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mercure1
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Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Mon May 06, 2019 10:17 pm

Russian regional carrier Yamal Airlines said on Monday it was cancelling its planned purchase of 10 Sukhoi Superjet 100s.

Yamal announced its decision hours after Russia's transport minister said there was no reason to ground the domestically produced aircraft despite the incident on Sunday which killed 41 people, including at least two children.

TASS cited Vasily Kryuk, Yamal's general director, as saying his company was dropping plans to buy 10 more Sukhoi Superjets because servicing costs were too high. Yamal currently operates 15 of the planes, making it Russia's second biggest operator of the Superjet after Aeroflot.


https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/05/ ... rts-a65501

Basic aircraft serviceability and reliability forces another airline to call it quits with the SSJ
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janders
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Mon May 06, 2019 11:38 pm

Not sure the SSJ has much of a future. Seems one airline after another complain about its ongoing support and the tragic crash certainly does not help.
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Sasha
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 1:45 am

Probably for the best. Regional jet should not be draining money. Lessons to learn from EMB and the like, on spare parts logistics and support processes.
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MaksFly
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 1:55 am

Seems like rather a timing excuse. They were looking for a reason to cancel and did. Could have been for any, Max or Airbus too.
 
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shamrock350
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 2:13 am

The SSJ was on thin ice at the best of times, the crash this weekend, even if proven to be unrelated to the airframe, certainly doesn't help its situation.

It's a pity because by all accounts it was a reasonably nice aircraft to fly, it was relatively effecient and cheap to purchase but the lack of support and available spare parts for when things did go wrong really hurt its reputation and future prospects.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 2:28 am

shamrock350 wrote:
The SSJ was on thin ice at the best of times, the crash this weekend, even if proven to be unrelated to the airframe, certainly doesn't help its situation.

It's a pity because by all accounts it was a reasonably nice aircraft to fly, it was relatively effecient and cheap to purchase but the lack of support and available spare parts for when things did go wrong really hurt its reputation and future prospects.


Do we call time of death now? Wasn't Interjet operating or going to operate the SSJ? I think "cheap to purchase" may once again prove true the adadge "you get what you pay for", unfortunately some people, had to pay with their lives to find this out. I believe it was not certified to fly in US nor Canadian airspace, likely because it attracted no interest here, with the superior Bombardier & Embraer programs already entrenched.
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 2:37 am

RWA380 wrote:
shamrock350 wrote:
The SSJ was on thin ice at the best of times, the crash this weekend, even if proven to be unrelated to the airframe, certainly doesn't help its situation.

It's a pity because by all accounts it was a reasonably nice aircraft to fly, it was relatively effecient and cheap to purchase but the lack of support and available spare parts for when things did go wrong really hurt its reputation and future prospects.


Do we call time of death now? Wasn't Interjet operating or going to operate the SSJ? I think "cheap to purchase" may once again prove true the adadge "you get what you pay for", unfortunately some people, had to pay with their lives to find this out. I believe it was not certified to fly in US nor Canadian airspace, likely because it attracted no interest here, with the superior Bombardier & Embraer programs already entrenched.


Not only is that a massive jump to conclusion that there is a safety problem with the SSJ because of this one accident, but the SSJ has operated to the United States. Interjet operates them to San Antonio and I think on/off some other Texas destinations. UAC didn't bother getting it FAA certified because of the snowball's chance in hell that an American operator would buy a Russian jet if only for the political implications, never mind the quality of the aircraft.

The problems with the SSJ are mainly related to its engine (the core part, produced by French Safran/Snecma) and spare parts mostly for the engine, but for other wear components on the air-frame in general, which has been a big problem for the program. There has not been any demonstrative safety problems with the SSJ100.
 
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 3:27 am

The Superjet itself is a fine machine, and considered by many to be technologically about half way between where the likes of the traditional ERJ (non E2 family) or CRJ are, and the newer C-Series. It's the aftercare that has let it down, the lack of spare parts available. The jet is otherwise as reliable as it's western competitors.
 
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 3:47 am

MaksFly wrote:
Seems like rather a timing excuse. They were looking for a reason to cancel and did. Could have been for any, Max or Airbus too.


