filipinoavgeek
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:16 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Boeing is in crisis. Place these crashes in context with all the other problems of the last 15 years......787 years late.....748 commercial failure.....KC46 years late and way over budget/commercial failure. And the unions have been compliant the last few years, they can't blame labor. And the state and local governments have given massive tax breaks, they can't blame the government. Imho the entire top executive group should be replaced. The sooner the better. Full crisis mode. Mho


So if Boeing for you is in crisis, what do you call Airbus then? Not being a fanboy (I'm not a fanboy of either A or B), but Boeing has had their share of ups and downs, the same can be said for Airbus (A320neo family selling like hotcakes, A350 doing well, but A380 having an embarrassing end).
 
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seahawk
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:19 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Boeing is in crisis. Place these crashes in context with all the other problems of the last 15 years......787 years late.....748 commercial failure.....KC46 years late and way over budget/commercial failure. And the unions have been compliant the last few years, they can't blame labor. And the state and local governments have given massive tax breaks, they can't blame the government. Imho the entire top executive group should be replaced. The sooner the better. Full crisis mode. Mho


So if Boeing for you is in crisis, what do you call Airbus then? Not being a fanboy (I'm not a fanboy of either A or B), but Boeing has had their share of ups and downs, the same can be said for Airbus (A320neo family selling like hotcakes, A350 doing well, but A380 having an embarrassing end).


If you need to compare Boeing with Airbus, it shows that Boeing is in a crisis. Boeing should be the unchallenged global leader in commercial aviation.
 
hooverman
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:22 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
hooverman wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
This happens every time their is a high profile crash. I remember the DC-10 hysteria in the late 1970's.

Boeing made mistakes with the max but they do not build unsafe aircraft. Neither does Airbus. The problems will be fixed. People need to chill. Nobody wanted or expected this to happen.


People don’t need to chill they need to take accountability.


No. People need to chill and get the facts before jumping to stupid or biased conclusions. The full story will come out. Too many are allowing bias or hatred to color their judgment. I have neither blamed the pilots, airlines, or Boeing. I will wait for the facts.


Fact is 2 Max’s crashed. Max is grounded because the plane is unsafe due to hardware/software.
Fact is Boeing employees complain about the safety culture.
What’s there to chill about?
Boeing needs to take accountability and sort their management out.
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:22 pm

seahawk wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Boeing is in crisis. Place these crashes in context with all the other problems of the last 15 years......787 years late.....748 commercial failure.....KC46 years late and way over budget/commercial failure. And the unions have been compliant the last few years, they can't blame labor. And the state and local governments have given massive tax breaks, they can't blame the government. Imho the entire top executive group should be replaced. The sooner the better. Full crisis mode. Mho


So if Boeing for you is in crisis, what do you call Airbus then? Not being a fanboy (I'm not a fanboy of either A or B), but Boeing has had their share of ups and downs, the same can be said for Airbus (A320neo family selling like hotcakes, A350 doing well, but A380 having an embarrassing end).


If you need to compare Boeing with Airbus, it shows that Boeing is in a crisis. Boeing should be the unchallenged global leader in commercial aviation.


Pretty sure no one likes a monopoly though: if anything, Boeing (or Airbus) being challenged is a good thing because it would force either or both to react and innovate.
 
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cougar15
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:40 pm

Boeing is a great company with a superb product! Things went wrong last time round, sadly with a big human toll! No matter if you are an A or B fanboy, as an aviation enthusiast, this whole affair is simply sad and tragic.

The Max will be sorted.... in time.... , although I expect (global) regulatory oversight will change going forward.

The big question I have is how this will influence the 777X?
There is a lot of ´grandfathering´ involved in it´s certification, how will that work/be resolved at this cruitial time of the frame´s development?
I think sadly, for the industry there are a lot of issues on the horizon yet to be resolved!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
Aviation737
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:44 pm

People here are making it seem that Boeing purposely made the MAX unsafe for the sake of profit which I think is complete bullshit. Even if Boeing was to only care about the profit they wouldn't have forsaken safety either since all this bad PR isn't making them any at all. Not to mention Boeing should know this first hand. Which is why I really think it is an honest mistake and not some corporate greed. I can bet that everyone in Boeing from the engineers to the CEO would have stopped the MAX programme if they can foresee what happens in the future. They really did think that the MCAS would not become a safety issue at all and is no need for concern. However, does that clear the blame from Boeing at all? Obviously not, they still failed at their jobs but I don't think they should be judged on malpractice but on negligence instead. I have complete trust in Boeing that the issue will be fixed and the MAX will be as safe as any other aircraft out there.

Here's a great video from a 737 pilot dispelling myths about the MAX
: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD0JabYjF3A
 
SEU
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:47 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
hooverman wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
This happens every time their is a high profile crash. I remember the DC-10 hysteria in the late 1970's.

Boeing made mistakes with the max but they do not build unsafe aircraft. Neither does Airbus. The problems will be fixed. People need to chill. Nobody wanted or expected this to happen.


People don’t need to chill they need to take accountability.


No. People need to chill and get the facts before jumping to stupid or biased conclusions. The full story will come out. Too many are allowing bias or hatred to color their judgment. I have neither blamed the pilots, airlines, or Boeing. I will wait for the facts.


What was your feelings when the FACTS confirmed that boeing new about the system issue a long time ago, now 2 MAXs have flown nose first into the ground with that system playing a major part?

Or is your thoughts to that "need more facts".

Open your eyes. Boeing effed up and its cost the lives of hundreds of people and affected thousands of people.
 
