paolomilano330
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Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Thu May 09, 2019 11:33 pm

Wow, a very lengthy reveal from Aviation Analyst of what's happening at Air Italy. It seems the airline will ditch plans for 787 Dreamliners and expand with more A330s instead, significant news. There is also more revealed about the short-haul fleet, and the service. Even about the A220.

Full article: https://aviationanalyst.co.uk/2019/05/0 ... air-italy/

The airline blame Boeing groudning and also 787 Dreamliner delays, another unhappy Boeing customer?
 
777-500er
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 12:07 am

Air Italy is all smokes and mirrors. No real plan or strategy. They are justifying their seasonal approach to route planning as a novice business strategy in the airline business. The India market sudden exit is a clear sign of having no clue of how to manage an airline.
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 12:10 am

paolomilano330 wrote:
The airline blame Boeing groudning and also 787 Dreamliner delays, another unhappy Boeing customer?

Weren't they going to get their 787s from QR? If that were the case then I don't think "delays" would have been the real reason.

777-500er wrote:
Air Italy is all smokes and mirrors. No real plan or strategy. They are justifying their seasonal approach to route planning as a novice business strategy in the airline business. The India market sudden exit is a clear sign of having no clue of how to manage an airline.

Makes me wonder if there will even be an Air Italy in one or two years.
 
mullac30
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 12:25 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
paolomilano330 wrote:
The airline blame Boeing groudning and also 787 Dreamliner delays, another unhappy Boeing customer?

Weren't they going to get their 787s from QR? If that were the case then I don't think "delays" would have been the real reason..


He mentions that the problem lies in the delivery delays in QRs 789s, needed to cascade the 788s to Air Italy.
 
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madpropsyo
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 12:27 am

Startup Airline with terrible business plan decides it can't afford brand new widebodies. News at 11.
 
ewt340
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 12:35 am

The MAX grounding probably plays a big part in this decision. Presumably they would want to go all Boeing with B737MAX and B787-8.
Now that MAX is grounded. They either have to use B737-800 OR change to A320/A321neo. And if they do, it would be useless to operate the mix of A320/A321neo + B787.

Also, I'm pretty sure acquiring A330-200 would be way cheaper compared to B787-8.

A320/A321neo and A330-200 would be a safer choice compared to B737MAX and B787-8.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 12:55 am

Air Italy won't be around to take delivery of any new aircraft, Airbus or Boeing.
 
dcajet
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 1:00 am

Folks: look at who penned this advertorial. Thank you.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
jonnyclam123
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 1:31 am

dcajet wrote:
Folks: look at who penned this advertorial. Thank you.

As soon as I saw who wrote it I immediately exited the article.
 
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NYPECO
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 1:59 am

jonnyclam123 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Folks: look at who penned this advertorial. Thank you.

As soon as I saw who wrote it I immediately exited the article.

Why is that? (Honest question, I don't know anything about that author).
 
sibibom
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 2:16 am

Akbar Al Baker will always keep us entertained. Pretty sure they will eventually go for COMAC only to diss it in a few years :p
 
FlyHPN
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 2:17 am

jonnyclam123 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Folks: look at who penned this advertorial. Thank you.

As soon as I saw who wrote it I immediately exited the article.


:rotfl:
 
B747forever
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 2:17 am

NYPECO wrote:
jonnyclam123 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Folks: look at who penned this advertorial. Thank you.

As soon as I saw who wrote it I immediately exited the article.

Why is that? (Honest question, I don't know anything about that author).


viewtopic.php?t=1387079
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
airzona11
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 2:43 am

ewt340 wrote:
The MAX grounding probably plays a big part in this decision. Presumably they would want to go all Boeing with B737MAX and B787-8.
Now that MAX is grounded. They either have to use B737-800 OR change to A320/A321neo. And if they do, it would be useless to operate the mix of A320/A321neo + B787.

Also, I'm pretty sure acquiring A330-200 would be way cheaper compared to B787-8.

A320/A321neo and A330-200 would be a safer choice compared to B737MAX and B787-8.


