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Ishrion
Topic Author
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Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Wed May 08, 2019 4:09 pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/Airlineroute ... 9679196160

Seems that they applied and the CAAC approved it. 4x weekly.

Pretty nice expansion from RAM. Adding flights to BOS and MIA this past year.
 
AF022
Posts: 1856
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:41 pm

Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Wed May 08, 2019 8:26 pm

I can't see how this would work. How can PEK connect to their network?
 
mhkansan
Posts: 869
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Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Wed May 08, 2019 8:29 pm

There has been HUGE Chinese investments in Africa generally, especially in infrastructure projects. The travel market between China and developing countries in Africa continues to grow, and RAM thinks they can do it better than the competition!
 
EBiafore99
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Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:03 pm

Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Wed May 08, 2019 8:36 pm

mhkansan wrote:
There has been HUGE Chinese investments in Africa generally, especially in infrastructure projects. The travel market between China and developing countries in Africa continues to grow, and RAM thinks they can do it better than the competition!


I wonder what countries have seen the investment. I believe RAM's African network is focused on western Africa.
 
cityshuttle
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:56 pm

Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Wed May 08, 2019 8:39 pm

Will they be flying to the new Daxing airport instead of PEK - given their future OneWorld membership ?
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
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Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Wed May 08, 2019 8:41 pm

If immediate connections are offered to Brazil, they will become a good competitor to Ethiopian, which has been exploring the Brazil-Asia market.
 
behramjee
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Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Wed May 08, 2019 8:42 pm

AF022 wrote:
I can't see how this would work. How can PEK connect to their network?


Totally agree with you from a commercial perspective as unless the local Govt is financially supporting it, there is no justification.

In 2018 the P2P market demand between CMN and PEK was just 29,000 pax round trip paying US$690 one way with YQ included. This would be AT’s first ULH route and it will be a massive risk considering the P2P base load market demand is very small.

They would be relying a lot on feeder traffic to Spain Portugal France ALG TUN DKR to fill the B787.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Wed May 08, 2019 8:53 pm

I would think that CAN would make more sense with CZ out of SkyTeam and more than willing to work with oneworld. AT joins oneworld next year.
 
MaverickM11
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Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Wed May 08, 2019 10:03 pm

EBiafore99 wrote:
mhkansan wrote:
There has been HUGE Chinese investments in Africa generally, especially in infrastructure projects. The travel market between China and developing countries in Africa continues to grow, and RAM thinks they can do it better than the competition!


I wonder what countries have seen the investment. I believe RAM's African network is focused on western Africa.

There's a large market but it is also vastly overserved with resultant low yields
I don't take responsibility at all
 
B1168
Posts: 507
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Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Wed May 08, 2019 10:06 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I would think that CAN would make more sense with CZ out of SkyTeam and more than willing to work with oneworld. AT joins oneworld next year.


Yeah. I am actually curious of the O&D demand on CAN-CMN. If that is over 30000, 2 weekly of 787-8 will be most definitely appreciated, given less capacity from CAN to south Europe.
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1678
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Wed May 08, 2019 10:10 pm

cityshuttle wrote:
Will they be flying to the new Daxing airport instead of PEK - given their future OneWorld membership ?

No oneworld airline is moving to PKX as far as I'm aware - so far. Maybe sans AA.

It could be either way depending on the slot time they're trying to get.

Michael
 
dredgy
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Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Wed May 08, 2019 11:50 pm

EBiafore99 wrote:
mhkansan wrote:
There has been HUGE Chinese investments in Africa generally, especially in infrastructure projects. The travel market between China and developing countries in Africa continues to grow, and RAM thinks they can do it better than the competition!


I wonder what countries have seen the investment. I believe RAM's African network is focused on western Africa.



Most, if not all, of them. I’ve worked and visited Mauritania, Niger and Guinea and all have large levels of Chinese investment. (Hotel I stayed at in Niamey had Chinese staff, all signage and materials were in Chinese). The Chinese usually invest in infrastructure - highways, ports, airports, trains etc.

