chiad
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IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 11:28 am

Bloomberg reports that IndiGo Budget Airline Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... arge-order

Indigo's orderbook has just fallen below 400 units, so clearly they need to increase it.
:cheeky:
 
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Slash787
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 11:30 am

I have a feeling they would order A330neo
 
EmoticonsAllDay
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 11:39 am

Slash787 wrote:
I have a feeling they would order A330neo


The article clearly mentions A321LR, A321XLR but not A330neo. Besides, it would be difficult for 6E or any carrier for that matter (except the govt. funded Air India) to survive with any wide bodies in the current Indian market due to price consciousness and high fuel prices.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 11:39 am

Looks like xLR. Also CFMs. :(
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sibibom
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 11:40 am

Widebody it will be! They have tasted success (far too early though) with Istanbul.

Plus with no Jet Airways, there is a demand for European destiations
 
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william
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 3:24 pm

Interesting they may go CFM, not P&W. So the fuel savings must be extremely close or on par.

"While IndiGo has so far confined past orders to Airbus, it hasn’t ruled out buying Boeing Co. jets in the future, according to Dutta. And the order being discussed with Airbus hasn’t been finalized."

Don't know what Boeing jets they have in mind or its just negotiating tactic.
 
GalebG4
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 3:29 pm

a321xlr, plus most probably cfm. Should be interesting!!!
A330neo would be nice to see!!!
 
YouGeeElWhy
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 3:54 pm

Why the F do they need a widebody frame. I just don't get why people keep calling for that. It is a fool's dream.

XLR is better in every way possible for 6E. India needs P2P planes, not hub dependent planes. Plus there are very few places that 6E would want to go that an XLR could not take them.
Last edited by YouGeeElWhy on Tue May 07, 2019 3:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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william
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 4:00 pm

Again, no comment as to them going CFM. We are told over and over on this board the superiority of GTF engines. Yet, an operator of the P&W GTF engine is willing to go CFM? Are both engines similar in fuel burn then? Does PW GTF have lower fuel burn but CFM's engine have less mx? This is fascinating to know, real world data and not just "spec" reading.
 
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 4:07 pm

william wrote:
Again, no comment as to them going CFM. We are told over and over on this board the superiority of GTF engines. Yet, an operator of the P&W GTF engine is willing to go CFM? Are both engines similar in fuel burn then? Does PW GTF have lower fuel burn but CFM's engine have less mx? This is fascinating to know, real world data and not just "spec" reading.

IndiGo has had an unusually high number of in flight shutdowns with their new GTFs and also had severe operational restrictions (e. g. FL300 max). Particularly the "less important" sections seem to be poorly executed on the PW1000 ... bearings, seals, combustion chambers etc. Depending on how well PW handled the situation and their outlook, I can understand their desire to check if the grass is actually greener on the other side.

However, I thought the XLR was only offered with the more powerful PW engines?
 
Olddog
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 4:22 pm

And you forgot a little component in the decision making: price. Who knows what is the total package offered now that Indigo is better established ?
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 6:14 pm

william wrote:
Again, no comment as to them going CFM. We are told over and over on this board the superiority of GTF engines. Yet, an operator of the P&W GTF engine is willing to go CFM? Are both engines similar in fuel burn then? Does PW GTF have lower fuel burn but CFM's engine have less mx? This is fascinating to know, real world data and not just "spec" reading.


I expect fuel consumption will be the primary criterion given the apparent emphasis on long range operations
 
musman9853
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 6:21 pm

william wrote:
Interesting they may go CFM, not P&W. So the fuel savings must be extremely close or on par.

"While IndiGo has so far confined past orders to Airbus, it hasn’t ruled out buying Boeing Co. jets in the future, according to Dutta. And the order being discussed with Airbus hasn’t been finalized."

Don't know what Boeing jets they have in mind or its just negotiating tactic.