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DL717
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:52 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Boeing is in crisis. Place these crashes in context with all the other problems of the last 15 years......787 years late.....748 commercial failure.....KC46 years late and way over budget/commercial failure. And the unions have been compliant the last few years, they can't blame labor. And the state and local governments have given massive tax breaks, they can't blame the government. Imho the entire top executive group should be replaced. The sooner the better. Full crisis mode. Mho


Boeing isn’t in crisis. Good grief. That said, shame on the bean counters for not simply going with a new bird. The 737 is done and has been since they rolled out the scimitar. After that it was time to move on to a new narrowbody. They’ve now wasted 7 years on a program, that even if delayed would be close to roll out with all the design work that’s already sitting on servers. Airbus didn’t have the capacity to roll out enough neo’s to make a competitive difference. That’s just being stupid. They could have clobbered the neo.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:56 pm

F9Animal wrote:
I will also stand up against those blaming the pilots here. Pure hogwash! Those pilots fought for every inch they could to save their lives, and those souls on board. I firmly believe the top brass should face criminal charges for this. I know if I had lost a loved one on either of those flights, the big wigs wouldn't have enough body guards to stop me from pursuing justice.

They are not boxers, it's not a question of how hard they fought, it's a question of whether or not they followed the right procedures.

Anyone who needs to bring visions of dead people and accusations of murder into the discussion really does need to chill, IMHO.

As for safety culture, I am sympathetic to the clams in the ST article that the shift from the DER to the AR system gives Boeing too much ability to control the certification process.

I think the DER system offered more safety and much less exposure to management pressure and/or retribution.

I'm hoping the international agencies being brought in to review the situation make it clear that the AR system is not acceptable and the DER system should be put back in to place.

I've noted before that Boeing is taking a big risk by treating this as a MAX defect and ignoring pressure to look at its entire development and certification process.

The risk is that the international community will not find the software change on its own an acceptable solution to the problem.

If so, Boeing will have wasted months following the wrong strategy.

The real question is will the international community have the clout to make Boeing do something meaningfully different in terms of its development and certification processes?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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BlatantEcho
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:58 pm

I wonder how everyone would be reacting if they couldn't post instantly on the Internet.
Do you all really think beating a dead horse over and over makes it truth?

Boeing is a business, and business owned by people (as all businesses are).
It is not good for any business to have a product that fails.
Boeing will go back and figure out what process / systems / operations contributed to that failure.


That's it.

--
Everyone loves to get so utterly self-righteous about airplane crashes.
They happen. Still.
You guys over think this stuff and the bar is set so low to post drivel online.
 
Absynth
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 1:35 pm

I'm laughing at the amount of denial in this thread that Boeing is not in crisis. The bar for that is set quite high by some!

Although they are not in direct threat of financial bankruptcy and would probably be bailed out anyhow, it's pretty clear by now the company is in fact morally bankrupt. The way they are effing up their reputation puts the current status quo of the duopoly in jeopardy.

The carriers are holding their cards to their chest until the MAX is ungrounded and people start flying in them again. But if carriers / or the public continues to shun the MAX, or worse, Boeing stays their current course with more revelations, this could turn really ugly for them.
 
hooverman
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 1:37 pm

BlatantEcho wrote:
I wonder how everyone would be reacting if they couldn't post instantly on the Internet.
Do you all really think beating a dead horse over and over makes it truth?

Boeing is a business, and business owned by people (as all businesses are).
It is not good for any business to have a product that fails.
Boeing will go back and figure out what process / systems / operations contributed to that failure.


That's it.

--
Everyone loves to get so utterly self-righteous about airplane crashes.
They happen. Still.
You guys over think this stuff and the bar is set so low to post drivel online.


Try to read some of the posted articles about the safety culture at Boeing before getting on your high horse.

The corporate defending here is misplaced.
 
B764er
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:13 pm

I hope A is watching and doing any corrections to their processes is necessary. Never put profits over safety!
 
Junction
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:36 pm

xmp125a wrote:
The MCAS v1 is so crazily incompetent, murderous design


Murderous design? What's the motive?
 
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RL777
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:43 pm

seahawk wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Boeing is in crisis. Place these crashes in context with all the other problems of the last 15 years......787 years late.....748 commercial failure.....KC46 years late and way over budget/commercial failure. And the unions have been compliant the last few years, they can't blame labor. And the state and local governments have given massive tax breaks, they can't blame the government. Imho the entire top executive group should be replaced. The sooner the better. Full crisis mode. Mho


So if Boeing for you is in crisis, what do you call Airbus then? Not being a fanboy (I'm not a fanboy of either A or B), but Boeing has had their share of ups and downs, the same can be said for Airbus (A320neo family selling like hotcakes, A350 doing well, but A380 having an embarrassing end).


If you need to compare Boeing with Airbus, it shows that Boeing is in a crisis. Boeing should be the unchallenged global leader in commercial aviation.


The best bit of this thread is that statement. Not sure why you feel Boeing should or ever will again be the "unchallenged global leader", there are essentially no industries where one company carries a monopoly.
 
bgm
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:49 pm

Junction wrote:
xmp125a wrote:
The MCAS v1 is so crazily incompetent, murderous design


Murderous design? What's the motive?


Money.
████ ███ █ ███████ ██ █ █████ ██ ████ [redacted]
 
Junction
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:55 pm

bgm wrote:
Junction wrote:
xmp125a wrote:
The MCAS v1 is so crazily incompetent, murderous design


Murderous design? What's the motive?


Money.


Highly doubtful the MCAS was designed to murder people. How is money made by murdering passengers on airplanes anyway?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 4:38 pm

Aviation737 wrote:
People here are making it seem that Boeing purposely made the MAX unsafe for the sake of profit which I think is complete bullshit.


Literally nobody has said this. What people are saying is that Boeing focust more on profits, and that in turn has lowered the bar on safety. And people question that attitude towards their business. I gave you some examples, not just the MAX, but other incidents as well. This paints a picture where there is a systemic culture focust on speed instead of safety. Do you feel those incidents are just that and nothing systemic is going on here?

