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Dutchy
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Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Sun May 05, 2019 7:25 pm

A few examples from the recent past. Sure Boeing has been put under a magnifying glass, but still.

Engineers say Boeing pushed to limit safety testing in race to certify planes, including 737 MAX

In 2016, as Boeing raced to get the 737 MAX certified by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), a senior company engineer whose job was to act on behalf of the FAA balked at Boeing management demands for less stringent testing of the fire-suppression system around the jet’s new LEAP engines.



Boeing safety system not at fault, says chief executive

Boeing's boss has refused to admit that a system introduced in its 737 Max 8 aircraft was flawed following two fatal plane crashes.

Appearing in front of investors and the media, Dennis Muilenburg maintained the system was only one factor in a chain of events that led to the disasters.

But new reports have raised fresh questions about the plane's safety.

It has emerged that whistleblowers connected to Boeing contacted the US airline regulator about the system.



Boeing Didn’t Advise Airlines, FAA That It Shut Off Warning System

Accident investigators have linked bad data the system is designed to detect to the deadly Ethiopian Airlines and Lion Air crashes



Boeing’s South Carolina Plant Subject to Increased Scrutiny

The Federal Aviation Administration has been increasing its scrutiny of Boeing’s plant near Charleston, S.C., where manufacturing errors have at times threatened to undermine safety.



Reuters: FAA directive mandates new changes to Boeing 787 Dreamliner

“The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration on Wednesday said it was mandating new flight control software and parts to Boeing Co’s 787 Dreamliner to address what it called an unsafe operating condition of certain products on the plane.


Boeing is ramping up inspections after the US Air Force rejected its new KC-46 tanker planes again

>The United States Air Force has once again rejected taking delivery of new Boeing KC-46 Pegasus tanker jets after discovering foreign object debris (FOD) left inside the aircraft by Boeing workers.
>According to the USAF, its inspectors found tools and other debris inside the planes.
>This is the second time in a month the Air Force has halted delivery of the KC-46 for the same reason.
>Boeing delivered its first KC-46 tanker in January.


Is this systemic? The focus seems to be on making money and not on safety. On making money and not on engineering. On making spreadsheets work not on making aircraft work. Being proud at the bottomline, not proud on delivering a good product. Has it gone too far with Boeing?

Disclaimer: I do not want to trash Boeing, but it seems to me that Boeing suffers from a decease where large companies suffer from, just profit maximisation, not optimisation.
Last edited by atcsundevil on Sun May 05, 2019 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Punctuation added for clarity
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WayexTDI
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Sun May 05, 2019 8:15 pm

Not to discount the issues, but it's also possible that all this surfaces now due to the MAX issues. It seems all eyes are on Boeing right now, and every single issue gets blown out of proportion (i.e., the media found they needed to add "Miami Air International is a charter airline operating a fleet of the Boeing 737-800, different from the 737 MAX 8 aircraft that has been grounded following two fatal crashes involving that plane", which is irrelevant to that specific incident).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Sun May 05, 2019 8:28 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Not to discount the issues, but it's also possible that all this surfaces now due to the MAX issues. It seems all eyes are on Boeing right now, and every single issue gets blown out of proportion (i.e., the media found they needed to add "Miami Air International is a charter airline operating a fleet of the Boeing 737-800, different from the 737 MAX 8 aircraft that has been grounded following two fatal crashes involving that plane", which is irrelevant to that specific incident).


Sure, as I already noted. I wanted to raise the issue since there are a number of incidents across different lines, in different stages of the aircraft cycle, in different states.
I was hoping on some inside.m
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smartplane
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Sun May 05, 2019 8:47 pm

Dutchy wrote:
>The United States Air Force has once again rejected taking delivery of new Boeing KC-46 Pegasus tanker jets after discovering foreign object debris (FOD) left inside the aircraft by Boeing workers.
>According to the USAF, its inspectors found tools and other debris inside the planes.
>This is the second time in a month the Air Force has halted delivery of the KC-46 for the same reason.
>Boeing delivered its first KC-46 tanker in January.


Is this systemic? The focus seems to be on making money and not on safety. On making money and not on engineering. On making spreadsheets work not on making aircraft work. Being proud at the bottomline, not proud on delivering a good product. Has it gone too far with Boeing?

The military have upped their inspection standards in relation to accepting purchases, increasingly hiring civil expertise. Part of the reason for this is they are leasing, or using composite military (Government) / civil funding.

While we may jest about certain ME3 airlines checking carpets and switching test engines, and another that discovered 'issues' with engines missed by previous customers (not all 'sand' related).

When the customer sets the bar high, guess whose aircraft get the most attention, compared to some customers who hardly bother with a CAF (and for example missed certain STS, AoA and MCAS warnings were not enabled).

Airlines and military, raise your acceptance standards for the benefit of crews and passengers, and OEM's are sure to follow.
 
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777Jet
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Sun May 05, 2019 8:50 pm

This 60 Minutes Australia entire episode aired last night about Boeing and the 737 Max.

http://www.9now.com.au/60-minutes/2019/episode-14

""Liz Hayes investigates the disaster of Boeing's 737 MAX jetliner. Why two supposedly state-of-the-art and safe planes crashed killing 346 people; why pilots now fear flying the 737 MAX; & whether Boeing could have averted the catastrophes.""