797 maybe? kinda a strech imo. don't really think many lccs are gonna splurge on widebodies anymore after the failures of norwegian, jet, air berlin, etc.
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behramjee
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 8:09 pm

An all Y class A321Neo XLR with an average passenger + baggage weight of 100kg cannot operate DEL-LGW nonstop with a full payload (especially in winter) and would also struggle to do so on many other Western EU routes.

This flying to EU obsession, 6E needs to get rid off for the time being and instead focus on getting EU traffic with TK via IST. The network expansion should be limited to a 7-7.5 hour flying radius of India.

Instead of EU there are niche market segments in Central Asia, China, MRU, ASEAN, East Africa that need to be looked at which are shorter in flying time and lack nonstop service to India along with further expansion to KSA + GCC.

For example, Bali-BOM and Bali-DEL have become the fastest growing Far East Asia market segments out of India since 2015

In 2015, BOM-DPS was 47,000 pax round trip and in 2018 it was 141,000 !

In 2015, DEL-DPS was 48,000 pax round trip and in 2018 it was 105,000 pax.

If and I mean if 6E are so desperate for Western Europe, they should bide their time till 2025 and operate it using the new Boeing NMA / 797 aircraft which should be able to seat 320-330 pax in an all Y class configuration with 30 inch seat pitch.
 
edealinfo
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 11:49 pm

EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
Slash787 wrote:
I have a feeling they would order A330neo


The article clearly mentions A321LR, A321XLR but not A330neo. Besides, it would be difficult for 6E or any carrier for that matter (except the govt. funded Air India) to survive with any wide bodies in the current Indian market due to price consciousness and high fuel prices.


What is the major difference between the A321LR and A321XLR? Does the former have 2 ACTs and the latter 3? What is the max flying time on the two aircraft? Do they carry roughly the same # of passengers?
 
edealinfo
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 11:50 pm

sibibom wrote:
They have tasted success (far too early though) with Istanbul.


On what basis do you call their flight to IST a success?
 
edealinfo
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 11:50 pm

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
W
XLR is better in every way possible for 6E.


How so?
 
impilot
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue May 07, 2019 11:56 pm

edealinfo wrote:
EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
Slash787 wrote:
I have a feeling they would order A330neo


The article clearly mentions A321LR, A321XLR but not A330neo. Besides, it would be difficult for 6E or any carrier for that matter (except the govt. funded Air India) to survive with any wide bodies in the current Indian market due to price consciousness and high fuel prices.


What is the major difference between the A321LR and A321XLR? Does the former have 2 ACTs and the latter 3? What is the max flying time on the two aircraft? Do they carry roughly the same # of passengers?

LR has 3 ACTs. XLR doesn’t exist, but is said to have a conformal internal fuel tank in place of the ACTs that is more space efficient and lighter, allowing for about 500-700 miles more range. But we won’t really know until it’s more than just an idea.
 
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Wed May 08, 2019 1:19 am

edealinfo wrote:
sibibom wrote:
They have tasted success (far too early though) with Istanbul.


On what basis do you call their flight to IST a success?


Forward ticket sales were good enough for them to warrant starting of the second flight even before the actual first flight commenced.

ps : They fly to ISL, not IST
 
edealinfo
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Wed May 08, 2019 1:56 am

sibibom wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
sibibom wrote:
They have tasted success (far too early though) with Istanbul.


On what basis do you call their flight to IST a success?


Forward ticket sales were good enough for them to warrant starting of the second flight even before the actual first flight commenced.

ps : They fly to ISL, not IST


Wasn't the second flight intended to be a slot squatter so no other Indian carrier used the bilateral rights to ISL? In any case, hasn't the second flight been cancelled?
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Wed May 08, 2019 2:07 am

the adjective "BIG" refers to the number of aircraft or the aircraft size?
 
sibibom
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Wed May 08, 2019 2:29 am

edealinfo wrote:
sibibom wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
On what basis do you call their flight to IST a success?


Forward ticket sales were good enough for them to warrant starting of the second flight even before the actual first flight commenced.

ps : They fly to ISL, not IST


Wasn't the second flight intended to be a slot squatter so no other Indian carrier used the bilateral rights to ISL? In any case, hasn't the second flight been cancelled?


