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Qatara340
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Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 6:05 pm

According to Reuters, MSNBC, and AlJazeera, a plane went down on a flight from Las Vegas to Monterrey. Anybody hear anything on this?
Last edited by atcsundevil on Mon May 06, 2019 8:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title updated
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
Scarebus34
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Re: Plane down from Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 6:07 pm

 
mcdu
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Re: Challenger 600 down from Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 6:18 pm

Flight aware data shows they were showing a 2,000+FPM climb at 40,900. Comparing that to the weather overlayed on the route it would give the impression that was an updraft from flying through the top of a thunderstorm. I don’t believe a challenger would be capable of a normal climb rate of that magnitude at that altitude but a thunderstorm could produce that much lift.

Would hope that is not case. But the track line ends near the weather. If it was a loss of control in a thunderstorm at 40,000’ that would be tragic as it is easily prevented.
 
denkcflyer
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Re: Challenger 600 down from Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 6:19 pm

The past few days have not been great for aviation.

May they RIP.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: Challenger 600 down from Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 6:20 pm

Always happens in threes
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: Plane down from Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 6:23 pm

Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
Karlsands
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Re: Challenger 600 down from Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 6:37 pm

Ionosphere wrote:
Always happens in threes

Seems strangely so, but indeed
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Challenger 600 down from Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 6:53 pm

It’s not a 600; it’s a 601-3A. A pretty old business, I suspect a charter operation. No, no CL-600 series is gonna climb like that above about F250.

GF
 
BravoOne
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Re: Challenger 600 down from Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 8:14 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It’s not a 600; it’s a 601-3A. A pretty old business, I suspect a charter operation. No, no CL-600 series is gonna climb like that above about F250.

GF


Agree, but the sn looked to be a LYC powered Challenger 600, even though the initial data says GE power. Initially a TAG airplane. Wonder if it is a 135 operator out of LAS?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Challenger 600 down from Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 8:40 pm

It’s serial 5043, I think the 600s were 10xx.

GF
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 9:37 pm

Looking at the FR24 data is there, it looks like the aircraft pitched up and stalled and it just went down from there.
 
trnswrld
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 9:48 pm

14 people dead? Wow, this has been a bad year for aviation so far. That would be very scary to get caught in a storm at FL400 and to lose control from that high....if that’s what happened.
 
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airportugal310
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 9:50 pm

Picture of the crashed jet included in this news report:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/mexico-pl ... -las-vegas
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
itisi
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 10:05 pm

Clearly very little or no forward motion....
737-300/400/500 ... are NOT classics :)
 
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ER757
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 10:29 pm

This story on Yahoo says they were descending to avoid a storm then lost radio contact

https://news.yahoo.com/jet-traveling-no ... 56935.html
 
barney captain
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 11:05 pm

itisi wrote:
Clearly very little or no forward motion....


Wow, agreed........pancaked in. Sad..
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Biscayne738
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 06, 2019 11:30 pm

Appears to have been a Part 91 flight. Couldn’t find the aircraft on any aviation booking platforms. Charters customers these days want aircraft 10 years or newer and free WiFi.
 
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tenHangar
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 12:46 am

The deceased include a family of 5 (mom, dad, 3 children) and the girlfriend of the oldest son. The father is described as a manager or engineer at Pemex or Typhoon Offshore which could indicate a Mexican oil & gas industry corporate jet.

Last video of aircraft (before takeoff from Mexico?) - there appears to a plane in same livery behind it:
https://www.infobae.com/america/mexico/ ... monterrey/
 
b747400erf
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 3:48 am

Flying OVER thunderstorms... not smart...
 
VV
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Re: Challenger 600 down from Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 6:30 am

Ionosphere wrote:
Always happens in threes


We are only in Q2. I am afraid the series won't stop at three.
 
tigerzhong13
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 9:42 am

Looks like a deep stall... 132kts at 41000ft is more than unreasonable.
 
AirFiero
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Re: Challenger 600 down from Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 1:12 pm

Ionosphere wrote:
Always happens in threes


But over what period of time?
 
AirFiero
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 1:18 pm

tigerzhong13 wrote:
Looks like a deep stall... 132kts at 41000ft is more than unreasonable.


Stall to a flat spin, maybe?
 
drdisque
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 2:01 pm

Odd that the aircraft is on the American register yet the history shows it almost exclusively flying in Mexico and it seemingly was operated exclusively for a Mexican Oil & Gas group.