I found it quite interesting.
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Absynth
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Sun May 05, 2019 8:57 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Not to discount the issues, but it's also possible that all this surfaces now due to the MAX issues. It seems all eyes are on Boeing right now, and every single issue gets blown out of proportion (i.e., the media found they needed to add "Miami Air International is a charter airline operating a fleet of the Boeing 737-800, different from the 737 MAX 8 aircraft that has been grounded following two fatal crashes involving that plane", which is irrelevant to that specific incident).


Did you read that first article, published today? One of the most shocking articles I've read in a long time.

Calling this "blown out of proportion" suggests the same is happening at other manufactures like Airbus. Maybe it's time to take off that tinfoil hat and face the possibility this could indeed be a Boeing issue.

Somewhere between faulty software, single points of failure, optional safety features, undocumented changes and non-disclosure to pilots, refusing to take any responsibility for the 737MAX issues and the complete and utter regulatory capture, Boeing has lost me.

Not flying any Boeing plane untill heads roll, people go behind bars, the FAA reverts to the old system, and Boeing takes full responsibility for this criminal neglect.
Last edited by Absynth on Sun May 05, 2019 9:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Sun May 05, 2019 9:03 pm

777Jet wrote:
This 60 Minutes Australia entire episode aired last night about Boeing and the 737 Max.

http://www.9now.com.au/60-minutes/2019/episode-14

""Liz Hayes investigates the disaster of Boeing's 737 MAX jetliner. Why two supposedly state-of-the-art and safe planes crashed killing 346 people; why pilots now fear flying the 737 MAX; & whether Boeing could have averted the catastrophes.""

I found it quite interesting.


can't see it, outside Australia it is blocked.
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PrideAir
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Sun May 05, 2019 9:25 pm

Dutchy wrote:


Reuters: FAA directive mandates new changes to Boeing 787 Dreamliner

“The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration on Wednesday said it was mandating new flight control software and parts to Boeing Co’s 787 Dreamliner to address what it called an unsafe operating condition of certain products on the plane.


This particular issue is in reference to an Airworthiness Directive issued by the FAA on Thursday May 2, 2019. It included more than just flight control software. True that FAA classified it as an "unsafe condition". But most if not all FAA Airworthiness Directives include the statement that the directive is "addressing" or "prevent" an "unsafe condition". I subscribe to the FAA's Airworthiness Directive distribution and I receive one or more of these a week for Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer, P&W, GE, RR, etc. It's not just Boeing getting these. The majority of FAA AD's address those issues that creep up over time with a complex system. It's not due to ANY SINGLE ONE of the manufacturer's listed above ignoring safety or willfully endangering people's lives.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... enDocument
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Sun May 05, 2019 9:37 pm

Absynth wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Not to discount the issues, but it's also possible that all this surfaces now due to the MAX issues. It seems all eyes are on Boeing right now, and every single issue gets blown out of proportion (i.e., the media found they needed to add "Miami Air International is a charter airline operating a fleet of the Boeing 737-800, different from the 737 MAX 8 aircraft that has been grounded following two fatal crashes involving that plane", which is irrelevant to that specific incident).


Did you read that first article, published today? One of the most shocking articles I've read in a long time.

Calling this "blown out of proportion" suggests the same is happening at other manufactures like Airbus. Maybe it's time to take off that tinfoil hat and face the possibility this could indeed be a Boeing issue.

Somewhere between faulty software, single points of failure, optional safety features, undocumented changes and non-disclosure to pilots, refusing to take any responsibility for the 737MAX issues and the complete and utter regulatory capture, Boeing has lost me.

Not flying any Boeing plane untill heads roll, people go behind bars, the FAA reverts to the old system, and Boeing takes full responsibility for this criminal neglect.


Clearly it could be a Boeing issue. But it's also true that sometimes media attention leads to an outsized emphasis on one manufacturer's problems. Look at the auto industry ten years ago. Toyota recalled vehicles to, among other things, install brake override. At the time that Toyota did that, under 5 percent of the vehicles on the road (all manufacturers) had brake override, and something on the order of 10 or 20 percent of new vehicles did. Why was Toyota the only manufacturer to install brake override in in-service vehicles? Certainly, there's a decent argument that media attention on other concerns was part of the reason.
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777Jet
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Sun May 05, 2019 9:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
777Jet wrote:
This 60 Minutes Australia entire episode aired last night about Boeing and the 737 Max.

http://www.9now.com.au/60-minutes/2019/episode-14

""Liz Hayes investigates the disaster of Boeing's 737 MAX jetliner. Why two supposedly state-of-the-art and safe planes crashed killing 346 people; why pilots now fear flying the 737 MAX; & whether Boeing could have averted the catastrophes.""

I found it quite interesting.


can't see it, outside Australia it is blocked.


Oh...

Here is a summary article.

'Boeing’s disaster 737 MAX aircraft'

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/boe ... li=BBU4PL8

Maybe it will be available on the 60 minutes YouTube channel in the future. It is worth watching. Goes for about 45 minutes.
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Galwayman
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Sun May 05, 2019 9:50 pm

Not only are there legitimate questions about Boeing’s safety culture , the question now arises if the FAA can be trusted as a reliable international safety authority .

The question also arises why the NYT was running smear articles against Indonesian pilots

Three institutions - Boeing , the FAA and the NYT have signification questions to answer
 
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william
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Sun May 05, 2019 9:51 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Absynth wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Not to discount the issues, but it's also possible that all this surfaces now due to the MAX issues. It seems all eyes are on Boeing right now, and every single issue gets blown out of proportion (i.e., the media found they needed to add "Miami Air International is a charter airline operating a fleet of the Boeing 737-800, different from the 737 MAX 8 aircraft that has been grounded following two fatal crashes involving that plane", which is irrelevant to that specific incident).


Did you read that first article, published today? One of the most shocking articles I've read in a long time.

Calling this "blown out of proportion" suggests the same is happening at other manufactures like Airbus. Maybe it's time to take off that tinfoil hat and face the possibility this could indeed be a Boeing issue.

Somewhere between faulty software, single points of failure, optional safety features, undocumented changes and non-disclosure to pilots, refusing to take any responsibility for the 737MAX issues and the complete and utter regulatory capture, Boeing has lost me.

Not flying any Boeing plane untill heads roll, people go behind bars, the FAA reverts to the old system, and Boeing takes full responsibility for this criminal neglect.


Clearly it could be a Boeing issue. But it's also true that sometimes media attention leads to an outsized emphasis on one manufacturer's problems. Look at the auto industry ten years ago. Toyota recalled vehicles to, among other things, install brake override. At the time that Toyota did that, under 5 percent of the vehicles on the road (all manufacturers) had brake override, and something on the order of 10 or 20 percent of new vehicles did. Why was Toyota the only manufacturer to install brake override in in-service vehicles? Certainly, there's a decent argument that media attention on other concerns was part of the reason.


On the other hand, remember the 60 minutes hit piece back in the 80s on the Audi 5000 unintended acceleration. If I remember correctly nothing technical was wrong, just people hitting the wrong pedal.
 
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Sun May 05, 2019 10:38 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Not to discount the issues, but it's also possible that all this surfaces now due to the MAX issues. It seems all eyes are on Boeing right now, and every single issue gets blown out of proportion (i.e., the media found they needed to add "Miami Air International is a charter airline operating a fleet of the Boeing 737-800, different from the 737 MAX 8 aircraft that has been grounded following two fatal crashes involving that plane", which is irrelevant to that specific incident).


I get what you are saying, however the news companies have to distinguish the difference. If they put "737 Crashes in river" the public will automatically assume its the MAX or the same thing again. Its to cover the news agencies back, because Boeing would be straight on the phone causing a nuisance.
 
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Sun May 05, 2019 10:45 pm

Because of this profit maximisation and pressure from shareholders, the biggest thing boeing has lost is its reputation. I told my mrs (who knows nothing about aviation) about the SSJ100 crash today and she said "Wasnt another Boeing was it" and it shocked me that she would even say that. That is worrying. My mrs calls the A380 the big Dubai planes.
 
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Mon May 06, 2019 2:46 am

william wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Absynth wrote:

Did you read that first article, published today? One of the most shocking articles I've read in a long time.

Calling this "blown out of proportion" suggests the same is happening at other manufactures like Airbus. Maybe it's time to take off that tinfoil hat and face the possibility this could indeed be a Boeing issue.

Somewhere between faulty software, single points of failure, optional safety features, undocumented changes and non-disclosure to pilots, refusing to take any responsibility for the 737MAX issues and the complete and utter regulatory capture, Boeing has lost me.

Not flying any Boeing plane untill heads roll, people go behind bars, the FAA reverts to the old system, and Boeing takes full responsibility for this criminal neglect.


Clearly it could be a Boeing issue. But it's also true that sometimes media attention leads to an outsized emphasis on one manufacturer's problems. Look at the auto industry ten years ago. Toyota recalled vehicles to, among other things, install brake override. At the time that Toyota did that, under 5 percent of the vehicles on the road (all manufacturers) had brake override, and something on the order of 10 or 20 percent of new vehicles did. Why was Toyota the only manufacturer to install brake override in in-service vehicles? Certainly, there's a decent argument that media attention on other concerns was part of the reason.


On the other hand, remember the 60 minutes hit piece back in the 80s on the Audi 5000 unintended acceleration. If I remember correctly nothing technical was wrong, just people hitting the wrong pedal.


It wasn't IIRC JUST people hitting the wrong brake pedal, they rearranged the size and positioning of acceleration and braking pedals. Not a good idea. And then blaming your customers is even a worse idea.
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okie73
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Mon May 06, 2019 3:00 am

Galwayman wrote:
Not only are there legitimate questions about Boeing’s safety culture , the question now arises if the FAA can be trusted as a reliable international safety authority .

