk away from that. I do not know much about the superjet but I guess I will find out very soon
 
c933103
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:46 pm

https://www.gazeta.ru/social/2019/05/05/12339583.shtml
The Russian site claim that according to latest information only 37 people out of 78 on board are confirmed survive which mean there are 41 death
Also the site reported that they are not planning to ban the aircraft because of the accident in the near future
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
edu2703
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:47 pm

Death toll rises to 41, according to Russia's Investigative Committee
 
SocalApproach
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:47 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
The landing filmed from outside. It's no wonder the jet erupted in flame: https://twitter.com/bazabazon/status/11 ... 7598651393


I have seen comments praising the crew for getting it down. That video literally looks like they screwed up the landing to cause the impact/fire. That landing looks completely out of control. Obviously I do not know much of the details as there could have been a fire on board but that video makes me question that
Last edited by SocalApproach on Sun May 05, 2019 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
VeeCee
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:48 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:
It is so easy for us to sit at home or in the office on airliners.net in our safe environment and criticise people in an evacuation taking their hand luggage with them. These people have just gone from "normal" to a major traumatising, life threatening event in seconds and survival instincts kick in. Part of those survival instincts are to get yourself and your belongings to safety and back to "normal" as soon as possible.
I would bet if questioned later they do not even remember collecting their carry-on.
This will almost certainly be a once in a lifetime event for those involved and threatening passengers with legal action will make no difference at all. We have seen it happen repeatedly in the past and will see it happen in the future unless pax are physically seperated from their belongings.


If someone dies due to my actions, and it wasn't intentional, it is still manslaughter. There is no "we weren't thinking" involved. This is why the crew emphasizes that you should pay attention to the safety video/instruction and read the seat back.

While I am sure it was all overwhelming and it wasn't their intent, but they do say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.


Are you suggesting every case of pilot error should result in criminal prosecution?

Because they receive much more training than a passenger.

If the pilot forced the landing/bounce unnecessarily, the pilot is more at fault than a panicky passenger.
 
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fallap
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:48 pm

At least the survivors managed to walk away with their personal belongings...
Last edited by fallap on Sun May 05, 2019 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TheOldDude
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:49 pm

TexStones wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:
It is so easy for us to sit at home or in the office on airliners.net in our safe environment and criticise people in an evacuation taking their hand luggage with them.


I wholeheartedly agree with you. However, this incident shows that this behavior may lead to additional endangerment or loss of life. How can we prevent this behavior?

The solution is actually pretty simple: lock the overhead compartments during takeoff and landing. The tech probably already exists, and while it would be expensive to implement it would certainly help save lives in situations such as this.


You asked a good question. The only way to ensure that no one takes hand luggage with them is not to allow the luggage on board. I suspect that society at large will not want that solution, and will be willing to take the risk of a higher death toll in exchange for greater convenience.
 
LAXBUR
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:49 pm

Obviously a tragic incident.

However, could people stop posting the same links, videos, and headlines? I know you want to seem cool coming in the with the “scoop” but these threads become so bloated. That doesn’t even include all the “expert” opinions. I guess that’s fine since this is a discussion board. Folks are posting videos and headlines that were only one page prior.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:51 pm

SocalApproach wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
The landing filmed from outside. It's no wonder the jet erupted in flame: https://twitter.com/bazabazon/status/11 ... 7598651393


I have seen comments praising the crew for getting it down. That video literally looks like they screwed up the landing to cause the impact/fire


If there was anything not working properly on board, this might explain the difficulty to land.
 
VeeCee
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:52 pm

TheOldDude wrote:
TexStones wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:
It is so easy for us to sit at home or in the office on airliners.net in our safe environment and criticise people in an evacuation taking their hand luggage with them.


I wholeheartedly agree with you. However, this incident shows that this behavior may lead to additional endangerment or loss of life. How can we prevent this behavior?

The solution is actually pretty simple: lock the overhead compartments during takeoff and landing. The tech probably already exists, and while it would be expensive to implement it would certainly help save lives in situations such as this.


You asked a good question. The only way to ensure that no one takes hand luggage with them is not to allow the luggage on board. I suspect that society at large will not want that solution, and will be willing to take the risk of a higher death toll in exchange for greater convenience.


I wonder if budget airlines that charge for overhead bags see less use of them. Cause that would be a way to reduce their usage AND make money. Or switch it up. Checked bag free, overhead fee. A personal item bag is probably less likely to cause a bottleneck than overhead bins.
 
eielef
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:53 pm

Jouhou wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
No he's right, when people fail to take an emergency seriously and don't evacuate immediately, and they are blocking your safe exit, you make them leave. I've definitely done it before in a building evacuation, grabbed a dudes stuff and threw it out the door, started pushing peop!e outside.