A320 family and 787 is perfectly feasible. Air Italy is a hand me down airline on the widebody side. They already have Max8s. They already have A330s. They are getting the planes via QR.

This might as well be a satirical article. Airbus and Boeing do have large QR order books, but goodness AAB is a pain.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 3:27 am

I started reading this article with a lot of scepticism. The title is not reflecting Air Italy's reality. The reference to the Air Italy and Meridiana merger into Air Italy is essentially wrong. At the corporate level, they have been one and the same airline for a while already before QR joined.
The "B787 MAX" typo is alao painful

It'a interesting though that AAB is trying to slip a major change of strategy through an article written by an amateur journalist.

Obviously they are reading airliners.net as they are trying to answer the strong criticism that I have written about their winter strategy.

A shift from B788's to A332/A333's is the first sensible move that I have seen from this airline. 13 A330's by year's end is not plausible though.

Many of us on airliners.net have been saying in chorus that they first need to build a European feeder network.
I have taken it a step further and been saying that they should build their operation up in OLB and not MXP, mirroring their hub in DOH.
Do they lose O&D from Milan by hubbing in OLB? Not if they are smart and do what Lufthansa does with the MUC hub and using LIN, MXP and even BGY, TRN, BLQ, VCE.
Hubbing in MXP closes more options than it opens up.
The holding also "owns" OLB and wages are half of what they are in the Milan area.
They would need to invest in an expansion of the infrastructure and it would become a multi-year project, but one that the regional and national governments would strongly endorse.

At the U.S. end, this would open up doors for cooperation with US carriers as they would not be competing directly.

As for switching to A220/A320, Meridiana seems to be switching between A320/B737 that they probably have pilots rated on both types already.
I don't think that it makes much sense to order too many brand new A220's, they need to keep capital costs low to afford a frequency reduction in the winter.
A fleet of 10-15 years old A320CEO's/B737NG with a dozen of used ATR72's or Q400's for regional operations would seem much more sensible.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 6:44 am

mullac30 wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
paolomilano330 wrote:
The airline blame Boeing groudning and also 787 Dreamliner delays, another unhappy Boeing customer?

Weren't they going to get their 787s from QR? If that were the case then I don't think "delays" would have been the real reason..


He mentions that the problem lies in the delivery delays in QRs 789s, needed to cascade the 788s to Air Italy.


The article mentions this indeed, and it is simply not true. QR will receive their first 789s by the end of this year as planned (or at least, they will be produced then - when QR takes delivery is a totally different matter, seeing how painfully long it takes QR to accept delivery of their A350s :bored: :old: )

Personally, I think QR doesn't want to get rid of their 788s yet, they're great money makers for them, and rather want to get rid of their remaining A332s which are getting old for QR standards. And I also think it makes sense for Air Italy to keep the A330s instead of transitioning to 787s so soon.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 9:02 am

And Boeing says..."who?".
 
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Polot
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 9:15 am

The whole 787 delay thing is just a cover story for the fact that their intercontinental expansion has not been as successful as originally envisioned and there really isn’t a need to turn over and rapidly expand the wide body fleet anymore.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 9:21 am

Air Italy certainly have style and social media wrapped up. They are all over instagram and clearly getting coverage in the airline press too, their branding looks great and the soft product seems of a high quality, with a. little Italian style. If that translates to good loads with decent yields is another question. There is no doubt that they got a very soft ride for the non lie-flat, non-aisle access J class product, from the blogger. Their network doesn't seem to make much sense or offer many connections.

As I understand their fleet, the 767 fleet was replaced by hand-me-down A330s from QR and the 737MAXs are also from QR's order. IT maybe that QR only owns 49%, but we don't know what Air Italy pay to lease them. It might well be 'market rate', but Im guessing market rate for someone like IAG, easyJet, low risk airlines. Not charter operators transforming into a scheduled long-haul airline. I really don't buy that they are totally independent. Even their uniforms are QR with a different scarf and hat pin.
 
yabeweb
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 9:44 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
And Boeing says..."who?".

If they keep sayin who, sooner or later people will be like.. Boeing who?

Losing a customer is never good, no matter how a small customer is, especially now it is bad timing for Boeing.

Will boeing survive ? YES, is it smart to have a who cares attitude when losing customer? Big fat NO.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 9:47 am

BrianDromey wrote:
Air Italy certainly have style and social media wrapped up. They are all over instagram and clearly getting coverage in the airline press too, their branding looks great and the soft product seems of a high quality, with a. little Italian style. If that translates to good loads with decent yields is another question. There is no doubt that they got a very soft ride for the non lie-flat, non-aisle access J class product, from the blogger. Their network doesn't seem to make much sense or offer many connections.

As I understand their fleet, the 767 fleet was replaced by hand-me-down A330s from QR and the 737MAXs are also from QR's order. IT maybe that QR only owns 49%, but we don't know what Air Italy pay to lease them. It might well be 'market rate', but Im guessing market rate for someone like IAG, easyJet, low risk airlines. Not charter operators transforming into a scheduled long-haul airline. I really don't buy that they are totally independent. Even their uniforms are QR with a different scarf and hat pin.


Meridiana had their own A330's from before the merger with charter operator Air Italy that operated B767's.

Air Italy may run all the marketing they want, they don't have a network so it's like Norwegian just even more disorganised.

AAB has an opportunity but he needs to grab it right.
So far, they haven't done much right.
The only long haul that they should be launching is HND/NRT. They can fly break even in off-season and make money in the summer, even with a limited network. Once they start having a network they can dream bigger. I don't know if bilaterals allow it though.
That's about all the free advice that I will give though.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 9:59 am

ewt340 wrote:
The MAX grounding probably plays a big part in this decision. Presumably they would want to go all Boeing with B737MAX and B787-8.
Now that MAX is grounded. They either have to use B737-800 OR change to A320/A321neo. And if they do, it would be useless to operate the mix of A320/A321neo + B787.

Also, I'm pretty sure acquiring A330-200 would be way cheaper compared to B787-8.

A320/A321neo and A330-200 would be a safer choice compared to B737MAX and B787-8.

That makes zero sense. Operating airbus narrow body and Boeing widebody is no less feasible than all Boeing or all Airbus.
 
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Polot
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 10:02 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
BrianDromey wrote:
Air Italy certainly have style and social media wrapped up. They are all over instagram and clearly getting coverage in the airline press too, their branding looks great and the soft product seems of a high quality, with a. little Italian style. If that translates to good loads with decent yields is another question. There is no doubt that they got a very soft ride for the non lie-flat, non-aisle access J class product, from the blogger. Their network doesn't seem to make much sense or offer many connections.

As I understand their fleet, the 767 fleet was replaced by hand-me-down A330s from QR and the 737MAXs are also from QR's order. IT maybe that QR only owns 49%, but we don't know what Air Italy pay to lease them. It might well be 'market rate', but Im guessing market rate for someone like IAG, easyJet, low risk airlines. Not charter operators transforming into a scheduled long-haul airline. I really don't buy that they are totally independent. Even their uniforms are QR with a different scarf and hat pin.


Meridiana had their own A330's from before the merger with charter operator Air Italy that operated B767's.

Air Italy may run all the marketing they want, they don't have a network so it's like Norwegian just even more disorganised.

AAB has an opportunity but he needs to grab it right.
So far, they haven't done much right.
The only long haul that they should be launching is HND/NRT. They can fly break even in off-season and make money in the summer, even with a limited network. Once they start having a network they can dream bigger. I don't know if bilaterals allow it though.
That's about all the free advice that I will give though.

The problem is the (unspoken) belief from AAB and QR is that by renaming the airline Air Italy and launching some intercontinental routes Italy would embrace Air Italy as the new Italian flag carrier and drop Alitalia like a hot potato. Then Air Italy could fill the vacuum.

Of course that is a fundamental misunderstanding as to why Alitalia is kept alive (the main motivation is to keep the jobs, not the network although that is certainly important too) stemming from cultural reasons. AAB grew an airline with significant government backing that was strongly interested in aviation and using it as a means to put Doha/Qatar on the map. He doesn’t know how to grow a new airline in an already competitive local market that doesn’t need to use aviation to make itself known.
 
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Slash787
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 10:06 am

Weren't the B787 going to be leased from Qatar Airways once they got their B787-9?
 
Delta28L
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 12:25 pm

Good Qatar can dump all their A330s on Air Italy and use the 787 to cover the A330 routes
 
spannacomo
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 4:58 pm

I think a startup company fighting to develop a market from zero against a well known company (alitalia) only able to stay afloat thanks to billions of italian taxpayers euros should deserve a better treatment on a forum of aviation fans. Unless you are buying the US3 narrative that makes IG a way to shortcut the agreements between qatar and US on matter of aviation, which would really astonish me. Why are air italy not getting any sympathy is beyond me. They are a small company, they are trying to prove that milan is a viable aviation hub, they are fighting against most of the world largest companies, and all they have is the support from a minority shareholder company. They should be regarded with some respect at least, but I do not see much of that. Why?
 
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Aisak
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 5:18 pm

Delta28L wrote:
Good Qatar can dump all their A330s on Air Italy and use the 787 to cover the A330 routes


As per Wiki, QR has 7 332 and 13 333. I fear it’s way too much for such a small airline.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 5:26 pm

It’s blatantly obvious the BS - if 789 deliveries were such an issue, A330s wouldn’t be able to be transferred either as QR would need to keep those, too. 788 or A330, QR is down an aircraft without a 789 delivery.
 
ScottB
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 5:48 pm

spannacomo wrote:
I think a startup company fighting to develop a market from zero against a well known company (alitalia) only able to stay afloat thanks to billions of italian taxpayers euros should deserve a better treatment on a forum of aviation fans.


Because a company being subsidized by a large sovereign wealth fund (built on sales of petroleum) is better than being subsidized by taxes why?

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I have taken it a step further and been saying that they should build their operation up in OLB and not MXP, mirroring their hub in DOH.


Wait, what? Hubbing in a city of 60,000 people where the traffic is overwhelmingly vacationers on ULCCs and charters? That's insane. Milan is the most important center of Italian industry and finance; the key problem is that its air travel market won't support a hub at MXP when the most valuable short-haul traffic overwhelmingly uses LIN. That doesn't make OLB a better hub!

Waterbomber2 wrote:
At the U.S. end, this would open up doors for cooperation with US carriers as they would not be competing directly.


The US carriers wouldn't cooperate because they already have joint-venture partners with large, well-connected hubs. AMS & CDG for DL (and FCO with AZ for the time being), LHR & MAD for AA, and FRA, MUC, ZRH, BRU, & VIE for UA. Something bizarre like ORD-OLB-VCE would still compete with connections via the hubs of joint venture carriers.
 
ewt340
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 7:17 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
The MAX grounding probably plays a big part in this decision. Presumably they would want to go all Boeing with B737MAX and B787-8.
Now that MAX is grounded. They either have to use B737-800 OR change to A320/A321neo. And if they do, it would be useless to operate the mix of A320/A321neo + B787.

Also, I'm pretty sure acquiring A330-200 would be way cheaper compared to B787-8.

A320/A321neo and A330-200 would be a safer choice compared to B737MAX and B787-8.

That makes zero sense. Operating airbus narrow body and Boeing widebody is no less feasible than all Boeing or all Airbus.


It make sense because MAX8 is currently being grounded. Hence they wouldn't be able to operate MAX + B787 combo.

What they left with is B737-800 and B787 which would work until they need to replace the B737-800 with MAX8.
Meanwhile, they could do A320/A321 + A330 without any problems, now or in the future.

The other factor is pricing and the fact that Qatar could unload all their A330-200/-300 in upcoming years to Air Italy.

Qatar also have 40 A320neo and 10 A321LR on order to replace their older A320. Those old A320/A321 could be transfer in tandem with their old A330-200/-300 to Air Italy.
Last edited by ewt340 on Fri May 10, 2019 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ewt340
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 7:24 pm

airzona11 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
The MAX grounding probably plays a big part in this decision. Presumably they would want to go all Boeing with B737MAX and B787-8.
Now that MAX is grounded. They either have to use B737-800 OR change to A320/A321neo. And if they do, it would be useless to operate the mix of A320/A321neo + B787.

Also, I'm pretty sure acquiring A330-200 would be way cheaper compared to B787-8.

A320/A321neo and A330-200 would be a safer choice compared to B737MAX and B787-8.


A320 family and 787 is perfectly feasible. Air Italy is a hand me down airline on the widebody side. They already have Max8s. They already have A330s. They are getting the planes via QR.

This might as well be a satirical article. Airbus and Boeing do have large QR order books, but goodness AAB is a pain.


Feasible, but not Optimal for such small airlines. Operating all Boeing or all Airbus would be way more logical for such airlines.
Besides, they grew too fast, acquiring expensive aircraft like B787-8 would be problematic. Leasing and acquiring second hand A330-200 would be way cheaper.

Also, maybe Qatar wanted to keep their B787-8 after all. They just need to unload all of their A330-200 and A330-300 to Air Italy to make the deal sweeter.
Don't forget that Qatar operate All Airbus Narrow-body. These older aircraft could be transferred to Air Italy in tandem with A330.
 
spannacomo
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 7:55 pm

ScottB wrote:
spannacomo wrote:
I think a startup company fighting to develop a market from zero against a well known company (alitalia) only able to stay afloat thanks to billions of italian taxpayers euros should deserve a better treatment on a forum of aviation fans.


Because a company being subsidized by a large sovereign wealth fund (built on sales of petroleum) is better than being subsidized by taxes why?


Qatar only owns a minority stake so they are not subsidizing anything, what you claim is the same propaganda the US3 claim because they do not like competition.
 
spannacomo
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 8:03 pm

ScottB wrote:

Milan is the most important center of Italian industry and finance; the key problem is that its air travel market won't support a hub at MXP when the most valuable short-haul traffic overwhelmingly uses LIN.

Yet LH have plans to take over AZ and replace it with their LC branch EW in LIN, how is LIN short-haul traffic so valuable? And AZ who has 3/4 of the total traffic in LIN are not making any money there either.
 
airzona11
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 8:39 pm

ewt340 wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
The MAX grounding probably plays a big part in this decision. Presumably they would want to go all Boeing with B737MAX and B787-8.
Now that MAX is grounded. They either have to use B737-800 OR change to A320/A321neo. And if they do, it would be useless to operate the mix of A320/A321neo + B787.

Also, I'm pretty sure acquiring A330-200 would be way cheaper compared to B787-8.

A320/A321neo and A330-200 would be a safer choice compared to B737MAX and B787-8.


A320 family and 787 is perfectly feasible. Air Italy is a hand me down airline on the widebody side. They already have Max8s. They already have A330s. They are getting the planes via QR.

This might as well be a satirical article. Airbus and Boeing do have large QR order books, but goodness AAB is a pain.


Feasible, but not Optimal for such small airlines. Operating all Boeing or all Airbus would be way more logical for such airlines.
Besides, they grew too fast, acquiring expensive aircraft like B787-8 would be problematic. Leasing and acquiring second hand A330-200 would be way cheaper.

Also, maybe Qatar wanted to keep their B787-8 after all. They just need to unload all of their A330-200 and A330-300 to Air Italy to make the deal sweeter.
Don't forget that Qatar operate All Airbus Narrow-body. These older aircraft could be transferred to Air Italy in tandem with A330.


I guess my question is if efficiency mattered, they would never have operated 737s alongside A330s. Their entire fleet is subleased from QR. I think this is all conjecture from AAB to pare the fleet, as some have mentioned, and I agree, some aggressive growth plans.
 
CALMSP
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 8:45 pm

wasn't there just an article about QR subleasing a 787 to Royal Air Maroc?
 
strfyr51
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 8:48 pm

you guys are taking a pretty strong attitude, Having worked at start-ups? Acquiring airplanes is a pretty serious business! Maybe they can't get the B787's because they aren't AVAILABLE!! And? At this point? They can't wait much longer! So they'll have to take what they can GET! and Obviously? The A330 was as good as they got... What the hell? Any Bone with meat on it is ok for them at this point! They might even make some noise! wait and SEE!
 
N809FR
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 10:01 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
you guys are taking a pretty strong attitude, Having worked at start-ups? Acquiring airplanes is a pretty serious business! Maybe they can't get the B787's because they aren't AVAILABLE!! And? At this point? They can't wait much longer! So they'll have to take what they can GET! and Obviously? The A330 was as good as they got... What the hell? Any Bone with meat on it is ok for them at this point! They might even make some noise! wait and SEE!


Are you completely oblivious to the fact that they are getting their 787-8’s from QR and not direct from Boeing?
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Fri May 10, 2019 10:21 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
The MAX grounding probably plays a big part in this decision. Presumably they would want to go all Boeing with B737MAX and B787-8.
Now that MAX is grounded. They either have to use B737-800 OR change to A320/A321neo. And if they do, it would be useless to operate the mix of A320/A321neo + B787.

Also, I'm pretty sure acquiring A330-200 would be way cheaper compared to B787-8.

A320/A321neo and A330-200 would be a safer choice compared to B737MAX and B787-8.

That makes zero sense. Operating airbus narrow body and Boeing widebody is no less feasible than all Boeing or all Airbus.


It make sense because MAX8 is currently being grounded. Hence they wouldn't be able to operate MAX + B787 combo.

What they left with is B737-800 and B787 which would work until they need to replace the B737-800 with MAX8.
Meanwhile, they could do A320/A321 + A330 without any problems, now or in the future.

The other factor is pricing and the fact that Qatar could unload all their A330-200/-300 in upcoming years to Air Italy.

Qatar also have 40 A320neo and 10 A321LR on order to replace their older A320. Those old A320/A321 could be transfer in tandem with their old A330-200/-300 to Air Italy.

You’re sfill making zero sense
 
sxf24
Posts: 858
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Sat May 11, 2019 12:56 am

There are no 787 delivery delays, so we know that claim is irrelevant.
 
ewt340
Posts: 783
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Sun May 12, 2019 10:18 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
That makes zero sense. Operating airbus narrow body and Boeing widebody is no less feasible than all Boeing or all Airbus.


It make sense because MAX8 is currently being grounded. Hence they wouldn't be able to operate MAX + B787 combo.

What they left with is B737-800 and B787 which would work until they need to replace the B737-800 with MAX8.
Meanwhile, they could do A320/A321 + A330 without any problems, now or in the future.

The other factor is pricing and the fact that Qatar could unload all their A330-200/-300 in upcoming years to Air Italy.

Qatar also have 40 A320neo and 10 A321LR on order to replace their older A320. Those old A320/A321 could be transfer in tandem with their old A330-200/-300 to Air Italy.

You’re sfill making zero sense


Qatar tend to operate younger aircraft, they have lots of A320neo and A321neo on order to replace their current A320 and A321. In upcoming years when those Neo arrived they would gradually "retiring" the old A320 and A321.
Some of the aircraft are going to be between 10-15 years of age after 2020 when those replacement arrived.

Those aircrafts could transferred it to Air Italy since they would need cheaper aircraft to operate.
Same goes for their A330 which are way older, even though those are leased, they could just expand the lease for couple more years in return for cheaper prices and transferred those to Air Italy.

You do realized Qatar control 49% of stakes in Air Italy right?
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Sun May 12, 2019 11:40 am

This is being driven as a "push" from Qatar. Quotes from al-Baker:

"Qatar Airways will replace all its Airbus A330s with Airbus A350s and Boeing 787 Dreamliners in the next three years, group chief executive HE Akbar al-Baker has said"

"From 2024, our fleet will consist of Boeing 777s and 787s and Airbus A350s and A321s. At that time, there will not be any more Airbus A320s and A319s in our fleet,” the group CEO revealed"

https://www.gulf-times.com/story/631270 ... s-in-3-yea
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 413
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Sun May 12, 2019 1:09 pm

ScottB wrote:
spannacomo wrote:
I think a startup company fighting to develop a market from zero against a well known company (alitalia) only able to stay afloat thanks to billions of italian taxpayers euros should deserve a better treatment on a forum of aviation fans.


Because a company being subsidized by a large sovereign wealth fund (built on sales of petroleum) is better than being subsidized by taxes why?

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I have taken it a step further and been saying that they should build their operation up in OLB and not MXP, mirroring their hub in DOH.


Wait, what? Hubbing in a city of 60,000 people where the traffic is overwhelmingly vacationers on ULCCs and charters? That's insane. Milan is the most important center of Italian industry and finance; the key problem is that its air travel market won't support a hub at MXP when the most valuable short-haul traffic overwhelmingly uses LIN. That doesn't make OLB a better hub!

Waterbomber2 wrote:
At the U.S. end, this would open up doors for cooperation with US carriers as they would not be competing directly.


The US carriers wouldn't cooperate because they already have joint-venture partners with large, well-connected hubs. AMS & CDG for DL (and FCO with AZ for the time being), LHR & MAD for AA, and FRA, MUC, ZRH, BRU, & VIE for UA. Something bizarre like ORD-OLB-VCE would still compete with connections via the hubs of joint venture carriers.


As has been mentionned by Spannacomo, Milan is not the high yield rainmaker that you think it is.
Milan is a relatively small city served by no less than 3 airports, with 5 additional international airports within 200km covering the neighboring city.
This is not like AMS where a single airport is serving an entire country.
Also, while Milan is the center of a rich industrial area of northern Italy, the wealth is spread over a large area and is not concentrated in Milan.

Getting to MXP from the city center is just as convenient as taking a feeder from LIN to any of the major hubs and flying long haul from there.

OLB has very little O&D outside the summer season, but it's one of 3 airports serving Sardinia, an island that sees its 1.5 million population double during the summer season thanks to its pristine beaches.
Qatar owns the Costa Smeralda resort of several luxury hotels that frequently host the jetset (although recent reports indicate that Sardinia is not letting them carry on the expansion projects that they envisioned and hence Qatar are looking to sell), that combined with the ownership of the airport company are major assets to start a hub.

Realistically, a hub for 40 shorthaul aircraft of which 10-15 turboprops together serving the many Italian airports, the southern French coastline, the Eastern Spanish coastline and Northern Africa, while covering the big airports in Northern Europe, would make the carrier the airline of choice for travel to/from the Mediterranean.
Those 40 aircraft can feed eachother and a widebody fleet of 20-30 aircraft operating in 3 waves.
Tadaaa you have Doha II right in the middle of the Mediterranean.

AZ is hubbing at the biggest Italian city, but it too is challenging given high airport costs and low yields.

Basically Air Italy can combine high seasonal O&D together with a low cost long haul year-round operation at OLB, something that they can't do in MXP.
At OLB, Air Italy have their own handling company, they pay landing fees and airport taxes to themselves, wages are the lowest in Italy, the region is ready to subsidise, the government is going to be supportive, etc...
With that low cost base, they can be very competitve on the 1-stop long haul market.

In any case, Olbia has a lot more to offer than Doha and the potential is not even close to being converted fully.

Image

http://incostasmeralda.com/en/2018/01/m ... a-in-2018/
 
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lollomz
Posts: 438
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Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Sun May 12, 2019 4:15 pm

Well, an A220 in Air Italy's livery would be nice! ;-)
[url="http://www.diecastmodelaircraft.com/collection/Lollomz"]Image[/url]
 
ewt340
Posts: 783
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Sun May 12, 2019 9:35 pm

Well, well, well, As previously mentioned, Qatar would be phasing out their A320/A321 and A330 in upcoming years. It's All Airbus for Air Italy for sure.

https://onemileatatime.com/qatar-airways-phasing-out-a330s-a320s/
 
rrbsztk
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:48 am

Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Sun May 12, 2019 9:43 pm

How feasible would it be for Air Italy to take the 6 A220 from STLC that were meant for Red Wings? I'm guessing it would me more involved than a quick switch.
 
N809FR
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:10 am

Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Sun May 12, 2019 10:00 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Well, well, well, As previously mentioned, Qatar would be phasing out their A320/A321 and A330 in upcoming years. It's All Airbus for Air Italy for sure.

https://onemileatatime.com/qatar-airways-phasing-out-a330s-a320s/


You do realize the source for this article is the same questionable one in the thread starter, right?
 
ewt340
Posts: 783
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Sun May 12, 2019 10:09 pm

N809FR wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Well, well, well, As previously mentioned, Qatar would be phasing out their A320/A321 and A330 in upcoming years. It's All Airbus for Air Italy for sure.

https://onemileatatime.com/qatar-airways-phasing-out-a330s-a320s/


You do realize the source for this article is the same questionable one in the thread starter, right?


Yeah, because an Interview with the CEO of Qatar airways are questionable sources, lol. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
N809FR
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:10 am

Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Sun May 12, 2019 10:47 pm

ewt340 wrote:
N809FR wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Well, well, well, As previously mentioned, Qatar would be phasing out their A320/A321 and A330 in upcoming years. It's All Airbus for Air Italy for sure.

https://onemileatatime.com/qatar-airways-phasing-out-a330s-a320s/


You do realize the source for this article is the same questionable one in the thread starter, right?


Yeah, because an Interview with the CEO of Qatar airways are questionable sources, lol. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


Dense, aren’t we? Al Baker never said anything of the sort, but hey, keep dreaming the dream. 787 deliveries aren’t delayed, this is merely an article stating the A330 will be leaving the QR fleet.
 
ewt340
Posts: 783
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Sun May 12, 2019 11:32 pm

N809FR wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
N809FR wrote:

You do realize the source for this article is the same questionable one in the thread starter, right?


Yeah, because an Interview with the CEO of Qatar airways are questionable sources, lol. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


Dense, aren’t we? Al Baker never said anything of the sort, but hey, keep dreaming the dream. 787 deliveries aren’t delayed, this is merely an article stating the A330 will be leaving the QR fleet.


I guess you hate facts as much as the likes of Trump https://www.gulf-times.com/story/631270/Qatar-Airways-to-replace-all-Airbus-A330s-in-3-yea?fbclid=IwAR1_iN2GYktqn4gQi5feevvU1k190-c21iSlKOazehuzz5Db9g-aPsMfs68

It's time to learn to click on an link for the source of the article you're reading. That would really help.
 
N809FR
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:10 am

Re: Air Italy Abandon Boeing for Airbus + More

Sun May 12, 2019 11:51 pm

ewt340 wrote:
N809FR wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Yeah, because an Interview with the CEO of Qatar airways are questionable sources, lol. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


Dense, aren’t we? Al Baker never said anything of the sort, but hey, keep dreaming the dream. 787 deliveries aren’t delayed, this is merely an article stating the A330 will be leaving the QR fleet.


I guess you hate facts as much as the likes of Trump https://www.gulf-times.com/story/631270/Qatar-Airways-to-replace-all-Airbus-A330s-in-3-yea?fbclid=IwAR1_iN2GYktqn4gQi5feevvU1k190-c21iSlKOazehuzz5Db9g-aPsMfs68

It's time to learn to click on an link for the source of the article you're reading. That would really help.


Where in any of the articles you’ve linked does it specifically say that the A330’s being retired from QR will go to Air Italy? Because I’ve read them all multiple times to make sure I’m not calling you dense for no reason and still don’t see anything that indicated that. You’re drawing conclusions based on a “journalist” from the thread starter

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