Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Kilopond
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:08 am

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Tue May 07, 2019 7:02 pm

United1 wrote:
rjmf22 wrote:
Do United, America, and Delta fly over North Korea?


Not that I know of...


Come on, none of you two read the whole thread. :hissyfit: Quoting from an earlier post:

UPlog wrote:
As pilot for a US airline with significant Pacific ops, I have no qualms about flying through North Korea.
The several times I did it in the past they were extremely professional without any issue. Actually I’d fly through North Korea any day versus the mess China can be instead.
 
Dldiamondboy
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:21 pm

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Tue May 07, 2019 7:07 pm

I suspect that is an anomaly with Flightradar24. I have seen DAL 27 and KAL 086 supposedly over-fly Pyongyang but after I checked back after the flights had landed it was the typical approach over the Yellow Sea avoiding DPRK airspace.
 
United1
Posts: 4127
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Tue May 07, 2019 7:16 pm

Kilopond wrote:
United1 wrote:
rjmf22 wrote:
Do United, America, and Delta fly over North Korea?


Not that I know of...


Come on, none of you two read the whole thread. :hissyfit: Quoting from an earlier post:

UPlog wrote:
As pilot for a US airline with significant Pacific ops, I have no qualms about flying through North Korea.
The several times I did it in the past they were extremely professional without any issue. Actually I’d fly through North Korea any day versus the mess China can be instead.


I can't find any evidence of UA, AA or DL routing a flight over NK....I don't necessarily have any qualms about UA, AA or DL routing over NK but if it happens it doesn't happen often.

Perhaps the pilot you referenced works for UPS or FDX as I'm not as familiar with their operations. Even then taking a look at their flights today UPS/FDX aircraft seem to detour around NK.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
User avatar
acavpics
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:54 am

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Tue May 07, 2019 7:30 pm

What would happen if an airliner needed to make a diversion while it was flying over NK? - Let's say somebody had an an engine failure. Would they divert to a North Korean Airport?
I'm not trying to be all negative here. But something like this is definitely possible and airline need to be very prepared for such a scenario.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3436
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Tue May 07, 2019 7:36 pm

acavpics wrote:
What would happen if an airliner needed to make a diversion while it was flying over NK? - Let's say somebody had an an engine failure. Would they divert to a North Korean Airport?
I'm not trying to be all negative here. But something like this is definitely possible and airline need to be very prepared for such a scenario.


Not that there are many North Korean airports you can diverted to in that part of the country. Chongjin would be about the only airport, and it's just as far to either turn around and land at YNJ (Yanji, China) or divert to Vladivostok.
 
ferminbrif
Posts: 116
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:04 pm

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Tue May 07, 2019 7:39 pm

A lot of places are dangerous enough to fly over. Nevertheless and generally speaking, there´s common sense and mutual agreement regarding civil aviation in most countries.
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5334
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Tue May 07, 2019 7:52 pm

ITSTours wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
hooverman wrote:

The Netherlands have a diplomatic relation with North Korea. NK is not that stupid to shoot down a passenger aircraft of which country has the diplomatic relation.


The European Union has diplomatic relations with NK since 2001.
Each member of the EU also has on its side diplomatic relation with NK except Estonia and France ( France is represented in NK by Germany).

Note that Air France flights to ICN or Japan don’t fly over the North Korean air space.
 
rlwynn
Posts: 1486
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:35 am

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Tue May 07, 2019 8:03 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
rlwynn wrote:
DL159 flew right through the middle of NK.


Care to provide a reference for that? To the best of my knowledge, DL159 DTW-ICN never flies over NK nor do any of it's other flights. They fly through China then on the very west side of NK into ICN.


Yeah, watch it tomorrow on FL24. It followed Air Canada from the north right into NK. As did many planes for the few hours I paid attention.
I can drive faster than you
 
ITSTours
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Tue May 07, 2019 8:19 pm

rlwynn wrote:
RetiredWeasel wrote:
rlwynn wrote:
DL159 flew right through the middle of NK.


Care to provide a reference for that? To the best of my knowledge, DL159 DTW-ICN never flies over NK nor do any of it's other flights. They fly through China then on the very west side of NK into ICN.


Yeah, watch it tomorrow on FL24. It followed Air Canada from the north right into NK. As did many planes for the few hours I paid attention.


Those are errors. Most if not all US and SK airlines make a detour towards China when they approach Incheon.
 
wexfordflyer
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:48 pm

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Tue May 07, 2019 8:41 pm

This is utterly nonsense. North Korea may be a hermit kingdom, but it's of no threat to overflying airlines. Having visited NK myself, I will say it's an unusual place and questionable in a lot of how they treat citizens, but the nonsense that gets published about the place is baffling!
Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Tue May 07, 2019 8:48 pm

senatorflyer wrote:
North Korea is cashing in big time on usage of airspace by foreign airlines.


Someone educate me. I thought most responsible, western governments stopped their corporations from doing business with the NK. If so, how would Lufthansa or Delta pay the NK government?
 
