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JonesNL
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:45 pm

People dont care about comfort; see the success of ULCC's...
 
JonesNL
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:52 pm

Simple math for the needs of IndiGo when considering 25% growth

Year 2019 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026
Planes 225 281 351 439 549 686 858 1072

The order for 600 might be even too low given the expected growth and replacement needs.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:07 pm

What a month for the NEO!
 
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scbriml
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:12 pm

Now confirmed by Airbus!

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html
India’s IndiGo has placed a firm order for 300 A320neo Family aircraft. This marks one of Airbus’ largest aircraft orders ever with a single airline operator.

This latest IndiGo order comprises a mix of A320neo, A321neo and A321XLR aircraft. This will take IndiGo’s total number of A320neo Family aircraft orders to 730.
Last edited by scbriml on Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:12 pm

T4thH wrote:
unrave wrote:
Update: Reuters reports IndiGo is close to finalising an order for as many as 300 neo aircraft
https://www.reuters.com/article/indigo- ... SL8N27E21N

My guess is we'll see an order at the Dubai air show. Given their continued scepticism of widebody aircraft, the XLR looks like a lock in this order.


What IndiGo Ceo has once said? "We do not order small"....to get the best prices.

Yep, just like pretty much most CEO's and company do: order in bulk to get best prices.
Great deals off small orders are much harder to come by and usually tied to other circumstances (such as end of line).
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:13 pm

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
Why the F do they need a widebody frame. I just don't get why people keep calling for that. It is a fool's dream.

XLR is better in every way possible for 6E. India needs P2P planes, not hub dependent planes. Plus there are very few places that 6E would want to go that an XLR could not take them.


Totally disagree with you (for international flights). There is just no real market flying ATQ-MXP carrying recent immigrants back and forth. AI for years was a P2P airline flying all these random routes. They only saw traction when they created their DEL hub. Indigo should pick an airport that has decent business traffic and create a hub to fly international. Unfortunately both BOM and DEL have too high taxes and are full/close to full. That said, I think there is absolutely a place to run narrow bodies to say EU. You just need a mix of fleet type. India is a huge source country for international travel. The notion that an Indian airline flying wide bodies (and I am fine with high density wide bodies) is a fools errand is just crazy. Indian needs to figure out aviation asap. It is a big job creator and, from an Indian pov, these jobs are actually good ones.
 
sibibom
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:23 pm

Congrats Indigo/Airbus, pretty sure deliveries may go till the late 2020s. I hope Indian airports keep up with the infrastructure to sustain them, that probably is the only thing holding their 25% annual growth plans (let's hope the current economic slowdown should end in a year or two)
 
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unrave
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:23 pm

With this, IndiGo has ordered a total of 730 neo aircaft. So far it has taken delivery of 97 aircraft.
 
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william
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:28 pm

I asked the question 5 months ago and no one answered, whats the fuel burn difference between P&W GTF and CFM?
 
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qf789
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:29 pm

Engines to be powered by CFM versus P&W currently

https://twitter.com/AlexInAir/status/11 ... 26052?s=20
 
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william
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:31 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
T4thH wrote:
unrave wrote:
Update: Reuters reports IndiGo is close to finalising an order for as many as 300 neo aircraft
https://www.reuters.com/article/indigo- ... SL8N27E21N

My guess is we'll see an order at the Dubai air show. Given their continued scepticism of widebody aircraft, the XLR looks like a lock in this order.


What IndiGo Ceo has once said? "We do not order small"....to get the best prices.

Yep, just like pretty much most CEO's and company do: order in bulk to get best prices.
Great deals off small orders are much harder to come by and usually tied to other circumstances (such as end of line).


The Indigo management have proven to be savvy buyers. Congrats to Indigo and Airbus.

https://www.thehindu.com/business/Indus ... 821399.ece

"It comes days after IndiGo's biggest quarterly loss hurt by engine issues on its earlier A320neo jets.

A new deal for 300 A320neo-family aircraft would be worth $33 billion at the most recent list prices, published in 2018, but a deal of this scale would come in well below half that after discounts, according to aircraft valuation experts".
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:41 pm

Man this is insane, we shall see how they are doing years down the road.
 
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ACCS300
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:44 pm

Well done IndiGo and Airbus, the NEO is unstoppable and the 321neo is quickly becoming the king of the narrow-bodies!
 
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scbriml
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:46 pm

william wrote:
I asked the question 5 months ago and no one answered, whats the fuel burn difference between P&W GTF and CFM?