Aviation737 wrote:
Here's a great video from a 737 pilot dispelling myths about the MAX
: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD0JabYjF3A


The video is outdated, more information has serviced and that was not good for Boeing.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
xmp125a
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 4:55 pm

Junction wrote:
xmp125a wrote:
The MCAS v1 is so crazily incompetent, murderous design


Murderous design? What's the motive?


Murderous in a sense that it acts as wanting to kill the passengers. I am lost for words why it was declared not safety critical...
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 5:28 pm

B777LRF wrote:
I was once involved directly with Boeing sales- and management during the process of purchasing, specifying and delivering a new aircraft. The level of arrogance was astonishing, as was the technical incompetence of their managers. Whenever we met with an actual engineer, we could have meaningful, technical and highly satisfactory discussions, always looking for the optimum solution for the operator. But once the managers got involved, it all turned political and the arrogance was so thick you could cut through it. The engineers knew they were good at building aircraft, and recognised we knew more about how they should work in real life operations. The managers, however, were convinced they knew everything better than anyone, armed with an MBA and a couple of years working for Boeing.


Sadly it's hard to tell them apart these days as a lot of their engineering and technical crews have MBAs too.

B764er wrote:
I hope A is watching and doing any corrections to their processes is necessary. Never put profits over safety!


There are always lessons for the OEMs in mishaps like these. Again sadly, they rarely learn. Airbus flight test crashes (A400m and A330) and Gulfstream (G650) just a few examples of what can happen when you fail to scrutinise properly and rush things through.

Unfortunately for the families involved, a fundamentally flawed aircraft was certified and pressed into service. Boeing will definitely learn from this.

My greatest concern is how the FAA has lost its spine and has been a back seat passenger through the whole certification process. This was something that I hinted at following the Lionair crash. When you have a revolving door with people like Ali Bahrami flip flopping between Boeing (Industry) and FAA assignments there will be conflicts of interest. This can not be allowed to continue.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 6:13 pm

RL777 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:

So if Boeing for you is in crisis, what do you call Airbus then? Not being a fanboy (I'm not a fanboy of either A or B), but Boeing has had their share of ups and downs, the same can be said for Airbus (A320neo family selling like hotcakes, A350 doing well, but A380 having an embarrassing end).


If you need to compare Boeing with Airbus, it shows that Boeing is in a crisis. Boeing should be the unchallenged global leader in commercial aviation.


The best bit of this thread is that statement. Not sure why you feel Boeing should or ever will again be the "unchallenged global leader", there are essentially no industries where one company carries a monopoly.


It is not about having a commercial monopoly, it is about the mindset. If your only excuse for problems is that the competition is not doing better, you have a problem in your own company. If you goal is only to not be worse than the competition and you are not aiming to be the best in the world, this is no longer the Boeing of old, it is just another MBA run cooperation.
 
greendot
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Mon May 06, 2019 6:18 pm

Galwayman wrote:
Not only are there legitimate questions about Boeing’s safety culture , the question now arises if the FAA can be trusted as a reliable international safety authority .

The question also arises why the NYT was running smear articles against Indonesian pilots

Three institutions - Boeing , the FAA and the NYT have signification questions to answer


The question is... why should anyone TRUST the FAA, ever?

The FAA is not there for safety. They are there to promote aviation commerce and to regulate. The NTSB is there for safety. The NTSB makes recommendations and the FAA can choose to accept or reject. While we're at it, remember the FDA and EPA also are there more as controlled opposition rather than being on your side. No one is truly on your side other than yourself. What we need is a system where corporations do not have the same the power as the rest of us. Safety first is a myth.
 
greendot
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 6:22 pm

seahawk wrote:
RL777 wrote:
seahawk wrote:

If you need to compare Boeing with Airbus, it shows that Boeing is in a crisis. Boeing should be the unchallenged global leader in commercial aviation.


The best bit of this thread is that statement. Not sure why you feel Boeing should or ever will again be the "unchallenged global leader", there are essentially no industries where one company carries a monopoly.


It is not about having a commercial monopoly, it is about the mindset. If your only excuse for problems is that the competition is not doing better, you have a problem in your own company. If you goal is only to not be worse than the competition and you are not aiming to be the best in the world, this is no longer the Boeing of old, it is just another MBA run cooperation.


Boeing was once a proud company 50 years ago under the leadership of engineers and scientists. They were much much much smarter than your average MBA who can only juggle existing resources -- they cannot innovate. This is why Boeing's only real progress has been their outsourcing every aspect of airplane making. They merely assemble airplanes now. That's the loser philosophy that got us the 787 (reference Al Jazeera documentary). MBAs can manage, they cannot lead. There's a big difference. MBAs will usually choose to degrade safety levels down to "acceptable" levels because a cost benefit analysis says so. Until it becomes too politically and economically expense to skip on safety, Boeing's MBA mindset will never change.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 7:22 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Boeing is in crisis. Place these crashes in context with all the other problems of the last 15 years......787 years late.....748 commercial failure.....KC46 years late and way over budget/commercial failure. And the unions have been compliant the last few years, they can't blame labor. And the state and local governments have given massive tax breaks, they can't blame the government. Imho the entire top executive group should be replaced. The sooner the better. Full crisis mode. Mho


So if Boeing for you is in crisis, what do you call Airbus then? Not being a fanboy (I'm not a fanboy of either A or B), but Boeing has had their share of ups and downs, the same can be said for Airbus (A320neo family selling like hotcakes, A350 doing well, but A380 having an embarrassing end).


Who said anything about Airbus? They have their own problems and mistakes, some of them huge (A380). This thread is about Boeing, and IMHO Boeing is in full blown, over the top, crisis.