Senegal, Ghana etc have even larger levels of investment, but aren’t as noticeable.
Africa is a continent full of rich resources that haven’t been exploited yet.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Thu May 09, 2019 12:24 am

EBiafore99 wrote:
mhkansan wrote:
There has been HUGE Chinese investments in Africa generally, especially in infrastructure projects. The travel market between China and developing countries in Africa continues to grow, and RAM thinks they can do it better than the competition!


I wonder what countries have seen the investment. I believe RAM's African network is focused on western Africa.


There's a Brookings study. The big money went to Nigeria, Angola, Ethiopia, Kenya, Zambia... What does Morocco have for energy, metals or minerals? This is not in support of a Chinese industrial development play.
 
Antarius
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Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Thu May 09, 2019 12:25 am

dredgy wrote:
Africa is a continent full of rich resources that haven’t been exploited yet.


Leopold II would beg to differ.
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dredgy
Posts: 486
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:13 am

Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Thu May 09, 2019 12:26 am

Antarius wrote:
dredgy wrote:
Africa is a continent full of rich resources that haven’t been exploited yet.


Leopold II would beg to differ.


Yeah, fair enough. Most people wouldn’t consider human hands a resource though.
But yes, Africa has obviously been and continues to be exploited in every possible way.
 
behramjee
Posts: 5068
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Thu May 09, 2019 1:27 am

B1168 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I would think that CAN would make more sense with CZ out of SkyTeam and more than willing to work with oneworld. AT joins oneworld next year.


Yeah. I am actually curious of the O&D demand on CAN-CMN. If that is over 30000, 2 weekly of 787-8 will be most definitely appreciated, given less capacity from CAN to south Europe.


I've re-checked the demand levels and to my surprise as well as to everyone over here, Shanghai (PVG) is the biggest P2P market in China for CMN which isnt the case for any other African major city.

*Round trip pax below for 2018

PVG / CMN - 40,000
PEK / CMN - 29,000
CAN / CMN - 17,000

The yields of CMN-PEK however were +25% higher than PVG and CAN last year most likely due to higher number of J class flying politicians + businessman doing govt related work.
 
B1168
Posts: 507
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Thu May 09, 2019 1:57 am

behramjee wrote:
B1168 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I would think that CAN would make more sense with CZ out of SkyTeam and more than willing to work with oneworld. AT joins oneworld next year.


Yeah. I am actually curious of the O&D demand on CAN-CMN. If that is over 30000, 2 weekly of 787-8 will be most definitely appreciated, given less capacity from CAN to south Europe.


I've re-checked the demand levels and to my surprise as well as to everyone over here, Shanghai (PVG) is the biggest P2P market in China for CMN which isnt the case for any other African major city.

*Round trip pax below for 2018

PVG / CMN - 40,000
PEK / CMN - 29,000
CAN / CMN - 17,000

The yields of CMN-PEK however were +25% higher than PVG and CAN last year most likely due to higher number of J class flying politicians + businessman doing govt related work.


Wow. Appreciate the data. Maybe the demand for CAN concentrates to East Africa and South.
How many weekly do you think they should fly? Do you think 788 or 789 is better to utilize?
 
behramjee
Posts: 5068
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Thu May 09, 2019 2:26 am

B1168 wrote:
behramjee wrote:
B1168 wrote:

Yeah. I am actually curious of the O&D demand on CAN-CMN. If that is over 30000, 2 weekly of 787-8 will be most definitely appreciated, given less capacity from CAN to south Europe.


I've re-checked the demand levels and to my surprise as well as to everyone over here, Shanghai (PVG) is the biggest P2P market in China for CMN which isnt the case for any other African major city.

*Round trip pax below for 2018

PVG / CMN - 40,000
PEK / CMN - 29,000
CAN / CMN - 17,000

The yields of CMN-PEK however were +25% higher than PVG and CAN last year most likely due to higher number of J class flying politicians + businessman doing govt related work.


Wow. Appreciate the data. Maybe the demand for CAN concentrates to East Africa and South.
How many weekly do you think they should fly? Do you think 788 or 789 is better to utilize?


They should NOT fly nonstop as the losses will be the biggest of any route that they have operated in the past as the block time will be 12:30 approximately. If they really need to fly there, then I would suggest they get 5th freedom traffic rights and operate 3 weekly B788s via AMM or DOH (One World hubs) or KWI so that the local carriers of those 2 cities can feed it adequately with their own network pax as they wont be able to fill China relying on North Africa.
 
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eta unknown
Posts: 2801
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Thu May 09, 2019 5:49 am

12:30 in a 787 wouldn't break the bank. Nonstop should be fine as the connections will probably be coming from Eastern Africa, not the Maghreb region.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Thu May 09, 2019 6:09 am

dredgy wrote:
Africa is a continent full of rich resources that haven’t been exploited yet.


The booms are over, the profits have been stolen and redistributed to the top

China has had large gains and the debt countries owe to them is going to depress economic growth.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/sp ... smuggling/

https://www.un.org/africarenewal/magazi ... its-africa

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/africa-i ... countries/

https://www.engineeringnews.co.za/artic ... 2018-11-20

https://qz.com/africa/1542644/china-deb ... -position/
 
behramjee
Posts: 5068
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Thu May 09, 2019 6:56 am

eta unknown wrote:
12:30 in a 787 wouldn't break the bank. Nonstop should be fine as the connections will probably be coming from Eastern Africa, not the Maghreb region.


You obviously do not know what you are talking about as no one from East Africa will first fly to CMN and then take a connection backwards to PEK.

Secondly RAM does not fly to any East African destination.
 
B1168
Posts: 507
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Thu May 09, 2019 12:10 pm

behramjee wrote:
B1168 wrote:
behramjee wrote:

I've re-checked the demand levels and to my surprise as well as to everyone over here, Shanghai (PVG) is the biggest P2P market in China for CMN which isnt the case for any other African major city.

*Round trip pax below for 2018

PVG / CMN - 40,000
PEK / CMN - 29,000
CAN / CMN - 17,000

The yields of CMN-PEK however were +25% higher than PVG and CAN last year most likely due to higher number of J class flying politicians + businessman doing govt related work.


Wow. Appreciate the data. Maybe the demand for CAN concentrates to East Africa and South.
How many weekly do you think they should fly? Do you think 788 or 789 is better to utilize?


They should NOT fly nonstop as the losses will be the biggest of any route that they have operated in the past as the block time will be 12:30 approximately. If they really need to fly there, then I would suggest they get 5th freedom traffic rights and operate 3 weekly B788s via AMM or DOH (One World hubs) or KWI so that the local carriers of those 2 cities can feed it adequately with their own network pax as they wont be able to fill China relying on North Africa.


That much O&D should constitute enough traffic without connection. The point is to optimize the timing to allow feeding in China.
behramjee wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
12:30 in a 787 wouldn't break the bank. Nonstop should be fine as the connections will probably be coming from Eastern Africa, not the Maghreb region.


You obviously do not know what you are talking about as no one from East Africa will first fly to CMN and then take a connection backwards to PEK.

Secondly RAM does not fly to any East African destination.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5665
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Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Thu May 09, 2019 12:17 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
EBiafore99 wrote:
mhkansan wrote:
There has been HUGE Chinese investments in Africa generally, especially in infrastructure projects. The travel market between China and developing countries in Africa continues to grow, and RAM thinks they can do it better than the competition!


I wonder what countries have seen the investment. I believe RAM's African network is focused on western Africa.


There's a Brookings study. The big money went to Nigeria, Angola, Ethiopia, Kenya, Zambia... What does Morocco have for energy, metals or minerals? This is not in support of a Chinese industrial development play.


Comparing Morocco to Nigeria is far fetched. It is like comparing Netherlands to Albania; other than being in the same continent there are not many things in common.

In addition to RAM connections to Brazil, Europe and Africa, Morocco has something that those countries do not have (at least in massive numbers; maybe except Kenya): tourism.

I wouldn't be surprised that at some point Marrakech gets a PHL-RAK flight on AA or something like that.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5665
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Thu May 09, 2019 12:26 pm

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2018/1 ... -tourists/

Rabat – The number of Chinese tourists in Morocco rose from 10,000 in 2015 to nearly 200,000 people this year, according to the minister of tourism Mohammed Sajid. He met with the Chinese deputy minister of culture and tourism, Li Jinzao, on Sunday in Marrakech.


A 1,900% increase in 3 years is not bad.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
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Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Thu May 09, 2019 1:21 pm

Apologies I meant West African connections not East Africa... As not so politely mentioned by someone above, nobody of course will fly backwards to CMN.
 
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c933103
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Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Thu May 09, 2019 10:48 pm

behramjee wrote:
B1168 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I would think that CAN would make more sense with CZ out of SkyTeam and more than willing to work with oneworld. AT joins oneworld next year.


Yeah. I am actually curious of the O&D demand on CAN-CMN. If that is over 30000, 2 weekly of 787-8 will be most definitely appreciated, given less capacity from CAN to south Europe.


I've re-checked the demand levels and to my surprise as well as to everyone over here, Shanghai (PVG) is the biggest P2P market in China for CMN which isnt the case for any other African major city.

*Round trip pax below for 2018

PVG / CMN - 40,000
PEK / CMN - 29,000
CAN / CMN - 17,000

The yields of CMN-PEK however were +25% higher than PVG and CAN last year most likely due to higher number of J class flying politicians + businessman doing govt related work.

On the other hand I recall the CAN airport authority also mentioned that they will add CMN?
Nya! Nya! Nya! Nya!
Nya! Nya! Nya! Nya!
Meow Meow Meow! Meow Meow Meow Meow!
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Fri May 10, 2019 2:41 am

SCQ83 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
EBiafore99 wrote:

I wonder what countries have seen the investment. I believe RAM's African network is focused on western Africa.


There's a Brookings study. The big money went to Nigeria, Angola, Ethiopia, Kenya, Zambia... What does Morocco have for energy, metals or minerals? This is not in support of a Chinese industrial development play.


Comparing Morocco to Nigeria is far fetched. It is like comparing Netherlands to Albania; other than being in the same continent there are not many things in common.

In addition to RAM connections to Brazil, Europe and Africa, Morocco has something that those countries do not have (at least in massive numbers; maybe except Kenya): tourism.

I wouldn't be surprised that at some point Marrakech gets a PHL-RAK flight on AA or something like that.


What about a summer seasonal JFK-RAK flight that could be on the MAX 8 (with the last row blocked)? That would be more economical, and at JFK, it could arrive sooner than the CMN flight as it could use Gate 1 at Terminal 1 (since Gate 1 can only handle a narrow-body or a Boeing 767). If AT's B38M is configured the same as the B738, it's J12Y147. No plane is on that gate after 4O leaves around 5 PM...meaning it could arrive around 5:30 PM and depart around 8 PM.

As for this, I see the B763s sticking around longer as AT will need the wide-body lift (they had 4 passenger B763s, but it's 3 now after 1 was bought off lease and converted to a freighter) until AT places a top-up order for B789s.
 
Antarius
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Re: Royal Air Maroc Casablanca to Beijing

Fri May 10, 2019 8:07 am

SCQ83 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
EBiafore99 wrote:

I wonder what countries have seen the investment. I believe RAM's African network is focused on western Africa.


There's a Brookings study. The big money went to Nigeria, Angola, Ethiopia, Kenya, Zambia... What does Morocco have for energy, metals or minerals? This is not in support of a Chinese industrial development play.


Comparing Morocco to Nigeria is far fetched. It is like comparing Netherlands to Albania; other than being in the same continent there are not many things in common.

In addition to RAM connections to Brazil, Europe and Africa, Morocco has something that those countries do not have (at least in massive numbers; maybe except Kenya): tourism.

I wouldn't be surprised that at some point Marrakech gets a PHL-RAK flight on AA or something like that.


Nigeria has a GDP that is over 3 times that of Morocco. Netherlands over Albania is a factor of 67.
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