It's unlikely that anyone here who knows is able to share the information.
 
juliuswong
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:47 pm

300 firm order at signing! That must be a record for Airbus. The order will add few more years to A320neo family backlog. 730 A320neo! Amazing given how PW was giving them so much headache! It will take some time before someone else could break this record.
 
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scbriml
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:57 pm

unrave wrote:
With this, IndiGo has ordered a total of 730 neo aircaft. So far it has taken delivery of 97 aircraft.


They currently operate a fleet of 230 A320s and 22 ATRs.
 
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scbriml
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:59 pm

juliuswong wrote:
The order will add few more years to A320neo family backlog.


:confused:

It's about six months worth of production at current rates.
 
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william
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:59 pm

qf789 wrote:
Engines to be powered by CFM versus P&W currently

https://twitter.com/AlexInAir/status/11 ... 26052?s=20


The fuel burn and purchase price difference must not be that much, if any to make such a move.

Contrary to Anet group think that every airline is waiting with baited breathe to order an aircraft with GTF engines.
 
behramjee
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:14 pm

I wish the breakdown of how many A320neos, A321neos and A321neo-XLR was also mentioned in the official press release.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:16 pm

Quite a few airlines ordered the A320neo family frames with both engines.

IndiGo ordered 430 with P&W GTF and now 300 with CFM LEAP. I assume that both fleets are large enough that the profit from owning one type of engine gets small enough to discount it. On the other side it divides the risk, if something should happen to one engine type.

IndiGo has taken deliveries of 90 A320neo and 7 A321neo up to now, with 333 A320neo family frames with P&W GTF engines still to be delivered. IndiGo has already taken deliveries of 30 A320 family frames this year, with about 10 more to follow before the end of the year.

The undelivered A320neo family frames are now all together 633 frames.

Although the A320ceo fleet at IndiGo is on average only 10 years old, 30 frames have already left the fleet over the years with 127 remaining, 5 left this year. The turnover of the fleet to keep it young, seems to be fast.
 
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Erebus
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:31 pm

Oh the irony, announcing this massive firm order on the same day as when Boeing goes for a congressional hearing on the MAX...
 
WayexTDI
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:33 pm

behramjee wrote:
I wish the breakdown of how many A320neos, A321neos and A321neo-XLR was also mentioned in the official press release.

Most likely because the breakdown will be finalized later, and might even change as deliveries happen and local/global economy evolves in the future years.
 
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flee
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:40 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
behramjee wrote:
I wish the breakdown of how many A320neos, A321neos and A321neo-XLR was also mentioned in the official press release.

Most likely because the breakdown will be finalized later, and might even change as deliveries happen and local/global economy evolves in the future years.

We have seen in the past that Airbus is pretty flexible with the types and their delivery dates. They will try to accommodate their customers' requirements as far as possible. So we can expect the model mix and delivery to change from time to time - Airbus and Indigo will just have to talk to each other to make it possible.
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:44 pm

Congratulations, a great proof of confidence from IndiGo toward Airbus.

It's called a "firm order", which is cool, but can you have a firm order without aggreeing on a firm breakdown?
 
astuteman
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:46 pm

juliuswong wrote:
300 firm order at signing! That must be a record for Airbus. The order will add few more years to A320neo family backlog. 730 A320neo! Amazing given how PW was giving them so much headache! It will take some time before someone else could break this record.


Ironically, "no" and "no".

The record in one signing as far as I know was the 430 for (again ironically) Indigo Partners in the USA a couple of years ago. Will stand corrected.

And as Scrimbl said, 300 is only 6 months production :)

Rgds
 
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unrave
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:52 pm

Technically the largest Airbus order from a single carrier.
 
migair54
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:53 pm

sibibom wrote:
Congrats Indigo/Airbus, pretty sure deliveries may go till the late 2020s. I hope Indian airports keep up with the infrastructure to sustain them, that probably is the only thing holding their 25% annual growth plans (let's hope the current economic slowdown should end in a year or two)


That's going to be one of the biggest problems for all Indian airlines, many of the airports in India are pretty full and no much work is going on, some of them don't even have space, other problem will be some bilateral agreements that currently are restricting grow in big markets like UAE and China, but I think they are working on it.
Mumbai, Ahmedabad, Chennai, Kolkata, Trivandrum really need a new airports and in some cases the space is limited or there's no space for expansion.

I think the only airports that are really preparing for big market expansion in India are Delhi, Hyderabad and Bangalore.


What's the current situation with Indian taxes on spare parts for planes?? many indian airlines take planes to Sri Lanka for example becuase it's cheaper to do maintenance there.

behramjee wrote:
I wish the breakdown of how many A320neos, A321neos and A321neo-XLR was also mentioned in the official press release.