And I don't consider myself a fanboy of either. Boeing's great contributions of the last 30 years were ETOPS and then the 777 imho. They absolutely led the way. That Boeing is apparently gone.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 8:15 pm

greendot wrote:
Boeing was once a proud company 50 years ago under the leadership of engineers and scientists. They were much much much smarter than your average MBA who can only juggle existing resources -- they cannot innovate. This is why Boeing's only real progress has been their outsourcing every aspect of airplane making. They merely assemble airplanes now. That's the loser philosophy that got us the 787 (reference Al Jazeera documentary). MBAs can manage, they cannot lead. There's a big difference. MBAs will usually choose to degrade safety levels down to "acceptable" levels because a cost benefit analysis says so. Until it becomes too politically and economically expense to skip on safety, Boeing's MBA mindset will never change.

Are you saying that Airbus does not innovate?
For whatever reason, I thought the twin widebody, increasing usage of composite material on civilian aircraft, 2-man cockpit on long-range, fly-by-wire on civilian aircraft & wild frequency AC systems were all pioneered by Airbus; maybe I'm wrong seeing you're saying they do not innovate. Then, if it wasn't innovation, why did Boeing follow suit (and improved on it)?
 
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flyingphil
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 8:18 pm

Warren Buffett — ‘It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that you'll do things differently.’

The perception is that Boeing has its fingers in its ears humming la la la and after a simple software fix the 737MAX's will be back in the air and it will be business as usual.

Boeing appear to be in denial about the damage it is doing to its reputation. The CEO needs to step up and make some tough decisions, even call a halt to production and admit they got it wrong. The steady drip drip drip of stories leaking out from whistleblowers is trashing its reputation.

So what happens next?

Just convincing the FAA that the 737MAX is safe to fly again won’t be easy…. Then you have all the other regulators across the globe, they wont just roll over and take the FAA’s word for it.

Ok the public have short memories... but there seems to be real anger from the pilots and a suspicion that there are other systems in play that they have not been told about.

This does suggest that there are issues with the safety culture at Boeing. Maybe the management in Chicago need to spend more time in Seattle?
 
greendot
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 9:00 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
greendot wrote:
Boeing was once a proud company 50 years ago under the leadership of engineers and scientists. They were much much much smarter than your average MBA who can only juggle existing resources -- they cannot innovate. This is why Boeing's only real progress has been their outsourcing every aspect of airplane making. They merely assemble airplanes now. That's the loser philosophy that got us the 787 (reference Al Jazeera documentary). MBAs can manage, they cannot lead. There's a big difference. MBAs will usually choose to degrade safety levels down to "acceptable" levels because a cost benefit analysis says so. Until it becomes too politically and economically expense to skip on safety, Boeing's MBA mindset will never change.

Are you saying that Airbus does not innovate?
For whatever reason, I thought the twin widebody, increasing usage of composite material on civilian aircraft, 2-man cockpit on long-range, fly-by-wire on civilian aircraft & wild frequency AC systems were all pioneered by Airbus; maybe I'm wrong seeing you're saying they do not innovate. Then, if it wasn't innovation, why did Boeing follow suit (and improved on it)?


I'm saying that Boeing started outsourcing and spreading risk. It's an idea that Boeing's MBA's came up with and it's what led to all the 787 quality problems. It was a poorly executed business plan that really needed significant industrial engineering and quality management practices.

I'm also saying that it's MBA's that can't innovate... they're not smart enough to. They just manage. All the MBA's in the world wouldn't have dreamed up the 747, much less designed it. But, anyone could be an MBA and manage something already in place.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 9:43 pm

Quoting myself from the Nordstar overrun thread.

The rate at which the B737NGs are overrunning contaminated runways is concerning.
We are seeing a rate of over one per month.
Garuda in November, Southwest in December, United in January, Ethiopian in January, Lion Air in February, Westjet in April, Spicejet in April, Miami Air in April, Nordstar in May.

Do you see a pattern?
When will be the next one and will everyone get out safely?

This is not a matter to laugh about, this is becoming a major concern.


I wonder if pilots have the correct data at their disposal for landing performance calculations. And if so, whether the data is conservative enough to include enough margin.
 
kipfilet
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 9:54 pm

"Boeing SC lets mechanics inspect their own work, leading to repeated mistakes, workers say"
https://www.postandcourier.com/business ... 7eb85.html

Sounds like there are HUGE issues with their safety culture
 
RobertPhoenix
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture

Mon May 06, 2019 9:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
777Jet wrote:
This 60 Minutes Australia entire episode aired last night about Boeing and the 737 Max.

http://www.9now.com.au/60-minutes/2019/episode-14

""Liz Hayes investigates the disaster of Boeing's 737 MAX jetliner. Why two supposedly state-of-the-art and safe planes crashed killing 346 people; why pilots now fear flying the 737 MAX; & whether Boeing could have averted the catastrophes.""

I found it quite interesting.


can't see it, outside Australia it is blocked.

Google for Australia proxy server.
 
smartplane
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Mon May 06, 2019 10:22 pm

cougar15 wrote:
Boeing is a great company with a superb product! Things went wrong last time round, sadly with a big human toll! No matter if you are an A or B fanboy, as an aviation enthusiast, this whole affair is simply sad and tragic.

The Max will be sorted.... in time.... , although I expect (global) regulatory oversight will change going forward.

The big question I have is how this will influence the 777X?
There is a lot of ´grandfathering´ involved in it´s certification, how will that work/be resolved at this cruitial time of the frame´s development?
I think sadly, for the industry there are a lot of issues on the horizon yet to be resolved!

Both B & A will not want to see airworthiness authorities attention to extend either backwards to existing models, or forward to new models. Both will want investigations 100% quarantined to the MAX.

As the FAA delegated AR process applies to design, grandfathering and FAR compliance / exemptions, as well as certification and testing, the 777X could well warrant close scrutiny, as could new iterations of the A320 and A350 families.

This could result in aircraft designed and certified before 2020, being treated differently (more cost), in respect to upgrades and modifications (for example, freighter conversions), versus aircraft certified post-2020.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Tue May 07, 2019 1:29 am

greendot wrote:
seahawk wrote:
RL777 wrote:

The best bit of this thread is that statement. Not sure why you feel Boeing should or ever will again be the "unchallenged global leader", there are essentially no industries where one company carries a monopoly.


It is not about having a commercial monopoly, it is about the mindset. If your only excuse for problems is that the competition is not doing better, you have a problem in your own company. If you goal is only to not be worse than the competition and you are not aiming to be the best in the world, this is no longer the Boeing of old, it is just another MBA run cooperation.


Boeing was once a proud company 50 years ago under the leadership of engineers and scientists. They were much much much smarter than your average MBA who can only juggle existing resources -- they cannot innovate. This is why Boeing's only real progress has been their outsourcing every aspect of airplane making. They merely assemble airplanes now. That's the loser philosophy that got us the 787 (reference Al Jazeera documentary). MBAs can manage, they cannot lead. There's a big difference. MBAs will usually choose to degrade safety levels down to "acceptable" levels because a cost benefit analysis says so. Until it becomes too politically and economically expense to skip on safety, Boeing's MBA mindset will never change.


Surely you are aware that Boeing is in fact pulling a lot of airplane components back in house.

Surely you are also aware that, after a challenging start, the 787 is turning out to be an incredibly safe, reliable, well performing airplane.

Some of your post is not accurate.

No-one intentionally skips on safety, but I grant that there are a lot of Beancounters at Boeing who know nothing about nothing other than trying make their own political agendas look good.

Clear safety problems will be fixed without question. Boeing has a very rigorous Safety Review Process. Most likely if the only thing that had occurred was the day before Lion Air near miss, MCAS would have been fixed just based off an investigation of that incident.

However, all too often the employees have to go fight idiot beancounter mid-level managers to try to get them to do the right thing for the customer for lesser stuff.
 
greendot
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Tue May 07, 2019 1:44 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
greendot wrote:
seahawk wrote:

It is not about having a commercial monopoly, it is about the mindset. If your only excuse for problems is that the competition is not doing better, you have a problem in your own company. If you goal is only to not be worse than the competition and you are not aiming to be the best in the world, this is no longer the Boeing of old, it is just another MBA run cooperation.


Boeing was once a proud company 50 years ago under the leadership of engineers and scientists. They were much much much smarter than your average MBA who can only juggle existing resources -- they cannot innovate. This is why Boeing's only real progress has been their outsourcing every aspect of airplane making. They merely assemble airplanes now. That's the loser philosophy that got us the 787 (reference Al Jazeera documentary). MBAs can manage, they cannot lead. There's a big difference. MBAs will usually choose to degrade safety levels down to "acceptable" levels because a cost benefit analysis says so. Until it becomes too politically and economically expense to skip on safety, Boeing's MBA mindset will never change.


Surely you are aware that Boeing is in fact pulling a lot of airplane components back in house.

Surely you are also aware that, after a challenging start, the 787 is turning out to be an incredibly safe, reliable, well performing airplane.

Some of your post is not accurate.

No-one intentionally skips on safety, but I grant that there are a lot of Beancounters at Boeing who know nothing about nothing other than trying make their own political agendas look good.

Clear safety problems will be fixed without question. Boeing has a very rigorous Safety Review Process. Most likely if the only thing that had occurred was the day before Lion Air near miss, MCAS would have been fixed just based off an investigation of that incident.

However, all too often the employees have to go fight idiot beancounter mid-level managers to try to get them to do the right thing for the customer for lesser stuff.


I don't put it past certain people at Boeing to do less than honorable things. Boeing is just a corporation but the corporation seems to tolerate less than honorable behaviors. Aren't they being investigated criminally?

The original poster painted a very accurate of how things are going on at Boeing. I'm also troubled by the problems that are causing the USAF to reject deliveries of the 767 Tanker.

MBAs at corporations in every sector of industry are complicit in choices that hurt or kill people. The real problem is that the people that get promoted believe in making omelettes by breaking a few eggs. Incidentally, I hate the 737 family but I love the 787, even with its problems. It's to be seen whether a 787 crashes as a result of the manufacturing issues at their east coast plant. Al Jazeera made a really good investigative/undercover report on this. I'm sure you've seen it. They also made a really good one covering the problems with the 737's manufacturing.

https://anonym.to/?https://www.youtube. ... aWdEtANi-0

https://anonym.to/?https://www.youtube. ... vkEpstd9os

One big problem is that with the FAA's SMS system, you'll never hear about any airline incidents as they are effectively hidden unless an airplane crashes. That's also a HUGE problem for anyone trying to analyze problems outside the FAA (which cannot be trusted).
 
WIederling
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Tue May 07, 2019 8:16 am

seahawk wrote:
If you need to compare Boeing with Airbus, it shows that Boeing is in a crisis. Boeing should be the unchallenged global leader in commercial aviation.


Hmm.
they had their time ( mostly on borrowed IP ) when no viable competition was available.

US dominance was a post WWII "trashed European infrastructure" short term effect.
Without creating a similar situation MAGA will have no leverage.
Murphy is an optimist
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Tue May 07, 2019 3:23 pm

As the A380 design went into certification there was a whole lot of screw ups - wiring, wing strengthening, the list seemed endless. As the 787 was rolled out there were fastener shortages, fastener drill hole size problems, batteries, the list seemed endless. I recall the 787 has something like 100,000 lines of code. Each system has to be thought out with a lot of what ifs, but there are always a lot of things that are not thought out.