I agree with you. BUT, I dont recall hearing, in the last many years, that part of the standard safety demonstration or video, that:
A) During emergency evacuation you need to remove your shoes, and all sharp objects (including glasses and jewelry). Place them inside the sick bags in the seat in front of you and leave them stored there.
B) Do not take ANY items, including those from the carry on luggage.
Those should be reminded very often, on every flight.

Now, having in video the evacuation (at least part) it should be found those who took their hand luggage, selfishly, not allowing others to evacuate on time, and they should receive criminal charges, according to Sec. 268 of the Russian Criminal Code, that states: Violation by a passenger, of the rules for traffic safety and operation of transport vehicles, if this deed has involved by negligence the infliction of grave injury to human health, and entailing by negligence the death of two or more persons, shall be punishable by compulsory labour for a term of up to five years, or by deprivation of liberty for a term of up to seven years.

It happens all the time, so I believe passengers are not well trained for this scenarios. E.G. few years ago, in an emergency evacuation of a British Airways aircraft in Las Vegas (NV, USA), news reported following: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34191035
 
SocalApproach
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:55 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
SocalApproach wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
The landing filmed from outside. It's no wonder the jet erupted in flame: https://twitter.com/bazabazon/status/11 ... 7598651393


I have seen comments praising the crew for getting it down. That video literally looks like they screwed up the landing to cause the impact/fire


If there was anything not working properly on board, this might explain the difficulty to land.



Absolutely. I know the crew had said there was a problem in the first place and decided to return to the airport so I can certainly see that as a possibility
 
peak86
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:56 pm

Yikes, Russian media now reports death toll at 41. That spiked quick
 
LAXBUR
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 8:58 pm

SocalApproach wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
SocalApproach wrote:

I have seen comments praising the crew for getting it down. That video literally looks like they screwed up the landing to cause the impact/fire


If there was anything not working properly on board, this might explain the difficulty to land.



Absolutely. I know the crew had said there was a problem in the first place and decided to return to the airport so I can certainly see that as a possibility


But yet you claimed they “screwed up”. And it was already stated and fairly obvious the fire started or at least significantly worsened from the ground impact. So you aren’t bringing new information. You’re just making wild accusations and assumptions that just waste space with little information while also seemingly ignoring the information on hand.
 
eielef
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:00 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
SocalApproach wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
The landing filmed from outside. It's no wonder the jet erupted in flame: https://twitter.com/bazabazon/status/11 ... 7598651393


I have seen comments praising the crew for getting it down. That video literally looks like they screwed up the landing to cause the impact/fire


If there was anything not working properly on board, this might explain the difficulty to land.


That's a good point. Some hours ago, press said the pilots had declared an emergency and decided to return the airport, due to a lightning strucking on an engine. Were engines working properly? For how long? Did the pilots survive?
There was rain today in Moscow, but I didn't see any electrical activity, though I'm some 50km south from SVO (I'm very close to VKO).
 
SocalApproach
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:03 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
SocalApproach wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

If there was anything not working properly on board, this might explain the difficulty to land.



Absolutely. I know the crew had said there was a problem in the first place and decided to return to the airport so I can certainly see that as a possibility


But yet you claimed they “screwed up”. And it was already stated and fairly obvious the fire started or at least significantly worsened from the ground impact. So you aren’t bringing new information. You’re just making wild accusations and assumptions that just waste space with little information while also seemingly ignoring the information on hand.


I was just reacting to the video that was posted compared to the praising of the flight crew I read earlier. Obviously nobody knows what happened yet but I cant see how me reacting on a forum is a waste of space anymore than your post. What exactly are you adding here other than implying that nobody should say anything until we get all the information? Get over yourself
 
mattyfitzg
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:05 pm

 
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giosue61
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:06 pm

SocalApproach wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
The landing filmed from outside. It's no wonder the jet erupted in flame: https://twitter.com/bazabazon/status/11 ... 7598651393


I have seen comments praising the crew for getting it down. That video literally looks like they screwed up the landing to cause the impact/fire. That landing looks completely out of control. Obviously I do not know much of the details as there could have been a fire on board but that video makes me question that


The plane appears in very poor control. At least out of a controlled flare. Evidently a major malfunction is occurring. It would be interesting to follow the investigation, if reliable datas will be published.
In any case, the appreciation for the crew job was published when few details were available, at the very beginning of this thread.
Last edited by giosue61 on Sun May 05, 2019 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
opticalilyushin
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:07 pm

Jouhou wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Sorry, but if you stop in front of me to get a bag from the overhead during an evac, I will be chucking you through the door ahead of me by your hair and belt. There is no time to be nice in this situation. There will be enough panic, as it is.