The question also arises why the NYT was running smear articles against Indonesian pilots

Three institutions - Boeing , the FAA and the NYT have signification questions to answer



I have seen a few smear articles about the Lion Air and Ethiopian pilots. I don’t buy it. Even if the pilots were not perfect in handling a malfunction.....they still should not have had to deal with that malfunction. Can’t blame the pilots for this.
 
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:03 am

I am a huge Boeing fan but the news just keeps getting worse everyday including today. I have not seen one person from Boeing held publicly responsible for these many misses on the MAX. No one has been fired or reassigned or put on leave that I am aware of. I think it is time for someone to fall on their sword and if the CEO is going to stonewall this and protect employees who failed their engineering education and their company then he needs to step down.
 
leftcoast8
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Mon May 06, 2019 3:43 am

william wrote:
On the other hand, remember the 60 minutes hit piece back in the 80s on the Audi 5000 unintended acceleration. If I remember correctly nothing technical was wrong, just people hitting the wrong pedal.


The "60 Minutes" show concerned here is from the Nine Network in Australia and has nothing to do with the original U.S. show, which aired the Audi 5000 story.
 
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 4:11 am

Quick opinion regarding the MAX tragedies. Every top executive at Boeing that knew about the problems with the MAX should face over 300 counts of murder. Each should face extradition to both Indonesia and Ethopia to stand trial as far as I am concerned.

Make ZERO mistake about it... The top brass of Boeing holds 110,000% responsibility for the safety issues. I worked for Boeing, and I can tell you right now.... They are all about profit, and that's the culture they hold dearly in the tower in Chicago. Ram these planes out, go as Lean as possible, increase production, hurry, and be ethical. Oh, and outsource this, outsource that! Then they cram those stupid "Ethics" training classes on factory workers, because most of the execs have been nailed for violating the ethics standards. Any manager caught sleeping with their secretaries on their desk in the factories are reassigned to "Special Duty" assignments.

None of this falls on any of the plane builders or the engineers. It all falls directly on every top brass at Boeing. Sorry all fan boys of Boeing jets.... But that's the flat truth. The top brass murdered those people! Period.
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 4:26 am

While I think Boeing was very very wrong with how they handled their issues, I can't help but feel that much of the voices being raised is more of anti-Boeing sentiment than anything. It seemed even before the crashes, this site was already rather negative towards Boeing. I honestly can't help but feel that had these crashes happened to the A320neo instead (knock-on-wood) the reactions would have been far more muted. Like if it happened to Airbus instead, I can't help but think that discussions wouldn't be as active as they are and there wouldn't be as many anti-Airbus comments as there are many anti-Boeing posts now.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 4:34 am

This happens every time their is a high profile crash. I remember the DC-10 hysteria in the late 1970's.

Boeing made mistakes with the max but they do not build unsafe aircraft. Neither does Airbus. The problems will be fixed. People need to chill. Nobody wanted or expected this to happen.
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 4:48 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
This happens every time their is a high profile crash. I remember the DC-10 hysteria in the late 1970's.

Boeing made mistakes with the max but they do not build unsafe aircraft. Neither does Airbus. The problems will be fixed. People need to chill. Nobody wanted or expected this to happen.


I have to agree. The media is taking things out of proportion at the moment.

Yes, 300 people died, but the verdict on the cause of their deaths is still months away. Maybe Boeing shoulder some of the responsibility, maybe the pilot shoulder a bit of that same responsibility, maybe the airlines share some of the responsibility as well, but until the reports are released all that we have now is conjecture.
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impilot
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 4:52 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
This happens every time their is a high profile crash. I remember the DC-10 hysteria in the late 1970's.

Boeing made mistakes with the max but they do not build unsafe aircraft. Neither does Airbus. The problems will be fixed. People need to chill. Nobody wanted or expected this to happen.


I have to agree. The media is taking things out of proportion at the moment.

Yes, 300 people died, but the verdict on the cause of their deaths is still months away. Maybe Boeing shoulder some of the responsibility, maybe the pilot shoulder a bit of that same responsibility, maybe the airlines share some of the responsibility as well, but until the reports are released all that we have now is conjecture.

Oh we have a lot more than conjecture at this point...
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 4:57 am

impilot wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
This happens every time their is a high profile crash. I remember the DC-10 hysteria in the late 1970's.

Boeing made mistakes with the max but they do not build unsafe aircraft. Neither does Airbus. The problems will be fixed. People need to chill. Nobody wanted or expected this to happen.


I have to agree. The media is taking things out of proportion at the moment.

Yes, 300 people died, but the verdict on the cause of their deaths is still months away. Maybe Boeing shoulder some of the responsibility, maybe the pilot shoulder a bit of that same responsibility, maybe the airlines share some of the responsibility as well, but until the reports are released all that we have now is conjecture.

Oh we have a lot more than conjecture at this point...


Unless you're actually involved with the matter, you can't say for certain that what you have is hard facts.

In any case, I would think simple logic applies - if Boeing planes truly are unsafe, wouldn't we see more Boeing planes falling off the skies?
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777Jet
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 5:02 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
This happens every time their is a high profile crash. I remember the DC-10 hysteria in the late 1970's.