Boeing has screwed up with the Max big time, but I am sure it was not intentional, the big controller is Boeing has and will be paying a huge price for this screw up. Time will tell if they fix their culture, for decades it was nicknamed the "Lazy B" as a place to work, that does not produce the best of anything.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Tue May 07, 2019 5:45 pm

greendot wrote:
I'm also saying that it's MBA's that can't innovate... they're not smart enough to. They just manage. All the MBA's in the world wouldn't have dreamed up the 747, much less designed it. But, anyone could be an MBA and manage something already in place.


I don't agree with that. A good MBA realizes what kind of company it is running and will act accordingly. A bad MBA will work form quarter to quarter results, not good for a company dependent on long term strategies and investment like building aircraft.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Tue May 07, 2019 7:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
greendot wrote:
I'm also saying that it's MBA's that can't innovate... they're not smart enough to. They just manage. All the MBA's in the world wouldn't have dreamed up the 747, much less designed it. But, anyone could be an MBA and manage something already in place.


I don't agree with that. A good MBA realizes what kind of company it is running and will act accordingly. A bad MBA will work form quarter to quarter results, not good for a company dependent on long term strategies and investment like building aircraft.


The rules have changed in running a company. The long-term viability of a company - so important to people like Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie, the Rockefellers, and even Juan Trippe - is secondary to ensuring massive amounts of profits get shoveled into the pockets of investors. If the company dies two years from now, who cares? The MBA who ruined it will have his/her golden parachute, and he/she will proceed to the next company to do the same thing.

In essence, what is being so very well discussed in this thread (for the most part) is toxic capitalism. It is when the rush to production and determination to achieve an unachievable date becomes the ONLY thing of value, and the risks to human life are outweighed by the MBA who knows nothing - and cares less - of safety and testing.

The Ford automobile company did this with the exploding Pinto in the 70's, figuring it would be cheaper to pay off the relatives of the immolated people burned to death in the car, because a simple fix would have been more expensive.

McDonnell Douglas did the same thing with the DC-10, even after AA flight #96, which showed that there was a horrible yet fixable flaw in the cargo door. Instead of mandating the fix immediately, it was allowed to be phased in, and the Turkish DC-10 crash in 1974 was not supposed to happen. But it did.

And now we have MBA's taking over Boeing saying, "extra safety equipment will ruin our profit margins!", or something to that effect. And THAT is the real crime.

I have full and complete confidence the 737MAX will be fixed and will fly again, once the ridiculous concept of "only one angle indicator is really needed" is dead and buried. Boeing leadership needs to step up, say, "the buck stops here", take full responsibility, train new pilots on these situations, and have at least three sensors indicating the correct angle of pitch.
 
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LAXdenizen
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Tue May 07, 2019 7:34 pm

Absynth wrote:
I'm laughing at the amount of denial in this thread that Boeing is not in crisis. The bar for that is set quite high by some!

Although they are not in direct threat of financial bankruptcy and would probably be bailed out anyhow, it's pretty clear by now the company is in fact morally bankrupt. The way they are effing up their reputation puts the current status quo of the duopoly in jeopardy.

The carriers are holding their cards to their chest until the MAX is ungrounded and people start flying in them again. But if carriers / or the public continues to shun the MAX, or worse, Boeing stays their current course with more revelations, this could turn really ugly for them.


I agree with you 100%. I'll add that the same folks that continue to claim that there is nothing wrong with the MAX and that Boeing is in good standing are the same people who would never, ever fly the SSJ.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Tue May 07, 2019 7:57 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
As the A380 design went into certification there was a whole lot of screw ups - wiring, wing strengthening, the list seemed endless. As the 787 was rolled out there were fastener shortages, fastener drill hole size problems, batteries, the list seemed endless. I recall the 787 has something like 100,000 lines of code. Each system has to be thought out with a lot of what ifs, but there are always a lot of things that are not thought out.

Boeing has screwed up with the Max big time, but I am sure it was not intentional, the big controller is Boeing has and will be paying a huge price for this screw up. Time will tell if they fix their culture, for decades it was nicknamed the "Lazy B" as a place to work, that does not produce the best of anything.


Lazy B came from the shape of the B in Boeing. That’s a a common repeated error.

I’m guessing you know absolutely nothing about working at Boeing yet feel free to imply Boeing employees are lazy and don’t produce good work. I actually find ignorant statements like this kind of offensive.

I watch people, including myself, working their asses off because their is so much work to do. The dead wood is already long gone. I see a lot of high caliber work by very conscientious engineers who would never let anything slip by.

The problem is a lot of the middle level managers.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Tue May 07, 2019 8:51 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
greendot wrote:
I'm also saying that it's MBA's that can't innovate... they're not smart enough to. They just manage. All the MBA's in the world wouldn't have dreamed up the 747, much less designed it. But, anyone could be an MBA and manage something already in place.


I don't agree with that. A good MBA realizes what kind of company it is running and will act accordingly. A bad MBA will work form quarter to quarter results, not good for a company dependent on long term strategies and investment like building aircraft.


The rules have changed in running a company. The long-term viability of a company - so important to people like Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie, the Rockefellers, and even Juan Trippe - is secondary to ensuring massive amounts of profits get shoveled into the pockets of investors. If the company dies two years from now, who cares? The MBA who ruined it will have his/her golden parachute, and he/she will proceed to the next company to do the same thing.

In essence, what is being so very well discussed in this thread (for the most part) is toxic capitalism. It is when the rush to production and determination to achieve an unachievable date becomes the ONLY thing of value, and the risks to human life are outweighed by the MBA who knows nothing - and cares less - of safety and testing.

The Ford automobile company did this with the exploding Pinto in the 70's, figuring it would be cheaper to pay off the relatives of the immolated people burned to death in the car, because a simple fix would have been more expensive.

McDonnell Douglas did the same thing with the DC-10, even after AA flight #96, which showed that there was a horrible yet fixable flaw in the cargo door. Instead of mandating the fix immediately, it was allowed to be phased in, and the Turkish DC-10 crash in 1974 was not supposed to happen. But it did.