Look at the tough guy behind a keyboard...

Unless you personally have been in such a situation, you have no clue (zero, zilch, nada) on how you would react. You might be the one reaching for your bag, you might be running in circles freaking out; you don't know.
Heck, I don't even know how I would react. I would hope I could stay cold headed; but, when you have a raging fire licking your hair and you're sitting on tons of jet fuel, all sanity is thrown out of the window.

Easy to blame others.
Remember the Bible? "He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her"


No he's right, when people fail to take an emergency seriously and don't evacuate immediately, and they are blocking your safe exit, you make them leave. I've definitely done it before in a building evacuation, grabbed a dudes stuff and threw it out the door, started pushing peop!e outside.


These situations can make people do crazy unexpected things..but this is why crew are trained to scream out clear and simple evacuation orders. I can just about understand if someone has a small backpack at their feet, as they can have it on their back before they even get into the aisle. If i was involved in an evacuation, and the person in front of me stopped to open the locker for his bag, thus blocking the aisle..well let's just say that I've never picked a fight in my life but I'd have no hesitation in putting my foot up his ass if i had to, getting him moving and off the plane, then telling them how stupid and dangerous his actions were. Adrenalin kicks in and you have to jump out.

This accident has been horrific, and if in the investigation it turns out that those who died did so because of others grabbing bags and holding things up, i genuinely hope they get to live with the knowledge of what their actions caused. It's harsh but i have no sympathy for such stupidity.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:08 pm

pilots survive, lightning shown in area, pilots set transponder to 7700 before landing.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:08 pm

eielef wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
That's a good point. Some hours ago, press said the pilots had declared an emergency and decided to return the airport, due to a lightning strucking on an engine. Were engines working properly? For how long? Did the pilots survive?
There was rain today in Moscow, but I didn't see any electrical activity, though I'm some 50km south from SVO (I'm very close to VKO).


Hours ago, I've read and reported here that some sort of electrical system had occurred. Don't know if it's real. I've also read pilots survived. They may have had difficulties to control speed: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#20671283
 
mxaxai
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:09 pm

eielef wrote:
either on the emergency exits over the wings

The SSJ, like the E-170 and CSeries, has no over-wing exits. Only front and back. Theoretically, this could be a textbook evacuation with half of the exits inoperable, 90 seconds time ...

Perhaps the more realistic way to adress carry-on luggage is to account for an increased evacuation time during design and testing. Just make every other test person during the evacuation test carry a 10 kg suitcase.
 
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OA940
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:10 pm

Horrible how fast we went from ''I'm so glad everyone is OK'' to more than half those onboard being dead. Even though the videos definitely didn't show 80 people getting out.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
YULACYYZ
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:12 pm

nordikcam wrote:
Blerg wrote:
spacecookie wrote:
No sir
Just a dump person thinks about luggage if a plane is on fire.
I could not care less about material stuff if someone can got hurt


I usually travel with a business bag or a backpack which I rarely put in the overhead compartment, usually it's between my legs or under the seat in front of me. So in an emergency I would pull it up and leave the plane. Someone like you would attack me for holding up the line while in reality that's not the case. Maybe we shouldn't rush to judgement and to attack people just like that.


Fortunately, the crew of AF 358 managed to evacuate 300 passengers in 90 seconds during the Toronto crash ... plane completely destroyed ... and not a dead person! But the passengers did not have luggage ...!


Yes they did! Just Google Air France flight crash in Toronto and you will see them. Human nature at its best!

You cant really compare both of the unfortunate crashes in my view, as the Russian plane was totally engulfed on fire and the Air France flight's fire started while one of its engine detached from the wing sliding into the ravine. The aircraft was destroyed well after the passengers evacuated. And yes, the crew did a fantastic job!
 
TWA1985
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:14 pm

Here’s a pic of the burned rear fuselage after the fire had been extinguished. I honestly can’t imagine what it must have been like for those poor souls in the back. :(

https://mobile.twitter.com/Hromadske/st ... 5015448576
Last edited by TWA1985 on Sun May 05, 2019 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Be Young. Be Wild. Be Free.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:14 pm

I'd be interested in expert input on the "worst case" impact of a lighting strike to an aircraft at low altitude.... its been my uninformed understanding (mostly from a.net) that modern aircraft aren't greatly affected...