Boeing made mistakes with the max but they do not build unsafe aircraft. Neither does Airbus. The problems will be fixed. People need to chill. Nobody wanted or expected this to happen.


I have to agree. The media is taking things out of proportion at the moment.

Yes, 300 people died, but the verdict on the cause of their deaths is still months away. Maybe Boeing shoulder some of the responsibility, maybe the pilot shoulder a bit of that same responsibility, maybe the airlines share some of the responsibility as well, but until the reports are released all that we have now is conjecture.


I agree that the media blows things out of proportion, as they always do with everything.

I know Lion Air has a shocking safety record, but their pilots did not know what they were dealing with so that gets them off the hook entirely. They probably never heard of MCAS. The Ethiopian pilots followed Boeing's new procedures after the Lion Air crash and the plane still crashed itself. That paints a bad story about the plane (Boeing).

Boeing is a fault here, but I understand why they did what they did because that is what the market wants. The majority of pax want the cheapest possible ticket. In turn airlines want to buy planes for as cheap as they can. How far must manufacturers go to get those sales? Obviously Boeing pushed the envelope too far with the Max. Rushing the entire design to get half of AA's order that was going to all go to Airbus. Wanting to keep training costs down for airlines to get those sales so not mentioning MCAS which would mean more training and more costs to airlines. Going with the single AoA sensor (stupid, stupid idea) knowing that certification was so close and adding that second or third sensor would result in more certification costs and training costs to pilots. The 56minute iPad course that would allow 737 pilots to transition. Boeing really got this wrong and is to blame but if you want to know why you just need to take a look at the 'market'... Consider potential consequences of searching again and again for the cheapest ticket in an already cut-throat industry.
Last edited by 777Jet on Mon May 06, 2019 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ELBOB
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 5:03 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
This happens every time their is a high profile crash. I remember the DC-10 hysteria in the late 1970's.


It wasn't hysteria back then - it was a valid response to numerous design issues and shortcuts taken by MDC in order to 'beat' Lockheed into flight and into service. And it's not hysteria now, in uncannily similar circumstances where Boeing decided that it had to 'compete' with Airbus.

Boeing made mistakes with the max but they do not build unsafe aircraft.


Apparently they do. They built the only commercial airliner that remains grounded without an AD available to correct its FLIGHT SAFETY issues.

And you are deliberately conflating 'mistakes' with 'design decisions'. Boeing have a long history of making engineering-unwise decisions guided by profit, right back to the 707.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 5:11 am

Haters gonna hate. I have never assumed either manufacturer has put profit before safety. There is zero factual evidence to support that conclusion. But again, if it makes you happy, enjoy. :bouncy: :yuck:

Maybe your saying Boeing thinks crashes are good for business?
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7673mech
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 5:14 am

I would say that from second level of management and up, there are issues with safety compliance.
The rank in file employees and 1st level managers want to produce a safe product.
2nd level and up only think of $$$ and schedule.
Don't think for a NY minute that once the ban is lifted that there will not be undo pressure put on the flight line mechanics and their supervision.
Every general, superintendent, director will be pushing hard to deliver airplanes.
The CEO is lying when he says safety comes first.
Max deliveries are going to turn into a joke. They are already allowing less qualified mechanics to transfer to the flight line. Until recently an A&P who wasn't working the flight line had to complete classes and testing - "getting green lights turned on" - they no longer need to. Another corner cut.

When I am taking delivery of a jet and conduct my final customer inspection, 90 percent of the items I find get signed of per drawing. If it's a wire riding condition I have to fight hard sometimes to get it fixed.
There is no safety culture. Just arrogance.
And I'm a Boeing fan. lol.
 
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 5:19 am

777Jet wrote:
I know Lion Air has a shocking safety record, but their pilots did not know what they were dealing with so that gets them off the hook entirely. They probably never heard of MCAS. The Ethiopian pilots followed Boeing's new procedures after the Lion Air crash and the plane still crashed itself. That paints a bad story about the plane (Boeing).


It's rather telling that the Lion Air aircraft had a similar problem on the previous flight, but the pilots on that flight was able to save the plane & land safely. Unfortunately this story doesn't get as much attention in the media as all the other stories about the MAX. Similarly, the pilots of the Ethiopian pilots is now known not to have followed Boeing's new procedures to the letter, and again the story didn't get as much attention. This is why I feel the story is overblown and that the plane itself, while having flaws, isn't exactly the dangerous killer that the media & the uninformed public would like to believe it is.

Yes, Boeing did made a mistake in not providing additional redundancies in the system but they're definitely not the first company to do so. If one were to dig into past history even Airbus can be said to have committed such errors before.

ELBOB wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
This happens every time their is a high profile crash. I remember the DC-10 hysteria in the late 1970's.


It wasn't hysteria back then - it was a valid response to numerous design issues and shortcuts taken by MDC in order to 'beat' Lockheed into flight and into service. And it's not hysteria now, in uncannily similar circumstances where Boeing decided that it had to 'compete' with Airbus.