I thought they said it had nothing to do with the accident?
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downdata
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 3:55 am

RWA380 wrote:
shamrock350 wrote:
The SSJ was on thin ice at the best of times, the crash this weekend, even if proven to be unrelated to the airframe, certainly doesn't help its situation.

It's a pity because by all accounts it was a reasonably nice aircraft to fly, it was relatively effecient and cheap to purchase but the lack of support and available spare parts for when things did go wrong really hurt its reputation and future prospects.


Do we call time of death now? Wasn't Interjet operating or going to operate the SSJ? I think "cheap to purchase" may once again prove true the adadge "you get what you pay for", unfortunately some people, had to pay with their lives to find this out. I believe it was not certified to fly in US nor Canadian airspace, likely because it attracted no interest here, with the superior Bombardier & Embraer programs already entrenched.


Well people certainly got what they paid for on the 737max, the DC10 and you know, the comet...
 
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CarbonFibre
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 7:49 am

I bet Brussels/CityJet are glad they got rid when they did.
 
gregpodpl
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 11:34 am

opticalilyushin wrote:
The jet is otherwise as reliable as it's western competitors.

And how do we know that ? There is a limited number of planes in the air, not flying that much, I don't think there is enough data in to make this call.
 
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 11:38 am

gregpodpl wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
The jet is otherwise as reliable as it's western competitors.

And how do we know that ? There is a limited number of planes in the air, not flying that much, I don't think there is enough data in to make this call.

There have been known airframe part shortages. Reports are it isn't much different in reliability, but getting timely parts is an issue.

The only two Western operators have dropped the type, that is a bad sign.

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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 12:34 pm

lightsaber wrote:
gregpodpl wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
The jet is otherwise as reliable as it's western competitors.

And how do we know that ? There is a limited number of planes in the air, not flying that much, I don't think there is enough data in to make this call.

There have been known airframe part shortages. Reports are it isn't much different in reliability, but getting timely parts is an issue.

The only two Western operators have dropped the type, that is a bad sign.

Lightsaber


I do like the shift in narrative lately from "there is no problem" to "the problem is all the fault of the French". Some of our posters are now trying t put all of the blame squarely on the engines, which as we see from many of the parts issues simply isn't the case.
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drdisque
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 2:05 pm

Yamal can probably get a better deal on CRJ-900 or -1000's which are honestly a better fit for their network and fit with their large fleet of second hand CRJ-200's.
 
opticalilyushin
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 3:48 pm

Spacepope wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
gregpodpl wrote:
And how do we know that ? There is a limited number of planes in the air, not flying that much, I don't think there is enough data in to make this call.

There have been known airframe part shortages. Reports are it isn't much different in reliability, but getting timely parts is an issue.

The only two Western operators have dropped the type, that is a bad sign.

Lightsaber


I do like the shift in narrative lately from "there is no problem" to "the problem is all the fault of the French". Some of our posters are now trying t put all of the blame squarely on the engines, which as we see from many of the parts issues simply isn't the case.


Interjet at one point referred to the Superjets as being money making machines, and there were reports of dispatch reliability at almost 100%, which is comparable to similarly sized types from other manufacturers. The problem of a lack of spare parts cropped up later, particularly with engine parts. The aircraft needs spare parts like any other jet, even new ones, but Bombardier and Embraer seem to be much better equipped to deal with this.
 
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 6:19 pm

I remember when the SSJ was first proposed and introduced. A number of people raised the issue that historically Russia has had a problem providing spare parts and service for its products; and would the SSJ be any different. My memory is that there were promises by Sukhoi that they understood the importance of after-sale service and would provide parts and support similar to their key competition.

In the end, its obvious that Sukoi did not learn from the mistakes of the past by Russian countires... and did not provide parts and service at a level needed to sustain the SSJ in the world wide market.

Russia has designed and built many great things... Somehow they always fall down on after sale parts and support. I've read the some 3rd world countries are not happy with Russian military vehicles and systems for the same reason.

Its too bad; because the SSJ appears to be a really great and competitive aircraft itslef.

Have a great day,
 
UmKa39
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 9:10 pm

SSJ is not worse than its competitors. The only problem is the lack of an after-sales service base.
The aircraftI heard, Sukhoi is going to create warehouses of parts in Russia and in Europe (2019-2021).
 