Who else could fly that route anyways? Sqautter theory has been suggested on this site, doesn't make it true. Both flights are showing, 6E11 and 6E15, so it's on....
 
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Fri May 10, 2019 9:19 am

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
Why the F do they need a widebody frame. I just don't get why people keep calling for that. It is a fool's dream.

XLR is better in every way possible for 6E. India needs P2P planes, not hub dependent planes. Plus there are very few places that 6E would want to go that an XLR could not take them.


Because there's actually production slots available. A320 family production is pretty thoroughly booked. Not saying I think that's what they'll do but that's why anyone would think that. It'd also probably be sold at a better discount for the same reason.
 
airboss787
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Sat May 11, 2019 5:00 am

sibibom wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
sibibom wrote:
They have tasted success (far too early though) with Istanbul.



ps : They fly to ISL, not IST


Pretty certain they fly to IST (new airport). If I remember correctly, the old airport handles no commercial passenger flights anymore.
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Rom1
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Sat May 11, 2019 9:46 am

sibibom wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
sibibom wrote:
They have tasted success (far too early though) with Istanbul.


On what basis do you call their flight to IST a success?


Forward ticket sales were good enough for them to warrant starting of the second flight even before the actual first flight commenced.

ps : They fly to ISL, not IST


Not convinced of the economics though, 1 flight with techstop on both ways must be very costly, yields must not be high either, even less with beyond traffic on TK
 
whiplash
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Sat May 11, 2019 10:24 am

For those people questioning the efficiency of the GTF in comparison to the LEAP; I was told by a pilot friend in IndiGo who was briefed during an annual refresher programme in Delhi that 6E is extremely pleased with the fuel burn of the P&Ws. It's giving them greater savings than what even they expected. The only reason why I imagine IndiGo might go with the CFM is due to the fact that the P&Ws are just not going to get EDTO clearance (in time) thanks to the large number of engine-related incidents. Not only can the NEOs with IndiGo fly EDTO, but they cannot even fly to Port Blair.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Sat May 11, 2019 1:46 pm

whiplash wrote:
For those people questioning the efficiency of the GTF in comparison to the LEAP; I was told by a pilot friend in IndiGo who was briefed during an annual refresher programme in Delhi that 6E is extremely pleased with the fuel burn of the P&Ws. It's giving them greater savings than what even they expected. The only reason why I imagine IndiGo might go with the CFM is due to the fact that the P&Ws are just not going to get EDTO clearance (in time) thanks to the large number of engine-related incidents. Not only can the NEOs with IndiGo fly EDTO, but they cannot even fly to Port Blair.


That may be a ground reality as of today, but no regulator can deny GTF ETOPS forever. In the wake of GTF and MAX, you don't want just one type of engine. Even WN started looking into other frames, though A220 will have the same engine as MAX.

And we are talking about a regulator who makes decisions based on a gift registry. MAX is safe, GTF no ETOPS.

The fuel efficiency may be a wash if you count AOG time, short term leases, NEO induced CEO Engine shop visits, ceiling restrictions, ETOPS restrictions and whatever comes in the future.

BTW, this is not the first time6E talked about the LEAP. In the past, they expressed interest in splitting the order.
 
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Sat May 11, 2019 4:18 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
whiplash wrote:
For those people questioning the efficiency of the GTF in comparison to the LEAP; I was told by a pilot friend in IndiGo who was briefed during an annual refresher programme in Delhi that 6E is extremely pleased with the fuel burn of the P&Ws. It's giving them greater savings than what even they expected. The only reason why I imagine IndiGo might go with the CFM is due to the fact that the P&Ws are just not going to get EDTO clearance (in time) thanks to the large number of engine-related incidents. Not only can the NEOs with IndiGo fly EDTO, but they cannot even fly to Port Blair.


That may be a ground reality as of today, but no regulator can deny GTF ETOPS forever. In the wake of GTF and MAX, you don't want just one type of engine. Even WN started looking into other frames, though A220 will have the same engine as MAX.