And now we have MBA's taking over Boeing saying, "extra safety equipment will ruin our profit margins!", or something to that effect. And THAT is the real crime.

I have full and complete confidence the 737MAX will be fixed and will fly again, once the ridiculous concept of "only one angle indicator is really needed" is dead and buried. Boeing leadership needs to step up, say, "the buck stops here", take full responsibility, train new pilots on these situations, and have at least three sensors indicating the correct angle of pitch.


Not surprisingly, I mostly agree with you. The only thing I would say is that the balance need to return, balance between short term profit and long term survivability, balance between bean counters and engineers, balance between the work floor and people in management. It is always a sign that something is wrong when a company looses touch with its heritage. The decision to move the HQ of Boeing from Settle to Chicago is quite telling. We in the Netherlands have had one such company, Phillips. Moved form its home ground of Eindhoven to Amsterdam, why?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Tue May 07, 2019 10:51 pm

Asiaflyer wrote:
Looks like Boeing is not yet ready to make the needed cultural change as the CEO is still in denial.
The day Muilenburg admits that Boeing screwed up big time and is ready for a change, Boeing will turn the corner and be on the right path again.
Muilenburg had to resign.
 
greendot
Posts: 214
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Wed May 08, 2019 1:05 am

Dutchy wrote:
greendot wrote:
I'm also saying that it's MBA's that can't innovate... they're not smart enough to. They just manage. All the MBA's in the world wouldn't have dreamed up the 747, much less designed it. But, anyone could be an MBA and manage something already in place.


I don't agree with that. A good MBA realizes what kind of company it is running and will act accordingly. A bad MBA will work form quarter to quarter results, not good for a company dependent on long term strategies and investment like building aircraft.


How can you not agree with that?

Does an MBA design a new law of physics that allows design of aircraft?

Did an MBA design the jet engine?

Did an MBA design the first electric airplane?

Does an MBA have the ability to design the I.T. infrastructure needed to run an airline?

Does an MBA have the massive knowledgeset required to pilot aircraft?

MBA's are just managers. They have absolutely no special abilities that anyone can't easily learn. They are highly replaceable. They should be placed in permanently subordinate positions along with other low skillset people. The best people to manage a company are continuous improvement people who have entire methodologies used to model and implement complex operations. However, even these people should be kept at a permanent second level to people with vision and scientific/engineering knowledge. This is the optimal configuration because these types can invent and forecast whereas an MBA really only can understand the bottom line of a financial analysis. A trained monkey can compare A to B and choose a course of action from that. But it takes an innovator to create option C, redefining the entire market around that. Look at how Boeing is just run by MBAs now -- all they can do is take existing inventions and sell them in slightly modified configurations. When is the last time Boeing really innovated? Have they done anything even remotely comparable to making the first jet bomber, the first jet tanker, and the first jet airliner? The best they've been able to do is take existing engineering knowledge and optimize it under financial schemes using sub-contractors in a decentralized way to spread risk. Wow. Meanwhile, guys with engineering knowledge like Elon Musk launch a car into space and land a rocket on a launchpad, all of which he as the CEO or President understands from a scientific capacity. An MBA skillset by itself is nowhere near sufficient in today's world. That's why your average airline still flies craft designed on principles that haven't fundamentally progressed since DaVinci's first sketches. Airplanes still use Bournelli's laws and Newton's laws and are still essentially action-reaction based vehicles. An MBA will never be able to design some new engine exploiting a new law of physics previously unknown.
 
greendot
Posts: 214
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Wed May 08, 2019 1:11 am

Dutchy wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

I don't agree with that. A good MBA realizes what kind of company it is running and will act accordingly. A bad MBA will work form quarter to quarter results, not good for a company dependent on long term strategies and investment like building aircraft.


The rules have changed in running a company. The long-term viability of a company - so important to people like Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie, the Rockefellers, and even Juan Trippe - is secondary to ensuring massive amounts of profits get shoveled into the pockets of investors. If the company dies two years from now, who cares? The MBA who ruined it will have his/her golden parachute, and he/she will proceed to the next company to do the same thing.

In essence, what is being so very well discussed in this thread (for the most part) is toxic capitalism. It is when the rush to production and determination to achieve an unachievable date becomes the ONLY thing of value, and the risks to human life are outweighed by the MBA who knows nothing - and cares less - of safety and testing.

The Ford automobile company did this with the exploding Pinto in the 70's, figuring it would be cheaper to pay off the relatives of the immolated people burned to death in the car, because a simple fix would have been more expensive.

McDonnell Douglas did the same thing with the DC-10, even after AA flight #96, which showed that there was a horrible yet fixable flaw in the cargo door. Instead of mandating the fix immediately, it was allowed to be phased in, and the Turkish DC-10 crash in 1974 was not supposed to happen. But it did.

And now we have MBA's taking over Boeing saying, "extra safety equipment will ruin our profit margins!", or something to that effect. And THAT is the real crime.

I have full and complete confidence the 737MAX will be fixed and will fly again, once the ridiculous concept of "only one angle indicator is really needed" is dead and buried. Boeing leadership needs to step up, say, "the buck stops here", take full responsibility, train new pilots on these situations, and have at least three sensors indicating the correct angle of pitch.


Not surprisingly, I mostly agree with you. The only thing I would say is that the balance need to return, balance between short term profit and long term survivability, balance between bean counters and engineers, balance between the work floor and people in management. It is always a sign that something is wrong when a company looses touch with its heritage. The decision to move the HQ of Boeing from Settle to Chicago is quite telling. We in the Netherlands have had one such company, Phillips. Moved form its home ground of Eindhoven to Amsterdam, why?