Pentaprism
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 10:12 pm

I don't think this needs to be the end of the SSJ. In most ways it is a very competitive Aircraft. Obviously they need to sort out the issue with the Engine or source a new Engine. They need to build a Spare Parts Supply Chain comparable to what Western Manufacturers offer. And they need to find out why a Lightning Strike, which is not exactly a rare occurrence, ended so Catastrophically.

But nearly all Models have had Crashes, some much earlier in their Career than this one, and the programs have recovered to sell thousands more Units. I hope Sukhoi can overcome these issues because the World needs more diversification. And Russian Jets Rock.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Tue May 07, 2019 10:38 pm

that must have come as a great blow to Sukhoi, together with a horrific crash. In recent months we have seen the withdraw of the craft in Mexico and with Brussel airlines. Will this be that last nail to the SSJ coffin?

If Russia and China wants some succes on the international market for airliners, they need to up their game with a good and effective aftersales/maintenance. Aircraft on the ground are very expensive, even-though their purchase prise might be low.
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jetblueguy22
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 12:58 am

I’m sorry, but you can’t separate the challenge of obtaining parts from the aircraft. If something is broken and you can’t get parts, there is something wrong with your airplane. We can protect it all we want and say it’s a fantastic airplane, but more than one airline has proved it simply isn’t true.

If my Wrangler breaks down I don’t blame Mopar for not having parts, I blame Jeep. It’s the same thing. If Sukhoi wants to be competitive they need the support structure. They’ve had a long enough time to have it in place by now.

Good, dependable airplanes don’t sit on the ground for weeks or months waiting for parts.
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WayexTDI
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 1:33 am

UmKa39 wrote:
SSJ is not worse than its competitors. The only problem is the lack of an after-sales service base.
The aircraftI heard, Sukhoi is going to create warehouses of parts in Russia and in Europe (2019-2021).

So, Sukhoi will have waited at least 8 years (EIS April 2011) before creating what could appear like a real aftermarket network?
Sukhoi used Western companies as system OEM's, and those companies had very well established aftermarket networks; however, Sukhoi (and mainly SuperJet International) refused to let said OEM's handle the aftermarket, as they wanted all the money for them. From there, they had basically 0 chance to support the SSJ100 as well as the ABBE (Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, Embraer) could do.

Their greed, their failure.
 
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 1:36 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
I’m sorry, but you can’t separate the challenge of obtaining parts from the aircraft. If something is broken and you can’t get parts, there is something wrong with your airplane. We can protect it all we want and say it’s a fantastic airplane, but more than one airline has proved it simply isn’t true.

If my Wrangler breaks down I don’t blame Mopar for not having parts, I blame Jeep. It’s the same thing. If Sukhoi wants to be competitive they need the support structure. They’ve had a long enough time to have it in place by now.

Good, dependable airplanes don’t sit on the ground for weeks or months waiting for parts.

A huge amount of engineering is 'helping' vendors find and fix issues. Often, it is assisting them get priority at a casting sub-vendor to increase spares.

SAFRAN's problem is that for the volume engines, GE has certain vendor arrangements exclusively. If GE, Pratt, or RR need 200 of a part quick, they get them. Heck, I have personally seen GE cram a shop for larger volumes.
SAFRAN is trying to get an extra one time minimum sized batch (25). When you consider the vendor profit is say $10,000 versus a Pratt military order of the same work for $20,000, which do you manufacture first? One stops machines for the same hour or two to switch products if the batch is 25 or 600.

Note:. CFM orders are so large they are broken down into manageable lots.

Pratt, GE, and RR are currently overloading vendors. That always happens when new engines go through the system or major component replacement. E.g., Pratt for replacement PW1100 seals and combustors. Huh, components SAFRAN needs... Bummer.

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Antarius
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 5:15 am

downdata wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
shamrock350 wrote:
The SSJ was on thin ice at the best of times, the crash this weekend, even if proven to be unrelated to the airframe, certainly doesn't help its situation.

It's a pity because by all accounts it was a reasonably nice aircraft to fly, it was relatively effecient and cheap to purchase but the lack of support and available spare parts for when things did go wrong really hurt its reputation and future prospects.


Do we call time of death now? Wasn't Interjet operating or going to operate the SSJ? I think "cheap to purchase" may once again prove true the adadge "you get what you pay for", unfortunately some people, had to pay with their lives to find this out. I believe it was not certified to fly in US nor Canadian airspace, likely because it attracted no interest here, with the superior Bombardier & Embraer programs already entrenched.


Well people certainly got what they paid for on the 737max, the DC10 and you know, the comet...


The downside to the democratization of data and proliferation of the internet is that people think it includes carte blanche to say stupid things. See example above.
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 6:04 am

opticalilyushin wrote:
The jet is otherwise as reliable as it's western competitors.

My comments disappear but he can make this claim? Pointing to a possible design flaw if reports of the crash are accurate is very relevant to a topic of people claiming it is reliable and safe.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 6:41 am

Pudelhund wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
shamrock350 wrote:
The SSJ was on thin ice at the best of times, the crash this weekend, even if proven to be unrelated to the airframe, certainly doesn't help its situation.

It's a pity because by all accounts it was a reasonably nice aircraft to fly, it was relatively effecient and cheap to purchase but the lack of support and available spare parts for when things did go wrong really hurt its reputation and future prospects.


Do we call time of death now? Wasn't Interjet operating or going to operate the SSJ? I think "cheap to purchase" may once again prove true the adadge "you get what you pay for", unfortunately some people, had to pay with their lives to find this out. I believe it was not certified to fly in US nor Canadian airspace, likely because it attracted no interest here, with the superior Bombardier & Embraer programs already entrenched.


Not only is that a massive jump to conclusion that there is a safety problem with the SSJ because of this one accident, but the SSJ has operated to the United States. Interjet operates them to San Antonio and I think on/off some other Texas destinations. UAC didn't bother getting it FAA certified because of the snowball's chance in hell that an American operator would buy a Russian jet if only for the political implications, never mind the quality of the aircraft.

The problems with the SSJ are mainly related to its engine (the core part, produced by French Safran/Snecma) and spare parts mostly for the engine, but for other wear components on the air-frame in general, which has been a big problem for the program. There has not been any demonstrative safety problems with the SSJ100.


Where did I state there is a safety issue with the SSJ? Seriously you can not expect an aircraft, that has had such lackluster sales already, to survive financially past a spectacular crash like we just saw.

It is not like there is any big viable market for this airplane, with the exception of Aeroflot. China is making their own & how many can Cuba or Venezeuala pay for? With the SSJ being withdrawn by Interjet in what should be an easier market like Mexico & by Brussels in Europe, it shows me inside, to how airlines really work. I know this last straw is it & a few others here, feel it's time to cue the fat lady as well.

I referred to "cheap to purchase" as a direct quote by the member I was quoting & not some hidden or misleading message. If I meant "inferior pile of crap" I would have said that. People did pay with their lives, it is a question as to exactly what transpired currently, I am sure they will solve it & since it's Russia I am sure the Government will try & protect their own nterests in any information they provide.

IE ... Don't expect to know the truth if it makes anyone in or associated with Russia look bad. The "Official" Russian government viewpoints differ greatly vs what the rest of the world sees. MH17.

Realistacly it's being discussed here, in this thread now, availability of spare parts could be an indication of a failing aircraft program or a true inability to measure the market correctly, either way, poor party planning!

Maybe the availability of spare parts was bad enough to allow a worn part to be used "one more time" thus creating a dominoed miscalculation that turned into a catastrophe? We just don't know quite yet, in the mean time SSJ shouldn't be expecting the phones to be ringing in their order department inviting pink slips, but surprise! Their returns & cancellations department will be doubling in size..
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Apprentice
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 7:32 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
I’m sorry, but you can’t separate the challenge of obtaining parts from the aircraft. If something is broken and you can’t get parts, there is something wrong with your airplane. We can protect it all we want and say it’s a fantastic airplane, but more than one airline has proved it simply isn’t true.

If my Wrangler breaks down I don’t blame Mopar for not having parts, I blame Jeep. It’s the same thing. If Sukhoi wants to be competitive they need the support structure. They’ve had a long enough time to have it in place by now.

Good, dependable airplanes don’t sit on the ground for weeks or months waiting for parts.


Good Morning. Any Russian around?
Many peoplehere who talk (or better Вальтают) about something they even do not imagine.
Russian Aeronautical industry is a descendant from soviet One. Nothing to said, every country used past resources for next step.

At Soviet times, while there was aeronautical production well established, parts were produced in other factories. That way they understood that, was more easy to get parts produced. If You have Hydraulics Schematics for Soviet Planes, You will find that a GA-163 valve (just an example) was find in any commercial and many military planes. It is easy to talk about pass decisions, just remember that SU was unable to receive any part for an engines or fuselaje system from western countries, short after WWII

So with that premise, they decide to built planes and park. When a part was received, plane was completed. Production planes did had priority, and that way, if part was broken, a company (even a russian one) will have to wait for part availability

How to fight that, many companies have more planes that they need. And at least one of them AOG as a parts source.

This situation had not changed a lot, and is a theme to be consider when buying planes.

Now I have a question: when a, for instance Mexican company, buy Russian planes, do they know about parts problems? Did They took any measure to fight this situation in advance? Who took buying decision? Is He still working in the company?

Rgds
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c933103
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 8:01 am

Pentaprism wrote:
I don't think this needs to be the end of the SSJ. In most ways it is a very competitive Aircraft. Obviously they need to sort out the issue with the Engine or source a new Engine. They need to build a Spare Parts Supply Chain comparable to what Western Manufacturers offer. And they need to find out why a Lightning Strike, which is not exactly a rare occurrence, ended so Catastrophically.

But nearly all Models have had Crashes, some much earlier in their Career than this one, and the programs have recovered to sell thousands more Units. I hope Sukhoi can overcome these issues because the World needs more diversification. And Russian Jets Rock.

The key here is the spare part support. I don't think the crash have any significant place in the decision making process that caused the airlines cancel the order. Yes we can wish they can improve the spare part support, but the thing is if they still haven't finished (or even started) doing so by now then why would the future be any different?
And then as for thousands of units, that is unlikely even if they fix every problems they are now facing. First of all the global market isn't that large even if you combine all other aircraft sales from other manufacturer together. Secondly yes the SSJ is competitive, but it is now facing the EIS of more competitive aircrafts like E-Jet E2, MRJ, and the C-Series, and even if SSJ is to further modernize and optimize with stretch and shrink they they will still have to face competition from those more modern aircraft.
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c933103
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 8:12 am

Apprentice wrote:
Good Morning. Any Russian around?
Many peoplehere who talk (or better Вальтают) about something they even do not imagine.
Russian Aeronautical industry is a descendant from soviet One. Nothing to said, every country used past resources for next step.

At Soviet times, while there was aeronautical production well established, parts were produced in other factories. That way they understood that, was more easy to get parts produced. If You have Hydraulics Schematics for Soviet Planes, You will find that a GA-163 valve (just an example) was find in any commercial and many military planes. It is easy to talk about pass decisions, just remember that SU was unable to receive any part for an engines or fuselaje system from western countries, short after WWII

So with that premise, they decide to built planes and park. When a part was received, plane was completed. Production planes did had priority, and that way, if part was broken, a company (even a russian one) will have to wait for part availability

Many components in Airbus and Boeing planes are also produced by various suppliers but it doesn't seems like they face that much of a problems. In some special situation like when there were large scale engine problem with A320neo that needs to be fixed before those aircraft can get back into service, the priority was to fix engines on delivered planes first. So the problem is allocation of suppliers resources?
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
opticalilyushin
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 9:21 am

b747400erf wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
The jet is otherwise as reliable as it's western competitors.

My comments disappear but he can make this claim? Pointing to a possible design flaw if reports of the crash are accurate is very relevant to a topic of people claiming it is reliable and safe.


Not my claim nor my words, but those from management of an airline, which are on public record. The only claim I can make is that having flown the type many times with Aeroflot, Cityjet and Yamal, I find it to be rather nice and comfortable onboard.

Many aircraft types have had their design-related incidents, and sadly some fatal.

I'm not sure why your comment was removed or what it even said..i can only assume it was off topic or unsuitable.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 11:33 am

c933103 wrote:
Many components in Airbus and Boeing planes are also produced by various suppliers but it doesn't seems like they face that much of a problems. In some special situation like when there were large scale engine problem with A320neo that needs to be fixed before those aircraft can get back into service, the priority was to fix engines on delivered planes first. So the problem is allocation of suppliers resources?


Hi, again disagree, problem was Production’s System (aka Socialism) that was not flexible at all. For a Joe-the-worker, it made not a big difference is a plane, in the middle of nowhere, need a part or not.

Compare Airbus or Boeing with soviet planes has not sense. As I told, no way to obtain spares or even tools for russian planes from western countries, but, if a client decides that he want 10 A-320 with CF56 engines, all suppliers, from all over the world, will push hard to have system on and deliver them on time.
Rgds
“An4; IL18; IL6; Tu5; D10; MD11; MD83; B32; B34: B37; B744; B748; B752; B763; B772; B773; B77W; A320; A332; A333; A342; A343.
"A NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor (a wise man)
“CUBANA” 90 years Flying”
 
superjeff
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 12:18 pm

RWA380 wrote:
shamrock350 wrote:
The SSJ was on thin ice at the best of times, the crash this weekend, even if proven to be unrelated to the airframe, certainly doesn't help its situation.

I believe it was not certified to fly in US nor Canadian airspace, likely because it attracted no interest here, with the superior Bombardier & Embraer programs already entrenched.



I'm not sure that was the case, as Interjet used to fly the SSJ into both Houston and DFW regularly, as well as MIA (not sure about any other destinations). Watched it landing on at least one occasion, and recall it came in quite fast.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 12:18 pm

opticalilyushin wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
The jet is otherwise as reliable as it's western competitors.

My comments disappear but he can make this claim? Pointing to a possible design flaw if reports of the crash are accurate is very relevant to a topic of people claiming it is reliable and safe.


Not my claim nor my words, but those from management of an airline, which are on public record. The only claim I can make is that having flown the type many times with Aeroflot, Cityjet and Yamal, I find it to be rather nice and comfortable onboard.

Many aircraft types have had their design-related incidents, and sadly some fatal.

I'm not sure why your comment was removed or what it even said..i can only assume it was off topic or unsuitable.


Good Morning.
Having work some years on Russian planes, and them on western, I found not a big differences in reliability . Every one was designed with the same “fail safe”philosophy, (it doesn’t mean that nothing can fail, but that a simple fail will not cause a System Malfunction and that chances of catastrophe, due to that simple failure will raise).
Russian NLGS (accident investigation Bureau , like US’s NTSB), Ground all planes of a type, when an accident take place without clear reasons, till investigation deems that a/c is sure or a safety is restored by modifications, I repeat, ground all the fleet worldwide.
For example, an incident, like “Abnormal”, yellow vibration, (still no Red- “High”), cause a serious investigation, which nobody signing plane “go”, till company’s engineers and Manufacturer’s ones, agree that aircraft is safe for flight.
They are so serious to aircraft safety as western counterpart, but still people love to speak... I do not remember a case in which a safety concern was :
“ keep in sight for follow up”, or transferred to Minimum Equipment List, that no Soviet planes use. A/C should be fully airworthiness to accomplish it’s intended flight.
I remember DC10 accident, when due to an GE turbine malfunction, the whole DC10 fleet was grounded. (GE engines continued flight in others planes), till cause was stablished and fixed..
This week We had 2ea accidents, let’s wait for completion of investigations and their implementation, to maintain civil aviation as safe as possible.

Rgds
“An4; IL18; IL6; Tu5; D10; MD11; MD83; B32; B34: B37; B744; B748; B752; B763; B772; B773; B77W; A320; A332; A333; A342; A343.
"A NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor (a wise man)
“CUBANA” 90 years Flying”
 
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Aesma
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 12:26 pm

I have a hard time believing the western manufacturers involved in the SSJ are the ones to blame for parts availability shortages, when that is a well known problem of "not western" manufacturers.

I don't know how much money the Russian government has put into the SSJ, but they should probably have put more. Make it a success at all cost, as the Chinese are doing. Russia badly needs to sell stuff more advanced than oil and raw materials.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
UmKa39
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 2:35 pm

Aesma wrote:
I have a hard time believing the western manufacturers involved in the SSJ are the ones to blame for parts availability shortages, when that is a well known problem of "not western" manufacturers.

I don't know how much money the Russian government has put into the SSJ, but they should probably have put more. Make it a success at all cost, as the Chinese are doing. Russia badly needs to sell stuff more advanced than oil and raw materials.


Waiting for parts for engines is really long. Here it is necessary to negotiate and solve a problem that does not allow the aircraft to move forward.
By the way, the airline Azimuth flies on Superjet. She feels well.
As for Aeroflot, I want to note that they simply don’t need so many Superjets. To use the entire fleet, it creates two or three hubs in major cities of Russia.
Sukhoi also solves the problem with spare parts. I hope they bring this problem to the end.
 
ScottB
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 2:48 pm

Apprentice wrote:
So with that premise, they decide to built planes and park. When a part was received, plane was completed. Production planes did had priority, and that way, if part was broken, a company (even a russian one) will have to wait for part availability

How to fight that, many companies have more planes that they need. And at least one of them AOG as a parts source.

This situation had not changed a lot, and is a theme to be consider when buying planes.


Things can work that way in a command economy where profitability is unimportant or irrelevant and product decisions are driven by politics or cronyism.

But in a modern capitalist economy, having an asset worth tens of millions of dollars sit idle for lack of a part costing several hundred or thousands of dollars is absolutely insane. There's no benefit to the SSJ being half the acquisition cost of an E190 if you have to order twice as many as you ought to need because half the fleet is going to sit around waiting for parts or being cannibalized for parts.
 
Pentaprism
Posts: 12
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 2:54 pm

Aesma wrote:
I have a hard time believing the western manufacturers involved in the SSJ are the ones to blame for parts availability shortages, when that is a well known problem of "not western" manufacturers.

I don't know how much money the Russian government has put into the SSJ, but they should probably have put more. Make it a success at all cost, as the Chinese are doing. Russia badly needs to sell stuff more advanced than oil and raw materials.


It's hard to quantify who is responsible for what part supply issues on the SSJ unless you work for one of the Operators. But I have read a fair bit about the issue over the last few years and I have no doubt the biggest single weakness of the Aircraft is it's Motor, which is made in France. It doesn't last nearly as long as it is supposed to due to a Compressor issue and even if you have the cash to buy a replacement it won't arrive anytime soon because there is a backlog. This is the reason most of the Interjet fleet is grounded.

Supply of Russian Parts is not working well either. I don't know if other Western Made Components are causing delays.

Logistics of supplying & servicing Aircraft on a Global Scale is not easy. It's impressive that Manufacturers like Embraer have been able to achieve what they have in this space because they would have faced the same issues as Sukhoi have but achieved a much better outcome.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Wed May 08, 2019 4:10 pm

Pentaprism wrote:
But I have read a fair bit about the issue over the last few years and I have no doubt the biggest single weakness of the Aircraft is it's Motor, which is made in France. It doesn't last nearly as long as it is supposed to due to a Compressor issue and even if you have the cash to buy a replacement it won't arrive anytime soon because there is a backlog.

I have asked this on here before and will do so again now. P&WC seemed to have corrected most of the flaws of the PW6000 towards the end, but obviously not in time to save the A318 (which was heavy to begin with). Could that engine have been a bit better substitute for the SAM146 on the SSJ100 given it was in a similar thrust class :?: This is only a theoretical exercise of course, as it was not likely that P&W would've shot itself in the foot by providing that engine (assuming it's not worse) to a potential competitor of their GTF customers.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
rbavfan
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Thu May 09, 2019 7:44 am

downdata wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
shamrock350 wrote:
The SSJ was on thin ice at the best of times, the crash this weekend, even if proven to be unrelated to the airframe, certainly doesn't help its situation.

It's a pity because by all accounts it was a reasonably nice aircraft to fly, it was relatively effecient and cheap to purchase but the lack of support and available spare parts for when things did go wrong really hurt its reputation and future prospects.


Do we call time of death now? Wasn't Interjet operating or going to operate the SSJ? I think "cheap to purchase" may once again prove true the adadge "you get what you pay for", unfortunately some people, had to pay with their lives to find this out. I believe it was not certified to fly in US nor Canadian airspace, likely because it attracted no interest here, with the superior Bombardier & Embraer programs already entrenched.


Well people certainly got what they paid for on the 737max, the DC10 and you know, the comet...


The Comet was the first pressurized frame. They found out that the old square windows do not work in a pressurized hull. It causes stress cracks in the corners. The result was a switch for all pressurized airframes not having corner cuts for doors or windows. The Comet was never a cheap airframe & it showed and learned from the problem. As is seen by the Nimrod AEW3 that was based on the frame & in service from 1969 to 2011.

The DC-10 had many ignored cargo door failures before they fixed it. they were found to have covered their tracks with it.

The 737Max issue it seems was known, ignored & covered up as well. Boeing merged with MDC and caught the penny pinching, cut corners to make more money mentality they had. They need to reverse that to get the respect and quality back.We will see.

In terms of the SSJ being at fault. Watch the video that shows the awful landing attempt. It had multiple hard landing impacts & very high bounce back into the air. The last & hardest you can see the fuselage impact the runway & the flames start. This landing shows pilot error during landing. Overall the SSJ is not that bad. It just has horrible parts support.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Thu May 09, 2019 8:04 am

Aesma wrote:
I have a hard time believing the western manufacturers involved in the SSJ are the ones to blame for parts availability shortages, when that is a well known problem of "not western" manufacturers.

I don't know how much money the Russian government has put into the SSJ, but they should probably have put more. Make it a success at all cost, as the Chinese are doing. Russia badly needs to sell stuff more advanced than oil and raw materials.


There have been parts shortages of SAM146 maintenance & parts. Some of which were listed as Snecma (Safran) parts. So it seems its partly SanFrans fault. The same parts issue and faulty core have been linked to their Silvercrest business jet engines. So it's not all Russian parts issues.

After all no engine parts no fly.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Thu May 09, 2019 10:45 am

About the reliability issues and the causes, for the engine, I really can't comment, plenty of reasons why a perfectly designed core might have trouble due to other parts, nacelle, vibrations caused by the fan, etc.

However for parts availability, maybe it's got something to do with not ordering enough of them, or not wanting to pay, or something like that ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
luckyone
Posts: 2772
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Thu May 09, 2019 11:24 am

rbavfan wrote:
downdata wrote:
RWA380 wrote:

Do we call time of death now? Wasn't Interjet operating or going to operate the SSJ? I think "cheap to purchase" may once again prove true the adadge "you get what you pay for", unfortunately some people, had to pay with their lives to find this out. I believe it was not certified to fly in US nor Canadian airspace, likely because it attracted no interest here, with the superior Bombardier & Embraer programs already entrenched.


Well people certainly got what they paid for on the 737max, the DC10 and you know, the comet...


The Comet was the first pressurized frame. They found out that the old square windows do not work in a pressurized hull. It causes stress cracks in the corners. The result was a switch for all pressurized airframes not having corner cuts for doors or windows. The Comet was never a cheap airframe & it showed and learned from the problem. As is seen by the Nimrod AEW3 that was based on the frame & in service from 1969 to 2011.

The DC-10 had many ignored cargo door failures before they fixed it. they were found to have covered their tracks with it.

The 737Max issue it seems was known, ignored & covered up as well. Boeing merged with MDC and caught the penny pinching, cut corners to make more money mentality they had. They need to reverse that to get the respect and quality back.We will see.

In terms of the SSJ being at fault. Watch the video that shows the awful landing attempt. It had multiple hard landing impacts & very high bounce back into the air. The last & hardest you can see the fuselage impact the runway & the flames start. This landing shows pilot error during landing. Overall the SSJ is not that bad. It just has horrible parts support.

The Comet was not the first pressurized airliner, nor was it the first to have square windows while being pressurized. See Boeing 307, Stratoliner. The Lockheed Constellation was also pressurized and predated the Comet, and later versions went from round to square windows, still pressurized. The DC-5 was pressurized etc etc. The Comet’s window shape was not the problem.
Last edited by luckyone on Thu May 09, 2019 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
luckyone
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Re: Yamal Airlines cancels remaining SSJ order

Thu May 09, 2019 11:24 am

Duplicate.

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