And we are talking about a regulator who makes decisions based on a gift registry. MAX is safe, GTF no ETOPS.

The fuel efficiency may be a wash if you count AOG time, short term leases, NEO induced CEO Engine shop visits, ceiling restrictions, ETOPS restrictions and whatever comes in the future.

BTW, this is not the first time6E talked about the LEAP. In the past, they expressed interest in splitting the order.

The A220 has the same engines as the MAX???
The A220 has exclusively the P&W PW1500G while the 737MAX has exclusively the CFM International LEAP-1B; same generation of engines, but completely different architectures (GTF vs regular turbofan).
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Sat May 11, 2019 4:36 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
...
The A220 has exclusively the P&W PW1500G while the 737MAX has exclusively the CFM International LEAP-1B; same generation of engines, but completely different architectures (GTF vs regular turbofan).


Thank you for correcting me. Didn't realize they are of different architecture.
 
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Sat May 11, 2019 5:02 pm

Slash787 wrote:
I have a feeling they would order A330neo


They should get some A350s and start non-stops to the US.
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Sat May 11, 2019 5:14 pm

sibibom wrote:
Widebody it will be! They have tasted success (far too early though) with Istanbul.

Plus with no Jet Airways, there is a demand for European destiations


Or maybe that was just the market stabilizing itself? Adding a replacement to Jet Airways so soon after their demise might be seen as repeating the same mistakes as before.
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behramjee
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Sat May 11, 2019 7:40 pm

DIJKKIJK wrote:
Slash787 wrote:
I have a feeling they would order A330neo


They should get some A350s and start non-stops to the US.


FYI an all Y class configured A359 won’t have the capability of flying nonstop to JFK from DEL. Even a 550 seater B77W won’t be able to make it.
 
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Sat May 11, 2019 9:11 pm

behramjee wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:
Slash787 wrote:
I have a feeling they would order A330neo


They should get some A350s and start non-stops to the US.


FYI an all Y class configured A359 won’t have the capability of flying nonstop to JFK from DEL. Even a 550 seater B77W won’t be able to make it.


Surely that post was sarcasm? 15 hour flights without premium cabins, and with zero IFE and cold food aren't going to work, lol.
 
emre787
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Sun May 12, 2019 7:36 pm

sibibom wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
sibibom wrote:
They have tasted success (far too early though) with Istanbul.


On what basis do you call their flight to IST a success?


Forward ticket sales were good enough for them to warrant starting of the second flight even before the actual first flight commenced.

ps : They fly to ISL, not IST


After the movement the Codes have been changed, the new is IST now and Atatürk is ISL ;)
 
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unrave
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Mon May 13, 2019 1:29 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
though A220 will have the same engine as MAX.

Simple FACTCHECK: FALSE.
A220 uses the PW GTF and MAX uses the CFM LEAP which are not remotely similar.
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DIJKKIJK
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Fri May 17, 2019 6:46 pm

behramjee wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:
Slash787 wrote:
I have a feeling they would order A330neo


They should get some A350s and start non-stops to the US.


FYI an all Y class configured A359 won’t have the capability of flying nonstop to JFK from DEL. Even a 550 seater B77W won’t be able to make it.


I doubt they are so foolish that they will put in the same 30 inch seat pitches they have on their A320s on their long haul routes.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
ddp
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Fri May 17, 2019 6:51 pm

Can the A321LR go from Delhi to the UK?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Fri May 17, 2019 7:44 pm

unrave wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
though A220 will have the same engine as MAX.

Simple FACTCHECK: FALSE.
A220 uses the PW GTF and MAX uses the CFM LEAP which are not remotely similar.

Was already answered one day before you...
 
behramjee
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Fri May 17, 2019 7:54 pm

ddp wrote:
Can the A321LR go from Delhi to the UK?


No it cannot...Switzerland/Germany maximum
 
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Slash787
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Fri May 17, 2019 8:49 pm

behramjee wrote:
ddp wrote:
Can the A321LR go from Delhi to the UK?