There definitely needs to be a balance. You can always take a scientist/engineer and give them MBA skillsets, but you can't really go the other way without significant energy. Most corporations have people who never make themselves educated about STEM (mostly because it requires at least a science or engineering degree) so they live in an MBA myopic world. Successful companies start with STEM-types and give them polishing with business school subject matter. There are always exceptions, but I'm more interested in the standard distribution.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Wed May 08, 2019 1:30 am

RickNRoll wrote:
Asiaflyer wrote:
Looks like Boeing is not yet ready to make the needed cultural change as the CEO is still in denial.
The day Muilenburg admits that Boeing screwed up big time and is ready for a change, Boeing will turn the corner and be on the right path again.
Muilenburg had to resign.


Actually I don’t want to see him resign. Internally he’s trying to get some things back on track, such as with the “Boeing Behaviors” mindset. He’s far better than Condit, Stoneciper, or McSlimeball. I’d be afraid to see who’d replace Dennis. Another greedy clown from 3M who runs the company into the ground for his own gain, again?
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1430
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Wed May 08, 2019 2:20 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
RickNRoll wrote:
Asiaflyer wrote:
Looks like Boeing is not yet ready to make the needed cultural change as the CEO is still in denial.
The day Muilenburg admits that Boeing screwed up big time and is ready for a change, Boeing will turn the corner and be on the right path again.
Muilenburg had to resign.


Actually I don’t want to see him resign. Internally he’s trying to get some things back on track, such as with the “Boeing Behaviors” mindset. He’s far better than Condit, Stoneciper, or McSlimeball. I’d be afraid to see who’d replace Dennis. Another greedy clown from 3M who runs the company into the ground for his own gain, again?


Muilenberg is by far the best CEO since the merger with McD, he arrived in 2015, about 9 months prior to the MAX first flight. Many programs are improving, he is probably the best chance to getting things back running right, but it takes time.
 
acechip
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:22 am

Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Wed May 08, 2019 2:36 am

agill wrote:
777Jet wrote:
Here is another link to the 60 Minuets clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QytfYyHm ... e=youtu.be

Maybe this works better.


The simulator bits are pretty scary.


The simulator video should have really started with the pilot explaining that there would be a case of AOA sensor malfunction, from which point onwards MCAS starts acting up. This is not a given on an everyday basis.
 
OldProp
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:06 pm

Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Wed May 08, 2019 3:16 am

I hate to make this sound too simple, but Boeing is under pressure to produce a lot of airplanes in as little time as possible. Anyone in manufacturing will tell you problems arise, seen and unseen, when these quick(er) deadlines have to be met. New inexperienced employees are hired, corners are cut, and new processes are introduced. And not only that, vendors are also under the gun to supply parts on time. I would bet the farm Boeing has gotten some "bad" parts from them for the same reasons.

Then there is "Lean" manufacturing. Don't get me wrong, lean manufacturing is a proven time and money saver, but it leads to the workers signing off their own work and eliminating that second eye in most cases. So when my boss tells me he needed that job done yesterday, I say it's finished even though it's less than perfect. I want to keep my job. It may, or may not, get looked at further down the production line.

Hopefully Boeing has learned from its recent wakeup call.
 
planecane
Posts: 1073
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Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Wed May 08, 2019 3:27 am

F9Animal wrote:
Quick opinion regarding the MAX tragedies. Every top executive at Boeing that knew about the problems with the MAX should face over 300 counts of murder. Each should face extradition to both Indonesia and Ethopia to stand trial as far as I am concerned.

Make ZERO mistake about it... The top brass of Boeing holds 110,000% responsibility for the safety issues. I worked for Boeing, and I can tell you right now.... They are all about profit, and that's the culture they hold dearly in the tower in Chicago. Ram these planes out, go as Lean as possible, increase production, hurry, and be ethical. Oh, and outsource this, outsource that! Then they cram those stupid "Ethics" training classes on factory workers, because most of the execs have been nailed for violating the ethics standards. Any manager caught sleeping with their secretaries on their desk in the factories are reassigned to "Special Duty" assignments.

None of this falls on any of the plane builders or the engineers. It all falls directly on every top brass at Boeing. Sorry all fan boys of Boeing jets.... But that's the flat truth. The top brass murdered those people! Period.

So don't blame the engineers that designed the system? I can bet that none of the executives had any idea what MCAS was or that it existed until the Lion Air crash. This crap about the execs caring about profit instead of safely is nonsense. A company that sells aircraft can't make a profit if they are unsafe.

What killed those people was bad software design and really bad validation putting pilots in an emergency situation and then those pilots not reacting properly to recover, especially in the case of the ET crash where they knew what they were dealing with. The bad design is the responsibility of the engineers that designed it and the engineering managers that oversaw it.

The executives are responsible for not having good enough engineering and program managers working for them. The execs responsible for oversight of the MAX program should be terminated but nobody is guilty of murder and nobody is getting extradited to Indonesia or Ethiopia.

Your post sounds like you are a disgruntled former employee.
 
greendot
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Wed May 08, 2019 3:30 am

OldProp wrote:
Then there is "Lean" manufacturing. Don't get me wrong, lean manufacturing is a proven time and money saver, but it leads to the workers signing off their own work and eliminating that second eye in most cases. So when my boss tells me he needed that job done yesterday, I say it's finished even though it's less than perfect. I want to keep my job. It may, or may not, get looked at further down the production line.


Lean is a methodology. It prescribes nothing. If your people agree to people signing off their own work and eliminating a second eye, that's a failure of the people in your management and/or frontline worker culture. Lean just identifies waste and provides tools, controls, and measurement of processes. Part of Lean is compliance. If they are not in compliance, they are not following Lean. It sounds like these people would be doing bad things whether or not Lean or some other methodology is used.
 
IADFCO
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?

Wed May 08, 2019 5:02 am

@777Jet: thanks for the link -- it worked here in the US.

Both as a person and as an aerospace engineer working in flight dynamics and control, I found it very hard to watch. 350 people are not supposed to die that way.

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