Are the there modern examples of lighting causing non-fire damage resulting in loss of control?
 
Tominjsh
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:15 pm

mxaxai wrote:
eielef wrote:
either on the emergency exits over the wings

The SSJ, like the E-170 and CSeries, has no over-wing exits.

are you sure about CS? somehow I have been sitting on emergency overwing exit on BT plane..
 
LAXBUR
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:18 pm

SocalApproach wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
SocalApproach wrote:


Absolutely. I know the crew had said there was a problem in the first place and decided to return to the airport so I can certainly see that as a possibility


But yet you claimed they “screwed up”. And it was already stated and fairly obvious the fire started or at least significantly worsened from the ground impact. So you aren’t bringing new information. You’re just making wild accusations and assumptions that just waste space with little information while also seemingly ignoring the information on hand.


I was just reacting to the video that was posted compared to the praising of the flight crew I read earlier. Obviously nobody knows what happened yet but I cant see how me reacting on a forum is a waste of space anymore than your post. What exactly are you adding here other than implying that nobody should say anything until we get all the information? Get over yourself


I don’t have anything to get over. Just because I like air travel doesn’t make me an expert. I’m not making claims about a crew screwing up by just seeing a video while ignoring the information the plane may have had serious instrument and/or control issues. And I’m not implying no one should say anything. I am saying stupid accusations about the crew screwing up is wrong. They may have, but that’s impossible to know at this stage.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:18 pm

SVO elevation, per FR24, is 622ft. On the same site, the last recorded position of the flight was at 15:29:29, at an altitude of 950ft and a speed of 148kt. At 15:29:13, altitude was 1,100 and speed 141. What is the normal landing speed of the SSJ?
 
tu204
Posts: 1943
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:20 pm

c933103 wrote:
https://www.interfax.ru/moscow/660212
According to Russian report, the evacuation was rather quick, but some passengers trying to take their personal belonging from luggage rack have made it difficult for passengers at the back to evacuate and thus caused their death.


That qualifies under part 1, article 109 Criminal Law of the Russian Federation.

 1. Causing death by negligence -
shall be punished with correctional labor for up to two years, or restriction of liberty for up to two years, or forced labor for up to two years, or imprisonment for the same period.


Good luck proving it though. You would have to have the videos of other dumbasses that were filming the evacuation as evidence with the faces of those that were pulling their luggage from the overheads and their statements.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
phugoid1982
Posts: 58
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:21 pm

That footage of of the bounce on landing and subsequent fire sent shivers down my spine! An absolute tragedy and my thoughts are with the victims. I hope this doesn't lead to the usual barrage of anti Russian aircraft comments before we know anything substantive but we'll see.
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:23 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Maybe if they get charged for criminal neglect others will think before grabbing their bags & killing someone over crap you can replace.


I doubt there would be any deterrent value. Few air passengers would keep abreast of the proceedings and be aware of the precedent.

Furthermore, if an incident like this were prosecuted in the US, I think the state would have a very difficult time proving the requisite "mens rea," or frame of mind, to convict someone. As noted earlier, people do not necessarily react rationally in a crisis. And the optics of prosecuting people who were in an airplane crash to begin with would be very, very poor; I'd question whether a jury would convict even if the prosecutor could establish mens rea.
 
SocalApproach
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:08 pm

Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:26 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
SocalApproach wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:

But yet you claimed they “screwed up”. And it was already stated and fairly obvious the fire started or at least significantly worsened from the ground impact. So you aren’t bringing new information. You’re just making wild accusations and assumptions that just waste space with little information while also seemingly ignoring the information on hand.


I was just reacting to the video that was posted compared to the praising of the flight crew I read earlier. Obviously nobody knows what happened yet but I cant see how me reacting on a forum is a waste of space anymore than your post. What exactly are you adding here other than implying that nobody should say anything until we get all the information? Get over yourself


I don’t have anything to get over. Just because I like air travel doesn’t make me an expert. I’m not making claims about a crew screwing up by just seeing a video while ignoring the information the plane may have had serious instrument and/or control issues. And I’m not implying no one should say anything. I am saying stupid accusations about the crew screwing up is wrong. They may have, but that’s impossible to know at this stage.


And someone already suggested that there could have been a malfunction that caused the unstable landing to which I accept. Im not trying to act like I know anything I am just reacting to what I saw on the video. If you have an issue with it then you should put your name in the hat for one of the forum moderation positions so you can flex some authority you seem to want on what people can/should post.
 
clancy688
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:38 am

Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:26 pm

TexStones wrote:
The solution is actually pretty simple: lock the overhead compartments during takeoff and landing. The tech probably already exists, and while it would be expensive to implement it would certainly help save lives in situations such as this.


Then you have people blocking the aisle for even longer because they futilely try to pry open overhead compartments which are locked shut. There is no real good solution here. People will do irresponsible things when panicked, we're only human and not machines. It's easy to demonize the people who foolishly tried to retrieve their baggage, but I guarantee you that pretty much none of them will ever put their luggage above another human's life - if given a calm minute to think about it.

The problem simply is that shit was hitting the fan and they didn't think about the consequences, because for obvious reasons there wasn't much time at hand to do any thinking.

I'm not defending these people. What they did was stupid and if it cost other people's life, there should be a reckoning. But we're not computers, and it's very unfair to expect normal people who suddenly find themselves in life-or-death situations to think logically. We're simply not built for that.
 
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nordikcam
Posts: 86
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Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:28 pm

YULACYYZ wrote:
nordikcam wrote:
Blerg wrote:

I usually travel with a business bag or a backpack which I rarely put in the overhead compartment, usually it's between my legs or under the seat in front of me. So in an emergency I would pull it up and leave the plane. Someone like you would attack me for holding up the line while in reality that's not the case. Maybe we shouldn't rush to judgement and to attack people just like that.


Fortunately, the crew of AF 358 managed to evacuate 300 passengers in 90 seconds during the Toronto crash ... plane completely destroyed ... and not a dead person! But the passengers did not have luggage ...!


Yes they did! Just Google Air France flight crash in Toronto and you will see them. Human nature at its best!

You cant really compare both of the unfortunate crashes in my view, as the Russian plane was totally engulfed on fire and the Air France flight's fire started while one of its engine detached from the wing sliding into the ravine. The aircraft was destroyed well after the passengers evacuated. And yes, the crew did a fantastic job!


And I didn't say the Aeroflot crew didn't make perfectly their job...I do not know...I can imagine. But seeing passengers with their luggage...it's...it's...
 
eielef
Posts: 704
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:07 am

Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:30 pm

mxaxai wrote:
eielef wrote:
either on the emergency exits over the wings

The SSJ, like the E-170 and CSeries, has no over-wing exits. Only front and back. Theoretically, this could be a textbook evacuation with half of the exits inoperable, 90 seconds time ...

Perhaps the more realistic way to adress carry-on luggage is to account for an increased evacuation time during design and testing. Just make every other test person during the evacuation test carry a 10 kg suitcase.


Good observations, thanks!
As of the evacuation, which should have been done in 90 seconds, according to an official communication of Aeroflot (https://www.aeroflot.ru/ru-en/news/61325?from=en_main) it was performed in 55 seconds, which would be a very good one. But still, as for the moment, 41 people were lost, that is over half of the people onboard...
 
kipfilet
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:44 pm

Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:32 pm

A Portuguese newspaper is mentioning 41 dead, citing Reuters as a source:
https://www.publico.pt/2019/05/05/mundo ... vo-1871555
 
kipfilet
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:44 pm

Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:33 pm

 
tu204
Posts: 1943
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Aeroflot SSJ100 on fire at Moscow (SVO)

Sun May 05, 2019 9:34 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
Maybe if they get charged for criminal neglect others will think before grabbing their bags & killing someone over crap you can replace.


I doubt there would be any deterrent value. Few air passengers would keep abreast of the proceedings and be aware of the precedent.

Furthermore, if an incident like this were prosecuted in the US, I think the state would have a very difficult time proving the requisite "mens rea," or frame of mind, to convict someone. As noted earlier, people do not necessarily react rationally in a crisis. And the optics of prosecuting people who were in an airplane crash to begin with would be very, very poor; I'd question whether a jury would convict even if the prosecutor could establish mens rea.


Unfortunately this is Russia and the procecutors are probably already at work but they will throw the charges at the pilots as they are the easiest to blame. Unfortunately for them they are alive and can respond to the accusations.

However I presonally wouldn't mind to have a passenger or two convicted for my above mentioned article of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation for death by negligence.

This has happened too many times in recent years where people were hapmering the evacuation by grabbing their belongings. Here it may have heave caused loss of life to others. Maybe the Prosecution Committee of the RF can actually do something productice for a change and do something for the better and throw the book at someone where that will happen?

(You guys that think I am a Russian troll can click that little "star" by this post) ;)
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov

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