Because the deliveries are far from now, I think the current breakdown will be changing according to the requirements of the airlines in the future, IMO we will see more A321 then A320, it will be a good plane to add extra seats in routes where demand is big and it is like operating an A320, no extra handling, parking space or crew training is necessary.

scbriml wrote:
They currently operate a fleet of 230 A320s and 22 ATRs.


Quite impressive for an airline that is 12-13 years old only.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:57 pm

I'll never fly on one of IndiGo's A320s with their ketchup cheese sandwich on any flight longer than 3 hours.

You heard it here first.
 
Vladex
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:07 pm

Why aren't they converting to A321 entirely?
 
chiad
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:17 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
I'll never fly on one of IndiGo's A320s with their ketchup cheese sandwich on any flight longer than 3 hours.

You heard it here first.


It's good that a large part of the fleet will be A321s.
I hear those ketchup cheese sandwiches are way better.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:23 pm

JonesNL wrote:
Simple math for the needs of IndiGo when considering 25% growth

Year 2019 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026
Planes 225 281 351 439 549 686 858 1072

The order for 600 might be even too low given the expected growth and replacement needs.


Compounded growth of 25% annually with physical service delivery is a problem - especially with the extent and quality of relevant Indian infrastructure. Do you really think they're going to be bigger than Southwest is today within six years? I don't.
 
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unrave
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:27 pm

A good time to revisit this 14 year old thread from Paris Air Show of 2005 when IndiGo placed its first order of 100 aircraft. You've got to marvel at Anet's collective wisdom.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=335629
 
WayexTDI
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:41 pm

LaunchDetected wrote:
Congratulations, a great proof of confidence from IndiGo toward Airbus.

It's called a "firm order", which is cool, but can you have a firm order without aggreeing on a firm breakdown?

Because IndiGo and Airbus agreed to a contract that has specific terms. Whether those terms are 300 frames, X billions USD or Y passengers, that we do not know for sure; but, once the contract is fully executed, barring any amendment mutually agreed to by both parties, the terms will be respected.
 
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william
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:50 pm

unrave wrote:
A good time to revisit this 14 year old thread from Paris Air Show of 2005 when IndiGo placed its first order of 100 aircraft. You've got to marvel at Anet's collective wisdom.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=335629


Thanks for the trip down memory lane (I didn't post on it........"whew, that was a close one"). We miss Mariner and his posts.
 
MCTSET
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:10 pm

unrave wrote:
A good time to revisit this 14 year old thread from Paris Air Show of 2005 when IndiGo placed its first order of 100 aircraft. You've got to marvel at Anet's collective wisdom.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=335629


Absolutely agree. This was a post by an abetter 14 years ago when indigo first purchased 100 aircraft, enjoy :lol:

"As I have mentioned in my previous posts related to Indian aviation... this is just simply mania! Just like the go-go days of the Internet... just wait and see... most of these airlines will fail. Unlike what most people on A.net think, there is a finite number of passengers who will fly within India in the long run. Besides the infra-structure is simply not there in India to support this "exponential" expansion from airlines that barely or do not exist at all. Interestingly all these former executives who drove their former airlines into the ground who are now "big shots" India does not bode well for the country. They have no positive track record. It's like handing an unseccessful gambler more money and saying keep trying till you win! It is also interesting how the most successful airline company in India - Jet Airways, are going about their expansion plan in steps while unproved airline companies are placing big, sweeping orders for aircrafts and yet, they have no proven long-term track record of sound business practices or customer service. My money is still on Jet Airways and their business plan highlighting incremental increases in services over time."
 
majano
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:22 pm

MCTSET wrote:
unrave wrote:
A good time to revisit this 14 year old thread from Paris Air Show of 2005 when IndiGo placed its first order of 100 aircraft. You've got to marvel at Anet's collective wisdom.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=335629


Absolutely agree. This was a post by an abetter 14 years ago when indigo first purchased 100 aircraft, enjoy :lol:

"As I have mentioned in my previous posts related to Indian aviation... this is just simply mania! Just like the go-go days of the Internet... just wait and see... most of these airlines will fail. Unlike what most people on A.net think, there is a finite number of passengers who will fly within India in the long run. Besides the infra-structure is simply not there in India to support this "exponential" expansion from airlines that barely or do not exist at all. Interestingly all these former executives who drove their former airlines into the ground who are now "big shots" India does not bode well for the country. They have no positive track record. It's like handing an unseccessful gambler more money and saying keep trying till you win! It is also interesting how the most successful airline company in India - Jet Airways, are going about their expansion plan in steps while unproved airline companies are placing big, sweeping orders for aircrafts and yet, they have no proven long-term track record of sound business practices or customer service. My money is still on Jet Airways and their business plan highlighting incremental increases in services over time."