User avatar
777222LR
Posts: 369
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:19 am

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Tue May 07, 2019 8:50 pm

Flying on Turkish DXB-IST-IAH, we flew both over Syria as well as Ukraine. I honestly took a Xanax for both flights, but I remember thinking, hmmm... But here I am.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1111
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Wed May 08, 2019 3:37 am

kitplane01 wrote:
senatorflyer wrote:
North Korea is cashing in big time on usage of airspace by foreign airlines.


Someone educate me. I thought most responsible, western governments stopped their corporations from doing business with the NK. If so, how would Lufthansa or Delta pay the NK government?


not accurate.
sanctions are specifically targeted in attempts to stifle 1) nuclear weapons development, 2) cyber weapons , 3) currency counterfeiting, and other destabilizing behaviors. However, doing business in a traditional way is difficult without direct banking relationships as banks are loath to risk their services being used to support a sanctioned activity, thus payment for even allowed commerce is challenging.

I don't have insight, but I suspect China serves as an intermediary for payment of overflight fees.
there's only one country in the world that "cashes in big time", and that would be Russia.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Wed May 08, 2019 6:08 am

wexfordflyer wrote:
This is utterly nonsense. North Korea may be a hermit kingdom, but it's of no threat to overflying airlines. Having visited NK myself, I will say it's an unusual place and questionable in a lot of how they treat citizens, but the nonsense that gets published about the place is baffling!

Firing rockets and missiles and no warnings is normal everyone does it right?
 
wexfordflyer
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:48 pm

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Wed May 08, 2019 7:49 am

b747400erf wrote:
wexfordflyer wrote:
This is utterly nonsense. North Korea may be a hermit kingdom, but it's of no threat to overflying airlines. Having visited NK myself, I will say it's an unusual place and questionable in a lot of how they treat citizens, but the nonsense that gets published about the place is baffling!

Firing rockets and missiles and no warnings is normal everyone does it right?


I'm no expert in missiles and ballistic missile tests, but plenty of posters here have posted more about the details of the tests that NK conducts. Calling something a missile doesn't mean it has the capability to down an airliner.

People may think NK is a bumbling buffoon of a state that doesn't know what it's doing, but they are shrewd operators and well able to play the international game. They know well that if they were to down a civilian airliner, they would be the ones to lose out big time! If NK really wanted to do something as drastic as that, Seoul is within shelling distance from the DMZ........
Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
 
RetiredWeasel
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Wed May 08, 2019 2:48 pm

rlwynn wrote:
RetiredWeasel wrote:
rlwynn wrote:
DL159 flew right through the middle of NK.


Care to provide a reference for that? To the best of my knowledge, DL159 DTW-ICN never flies over NK nor do any of it's other flights. They fly through China then on the very west side of NK into ICN.


Yeah, watch it tomorrow on FL24. It followed Air Canada from the north right into NK. As did many planes for the few hours I paid attention.


As others have said, DL does not fly over NK. I just checked the last 7 days of DL 159 on Flight Aware, and their routing for ICN is over the Yellow Sea avoiding NK. If you are doing real time tracking, then you should realize the on-line tracking sites have little ADS-B receiver information over China and none over NK. They rely on that info for semi accurate data when radar data is not provided from the controlling agencies and sometimes they just postulate.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3436
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Wed May 08, 2019 3:02 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
rlwynn wrote:
RetiredWeasel wrote:

Care to provide a reference for that? To the best of my knowledge, DL159 DTW-ICN never flies over NK nor do any of it's other flights. They fly through China then on the very west side of NK into ICN.


Yeah, watch it tomorrow on FL24. It followed Air Canada from the north right into NK. As did many planes for the few hours I paid attention.


As others have said, DL does not fly over NK. I just checked the last 7 days of DL 159 on Flight Aware, and their routing for ICN is over the Yellow Sea avoiding NK. If you are doing real time tracking, then you should realize the on-line tracking sites have little ADS-B receiver information over China and none over NK. They rely on that info for semi accurate data when radar data is not provided from the controlling agencies and sometimes they just postulate.


It's just that FR24 doesn't have coverage over Liaodong Peninsula (Actually more or less the whole area starting from near Shenyang and west of there). FR24 uses interpolation (aka a straight line) from the point where it lose track of a plane to its destination (ICN), which would put the plane directly over North Korea.

Going back to DL159, for example, and using the Flight Plan information from Flightaware. You can see that it "circle" around North Korean airspace by flying down Liaodong Peninsula, turn south then SE and East from there.
https://skyvector.com/?ll=36.7013107195 ... T1N%20RKSI

That circular path from Shenyang area to ICN is VERY common for pretty much every single South Korean flights going to NE China (So DLC, SHE, CGQ, HRB along with YNJ (Yanji), JMU (Jiamusi), and MDG (Mudanjiang); the last 3 all having large ethnic Korean population)
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14898
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Thu May 09, 2019 4:55 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
zeke wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:

yes, there was a minute chance, equivalent to that of any airliner being struck by a meteorite.


And what are the chances if a missile disintegrates ?


the same as a meteor, which often disintegrate into meteorites.