The late 70s hysteria was brought on by AA191, which turned out to be a maintenance issue on the part of American which had used a non-approved engine removal method.
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 5:22 am

7673mech wrote:
I would say that from second level of management and up, there are issues with safety compliance.
The rank in file employees and 1st level managers want to produce a safe product.
2nd level and up only think of $$$ and schedule.
Don't think for a NY minute that once the ban is lifted that there will not be undo pressure put on the flight line mechanics and their supervision.
Every general, superintendent, director will be pushing hard to deliver airplanes.
The CEO is lying when he says safety comes first.
Max deliveries are going to turn into a joke. They are already allowing less qualified mechanics to transfer to the flight line. Until recently an A&P who wasn't working the flight line had to complete classes and testing - "getting green lights turned on" - they no longer need to. Another corner cut.

When I am taking delivery of a jet and conduct my final customer inspection, 90 percent of the items I find get signed of per drawing. If it's a wire riding condition I have to fight hard sometimes to get it fixed.
There is no safety culture. Just arrogance.
And I'm a Boeing fan. lol.


If this is true, and I have no reason to disbelieve you, then why are airliners putting up with this? They should be screaming to the skies.
Last edited by ElroyJetson on Mon May 06, 2019 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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F9Animal
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 5:25 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
While I think Boeing was very very wrong with how they handled their issues, I can't help but feel that much of the voices being raised is more of anti-Boeing sentiment than anything. It seemed even before the crashes, this site was already rather negative towards Boeing. I honestly can't help but feel that had these crashes happened to the A320neo instead (knock-on-wood) the reactions would have been far more muted. Like if it happened to Airbus instead, I can't help but think that discussions wouldn't be as active as they are and there wouldn't be as many anti-Airbus comments as there are many anti-Boeing posts now.


Personally, I have always been a fan of anything that has wings on it. There is always going to be the A versus B here on this page. However, based on the Seattle Times article published today, Boeing knew a year ago about the AOA issue, and failed to notify the FAA and proper authorities.

I will also stand up against those blaming the pilots here. Pure hogwash! Those pilots fought for every inch they could to save their lives, and those souls on board. I firmly believe the top brass should face criminal charges for this. I know if I had lost a loved one on either of those flights, the big wigs wouldn't have enough body guards to stop me from pursuing justice.
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hooverman
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 5:27 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
This happens every time their is a high profile crash. I remember the DC-10 hysteria in the late 1970's.

Boeing made mistakes with the max but they do not build unsafe aircraft. Neither does Airbus. The problems will be fixed. People need to chill. Nobody wanted or expected this to happen.


People don’t need to chill they need to take accountability.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 5:27 am

7673mech wrote:
I would say that from second level of management and up, there are issues with safety compliance.
The rank in file employees and 1st level managers want to produce a safe product.
2nd level and up only think of $$$ and schedule.
Don't think for a NY minute that once the ban is lifted that there will not be undo pressure put on the flight line mechanics and their supervision.
Every general, superintendent, director will be pushing hard to deliver airplanes.
The CEO is lying when he says safety comes first.
Max deliveries are going to turn into a joke. They are already allowing less qualified mechanics to transfer to the flight line. Until recently an A&P who wasn't working the flight line had to complete classes and testing - "getting green lights turned on" - they no longer need to. Another corner cut.

When I am taking delivery of a jet and conduct my final customer inspection, 90 percent of the items I find get signed of per drawing. If it's a wire riding condition I have to fight hard sometimes to get it fixed.
There is no safety culture. Just arrogance.
And I'm a Boeing fan. lol.


Wow - that's pretty awful. What ever happened to "whirl" envelopes and what not...

Jesus H. this is getting worse by the minute... :down:
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 5:33 am

hooverman wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
This happens every time their is a high profile crash. I remember the DC-10 hysteria in the late 1970's.

Boeing made mistakes with the max but they do not build unsafe aircraft. Neither does Airbus. The problems will be fixed. People need to chill. Nobody wanted or expected this to happen.


People don’t need to chill they need to take accountability.


No. People need to chill and get the facts before jumping to stupid or biased conclusions. The full story will come out. Too many are allowing bias or hatred to color their judgment. I have neither blamed the pilots, airlines, or Boeing. I will wait for the facts.
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xmp125a
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 6:03 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
This happens every time their is a high profile crash. I remember the DC-10 hysteria in the late 1970's.

Boeing made mistakes with the max but they do not build unsafe aircraft. Neither does Airbus. The problems will be fixed. People need to chill. Nobody wanted or expected this to happen.


No. The MCAS v1 is so crazily incompetent, murderous design, that it simply cannot happen in a company that has their design process properly done. It cannot, since there are many many levels of oversight to prevent something like MCAS v1 to happen. Therefore, safety culture at Boeing is a key here, not MCAS design. Until that is addressed, 737MAX should not be back in the air, and I see zero admission from Boeing that their system is broken. God knows what else they did break in that time (gremlins in the new 777 as well?).
 
bgm
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 6:19 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
This happens every time their is a high profile crash. I remember the DC-10 hysteria in the late 1970's.

Boeing made mistakes with the max but they do not build unsafe aircraft. Neither does Airbus. The problems will be fixed. People need to chill. Nobody wanted or expected this to happen.


You see, this sort of attitude is why Boeing is in the mess they're in. Make no mistake: Boeing has serious, systemic issues that have resulted in the loss of hundreds of innocent lives.

It's actually pretty disgusting to see Boeing (and many Americans on this board) continue to defend the indefensible in the face of so much mounting evidence. :sarcastic:
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777Jet
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 6:40 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
777Jet wrote:
I know Lion Air has a shocking safety record, but their pilots did not know what they were dealing with so that gets them off the hook entirely. They probably never heard of MCAS. The Ethiopian pilots followed Boeing's new procedures after the Lion Air crash and the plane still crashed itself. That paints a bad story about the plane (Boeing).

Yes, Boeing did made a mistake in not providing additional redundancies in the system but they're definitely not the first company to do so. If one were to dig into past history even Airbus can be said to have committed such errors before.


Very true, however, this time the boundaries were pushed too far and look at the consequences for all involved.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
777Jet wrote:
I know Lion Air has a shocking safety record, but their pilots did not know what they were dealing with so that gets them off the hook entirely. They probably never heard of MCAS. The Ethiopian pilots followed Boeing's new procedures after the Lion Air crash and the plane still crashed itself. That paints a bad story about the plane (Boeing).


It's rather telling that the Lion Air aircraft had a similar problem on the previous flight, but the pilots on that flight was able to save the plane & land safely.


I originally asked (after the crash) why that aircraft was allowed the fly again so soon? What was done to check the re-occurring problem between flights? We got answers from Mandala. Also, why one crew were able to fly on and land and why one crew crashed? But, perhaps the first crew that landed just thought to turn of the trim and guessed right? Given what the plane was doing that seems like a reasonable guess in that situation even if they didn't know about MCAS?

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
777Jet wrote:
I know Lion Air has a shocking safety record, but their pilots did not know what they were dealing with so that gets them off the hook entirely. They probably never heard of MCAS. The Ethiopian pilots followed Boeing's new procedures after the Lion Air crash and the plane still crashed itself. That paints a bad story about the plane (Boeing).


Ethiopian pilots is now known not to have followed Boeing's new procedures to the letter, and again the story didn't get as much attention. This is why I feel the story is overblown and that the plane itself, while having flaws, isn't exactly the dangerous killer that the media & the uninformed public would like to believe it is.


With the one AoA sensor and the 10 seconds on 5 seconds off of MCAS control it does seem very poorly thought of. The not telling airlines / pilots and doing things in the interest of keeping training costs down was also a poor decision. The plane is not a dangerous killer, it has a few flaws that will be fixed, the Killer is Boeing based on decisions they made. I am still a Boeing fan and prefer Boeing planes but now more details have come out on this it looks worse Boeing. But, as B and A have a duopoly, they will be in an easy position to get back to business. It's not like A can pick up the slack or there are other capable competitors to ruin Boeing. Boeing will be fine in the end. Hopefully they learn and hopefully this is the last 737. A new plane soon would put Boeing back in the game and then shift pressure to A.
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Asiaflyer
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 6:50 am

Looks like Boeing is not yet ready to make the needed cultural change as the CEO is still in denial.
The day Muilenburg admits that Boeing screwed up big time and is ready for a change, Boeing will turn the corner and be on the right path again.
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marcelh
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 6:55 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
impilot wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

I have to agree. The media is taking things out of proportion at the moment.

Yes, 300 people died, but the verdict on the cause of their deaths is still months away. Maybe Boeing shoulder some of the responsibility, maybe the pilot shoulder a bit of that same responsibility, maybe the airlines share some of the responsibility as well, but until the reports are released all that we have now is conjecture.

Oh we have a lot more than conjecture at this point...


Unless you're actually involved with the matter, you can't say for certain that what you have is hard facts.

In any case, I would think simple logic applies - if Boeing planes truly are unsafe, wouldn't we see more Boeing planes falling off the skies?

Those unsafe planes are grounded. Those pilots are perfectly able to fly the 737NG.
 
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 7:12 am

marcelh wrote:
Those unsafe planes are grounded. Those pilots are perfectly able to fly the 737NG.


So too the pilots of Air France 447 were perfectly able to fly the A330, but that didn't stop them from flying one into the ground.

Humans are prone to make mistakes.
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B777LRF
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 7:30 am

I was once involved directly with Boeing sales- and management during the process of purchasing, specifying and delivering a new aircraft. The level of arrogance was astonishing, as was the technical incompetence of their managers. Whenever we met with an actual engineer, we could have meaningful, technical and highly satisfactory discussions, always looking for the optimum solution for the operator. But once the managers got involved, it all turned political and the arrogance was so thick you could cut through it. The engineers knew they were good at building aircraft, and recognised we knew more about how they should work in real life operations. The managers, however, were convinced they knew everything better than anyone, armed with an MBA and a couple of years working for Boeing.
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Dutchy
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 7:36 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
This happens every time their is a high profile crash. I remember the DC-10 hysteria in the late 1970's.

Boeing made mistakes with the max but they do not build unsafe aircraft. Neither does Airbus. The problems will be fixed. People need to chill. Nobody wanted or expected this to happen.


For this tread I wanted to look at the safety culture within Boeing. There seem to be multiple of issues involving Boeing safety culture. So that's why I am asking if it is systemic problem. The MAX will be fixed, sure, and will be a fine aircraft.
Safety, as with everything, is in the end a compromise. So has the safety pushed to far away to make more profit.
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marcelh
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 8:08 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Those unsafe planes are grounded. Those pilots are perfectly able to fly the 737NG.


Humans are prone to make mistakes.

Why are those humans perfectly able to fly the NG safely, but crashed two MAX within 5 months?
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 8:40 am

Dutchy wrote:
For this tread I wanted to look at the safety culture within Boeing. There seem to be multiple of issues involving Boeing safety culture. So that's why I am asking if it is systemic problem. The MAX will be fixed, sure, and will be a fine aircraft.
Safety, as with everything, is in the end a compromise. So has the safety pushed to far away to make more profit.


During my time working for a company that supplied multiple aerospace businesses, I saw an extremely safety conscious culture, more so than any business I've interacted with (including several foreign manufacturers). However, that does not guarantee there aren't holes in an organization as large as Boeing. Any given aircraft program has hundreds of teams focusing on the numerous different systems an aircraft has, and all the functions involved in designing, building, testing, and supporting it. All the teams have to uphold their responsibilities for safety to close any holes.
 
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777Jet
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 9:12 am

Here is another link to the 60 Minuets clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QytfYyHm ... e=youtu.be

Maybe this works better.
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rheinwaldner
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 9:18 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
In any case, I would think simple logic applies - if Boeing planes truly are unsafe, wouldn't we see more Boeing planes falling off the skies?

How many would convince you? As two right after EIS seem not to be enough for you. Bringing the MAX a safety record, which is so bad, that it is unheard since the 1960's...
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keesje
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 9:53 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
777Jet wrote:
I know Lion Air has a shocking safety record, but their pilots did not know what they were dealing with so that gets them off the hook entirely. They probably never heard of MCAS. The Ethiopian pilots followed Boeing's new procedures after the Lion Air crash and the plane still crashed itself. That paints a bad story about the plane (Boeing).


It's rather telling that the Lion Air aircraft had a similar problem on the previous flight, but the pilots on that flight was able to save the plane & land safely. Unfortunately this story doesn't get as much attention in the media as all the other stories about the MAX. Similarly, the pilots of the Ethiopian pilots is now known not to have followed Boeing's new procedures to the letter, and again the story didn't get as much attention. This is why I feel the story is overblown and that the plane itself, while having flaws, isn't exactly the dangerous killer that the media & the uninformed public would like to believe it is.

Yes, Boeing did made a mistake in not providing additional redundancies in the system but they're definitely not the first company to do so. If one were to dig into past history even Airbus can be said to have committed such errors before.

ELBOB wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
This happens every time their is a high profile crash. I remember the DC-10 hysteria in the late 1970's.


It wasn't hysteria back then - it was a valid response to numerous design issues and shortcuts taken by MDC in order to 'beat' Lockheed into flight and into service. And it's not hysteria now, in uncannily similar circumstances where Boeing decided that it had to 'compete' with Airbus.


The late 70s hysteria was brought on by AA191, which turned out to be a maintenance issue on the part of American which had used a non-approved engine removal method.


It seems Boeing underestimated the MCAS functionality in the first place & the FAA wasn't well aware of the details, or got the wrong details (MCAS authority).

https://airlinerwatch.com/boeing-never-tested-aoa-sensor-malfunctions-sources-claim/
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SteelChair
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 10:05 am

Boeing is in crisis. Place these crashes in context with all the other problems of the last 15 years......787 years late.....748 commercial failure.....KC46 years late and way over budget/commercial failure. And the unions have been compliant the last few years, they can't blame labor. And the state and local governments have given massive tax breaks, they can't blame the government. Imho the entire top executive group should be replaced. The sooner the better. Full crisis mode. Mho
 
kalvado
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 11:55 am

honestly speaking, I don't see problems one wouldn't expect to find in a huge company. They argued with FAA about required improvements? Yeah, those are good ideas - but NG is damn safe, so the problem is only that bad. ARs are pressured by the management? You can assume that the second you learn about the system. Some software function slipped away and that was presented as a feature, not as a bug? Welcome to software development.
Safety requirements are often ridiculous- and my impression always was that they are so strict that things are still safe after a portion of it is ignored, and you can get away with it as long as actual numbers show no problems.
Now when you really screw up - like get some dead bodies - each and every issue gets looked at, and there is no more tolerance to enjoy.
Boeing could avert some of it by taking things more seriously after JT crash, or even fully accepting responsibility after ET crash. at some point they did say "we own it", but last CEO interview was along the lines "we own it but..."
Now a steam roller will go over the company - and more than once. There is no limit for consequences anymore.
 
agill
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 11:56 am

777Jet wrote:
Here is another link to the 60 Minuets clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QytfYyHm ... e=youtu.be

Maybe this works better.


The simulator bits are pretty scary.

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