Is there a likely insurance or tax reason why the aircraft would be on the American register?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 2:04 pm

Tax reason for a lot of jets (planes) registered in the US and places like IOM, Cayman Is. etc. Also politics and optics.
 
trnswrld
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 2:38 pm

Wow that wreckage picture is startling. To imagine an airplane all the way up at FL400 or higher to land pancaked with what appears to be little to no forward motion. Almost kind of reminds me how AF447 was said to have pancaked into the ocean.
 
reltney
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 2:55 pm

Hey Canadair pilots, does the 600 series have a deep stall issue? Stick pusher? Hail could be at the top of the TZ. Lots a “could haves” in this accident.

Accidents in 3s.. Well, there is a Barron with 6 aboard in Texas and a westwind in Oklahoma , 737 in Jacksonville, Aeroflot , this 600 series..... all in 30 days....... perhaps not...
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 2:55 pm

Very close, notice the intact tail section. The first recovered piece of AF 447 was the tail.


Gf
 
mxaxai
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 3:03 pm

trnswrld wrote:
Wow that wreckage picture is startling. To imagine an airplane all the way up at FL400 or higher to land pancaked with what appears to be little to no forward motion. Almost kind of reminds me how AF447 was said to have pancaked into the ocean.

There was a CRJ-200 that crashed in northern Norway a while back, just a speck on the ground as well.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 3:06 pm

mxaxai wrote:
trnswrld wrote:
Wow that wreckage picture is startling. To imagine an airplane all the way up at FL400 or higher to land pancaked with what appears to be little to no forward motion. Almost kind of reminds me how AF447 was said to have pancaked into the ocean.

There was a CRJ-200 that crashed in northern Norway a while back, just a speck on the ground as well.


Except the CR2 you're talking about in Norway went into the ground at a high rate of speed after a dive, whereas this Challenger looks like it pancaked in.
From my cold, dead hands
 
BravoOne
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 9:26 pm

Wonder if the NTSB will open an investigation for this accident?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 10:02 pm

State of Occurrence is Mexico, notably prickly to deal with, so they get the investigation.

GF
 
atomicstar
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 10:16 pm

This month is unfortunately very unfortunate in aviation, currently 3 accidents

BravoOne wrote:
Wonder if the NTSB will open an investigation for this accident?


I wonder too. But I will make an assumption that they would.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Tue May 07, 2019 11:15 pm

Well I ask because the Western Airlines, Mexico City DC10 accident in late 1979 never recieved the benefit of an official NTSB report..as far as I know. There was a pretty good ALPA report, but it was not widely distributed.

This Challenger accident, although a N registered airplane might not qualify as it does not appear to be under operational control of any FAA authority?
 
gokmengs
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Thu May 09, 2019 5:14 am

This incident eerily reminds me of the incident that happened last year where I lost few of my friends:( the challanger from DXB to IST that crashed in Northern Iran, there was a faulty air speed indicator and they were trying to ascend during cruise altitude and she stalled the plane.
Yaşa Mustafa Kemal Paşa Yaşa, Adın Yazılacak Mücevher Taşa
 
b747400erf
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Thu May 09, 2019 5:37 am

atomicstar wrote:
This month is unfortunately very unfortunate in aviation, currently 3 accidents

BravoOne wrote:
Wonder if the NTSB will open an investigation for this accident?


I wonder too. But I will make an assumption that they would.

There have been many more than 3 accidents. People are obsessed using the number 3. If that means ignoring general aviation accidents and only counting commercial. Or ignoring GA but not a bizjet. It is very anti-intellectual to do this, A.net.
 
Redd
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Thu May 09, 2019 5:41 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Looking at the FR24 data is there, it looks like the aircraft pitched up and stalled and it just went down from there.

From the accident picture it looks like a stall or flat spin all the way down to the ground,
 
MO11
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Thu May 09, 2019 5:48 am

atomicstar wrote:
This month is unfortunately very unfortunate in aviation, currently 3 accidents

BravoOne wrote:
Wonder if the NTSB will open an investigation for this accident?


I wonder too. But I will make an assumption that they would.


No, this is under the purview of the Mexican DGAC. Recall in 2012 a US-registered Lear crashed in Mexico killing singer Jenni Rivera; same authority.
 
A320NK
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Thu May 09, 2019 7:00 am

Sounds similar to the Challenger that was lost over Iran a year or so ago?
 
BravoOne
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Thu May 09, 2019 1:41 pm

People who believe accidents happen in threes are the same ones that hear voices and wear tin foil hats. Nonething to base this baseless theory on.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Thu May 09, 2019 2:00 pm

Annex 13 is pretty clear-state of occurrence has the investigation authority.

GF
 
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Aesma
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Thu May 09, 2019 2:05 pm

drdisque wrote:
Odd that the aircraft is on the American register yet the history shows it almost exclusively flying in Mexico and it seemingly was operated exclusively for a Mexican Oil & Gas group.

Is there a likely insurance or tax reason why the aircraft would be on the American register?


There is a maintenance reason apparently, for N aircraft to be based all around the world.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Moose135
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Thu May 09, 2019 2:27 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Well I ask because the Western Airlines, Mexico City DC10 accident in late 1979 never recieved the benefit of an official NTSB report..as far as I know. There was a pretty good ALPA report, but it was not widely distributed.

This Challenger accident, although a N registered airplane might not qualify as it does not appear to be under operational control of any FAA authority?

Since the crash occurred in Mexico, Mexican aviation officials will conduct the investigation and issue an official report. Since a US-registered aircraft was involved, the NTSB will be a party to the investigation and assist as requested, but will not issue an official report. That same thing applied to the Western Airlines crash you noted - the Mexican officials would have led the investigation and issued the report.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
BravoOne
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Thu May 09, 2019 2:30 pm

Moose135 wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Well I ask because the Western Airlines, Mexico City DC10 accident in late 1979 never recieved the benefit of an official NTSB report..as far as I know. There was a pretty good ALPA report, but it was not widely distributed.

This Challenger accident, although a N registered airplane might not qualify as it does not appear to be under operational control of any FAA authority?

Since the crash occurred in Mexico, Mexican aviation officials will conduct the investigation and issue an official report. Since a US-registered aircraft was involved, the NTSB will be a party to the investigation and assist as requested, but will not issue an official report. That same thing applied to the Western Airlines crash you noted - the Mexican officials would have led the investigation and issued the report.



Thanks, as suspected.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 13, 2019 6:12 pm

A lengthy post over on PP says this Capt had a rap sheet a mile long for past criminal drug activity.
 
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FredrikHAD
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 13, 2019 7:39 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
trnswrld wrote:
Wow that wreckage picture is startling. To imagine an airplane all the way up at FL400 or higher to land pancaked with what appears to be little to no forward motion. Almost kind of reminds me how AF447 was said to have pancaked into the ocean.

There was a CRJ-200 that crashed in northern Norway a while back, just a speck on the ground as well.


Except the CR2 you're talking about in Norway went into the ground at a high rate of speed after a dive, whereas this Challenger looks like it pancaked in.

...and it crashed on Swedish soil, not in Norway. It took off from Oslo, Norway and was headed for Tromsø, Norway, but overflew Swedish territory as that's the closest path. It was also registered in Sweden (SE-DUX) and operated by Swedish West Atlantic for Norwegian Mail. The initial behaviour is similar, with the nose pitching up. In the SE-DUX case, it was due to the CA/PF display showing an incorrect pitch up attitude, which the captain reacted on instinctively, trimming the nose down heavily in error. The FO (with a correct display) tried to override, but due to miscommunication between the two pilots they never recovered and entered a steep dive with massive over speed. One pilot was French and one Spanish, but it wasn't the language barrier that caused the miscommunication:

"After the aircraft reached cruising altitude some conversations of a private nature in English were heard. No language barriers were observed, which indicates that the communication between the pilots was not hampered or deteriorated for reasons of language.
...
The investigation has found deficiencies in the pilots' communication and difficulties in handling the situation."

https://www.havkom.se/assets/reports/RL-2016_11e.pdf

In this case, the actual cause may well have been a totally different one, but even if the cause happened to be the same, the impact was quite different as stated before. SE-DUX impacted almost vertically at 508 kts (FDR). This could possibly be explained by different handling characteristics in the two aircraft types.

/Fredrik
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Challenger 601 down - Vegas to Monterrey

Mon May 13, 2019 8:13 pm

trnswrld wrote:
Wow that wreckage picture is startling. To imagine an airplane all the way up at FL400 or higher to land pancaked with what appears to be little to no forward motion. Almost kind of reminds me how AF447 was said to have pancaked into the ocean.

AF447 had some forward motion when it hit the water. I don’t remember how much but it’s in the BEA-report. Also, the tail fin showed signs that it had been ripped off into the direction of „flight“ due to the momentum created when the aircraft hit the water.

The tail fin of this Challenger fell backwards. That’s very rare for plane crashes.

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