Man, oh man!! The above just very clearly illustrates that, "It is difficult to make predictions, especially about the future." as the Danes would say.
 
TObound
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:32 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
Simple math for the needs of IndiGo when considering 25% growth

Year 2019 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026
Planes 225 281 351 439 549 686 858 1072

The order for 600 might be even too low given the expected growth and replacement needs.


Compounded growth of 25% annually with physical service delivery is a problem - especially with the extent and quality of relevant Indian infrastructure. Do you really think they're going to be bigger than Southwest is today within six years? I don't.


Possible. It's a different business model. Stage lengths are probably lower, and infrastructure utilization higher. And the population numbers and economic growth being dealt with, is very different from the US. If they can find the crews, it's very, very possible.
 
unnayan
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:33 pm

Where will they park these many???
 
anshabhi
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:03 pm

IndiGo is in operational loss right now. Banks shouldn't finance any purchases until it regains profitability. We don't want another Kingfisher at any costs
 
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unrave
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:06 pm

IndiGo doesn't need back finance to fund these orders though
 
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william
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:23 pm

anshabhi wrote:
IndiGo is in operational loss right now. Banks shouldn't finance any purchases until it regains profitability. We don't want another Kingfisher at any costs


Are not these sale/leasbacks? Indigo will not have to carry the debt.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:45 pm

anshabhi wrote:
IndiGo is in operational loss right now. Banks shouldn't finance any purchases until it regains profitability. We don't want another Kingfisher at any costs

Actually, it's when you have the least money in your coffers that you need to spend the most. Remember: you need to spend money to make money.
 
sciing
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:47 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Quite a few airlines ordered the A320neo family frames with both engines.

IndiGo ordered 430 with P&W GTF and now 300 with CFM LEAP.

That is not correct.
Just the 1st 150 are P&W GTF.
Indigo ordered 280 CFMs this summer.
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1TI1OM
The 1st CFM seems to be MSN 9385
https://aibfamily.flights/A320/9385
 
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proudavgeek
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Re: IndiGo Prepares for Another 'Large' Airbus Order

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:24 pm

DIJKKIJK wrote:
Slash787 wrote:
I have a feeling they would order A330neo


They should get some A350s and start non-stops to the US.


One can always dream right?! :) I hope that that day does come and come sooner than expected... But I dont see them starting US flights atleast for next 3-5 years... Lets hope I am proved wrong..
 
T4thH
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:42 pm

Nice order for Airbus and order has been already stated as firm. That IndiGo will place a big order till end of 2019 was already announced earlier this year. So I am not surprised, also that they were interested in A321 LR and at that time still to be official started A321Xlr was already mentioned. But an order of additional 300 to the already ordered A320 Neo family members, is really big.

I am pretty sure, the 100 A320 pilots of Air India will not need to search for prolonged time, to get a new job.

And as regular done by Indian airlines, the jets will be bought, immediately sold to a lessor and leased again. Else the tax will kill the airline.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:04 pm

chiad wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
I'll never fly on one of IndiGo's A320s with their ketchup cheese sandwich on any flight longer than 3 hours.

You heard it here first.


It's good that a large part of the fleet will be A321s.
I hear those ketchup cheese sandwiches are way better.


Says who? The A321s are the same bar the length of the fuselage (and the consequent increase in capacity).
 
catiii
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:49 pm

Let's see if Airbus can actually deliver them on time...they aren't exactly staying on scheduled with their ACF fiasco.
 
Vladex
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:05 pm

william wrote:
I asked the question 5 months ago and no one answered, whats the fuel burn difference between P&W GTF and CFM?



I have read 18% (PW) to 15% (CFM) improvement on the CEO A320 version so about 3% in favor of PW.
 
chiad
Topic Author
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:19 pm

With this order Airbus has sold just shy of 7000 NEOs (around 6960 units). That's about 58.5% marketshare against the MAX.
Hopefully Spirit will firm their 100 MOU before year end.
2019 could turn out to be a decent year for Airbus.
 
vadodara
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Re: IndiGo places firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:40 pm

Way to go IndiGo!

Clearly proves they are betting on a P2P model. Chinese airlines who have collectively lost over a couple of billions last few years seems to vindicate IndiGo’s strategy.

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