No it cannot...Switzerland/Germany maximum


If the A321Neo can go from Manila to Sydney then I am sure the A321LR would be able to go from Delhi to UK
 
B1168
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Fri May 17, 2019 10:36 pm

behramjee wrote:
An all Y class A321Neo XLR with an average passenger + baggage weight of 100kg cannot operate DEL-LGW nonstop with a full payload (especially in winter) and would also struggle to do so on many other Western EU routes.

This flying to EU obsession, 6E needs to get rid off for the time being and instead focus on getting EU traffic with TK via IST. The network expansion should be limited to a 7-7.5 hour flying radius of India.

Instead of EU there are niche market segments in Central Asia, China, MRU, ASEAN, East Africa that need to be looked at which are shorter in flying time and lack nonstop service to India along with further expansion to KSA + GCC.

For example, Bali-BOM and Bali-DEL have become the fastest growing Far East Asia market segments out of India since 2015

In 2015, BOM-DPS was 47,000 pax round trip and in 2018 it was 141,000 !

In 2015, DEL-DPS was 48,000 pax round trip and in 2018 it was 105,000 pax.

If and I mean if 6E are so desperate for Western Europe, they should bide their time till 2025 and operate it using the new Boeing NMA / 797 aircraft which should be able to seat 320-330 pax in an all Y class configuration with 30 inch seat pitch.


I have no ability to speak for others, but as far as I know, the Chinese-Indian market is actually quite underserved, given that there are only 6 daily per side, and Air India doesn’t have a ton of profit to allow expansion. Given that CX are utilizing 77w for India and 333 for CZ while the regular plane for such routes are usually on NB, there certainly are large volumes of traffic. 6E are most definitely advantageous on it by having ample amount of flight rights and the right equipment to do so.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Fri May 17, 2019 10:53 pm

Slash787 wrote:
behramjee wrote:
ddp wrote:
Can the A321LR go from Delhi to the UK?


No it cannot...Switzerland/Germany maximum


If the A321Neo can go from Manila to Sydney then I am sure the A321LR would be able to go from Delhi to UK

In a 16t payload, DEL-LHR is at the limit of the range. For higher, more like Indigo payloads, the xLR is required.

Lightsaber
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behramjee
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Fri May 17, 2019 11:10 pm

Slash787 wrote:
behramjee wrote:
ddp wrote:
Can the A321LR go from Delhi to the UK?


No it cannot...Switzerland/Germany maximum


If the A321Neo can go from Manila to Sydney then I am sure the A321LR would be able to go from Delhi to UK


You seem to be forgetting that PALs A32Ls seat 168 pax only whilst 6Es seat 222 ! Hence why PALs aircraft can fly further.

Even the XLR won’t be able to operate DEL-LGW with a full payload of 222 pax and baggage.
 
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Slash787
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Fri May 17, 2019 11:27 pm

What is even the use of XLR when it can't even fly from India to UK, XLR would have suited better if the A321 was stretched long as the B757-300 and had a range of an A310.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Sat May 18, 2019 12:05 am

behramjee wrote:
Slash787 wrote:
behramjee wrote:

No it cannot...Switzerland/Germany maximum


If the A321Neo can go from Manila to Sydney then I am sure the A321LR would be able to go from Delhi to UK


You seem to be forgetting that PALs A32Ls seat 168 pax only whilst 6Es seat 222 ! Hence why PALs aircraft can fly further.

Even the XLR won’t be able to operate DEL-LGW with a full payload of 222 pax and baggage.


IMHO logic behind long-haul-narrow-body is neither to fly at full economy capacity nor from a hub.

If there is demand for 222 pax, a 787/330 would do just fine, particularly from DEL.

An LHNB should be able to break-even with 180 or less. Sub fleet can have different config or skip middle seat to sell at a premium. Skipping most expensive hubs in the country, providing non-stop where there is demand improves yields.

NZ Sky Coach was a total failure, not sure how Air Astana doing with it, selling economy sleeper is another option, without breaking the bank in creating a premium cabin.

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