They had their second unannounced test launch this week.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1111
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Fri May 10, 2019 12:34 am

zeke wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
zeke wrote:

And what are the chances if a missile disintegrates ?


the same as a meteor, which often disintegrate into meteorites.


They had their second unannounced test launch this week.


All meteors are unannounced.

You're far too smart for this silliness, Zeke.
you don't ever need to fly over NK, do you? I assume your airline doesn't service Vladivostok, so not likely, eh?

but you do overfly China, Russia, right? How about Pakistan, Afghanistan, Israel, Syria; do you get anywhere close to the US military? ... you have no trepidation about areas of the world mired in nearly continual conflict, and positively brimming with serious ground to air weaponry? How much of this gear do you suppose NK has (hint: very little)? Do any of these "ground to ground" missiles that NK fires off (in their fits of sabre rattling or effective extortion) have capability to track an aircraft, much less contain a warhead?

you know how a.net fully promotes (rightfully) the theme that air travel is far safer than automobiles, certainly motorcycles, possibly buses and trains? I can easily make the case that overflight of NK (test fires and all) is far, far safer than overflying several other countries that have busy air traffic (presumably ones you overfly).

quick quiz:

who has shot down more civilian airliners since "The Korean Conflict" ?

1) Russia
2) China
3) USA
4) North Korea
5) Togo

what's your hangup with NK?
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14898
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Fri May 10, 2019 12:52 am

Unannounced test missile launches is my issue, operative word being test. There is no NOTAM no airspace closure.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1111
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Fri May 10, 2019 1:06 am

zeke wrote:
Unannounced test missile launches is my issue, operative word being test. There is no NOTAM no airspace closure.



seems to me that you're alot smarter about piloting and aerospace engineering than about global politics.
but I'll let you have the last word, so go for it.
 
flilot
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:45 am

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Fri May 10, 2019 1:06 am

My God, the amount of people on here that are probably wearing tin-foil hats whilst commenting is ridiculous.

You've probably more chance of your airliner developing a catastrophic failure (engine or airframe) during your flight than coming to ANY kind of grief flying through NK airspace.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14898
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Fri May 10, 2019 1:12 am

I have never flown though an active missile test area in a civil airliner, making a couple of hundred passengers and crew involuntary test subjects.

The chances of being an involuntary test subject of a missile failure is a lot higher. They do have regular failures, one of the reasons why these test are not announced.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1763
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Fri May 10, 2019 6:50 am

zeke wrote:
Unannounced test missile launches is my issue, operative word being test. There is no NOTAM no airspace closure.

Are there no restricted airspaces around the launch sites or other critical pieces of "infrastructure"? Most other countries block off areas reserved for military tests and training.
There's no reason to close all of NK's airspace when only a tiny portion could ever be affected.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14898
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Fri May 10, 2019 8:07 am

How do you know that only a tiny bit is effected?

Normally they launch close to the Chinese border going east, if there was a test failure (and there has been many) debris would come down over civil air routes.

I have been vectored in Japanese airspace when they launched towards HNL over Japan.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8779
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Fri May 10, 2019 9:32 am

kitplane01 wrote:
senatorflyer wrote:
North Korea is cashing in big time on usage of airspace by foreign airlines.


Someone educate me. I thought most responsible, western governments stopped their corporations from doing business with the NK. If so, how would Lufthansa or Delta pay the NK government?

What is “responsible” about not doing business with North Korea?
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Tue May 14, 2019 7:32 am

cedarjet wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
senatorflyer wrote:
North Korea is cashing in big time on usage of airspace by foreign airlines.


Someone educate me. I thought most responsible, western governments stopped their corporations from doing business with the NK. If so, how would Lufthansa or Delta pay the NK government?

What is “responsible” about not doing business with North Korea?


Either "responsible" as in not doing business with evil crazy dictators who are at war with the US, or "responsible" as in following the laws of western governments. If you disagree with the first, use the second.

BTW, if your pro-NK, your literally the first person I've ever corresponded with who is.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12951
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Tue May 14, 2019 11:46 am

johns624 wrote:
Many don't seem to realize the difference between a ballistic missile test and a SAM.


An AF flight came close enough to a NK missile on its way down some time ago. Pilots and passengers reported it.

That was far away from NK itself...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12951
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Tue May 14, 2019 12:35 pm

acavpics wrote:
What would happen if an airliner needed to make a diversion while it was flying over NK? - Let's say somebody had an an engine failure. Would they divert to a North Korean Airport?
I'm not trying to be all negative here. But something like this is definitely possible and airline need to be very prepared for such a scenario.


ETOPS-370
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
chimborazo
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:51 pm

Re: KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

Tue May 14, 2019 12:52 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
zeke wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:

yes, there was a minute chance, equivalent to that of any airliner being struck by a meteorite.


And what are the chances if a missile disintegrates ?


the same as a meteor, which often disintegrate into meteorites.


A disintegrating meteor creates more (but smaller) meteors.

A meteorite is a meteor that has not fully vaporised before reaching the surface of the earth.

A meteorite presents no hazard to aviation (unless I guess it’s sharp and happens to have landed on a runway causing a blown tyre).

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos