behramjee
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Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 7:01 am

Link: https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... 19-results

Emirates announces a -69% drop in net profits for the financial year 2018-19 ending on 31mar.

Net profit of the airline itself was $237m where as the Emirates Group was $631m as DNATA made the balance of $394m.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 7:07 am

Is the DXB runway construction still going on
 
worldranger
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 10:29 am

Yes, until end of May.

In this years EK results, interesting to see in Chairman’s remarks the negative effect on the EK model of point to point with ULR pairings and how the airline had to change.

Merge already....build DWC ....or the downward trend will continue.
 
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SQ789
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 10:35 am

Ishrion wrote:
Is the DXB runway construction still going on

Yup. Until at least 30 of May
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 11:16 am

worldranger wrote:
Yes, until end of May.

In this years EK results, interesting to see in Chairman’s remarks the negative effect on the EK model of point to point with ULR pairings and how the airline had to change.

Merge already....build DWC ....or the downward trend will continue.


And....get rid of the excess 70 or so “very profitable” A380 profit makers in favour of something a bit less comfy.
 
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DL747400
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 1:25 pm

behramjee wrote:
Emirates announces a -69% drop in net profits for the financial year 2018-19 ending on 31mar.


Yes, higher oil prices are hitting them EK harder than others, especially with their large fleet of fuel sucking 4-engined A380s. Perhaps sharply lower profit is a result of ineffective inventory management and overcapacity? Are we seeing the levels to which EK has had to lower fares in recent months in order to fill empty seats?
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

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Amiga500
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 1:46 pm

worldranger wrote:
the negative effect on the EK model of point to point with ULR pairings and how the airline had to change.


Going through a single big hub will always open up more end points as viable markets than direct traffic.

While EK might lose out on some ULR direct traffic - they've still got major inherent benefits.

They may expect to contract a bit - but that is not going to be terminal.
 
airbazar
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 1:53 pm

DL747400 wrote:
behramjee wrote:
Emirates announces a -69% drop in net profits for the financial year 2018-19 ending on 31mar.


Yes, higher oil prices are hitting them EK harder than others, especially with their large fleet of fuel sucking 4-engined A380s. Perhaps sharply lower profit is a result of ineffective inventory management and overcapacity? Are we seeing the levels to which EK has had to lower fares in recent months in order to fill empty seats?

Manny airlines around the world are experiencing a significant drop in profits and some even went out of business. It will happen here too and it already has in some sense if you look at B6's profit decline for Q1. It has nothing to do with the A380. Fuel prices went up fast and if the airlines were not edged against it, they were impacted.
The expectation was that oil prices would drop in 2019 which it did at the beginning of the year but it's coming back up again.
http://www.infomine.com/investment/meta ... il/5-year/
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 2:28 pm

Airbazar..

It has nothing to do with the A380.


Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.
 
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RayChuang
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 2:45 pm

I think EK will have a much smaller A388 fleet (about 50 planes at most), and much of the long-range flying will shift to the 777X models. I wouldn't be surprised that some of the EK routes to the USA eventually switches to the 777-9 once that becomes available in quantity.
 
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Aquila3
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 3:00 pm

emiratesdriver wrote:
Airbazar..

It has nothing to do with the A380.


Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.


Tell me a reason why one should fly Emirates without the A380 (in Y).
Without them EK will be an airline like all the others, and quite an average one, I would say.
chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
 
airbazar
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 3:25 pm

emiratesdriver wrote:
Airbazar..

It has nothing to do with the A380.


Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.


Those are 2 different things. The A380 is still the most fuel efficient way to transport 500 passengers in relative comfort, over 5000nm. If EK can't fill all the seats, that's not the A380's problem.
The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 4:32 pm

airbazar wrote:
emiratesdriver wrote:
Airbazar..

It has nothing to do with the A380.


Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.


Those are 2 different things. The A380 is still the most fuel efficient way to transport 500 passengers in relative comfort, over 5000nm. If EK can't fill all the seats, that's not the A380's problem.
The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.


airbazar, so EK are just using the 380 the wrong way then? perhaps you should contact little Tim? Maybe he will listen to your words of wisdom as opposed to everyone else.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 4:41 pm

I think the 787 and A350 have also hurt EK. The ability to fly non stop eliminated the appeal of EK and a stop over in Dubai.
 
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cpd
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 5:00 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
I think the 787 and A350 have also hurt EK. The ability to fly non stop eliminated the appeal of EK and a stop over in Dubai.


No airline flies non stop where I want to go. Sydney-Geneva? Sydney-Nice? Not possible. So Emirates it is for the time being.
 
airbazar
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 5:20 pm

emiratesdriver wrote:
airbazar wrote:
emiratesdriver wrote:
Airbazar..



Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.


Those are 2 different things. The A380 is still the most fuel efficient way to transport 500 passengers in relative comfort, over 5000nm. If EK can't fill all the seats, that's not the A380's problem.
The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.


airbazar, so EK are just using the 380 the wrong way then? perhaps you should contact little Tim? Maybe he will listen to your words of wisdom as opposed to everyone else.


I think he figured it out by himself. That's why he went back on the A359 order after having cancelled it. Pretty much everyone knew that canceling the A359 order was a bad idea. Even an armchair CEO like me saw that but his ego and arrogance led him to believe that the 77W was the smallest plane EK was ever going to need. Guess what, he was wrong. In fact he was so wrong that he even ordered A330's. Shocker!
 
BAorAB
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 5:37 pm

Emirates will be just fine! The mere fact that they can turn a profit with current oil prices and without their optimal planned fleet in place is a testament in itself. Flying around 100+ A380's and being a profitable airline should be worth commending itself. Imagine where profits will go once the (150) 779's,(30) A359's, A339's and (40)787x's come online, which are all planned, albeit the A339's seem suspect, I expect this part of the Airbus order to end up like the A380 top up order, Dead!

point to point all over the globe with 150+ 777x's and 70 78X's and A359's is going to be an upcoming efficient and smooth operation. Expect them to keep 50 A380's for routes like LHR, MAN, SFO, LAX JFK, SYD where they can fill them easily. Emirates may be in the worst spot they will ever be in regards to fleet mix, and still being able to turn a profit means things will only get better. And imagine how much better once Etihad finally goes out of business! :lol: :stirthepot:

Although they seriously need to do something about their 777 business class product. With BA finally upgrading EK and LH may end up with the worst products in the market.
 
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 5:46 pm

Aquila3 wrote:
Tell me a reason why one should fly Emirates without the A380 (in Y).
Without them EK will be an airline like all the others, and quite an average one, I would say.


I would say, either you haven't flown the average ones, or you haven't flown EK ...

Ask yourself which came first ... EK's success or the A380s? There lies the answer
 
xwb777
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 5:46 pm

BAorAB wrote:
Emirates will be just fine! The mere fact that they can turn a profit with current oil prices and without their optimal planned fleet in place is a testament in itself. Flying around 100+ A380's and being a profitable airline should be worth commending itself. Imagine where profits will go once the (150) 779's,(30) A359's, A339's and (40)787x's come online, which are all planned, albeit the A339's seem suspect, I expect this part of the Airbus order to end up like the A380 top up order, Dead!

point to point all over the globe with 150+ 777x's and 70 78X's and A359's is going to be an upcoming efficient and smooth operation. Expect them to keep 50 A380's for routes like LHR, MAN, SFO, LAX JFK, SYD where they can fill them easily. Emirates may be in the worst spot they will ever be in regards to fleet mix, and still being able to turn a profit means things will only get better. And imagine how much better once Etihad finally goes out of business! :lol: :stirthepot:

Although they seriously need to do something about their 777 business class product. With BA finally upgrading EK and LH may end up with the worst products in the market.


Emirates won't be taking delivery of the B787-10.
 
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AA777223
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 5:49 pm

Aquila3 wrote:
emiratesdriver wrote:
Airbazar..

It has nothing to do with the A380.


Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.


Tell me a reason why one should fly Emirates without the A380 (in Y).
Without them EK will be an airline like all the others, and quite an average one, I would say.

I think the better question is who wants to fly EK in J without the A380. Their J product is incredibly subpar on the 777. It has always amazed me how much people gush over EK in J, with that nasty 2-3-2 angled lie flat. Ugh...
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 6:01 pm

airbazar wrote:
emiratesdriver wrote:
Airbazar..

It has nothing to do with the A380.


Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.


Those are 2 different things. The A380 is still the most fuel efficient way to transport 500 passengers in relative comfort, over 5000nm. If EK can't fill all the seats, that's not the A380's problem.
The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.

No.

The A380 is more cost effective to transport a passenger 5000nm thanks to efficiencies moving so many people at once. It used a tiny amount more fuel than a 77W. So unless you think the 787-10, A358, A350-1000, and 779 are totally botched, it is the wrong fleet mix. Recall the A388 losses floor space in EK's configuration for fa rest. Other aircraft use the crown. SQ sacrifices cargo for crew rest.

Where the A380 thrives is very high premium markets. Until the 779 arrives. At that point the profit per flight, with or without the network effect, shifts to the large Boeing.

EK is no longer the boogyman. They ran out of prime time (most profitable) slots at DXB. FZ only works on a few routes without connections. DWC cannot be expanded without EK profits as the subsidize Dubai (not the other way around).

I've posted for years the way to compete against the ME3 is to bypass them. IST/SAW (TK/Pegasus)
and ADD (ET) have started. It amazes me that after so long India hasn't built the infrastructure and modified policy and taxes to be the hub. Meh...

EK's best years are in the rearview mirror. Cest la vie. Eventually QR and EY will have to adopt reality which will ease EK's plight. Jet's shutdown will provide perhaps 15 months of relief. But then, as better run (more efficient) competition becomes established, it will become tougher for EK.

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acavpics
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 6:09 pm

It's a good thing that they ordered A330neos and A350-900's. Currently their smallest/lowest capacity plane is the 10 abreast 77L. I think it was a mistake to retire the A330-200's so early. EK should have refurbished them and continued to use them for their regional and low demand routes until the A330neo comes in.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 6:43 pm

xwb777 wrote:
BAorAB wrote:
Emirates will be just fine! The mere fact that they can turn a profit with current oil prices and without their optimal planned fleet in place is a testament in itself. Flying around 100+ A380's and being a profitable airline should be worth commending itself. Imagine where profits will go once the (150) 779's,(30) A359's, A339's and (40)787x's come online, which are all planned, albeit the A339's seem suspect, I expect this part of the Airbus order to end up like the A380 top up order, Dead!

point to point all over the globe with 150+ 777x's and 70 78X's and A359's is going to be an upcoming efficient and smooth operation. Expect them to keep 50 A380's for routes like LHR, MAN, SFO, LAX JFK, SYD where they can fill them easily. Emirates may be in the worst spot they will ever be in regards to fleet mix, and still being able to turn a profit means things will only get better. And imagine how much better once Etihad finally goes out of business! :lol: :stirthepot:

Although they seriously need to do something about their 777 business class product. With BA finally upgrading EK and LH may end up with the worst products in the market.


Emirates won't be taking delivery of the B787-10.


Is that confirmed? Nothing seems to have been said either way?
 
acavpics
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 6:49 pm

BAorAB wrote:
Emirates will be just fine! The mere fact that they can turn a profit with current oil prices and without their optimal planned fleet in place is a testament in itself. Flying around 100+ A380's and being a profitable airline should be worth commending itself. Imagine where profits will go once the (150) 779's,(30) A359's, A339's and (40)787x's come online, which are all planned, albeit the A339's seem suspect, I expect this part of the Airbus order to end up like the A380 top up order, Dead!

point to point all over the globe with 150+ 777x's and 70 78X's and A359's is going to be an upcoming efficient and smooth operation. Expect them to keep 50 A380's for routes like LHR, MAN, SFO, LAX JFK, SYD where they can fill them easily. Emirates may be in the worst spot they will ever be in regards to fleet mix, and still being able to turn a profit means things will only get better. And imagine how much better once Etihad finally goes out of business! :lol: :stirthepot:

Although they seriously need to do something about their 777 business class product. With BA finally upgrading EK and LH may end up with the worst products in the market.


Etihad is not going out of business.
 
xwb777
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 6:51 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
BAorAB wrote:
Emirates will be just fine! The mere fact that they can turn a profit with current oil prices and without their optimal planned fleet in place is a testament in itself. Flying around 100+ A380's and being a profitable airline should be worth commending itself. Imagine where profits will go once the (150) 779's,(30) A359's, A339's and (40)787x's come online, which are all planned, albeit the A339's seem suspect, I expect this part of the Airbus order to end up like the A380 top up order, Dead!

point to point all over the globe with 150+ 777x's and 70 78X's and A359's is going to be an upcoming efficient and smooth operation. Expect them to keep 50 A380's for routes like LHR, MAN, SFO, LAX JFK, SYD where they can fill them easily. Emirates may be in the worst spot they will ever be in regards to fleet mix, and still being able to turn a profit means things will only get better. And imagine how much better once Etihad finally goes out of business! :lol: :stirthepot:

Although they seriously need to do something about their 777 business class product. With BA finally upgrading EK and LH may end up with the worst products in the market.


Emirates won't be taking delivery of the B787-10.


Is that confirmed? Nothing seems to have been said either way?


As per the announcement, The first B777-9 will start arriving next year. The A330NEO and A350 will start arriving in 2021 & 2024 respectively, along with 14 A380s.
https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... 19-results
 
Strato2
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 7:05 pm

lightsaber wrote:
It used a tiny amount more fuel than a 77W.


Not in an apples to apples configuration. The 77W needs to be crammed with seats (10-abreast) to be able to live with the Superjumbo.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 7:18 pm

xwb777 wrote:

As per the announcement, The first B777-9 will start arriving next year. The A330NEO and A350 will start arriving in 2021 & 2024 respectively, along with 14 A380s.
https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... 19-results


But that says the A33neo/A359 are commitments - no different to the 787s? They could suffer the same fate.

Nor does it say that the 787 mou is gone?

Who knows. Very odd.
 
xwb777
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 7:30 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
xwb777 wrote:

As per the announcement, The first B777-9 will start arriving next year. The A330NEO and A350 will start arriving in 2021 & 2024 respectively, along with 14 A380s.
https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... 19-results


But that says the A33neo/A359 are commitments - no different to the 787s? They could suffer the same fate.

Nor does it say that the 787 mou is gone?

Who knows. Very odd.


In their financial statement they have mentioned the A330s and A350s. No word on the B787. https://cdn.ek.aero/downloads/ek/pdfs/r ... t_2019.pdf

The A330NEOs will be doing similar missions as the B787.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 7:52 pm

xwb777 wrote:
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
xwb777 wrote:

As per the announcement, The first B777-9 will start arriving next year. The A330NEO and A350 will start arriving in 2021 & 2024 respectively, along with 14 A380s.
https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... 19-results


But that says the A33neo/A359 are commitments - no different to the 787s? They could suffer the same fate.

Nor does it say that the 787 mou is gone?

Who knows. Very odd.


In their financial statement they have mentioned the A330s and A350s. No word on the B787. https://cdn.ek.aero/downloads/ek/pdfs/r ... t_2019.pdf

The A330NEOs will be doing similar missions as the B787.


Basically EK bought A330's to offset the A380's that are cancelled. EK has not mentioned nor completed orders for the 78X since the announcement back in 2017. So, at least for now, the 78X is not in EK's plans
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 8:06 pm

Strato2 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
It used a tiny amount more fuel than a 77W.


Not in an apples to apples configuration. The 77W needs to be crammed with seats (10-abreast) to be able to live with the Superjumbo.

Since no one pays more for A380 Y, I respectfully disagree. At 9-across, the 77W burns a few percentage more, at 10-across a little less.

The claim was most efficient for fuel. In EK's long haul configuration, the 77W burns less per passenger than their A388.

The A388 does cost less per passenger than the 77W as when you send out a crew, it requires fewer hours per passenger. But it is worse than the A359, A35K, 787-10, 778, or 779.

EK definitely has the wrong fleet mix. I know this is 20/20 hindsight, but oh well. In today's environment, they must reduce the fleet.

Do recall this is partially due to the failed Trent PIP comparing to a very successful series of GE-90 PIPs. So not completely Apples to Apples. But that is why aircraft and engines must be PIPed and volume pays for PIPs.

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Aquila3
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 8:21 pm

ASA wrote:
Aquila3 wrote:
Tell me a reason why one should fly Emirates without the A380 (in Y).
Without them EK will be an airline like all the others, and quite an average one, I would say.


I would say, either you haven't flown the average ones, or you haven't flown EK ...

Ask yourself which came first ... EK's success or the A380s? There lies the answer

I do not know what you mean.
I am back from DXB from just a couple of days.
I fly my 20 or 30 roundtrips a year, and I do my comparisons. Until couple of years ago EU to Asia for me was almost always EK. I have flown all the average ones that I could think of including the US3.
But even for people that seldom fly, they like EK because of the 380. They identify EK with the 380. Or do you think they like to be crammed 10 ab. on a 777 or spending 2+ hours on a bus plus another hour walking while switching at DXB? I am not saying that it will be always like that, but without 380 there will be better alternatives to EK. I have flown to PK with QR recently. Better hub, better plane that the old stinky EK 777, better price....
TK has a ton of options for near East, is a Star, better food and booze, should I go on? The only advantage I can see for EK flying Y is the 380 comfort. Gone that, they better find something else or they are in real troubles.
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cpd
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 8:37 pm

AA777223 wrote:
Aquila3 wrote:
emiratesdriver wrote:
Airbazar..



Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.


Tell me a reason why one should fly Emirates without the A380 (in Y).
Without them EK will be an airline like all the others, and quite an average one, I would say.

I think the better question is who wants to fly EK in J without the A380. Their J product is incredibly subpar on the 777. It has always amazed me how much people gush over EK in J, with that nasty 2-3-2 angled lie flat. Ugh...


Angled seat in J? It was straight on the planes I flew in... maybe there was a switch I didn’t find.

It was a very comfortable seat as well.

I previously flew in the A380 J, the 777 seat was less private, but more comfortable.

In economy I had a 777 3-4-3 that seemed like it had a tiny bit more leg room than the A380, the seat was slightly more comfortable too. Might have been also that the comparison A380 was A6-EDD, an old one. They do vary notably from old to new.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 8:54 pm

lightsaber wrote:
airbazar wrote:
emiratesdriver wrote:
Airbazar..



Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.


Those are 2 different things. The A380 is still the most fuel efficient way to transport 500 passengers in relative comfort, over 5000nm. If EK can't fill all the seats, that's not the A380's problem.
The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.

No.

The A380 is more cost effective to transport a passenger 5000nm thanks to efficiencies moving so many people at once. It used a tiny amount more fuel than a 77W. So unless you think the 787-10, A358, A350-1000, and 779 are totally botched, it is the wrong fleet mix. Recall the A388 losses floor space in EK's configuration for fa rest. Other aircraft use the crown. SQ sacrifices cargo for crew rest.

Where the A380 thrives is very high premium markets. Until the 779 arrives. At that point the profit per flight, with or without the network effect, shifts to the large Boeing.

EK is no longer the boogyman. They ran out of prime time (most profitable) slots at DXB. FZ only works on a few routes without connections. DWC cannot be expanded without EK profits as the subsidize Dubai (not the other way around).

I've posted for years the way to compete against the ME3 is to bypass them. IST/SAW (TK/Pegasus)
and ADD (ET) have started. It amazes me that after so long India hasn't built the infrastructure and modified policy and taxes to be the hub. Meh...

EK's best years are in the rearview mirror. Cest la vie. Eventually QR and EY will have to adopt reality which will ease EK's plight. Jet's shutdown will provide perhaps 15 months of relief. But then, as better run (more efficient) competition becomes established, it will become tougher for EK.

Lightsaber

so what EXACTLY is the A380's Yield at EK? what is the Load factor and Break even? If you don't know that? Then you can't say JACK!!
 
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 10:06 pm

Aquila3 wrote:
But even for people that seldom fly, they like EK because of the 380. They identify EK with the 380. Or do you think they like to be crammed 10 ab. on a 777 or spending 2+ hours on a bus plus another hour walking while switching at DXB? I am not saying that it will be always like that, but without 380 there will be better alternatives to EK. I have flown to PK with QR recently. Better hub, better plane that the old stinky EK 777, better price....
TK has a ton of options for near East, is a Star, better food and booze, should I go on? The only advantage I can see for EK flying Y is the 380 comfort. Gone that, they better find something else or they are in real troubles.


But the question in the end is if they can charge more than the competition (TK, QR) for the comfort of economy on the A380. Or if they can even charge more than they'd be able to when operating the 777. For Y passengers, especially infrequent flyers, the A380 might sway a decision if the price is the same, but if a $10 price difference gives the competitor the sale, they're not really gaining much of an advantage by offering a wider seat.
 
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 10:29 pm

Aquila3 wrote:
ASA wrote:
Aquila3 wrote:
Tell me a reason why one should fly Emirates without the A380 (in Y).
Without them EK will be an airline like all the others, and quite an average one, I would say.


I would say, either you haven't flown the average ones, or you haven't flown EK ...

Ask yourself which came first ... EK's success or the A380s? There lies the answer

I do not know what you mean.
I am back from DXB from just a couple of days.
I fly my 20 or 30 roundtrips a year, and I do my comparisons. Until couple of years ago EU to Asia for me was almost always EK. I have flown all the average ones that I could think of including the US3.
But even for people that seldom fly, they like EK because of the 380. They identify EK with the 380. Or do you think they like to be crammed 10 ab. on a 777 or spending 2+ hours on a bus plus another hour walking while switching at DXB? I am not saying that it will be always like that, but without 380 there will be better alternatives to EK. I have flown to PK with QR recently. Better hub, better plane that the old stinky EK 777, better price....
TK has a ton of options for near East, is a Star, better food and booze, should I go on? The only advantage I can see for EK flying Y is the 380 comfort. Gone that, they better find something else or they are in real troubles.


Hope you didn't forget that QR is also retiring their small fleet of A380s during the next decade. And QR's 777s are now mostly 10 abreast.
 
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 11:37 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
airbazar wrote:

Those are 2 different things. The A380 is still the most fuel efficient way to transport 500 passengers in relative comfort, over 5000nm. If EK can't fill all the seats, that's not the A380's problem.
The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.

No.

The A380 is more cost effective to transport a passenger 5000nm thanks to efficiencies moving so many people at once. It used a tiny amount more fuel than a 77W. So unless you think the 787-10, A358, A350-1000, and 779 are totally botched, it is the wrong fleet mix. Recall the A388 losses floor space in EK's configuration for fa rest. Other aircraft use the crown. SQ sacrifices cargo for crew rest.

Where the A380 thrives is very high premium markets. Until the 779 arrives. At that point the profit per flight, with or without the network effect, shifts to the large Boeing.

EK is no longer the boogyman. They ran out of prime time (most profitable) slots at DXB. FZ only works on a few routes without connections. DWC cannot be expanded without EK profits as the subsidize Dubai (not the other way around).

I've posted for years the way to compete against the ME3 is to bypass them. IST/SAW (TK/Pegasus)
and ADD (ET) have started. It amazes me that after so long India hasn't built the infrastructure and modified policy and taxes to be the hub. Meh...

EK's best years are in the rearview mirror. Cest la vie. Eventually QR and EY will have to adopt reality which will ease EK's plight. Jet's shutdown will provide perhaps 15 months of relief. But then, as better run (more efficient) competition becomes established, it will become tougher for EK.

Lightsaber

so what EXACTLY is the A380's Yield at EK? what is the Load factor and Break even? If you don't know that? Then you can't say JACK!!

We know EK has had several declining years of profits. We know the costs per aircraft. If course none of us here know EK's yield difference per aircraft. BE was previously posted as 83%. If you have a better estimate, please post the numbers.

I'm certain the way to out compete the ME3 is to bypass them. E.g., PER-LHR ceases sharing revenue with EK. The A321LR, 789, A359 will allow more bypass and premium always prefers a direct flight. We have another thread on QF's project sunrise going forward.

Before 2017, you will find thousands of my posts praising EK. Then my tone changed. ISL, ADD, and bypass have impacted EK.

Emirates will thrive, they will never again be the dominating airline they were. Cest la vie.

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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Thu May 09, 2019 11:45 pm

ScottB wrote:
Aquila3 wrote:
But even for people that seldom fly, they like EK because of the 380. They identify EK with the 380. Or do you think they like to be crammed 10 ab. on a 777 or spending 2+ hours on a bus plus another hour walking while switching at DXB? I am not saying that it will be always like that, but without 380 there will be better alternatives to EK. I have flown to PK with QR recently. Better hub, better plane that the old stinky EK 777, better price....
TK has a ton of options for near East, is a Star, better food and booze, should I go on? The only advantage I can see for EK flying Y is the 380 comfort. Gone that, they better find something else or they are in real troubles.


But the question in the end is if they can charge more than the competition (TK, QR) for the comfort of economy on the A380. Or if they can even charge more than they'd be able to when operating the 777. For Y passengers, especially infrequent flyers, the A380 might sway a decision if the price is the same, but if a $10 price difference gives the competitor the sale, they're not really gaining much of an advantage by offering a wider seat.

I would like to rephrase. Passengers who are willing to pay more fly Y+, J, F, or a business jet.

I believe the high production rates of ULR business jets are hurting all F. Why deal with other people when a Global 7500 gets you everywhere. Faster.

Y is price comparison. I believe EK has exceptional advertising that nets them a small premium. But too small to justify a cost disadvantage.

As I just posted, direct flights have higher yield. For example, CGK will soon finally have a heavier duty runway for more direct flights to Europe.

EK is good, but effectively a legacy now.

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lutfi
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Fri May 10, 2019 12:35 am

EK still gets a yield premium I understand on 'underserved routes' like Khartoum.
 
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Fri May 10, 2019 1:16 am

strfyr51 wrote:
so what EXACTLY is the A380's Yield at EK? what is the Load factor and Break even? If you don't know that? Then you can't say JACK!!


Hi Jack

Can you let us all know the answer as you seem to know ?

Hugs and kisses
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Fri May 10, 2019 3:03 am

emiratesdriver wrote:
And....get rid of the excess 70 or so “very profitable” A380 profit makers in favour of something a bit less comfy.

DL747400 wrote:
Yes, higher oil prices are hitting them EK harder than others, especially with their large fleet of fuel sucking 4-engined A380s. Perhaps sharply lower profit is a result of ineffective inventory management and overcapacity? Are we seeing the levels to which EK has had to lower fares in recent months in order to fill empty seats?

airbazar wrote:
The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.

lightsaber wrote:
Do recall this is partially due to the failed Trent PIP comparing to a very successful series of GE-90 PIPs. So not completely Apples to Apples. But that is why aircraft and engines must be PIPed and volume pays for PIPs.

I too think a lot of this is about EK's reliance on the A380, and EK's inability to get Airbus and the engine makers to improve the A380's economics so it could keep pace as 77W, A350, and 787 came on to the scene with great economics, great flexibility and great range.

STC dumped the GP engine for the RR with a promise for a PIP and a hope for a NEO, and in the end the PIP was a disappointment and the NEO never materialized.

In the end the A380 Plus was akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Now, even after dumping 39 A380 orders STC is still on the hook for 14 more and already saying he can't find profitable routes for them.

Seems likely to me it will take EK a long time to rebalance the fleet, and STC may not have a long time.

Oh well, if nothing else, at least DWC is a great place to park excess A380s...
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zeke
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Fri May 10, 2019 3:36 am

Instead of blaming the aircraft people need to understand how EK grew.

Essentially EK got to where it is today by taking market share from other airlines with lower prices, and accepting slightly lower yields (margin) with more volume. Look at Europe/Australia traffic EK took away around 20% of traffic from QF and SQ, and 10% from MH and TG. Those airlines hurt a lot in the process (contracted), there was not a significant increase in growth in passenger numbers.

Now EK is finding itself a victim of the same strategy with excess capacity from other carriers in the region taking away EK passengers, they are reducing yields more to keep the load factors.

Reducing volume is not going to help, the yield has already been reduced through competition.

TK will repeat the same cycle as EK had, and SQ before that in a race to the bottom.

But the aim EK, and SQ before that is not to look at those businesses in isolation. Both are responsible for a significant kick to the GDP through the tourism and business they bring to their cities.

Reducing the number of passengers visiting DXB using smaller aircraft will hurt many businesses in the city. A strategic view needs to be taken.
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NTLDaz
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Fri May 10, 2019 4:22 am

zeke wrote:
Instead of blaming the aircraft people need to understand how EK grew.

Essentially EK got to where it is today by taking market share from other airlines with lower prices, and accepting slightly lower yields (margin) with more volume. Look at Europe/Australia traffic EK took away around 20% of traffic from QF and SQ, and 10% from MH and TG. Those airlines hurt a lot in the process (contracted), there was not a significant increase in growth in passenger numbers.

Now EK is finding itself a victim of the same strategy with excess capacity from other carriers in the region taking away EK passengers, they are reducing yields more to keep the load factors.

Reducing volume is not going to help, the yield has already been reduced through competition.

TK will repeat the same cycle as EK had, and SQ before that in a race to the bottom.

But the aim EK, and SQ before that is not to look at those businesses in isolation. Both are responsible for a significant kick to the GDP through the tourism and business they bring to their cities.

Reducing the number of passengers visiting DXB using smaller aircraft will hurt many businesses in the city. A strategic view needs to be taken.


Indeed. EK is a vehicle to grow Dubai - not a vanity project. Would Dubai be one of the most visited cities in the world without what EK has become ? I doubt it. Same may apply to Singapore and SQ.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Fri May 10, 2019 12:00 pm

zeke wrote:
...
Reducing the number of passengers visiting DXB using smaller aircraft will hurt many businesses in the city. A strategic view needs to be taken.


On same note flying empty VLAs will also hurt airline and economy. Question is whether a Sixth Freedom carrier can prop up an entire country. Probably not.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Fri May 10, 2019 12:36 pm

zeke wrote:
Instead of blaming the aircraft people need to understand how EK grew.

Essentially EK got to where it is today by taking market share from other airlines with lower prices, and accepting slightly lower yields (margin) with more volume. Look at Europe/Australia traffic EK took away around 20% of traffic from QF and SQ, and 10% from MH and TG. Those airlines hurt a lot in the process (contracted), there was not a significant increase in growth in passenger numbers.

Now EK is finding itself a victim of the same strategy with excess capacity from other carriers in the region taking away EK passengers, they are reducing yields more to keep the load factors.

Reducing volume is not going to help, the yield has already been reduced through competition.

TK will repeat the same cycle as EK had, and SQ before that in a race to the bottom.

But the aim EK, and SQ before that is not to look at those businesses in isolation. Both are responsible for a significant kick to the GDP through the tourism and business they bring to their cities.

Reducing the number of passengers visiting DXB using smaller aircraft will hurt many businesses in the city. A strategic view needs to be taken.

I agree with your summary, but would add:
1. EK was far more efficient than MH and many others. By creating a 4 bank structure, they were able to connect to the world with the top aircraft utilization, minimizing costs.
2. In the past, EK worked on having the best connection experience. It used to be a very pleasant 2 hour shopping excursion. Now... Not so good.
3. TK will augment O&D (high yield) with connections. In a fare war, high O&D hubs have all the advantages if costs are controlled.

EK must manage for costs. I agree with your volume premise, but it is volume*profit. If volume is cut 20% to increase profit per unit 50%, that is for the better.

I still believe bypass via business jet or direct flights is killing EK's premium yield. E.g., PER-LHR and SIN-JFK are two flashy routes drawing away the top paying customers. Once project sunrise initiates, EK's Australian yield will drop further. One big hole that will be filled is when Jakarta receives a runway ready for a MTOW 777. This will change the economics to the EU.

Transportation has always been, like any other opperations business, a race to the bottom. Canals, shipping, railroads, trucking companies, and airlines have always competed on cost.

EK identified a need for a wayport hub a la SIN or HKG. They identified a need for a discount J for the horde of road warriors. What they botched is the transition to lower cost road warrior transportation, Y+, and fleet composition. Not every city is a LHR ir JFK. Business jets cut F yield. They need DWC but there is not enough profit to fund it, nor will there be for decades.

EK will survive and thrive and grew Dubai to the #1 O&D for the region. They are the only hub and city to accommodate Western sensibilities (restaurants, bars, beaches, religion, supermarkets, daily dress code, port).

Personally, I think the LCCs of India building a long haul fleet should be their #1 concern. Competing against high cost and mediocre service is easy.

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airbazar
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Fri May 10, 2019 1:03 pm

lightsaber wrote:
airbazar wrote:
emiratesdriver wrote:
Airbazar..



Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.


Those are 2 different things. The A380 is still the most fuel efficient way to transport 500 passengers in relative comfort, over 5000nm. If EK can't fill all the seats, that's not the A380's problem.
The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.

No.

The A380 is more cost effective to transport a passenger 5000nm thanks to efficiencies moving so many people at once. It used a tiny amount more fuel than a 77W. So unless you think the 787-10, A358, A350-1000, and 779 are totally botched, it is the wrong fleet mix. Recall the A388 losses floor space in EK's configuration for fa rest. Other aircraft use the crown. SQ sacrifices cargo for crew rest.

Where the A380 thrives is very high premium markets. Until the 779 arrives. At that point the profit per flight, with or without the network effect, shifts to the large Boeing.


I think we're both saying the same thing. As long as they can fill 500 seats at decent yields the A380 is best. But once the competition caught up, their ego (only the biggest will do), and arrogance (no one will be able to compete with us), left them with a fleet mix that's unsuitable for today's environment.
And yes, they will be fine going forward. They just won't be experiencing the kind of growth that everyone is used to.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Fri May 10, 2019 1:24 pm

airbazar wrote:
...
I think we're both saying the same thing. As long as they can fill 500 seats at decent yields the A380 is best. But once the competition caught up, their ego (only the biggest will do), and arrogance (no one will be able to compete with us), left them with a fleet mix that's unsuitable for today's environment.
And yes, they will be fine going forward. They just won't be experiencing the kind of growth that everyone is used to.


They should thank their own employees for putting them back on the right track. It doesn't matter how much money Saudis and/or Kuwaitis have, only thing matters is how many pilots and flight attendants want to work for you.
 
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Fri May 10, 2019 1:44 pm

airbazar wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
airbazar wrote:

Those are 2 different things. The A380 is still the most fuel efficient way to transport 500 passengers in relative comfort, over 5000nm. If EK can't fill all the seats, that's not the A380's problem.
The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.

No.

The A380 is more cost effective to transport a passenger 5000nm thanks to efficiencies moving so many people at once. It used a tiny amount more fuel than a 77W. So unless you think the 787-10, A358, A350-1000, and 779 are totally botched, it is the wrong fleet mix. Recall the A388 losses floor space in EK's configuration for fa rest. Other aircraft use the crown. SQ sacrifices cargo for crew rest.

Where the A380 thrives is very high premium markets. Until the 779 arrives. At that point the profit per flight, with or without the network effect, shifts to the large Boeing.


I think we're both saying the same thing. As long as they can fill 500 seats at decent yields the A380 is best. But once the competition caught up, their ego (only the biggest will do), and arrogance (no one will be able to compete with us), left them with a fleet mix that's unsuitable for today's environment.
And yes, they will be fine going forward. They just won't be experiencing the kind of growth that everyone is used to.

I think we are saying the same thing. Make no mistake, I see a need at EK for the A380. I just believe there would be more profit rationalizing to the routes with high premium (3-class, should be 4- class with Y+) and high density routes (small J, Y+, and pack em in Y). So we can agree the mix is off. At least with the A350 and A330NEO order, some sanity will prevail. The 779 is an excellent fit IMHO.

I actually expect a small contraction. To grow EK needs more banked flights and there simply isn't the money for DWC.

Lightsaber
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ojas
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Fri May 10, 2019 3:40 pm

zeke wrote:
Instead of blaming the aircraft people need to understand how EK grew.

Essentially EK got to where it is today by taking market share from other airlines with lower prices, and accepting slightly lower yields (margin) with more volume. Look at Europe/Australia traffic EK took away around 20% of traffic from QF and SQ, and 10% from MH and TG. Those airlines hurt a lot in the process (contracted), there was not a significant increase in growth in passenger numbers.

Now EK is finding itself a victim of the same strategy with excess capacity from other carriers in the region taking away EK passengers, they are reducing yields more to keep the load factors.

Reducing volume is not going to help, the yield has already been reduced through competition.

TK will repeat the same cycle as EK had, and SQ before that in a race to the bottom.

But the aim EK, and SQ before that is not to look at those businesses in isolation. Both are responsible for a significant kick to the GDP through the tourism and business they bring to their cities.

Reducing the number of passengers visiting DXB using smaller aircraft will hurt many businesses in the city. A strategic view needs to be taken.


By far one of the most sensible post I have come across whilst discussing Emirates; ever since I have joined A.net in 2008. :bigthumbsup:
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Galwayman
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Fri May 10, 2019 3:49 pm

EK not getting 787 , best news ever for loyal EK customers hurrah ...
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Emirates announces -69% drop in net profits

Fri May 10, 2019 4:09 pm

Galwayman wrote:
EK not getting 787 , best news ever for loyal EK customers hurrah ...


Source please?

This is the second time on the thread but no one has bought any actual proofs of it. There seems to be no news at all either way.

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